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Author Topic: Tupac Amaru Shakur  (Read 4278 times) Average Rating: 0
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HabteSelassie
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« on: December 24, 2011, 05:22:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The only musician perhaps as popular and widely heard across the entire world as His Honorable Bob Marley would easily have to be Tupac Shakur.  Love him or hate him, our brother 2Pac is almost universal music, practically anywhere in the world you go folks will either like or at least heard of him.  That is quite an accomplishment for an artist to gain such a wide, global audience. 

Now I prefer to listen to "conscious" music, but not exclusively, I enjoy all kinds of music just as I enjoy reading all kinds of novels and literature because the diversity of music captures the diversity of the human experience.  Tupac is definitely an artist, not just a "rapper" though in truth I'm sure he wouldn't mind being remembered as a rapper either.  However, in hip hop and rap music, there are some artists who are more overtly "conscious" then others, and generally these folks get all the recognition and attention.  There is even a weird "gospel rap" genre which seems almost like a parody of rap music, with Jesus sprinkled in there here and there.  Hip hop and rap music tell the story of the street, and Jesus is most definitely a Man of the streets, and is there for the street people.

Tupac may have been a maelstrom of negative attention and publicity, and a lot of it was well-deserved, however Tupac was a lot more than just scandal and controversy.  He was an activist, advocate, and leader for peace and justice on the streets, however he didn't stick his nose up on street people.  People don't realize because Tupac didn't broadcast or blow trumpets about his good deeds, but he was heavily involved in several of the "peace treaties" of the mid-1990s after the LA Uprising of 1992.  Tupac respected street people, was a street person, and yet was able to elevate street folks beyond the detriments of poverty and even criminality for some. 

His music paints the portrait of a lot of peoples' lives in America and across the world, and this is what people can readily relate to.  This is what makes him such a talented artist, that he is able to capture and recapitulate the subtly of "street life" and is very careful not to glamorous it.  Tupac highlights the negative as well as romanticising some of the day-to-day experiences.  Folks don't always need a lecture, sometimes they just need to relate and have a vehicle for expression.

Of course, aside from all this, Tupac is surprisingly a somewhat religious man, even in his music.  He even references God and conscious issues on par or even more with some of the more overtly "conscious" rappers out there, and yet this doesn't get a lot of notice, just as Black Sabbath actually wrote some really conscious tunes but people were drowned out by the commercial image and marketing strategies. 

Tupac is who is is, but who he was flawed and all was a great and sincere artist.

Here are some lyrical highlights expressing Tupac's religious sentiments that may get overlooked by his thug persona

Quote
"Father please forgive me for my life of sin, my hard stare seems to scare my sister's kids.." 
Until the End of Time

Quote
"Get on yo knees to pray, Oh Lord, Help me change my ways, and show a lil mercy on judgment day, it ain't me I was raised this way.."
Hell 4 a Hustla

Quote
"Is there a ghetto in heaven or do I go to hell?" 
Gotta Survive

Quote
"Picture a world where black babies can survive past five, but we must keep hope, quotin the reverend from the pulpit.."
Everything You Own

Quote
"Question for the Lord, why don't He like me, please guard my soul"
High Speed

Quote
"Just another lost soul stuck callin Jehovah.. Father how the hell did I survive these five shots?"
All Out

Quote
"and I wonder if the Lord ever heard of me.."
Po N***a Blues

Quote
"and I pray to black Jesus to please take the rest of me.."
As The World Turns

Quote
"Before I go to sleep I pray and thank the Lord for another fruitful day.."
F****n with the Wrong N***a

Quote
"Dear God I been feeling like I'm close to Jesus.."
Catchin Feelings

Quote
"I see no changes all I see is racist faces
misplaced hate makes disgrace to races
We under I wonder what it takes to make this
one better place, let's erase the wasted

Take the evil out the people they'll be acting right
'cause both black and white is smokin' crack tonight
and only time we chill is when we kill each other
it takes skill to be real, time to heal each other
And although it seems heaven sent"
Changes

Quote
"Uhh, feel me!
And God said He should send His one begotten son
to lead the wild into the ways of the man
Follow me; eat my flesh, flesh and my flesh

Come with me, Hail Mary
Run quick see, what do we have here
Now, do you wanna ride or die

Catch me father please, cause I'm fallin, " 
Hail Mary

Quote
"Cry later but for now let's enjoy the laughter
God bless the dead" 
God Bless the Dead

Quote
"Dear Lord..How can I survive? Got me askin white Jesus
will a  brotha live or die, cause the Lord can't see us
in the deep dark clouds of the projects, ain't no sunshine
No sunny days and we only play sometimes" 
Still I Rise

Quote
"I'd love to see the block in peace
With no more dealers and crooked cops, the only way to stop the beast
And only we can change
It's up to us to clean up the streets, it ain't the same
Too many murders, too many funerals and too many tears
Just seen another brother buried plus I knew him for years
Passed by his family, but what could I say?
Keep yo' head up and try to keep the faith
And pray for better days
"
Better Dayz


Quote
"In times of war we need somebody raw, rally the troops
like a Saint that we can trust to help to carry us through
Black Jesus, hahahahaha
He's like a Saint that we can trust to help to carry us through
Black Jesus

Searchin for Black Jesus
It's hard, it's hard
We need help out here
So we searchins for Black Jesus
It's like a Saint, that we pray to in the ghetto, to get us through
Somebody that understand our pain
You know maybe not too perfect, you know
Somebody that hurt like we hurt"
Black Jezus

Quote
"I see mothers in black crying
Brothers in packs dying
Plus everybody's high
Too doped up to ask why
Watching our on downfall, witness the end
It's like we don't believe in God cause we living in sin
I asked my homie on the block why he strapped
He laughed
Pointed his pistol as the cop car passed and blast
It's just another murder
Nobody mourns no more
My teardrops getting bigger
But can't figure what I'm crying for
Is it the miniature caskets?
Little babies
Victims of a stray, from drug dealers gone crazy
Maybe its just the drugs
Visions of how the block was
Crack came and it was strange how it rocked us
Perhaps the underlying facts they hide
Explain genocide
It's when we ride on our own kind
What is it we all fear?
Reflections in the mirror
We can't escape fate
The end is getting nearer


Who do you believe in?
I put my faith in God
Blessed and still breathing
And even though it's hard
That's who I believe in
Before I'm leaving
I'm asking the grieving
Who do you believe in?
Who Do You Believe In



Merry Western Calendar Christmas y'all!

Peace, Love, and Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie

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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2011, 05:38:58 PM »

Most OVER-RATED RAPPER EVER.

And yeah, I met the guy back when he was carrying crates and background dancing for the Humpty Dance.

OK dude for the 5 minutes I cared about the guy who wasn't even on the radar of anyone.

Again though, by far the most OVER-RATED RAPPER EVER.

Nothing to do with some hang up one content and the like. If he only had content or any flow to speak of.

lulz @ artist.

Merry Christmas Habte!

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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2011, 06:09:52 PM »

Ex-ballerina.

Enough said.
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2011, 07:29:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Wow.  Y'all were going to devote this thread to just hatin?  What, having a history of dance, acting, and poetry is a bad thing for Tupac? What should he just be a stereotype of a gangsta to appease y'all?  Good Lord Have His Mercy!

Tupac is more complex then the cuts that folks heard on the radio, or the rude boy gangsta image on Yo MTV Raps..  The brother had more substance than folks realize, but you have to dig into his interviews and the more obscure discography to really catch that, but if folks are blinded by hatin then they'd never even get that chance, which is precisely why I took the time to make this thread to help showcase a different side of Tupac, hopefully some non-hatin folkz out there on OC.net will better appreciate it.

"I know you hear me cuz your too near me not to feel me.."  Tupac

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2011, 07:54:55 PM »


Not illustrated above: art.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 07:57:56 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2011, 08:10:42 PM »

He was an interesting person.  He had the potential to do a lot of good in his life.  Unfortunately he never lived up to that potential.  He lived by the sword and ultimately died by it.  Lord have mercy. 
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2011, 08:40:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

He was an interesting person.  He had the potential to do a lot of good in his life.  Unfortunately he never lived up to that potential.  He lived by the sword and ultimately died by it.  Lord have mercy.  

 Big Up!

Stay Blessed,
habte selassie

  
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 08:40:49 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2011, 08:43:56 PM »

Not illustrated above: art.

I wouldn't have had a clue what you were talking about, except that that was on Bravo's Next Great Artist show this last season.  Cheesy

Anyway, regarding the OP... well I don't know what to say, as I've not really been into that music (excepting a year-long phase in junior high, but that doesn't count, all white kids were into rap that year, that's when Dre/Snoop blew up). But good on you for posting your thoughts Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2011, 09:45:49 PM »

Quote
There is even a weird "gospel rap" genre...

So, "conscious" rap is fine with you, so long as it's not "consciously Christian". Interesting.

Quote
which seems almost like a parody of rap music, with Jesus sprinkled in there here and there.

I find it strange that a Christian will post a long-winded quasi-celebration of a rapper who glorified thuggery and depravity and yet take a jab at artists who make a sincere attempt to glorify Christ and the life of virtue...On Christmas day of all days.

Quote
which seems almost like a parody of rap music, with Jesus sprinkled in there here and there.

The irony is that most "secular" rap music plays out like a parody of itself.

The greater irony is that your quasi-defence of 2Pac relies significantly on a list of references to lyrics wherein "Jesus [is] sprinkled in here and there".

Those artists who are genuinely Christian and genuinely seek to portray and promote the message of the Gospel wholeheartedly don't just "sprinkle" the name of Jesus "here and there".

Btw, most so-called "Christian rappers" do not see themselves working within a "Gospel rap" genre. They simply see themselves as rappers being faithful to their experiences and thoughts which happen to be shaped and nurtured by the message of the Gospel to which they are faithful.

Bizzle - Message Delivered
"And it's a shame that I can say the real-est thangs;
But if I mention God's Name,
You're gon' see it as if I’m preachin' to you...
...Is this 'Christian rap'? Homie, I don't know;
I'm just a Christian man that's got a cold flow"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-Sj4NXt7zA

Jin – Angels
(Jin, for those who may recall, used to be signed with 'Ruff Rydaz')
"New fans are glad God anointed my style;
Old fans wanna know what will I rap about now?
Switch it up; yo, I've got to do it;
The word is, 'Jin's putting out Gospel music';
See, I prefer to call it, 'change-your-life music';
All in hopes that one day you might use it...
...I can't call it; you can call it how you feel;
Call it 'change', call it 'growth', so long as you call it 'real'"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTWlFQbaalQ
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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2011, 09:04:16 AM »

The problem though is 2Pacman is a hypocrite, from a studio gangzta to a Malcolm X streetz prophet. Or how about him being a chauvanistic pig to women's right activist in literally every other song.

If Tupac never died the way he did, or was still alive, nobody would be talking about him.

I'll be more than happy to sip and chug my haterade all day long.
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« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2011, 04:19:57 PM »

Memory Eternal!
 May his soul dwell with the blessed.

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« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2011, 09:46:01 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

The problem though is 2Pacman is a hypocrite, from a studio gangzta to a Malcolm X streetz prophet. Or how about him being a chauvanistic pig to women's right activist in literally every other song.

If Tupac never died the way he did, or was still alive, nobody would be talking about him.

I'll be more than happy to sip and chug my haterade all day long.

"Only God can judge me.."

Memory Eternal!
 May his soul dwell with the blessed.


"God Bless the Dead.."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2011, 11:09:21 PM »

As the drummer of my old band used to say:  "You can't spell CRAP without RAP."  That goes for Tupac or any other Rap "musicians" out there which, of course, is a contradiction in terms.

BTW, how is this thread appropriate for "Religious topics."  Is gangsta rap a recognized religious following now?
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« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2011, 11:12:34 PM »

His Honorable Bob Marley

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« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2011, 11:42:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



BTW, how is this thread appropriate for "Religious topics."  Is gangsta rap a recognized religious following now?

This is free-for-all and it is religious topics because the 18 songs quotes specifically mention prayers or God or both Smiley


My mistake, that should be the Honorable Bob Marley, in Rastafari speak sometimes we get the His Excellency/His Holiness and the Honorable a bit mixed up, though I swear the title His Honorable is legitimate  but I must be mistaken.  Regardless, both the Hon. Marcus Garvey and the Hon. Bob Marley were awarded these titles by rightful merit as subjects of the British Empire, God be with Prince Philip.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2011, 12:52:41 AM »

^So, if someone should use the word God with a curse following it, that qualifies it for debate on religious topics.  Totally specious reasoning.  But then again, I should hardly be surprised from someone's obvious lack of musical taste.
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2011, 04:40:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

^So, if someone should use the word God with a curse following it, that qualifies it for debate on religious topics.  Totally specious reasoning.  But then again, I should hardly be surprised from someone's obvious lack of musical taste.

Excuse me but did you actually read some of the lyrics I quoted or is that just your usual crass attitude?  You have plenty of right to criticize musical styles and content, but I think it isn't fair of you to disregard the sincerity of Tupac's faith as expressed in his music, I am sorry, that is just plain rude.  

By the way, you don't have to make it personal about me because I likee Tupac, that is also rude.  Now if you'd like to discuss something with substance rather than attitude problem I'd love to dive into a musical discussion, but if you just insist on running the "insult habte selassie" record on rewind that is your decision Mr. Selectah, but it is neither Christian nor decent.

Just for fun, I will give an example of a detailed analytical discussion of the lyrics, and if folks have criticism perhaps they can chose to express these criticisms in this way rather then through crass and demeaning scoffing.


Quote
"Get on yo knees to pray, Oh Lord, Help me change my ways, and show a lil mercy on judgment day, it ain't me I was raised this way.."
Hell 4 a Hustla

This is the chorus of this song, it repeats several times, but the "get on yo knees to pray" is the intro, and for Tupac a call to prayer is actually a common intro for many of his songs.  This is a repentant prayer, one which Tupac is asking ALL folks from a criminal persuasion to take to heart.  It is mercy Tupac is asking for, not because he deserves it, but much like the sinner praying with the Pharisee in Luke 18.  Y'all may not realize this, but even with all his idiosyncrasies , Tupac was still a rather religious man at his core and he struggled very much with the long-term spiritual consequences of his actions.  He is no Robin Hood, that is for sure, and as has been expressed above, he lived by the sword and died by it the same, but he owned up to this, something a lot of self-proclaimed Christians in America fail to do.  While Repentance and Confession may be central and pivotal to the Orthodox/Catholic experience, the experience of many American Christians is quite the opposite, do deny, hide, and neglect Sin in their lives.  At the least, Tupac is being honest in his confession, something rare amongst  the hyped up "alpha male gangsta image" typical to rappers. Tupac's expressions of repentance offer fans of his music a rare glimpse into the same sense of vulnerability, and I have seen first  hand with my own eyes fairly "hard" gangsters who live unrepentant lives be moved almost to tears by some of Pac's confessions, it pushes them to confession the same way reading the Confessions of Saint Basil move me.

Quote
"Is there a ghetto in heaven or do I go to hell?"
Gotta Survive

Here Tupac is expressing the heavy weight of the American experience of poverty and racism, which has become so systemic in our society that to some black folks heaven itself seems unobtainable because of the circumstances.  Black people are made the villain, and villains go to hell, when Tupac asks about a "ghetto in heaven" he is addressing poetically the concept of "is there a place for black people in heaven?"  Now to many of us this may seem like an absurd question, but many WASP evangelicals in their hearts are vitriolically racist, and I wonder sometimes myself having grown up with Appalachian Baptists and other Ozark folks if they would even be comfortable with the idea of black people being in heaven? This is what Tupac is addressing here, this is his message, does WASP Christianity leave a place for black folks in our contemporary American religious landscape?

Quote
"Picture a world where black babies can survive past five, but we must keep hope, quotin the reverend from the pulpit.."
Everything You Own

Clearly this is a call for community awareness and solidarity, this is the "hope" which Tupac references several times in his music, interviews, and negotiations.  Tupac is an advocate for black awareness, and in in his time much like our own black infants have a disproportionately higher mortality rate, which reflects certain inequalities in our American society.  Tupac is speaking on this issue, and the hope of particularly black Christianity in the context of the American experience is to be able to transcend the limitations of our systematically divided society.  Faith is how folks deal with the struggles of our day to day realities, and Tupac is drawing on this imagery here.  It is Black Christianity and Black Churches which carried black folks through 250 years of slavery, through another 100 years of Jim Crow, and then through the past 50 years of readjustment, and Tupac is carefully pointing to this fact when he mentions "hope"  as quoted by "the reverend from the pulpit."





Quote
"I see no changes all I see is racist faces
misplaced hate makes disgrace to races
We under I wonder what it takes to make this
one better place, let's erase the wasted
Take the evil out the people they'll be acting right
'cause both black and white is smokin' crack tonight
and only time we chill is when we kill each other
it takes skill to be real, time to heal each other
And although it seems heaven sent"
Changes

Changes is one of Tupac's more mainstream "conscious" tracks that got a lot of airplay on the TV/Radio, where as a lot of the tunes I quoted very well me foreign even to many Tupac fans because they are from the underground posthumous releases called the Makaveli Bootlegs that are realistically a local Los Angeles thing until the internet made things a bit more available, these were LA swap-meet staples.  Its fairly straightforward, "misplaced hate makes disgrace for races" and "take the evil out the people they'll be acting right" and "it takes skill to be real, time to heal each other" are pretty obvious, and if folks disagree with these sentiments perhaps they need to re-read them sans the chip on the shoulder Smiley



Quote
"Cry later but for now let's enjoy the laughter
God bless the dead"
God Bless the Dead

Death is a constant motif and image in Tupac's life, he struggled with this daily.  It is perhaps the only theme more discussed in his lyrics than crime, God, or women.  Here he is acknowledging the pain and sheer mystery of death, and yet expressing the Christian sentiment of joy mixed with grief at the repose of our brothers and sisters, because there is plenty of time to cry and mourn later, but for Tupac it is important that we learn to  enjoy the good times in all regards because they are a rare gift from God.  When Tupac commends the dead to God, he is encouraging us to reflect on the good in life, and let God deal with the rest.  We can cry to Him later, for now lets find the reasons to laugh because that is what truly makes us human, to be able to cope and survive and not come apart at the seems at every tragedy.  Like my sistren Lowly Lisa's poetry says, "When times are good rejoice, and when times are hard, reflect, because even these shall pass."

Quote
"Dear Lord..How can I survive? Got me askin white Jesus
will a  brotha live or die, cause the Lord can't see us
in the deep dark clouds of the projects, ain't no sunshine
No sunny days and we only play sometimes"
Still I Rise

This is like the WASP issue, Tupac is expressing his frustration with the fact the black folks find it hard to find their identity in the typical American Christian experience.  He is expressing the frustrations of living "in the projects" and the "deep dark clouds" are not literal, it is a symbol for the struggles of a life of poverty, conflict, and racism endemic to our society.  The lack of sunshine is not literal, it is metaphorical of the gloomy reality a lot of black people face, and Tupac is their advocate.  The only thing literal in this lyric is the line, "Lord how can I survive?"  By the way, the Catholic Church here in Los Angeles agrees completely with this sentiment, which is common to Latinos as much as black folks.  White people in America take for granted that their place in American religion is always legitimated, and yet other folks find themselves victimized, trivialized, or even villainized as the perpetual "other" even when America really is made up as an entire composition of "otherness" which is more superficial, because to outsiders we are all mutually and uniquely Americans irregardless of the color-lines.  



Quote
"I'd love to see the block in peace
With no more dealers and crooked cops, the only way to stop the beast
And only we can change
It's up to us to clean up the streets, it ain't the same
Too many murders, too many funerals and too many tears
Just seen another brother buried plus I knew him for years
Passed by his family, but what could I say?
Keep yo' head up and try to keep the faith
And pray for better days"
Better Dayz

"Keep yo head up and try to keep faith and pray for better days" is another self-evident lyric, used in the context of consolation of grief over loss.  Again, death is a constant image in Tupac's music and in his life, and he uses his faith in God to make sense of this, just as we do.  Death isn't really any easier for us in Orthodox either then it was for Tupac, and we have hymns which express the same sentiments.

Quote
"In times of war we need somebody raw, rally the troops
like a Saint that we can trust to help to carry us through
Black Jesus, hahahahaha
He's like a Saint that we can trust to help to carry us through
Black Jesus

Searchin for Black Jesus
It's hard, it's hard
We need help out here
So we searchins for Black Jesus
It's like a Saint, that we pray to in the ghetto, to get us through
Somebody that understand our pain
You know maybe not too perfect, you know
Somebody that hurt like we hurt"
Black Jezus

Black Jezus is another track where Tupac openly expresses his frustrations with the black religious experience in America.  The Black Christ, as He represents across the black world from the Rastafari Black Christ to the Christo Negro of Veracruz in Mexico, a blackening of Jesus is a way for black folks to relate their experience.  Jesus Christ is perfectly human, and further the Fathers have often written how He relates more to the poor, to the sick, to the mistreated of the world rather then those who luxuriate in palaces.  Black people most definitely fit into this category, and as an advocate for black awareness Tupac is using the motif of the Black Christ to point out how not just black people, but young black people and indeed many criminals can't relate to Jesus.  Saint Moses the Ethiopian or the Thief on the Right are Orthodox saints for Repentant Criminals, essentially Tupac is drawing on this same theme, and had he known about Saint Moses the Ethiopian he probably would have wrote a song about him too!

Quote
"I see mothers in black crying
Brothers in packs dying
Plus everybody's high
Too doped up to ask why
Watching our on downfall, witness the end
It's like we don't believe in God cause we living in sin

I asked my homie on the block why he strapped
He laughed
Pointed his pistol as the cop car passed and blast
It's just another murder
Nobody mourns no more
My teardrops getting bigger
But can't figure what I'm crying for

Is it the miniature caskets?
Little babies
Victims of a stray, from drug dealers gone crazy
Maybe its just the drugs
Visions of how the block was
Crack came and it was strange how it rocked us
Perhaps the underlying facts they hide
Explain genocide
It's when we ride on our own kind
What is it we all fear?
Reflections in the mirror
We can't escape fate
The end is getting nearer


Who do you believe in?
I put my faith in God
Blessed and still breathing
And even though it's hard
That's who I believe in
Before I'm leaving
I'm asking the grieving
Who do you believe in?"


Who Do You Believe In

This track is Tupac's confessional opus  of sorts.  He combines all his images, criminality, Death, women, and God into one potent song.  In this tune he laments about the current situations, the struggles he sees himself and his community facing, the violence, the poverty, the death, the crime, and instead of scapegoating he puts the blame squarely on ourselves.  He doesn't blame society, or the government, or even the Devil, instead he says quite clearly, "what is it we all fear, reflections in the mirror?"  However, like in all his lamentations, Tupac turns to God with the chorus, trusting in faith that God can make sense of the world which he himself can't.  Tupac looks at the world as it is, and comments on it using his own style and language, and while it may be "street" street people are people too, and their opinions, insights, and reflections are equally valid to UCLA alumni and gossipy crowds in line at Starbucks.  Life is real, and what Tupac did is to "speak the real."


Now, again, if folks would like to be polite and discuss the music that is fine, but please, try not to insult me directly because our tastes in music may be different, and if you have any critiques of a dead man's legacy, at the least keep it substantive rather then sensational.


stay blessed,
habte selassie



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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2011, 04:52:18 PM »

Quote from: HabteSelassie
Now to many of us this may seem like an absurd question, but many WASP evangelicals in their hearts are vitriolically racist, and I wonder sometimes myself having grown up with Appalachian Baptists and other Ozark folks if they would even be comfortable with the idea of black people being in heaven? This is what Tupac is addressing here, this is his message, does WASP Christianity leave a place for black folks in our contemporary American religious landscape?

Bit of a blanket statement there.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans died to end slavery. Most of them were white and probably Protestant. There was a significant minority of Roman Catholics and I'm sure there may have been Jewish soldiers as well. There were whites, Protestant and otherwise, in the Civil Rights movement as well.

It's possible to see people as individuals and not assume the entire group has race-itis.

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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2011, 05:20:46 PM »

Excuse me but did you actually read some of the lyrics I quoted or is that just your usual crass attitude?  You have plenty of right to criticize musical styles and content, but I think it isn't fair of you to disregard the sincerity of Tupac's faith as expressed in his music, I am sorry, that is just plain rude.  

Yes, I did read the quotes and if there is one thing that I have learned about rap and its "artists" is that you cannot read the lyrics autobiographically.  How many "artists" and have been taken to task for the obscene themes and words in their music only to typically answer that it shouldn't be read literally or it's just art or some excuse like that.  So, how does a reasonable person sort out what is to be autobiographical and sincere from those other things that are just part of the trade and not to be taken at their word?  Are their footnotes in the liner notes that direct the listener that "this section I mean" and others say "this section is artistic and not to be taken literally?"  How can you possibly know what his true intentions were?  Did you know the man personally?

You know Tchaikovsky wrote several musical settings of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  They are beautiful settings, but Tchaikovsky, from his own words, was pretty much of an atheist.  But if we only had his compositions, one might expect that he was a strong Orthodox Christian. 

As far as musical taste goes, you cannot reasonably compare a true genius like Beethoven to some rapper like Tupac.  It's sickening and saddening that on many college campuses you cannot expect to find a course taught on Beethoven, but you can find any number of courses devoted to the "genius" of such men like Tupac or Jay-Z.  I will continue to criticize people's choices in music.  It's your right to listen to whatever you wish; that doesn't mean it's good.
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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2011, 05:24:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Quote from: HabteSelassie
Now to many of us this may seem like an absurd question, but many WASP evangelicals in their hearts are vitriolically racist, and I wonder sometimes myself having grown up with Appalachian Baptists and other Ozark folks if they would even be comfortable with the idea of black people being in heaven? This is what Tupac is addressing here, this is his message, does WASP Christianity leave a place for black folks in our contemporary American religious landscape?

Bit of a blanket statement there.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans died to end slavery. Most of them were white and probably Protestant. There was a significant minority of Roman Catholics and I'm sure there may have been Jewish soldiers as well. There were whites, Protestant and otherwise, in the Civil Rights movement as well.

It's possible to see people as individuals and not assume the entire group has race-itis.



That is true, and John Brown is a true Martyr, and white folks were lynched alongside black folks, but any of these white folks who are for the cause know intuitively that the struggle remains, and all drama aside, racism is still a terrible disease in our society, inequality is still a major issue, especially in American religion, and I am sorry, we can't just declare victory yet, and neither did Tupac. I still see often with my own eyes racism against black people in white churches and from white pulipts, and not just whites, Latinos here in LA have gotten in on it lately too, and I am always surprised at the things some people say with a straight face as if it were perfectly normal or acceptable!!  

That lyric is not to discredit white folks who are down with the struggle, it is not to demonize white folks, rather it is to highlight that even after the Civil War and Civil Rights Movement, the issue is still as valid and the struggle is still as common as ever!  Tupac's point stands correct and true and insightful today as 18 years ago when he first declared it, IS THERE REALLY A PLACE FOR BLACK FOLKS IN THE AMERICAN RELIGIOUS LANDSCAPE? While surely in many respects there is, but we shouldn't be so optimistic neither dangerously naive to assume that we've already won the war against racism in American, because black folks surely know that the flag has still got to be hoisted, and if the team-playing white folks are already thinking it a war won, then these will be surprised when new battles arise, like when folks still insist that our President is not a Christian, even when he openly declares his faith time and time again, or what about all that controversy surrounding President Obama's previous pastor (again, religious not strictly political matters)? The issue is still quite relevant than, sorry, please don't be so dismissive.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2011, 05:37:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Excuse me but did you actually read some of the lyrics I quoted or is that just your usual crass attitude?  You have plenty of right to criticize musical styles and content, but I think it isn't fair of you to disregard the sincerity of Tupac's faith as expressed in his music, I am sorry, that is just plain rude.  

Yes, I did read the quotes and if there is one thing that I have learned about rap and its "artists" is that you cannot read the lyrics autobiographically.  How many "artists" and have been taken to task for the obscene themes and words in their music only to typically answer that it shouldn't be read literally or it's just art or some excuse like that.  So, how does a reasonable person sort out what is to be autobiographical and sincere from those other things that are just part of the trade and not to be taken at their word?  Are their footnotes in the liner notes that direct the listener that "this section I mean" and others say "this section is artistic and not to be taken literally?"  How can you possibly know what his true intentions were?  Did you know the man personally?

You know Tchaikovsky wrote several musical settings of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.  They are beautiful settings, but Tchaikovsky, from his own words, was pretty much of an atheist.  But if we only had his compositions, one might expect that he was a strong Orthodox Christian. 

As far as musical taste goes, you cannot reasonably compare a true genius like Beethoven to some rapper like Tupac.  It's sickening and saddening that on many college campuses you cannot expect to find a course taught on Beethoven, but you can find any number of courses devoted to the "genius" of such men like Tupac or Jay-Z.  I will continue to criticize people's choices in music.  It's your right to listen to whatever you wish; that doesn't mean it's good.

I am sorry then if I was equally crass or dismissive in my response to you, thank you for jumping in our discussion Smiley

I am using some of the context and interviews to interpret the lyrics, and I can flip it on you, how can you be so then sure that Tupac is not sincere when you ask me if I know?  I prefer to deal with it at face value, and further, even if Tupac is not sincere, surely we can still appreciate the art he produced and what it expresses which what I included in my analyses.  Caravaggio's reputation was notorious, and he clearly struggled to live his faith, and yet who could deny the religiosity behind Caravaggio's painting? I would say with Tupac it is the same, the man is definitely conflicted, even hypocritical, but that is the catch with art, you have to read art for its own sake, not just as a reflection of the artist. Art is transcendental in that regard.

Back to musical opinions, those are your opinions, and you are right to have them, but it is only YOU who say that Beethoven's genius is superior to that of Tupac or Kurt Cobain or the like, and art speaks for itself, and art is meant for its audience, and so let the audience define such sense of genius.  Classical composers were as demonized and scandalized in their time by their contemporaries as any rock star or rapper, so really you need to let hindsight clarify this issue about the genuineness of the artistic merits or not.  If folks call it art, then it becomes art, and we can disagree with the technicality, mechanics, logistics, or ascetics, but we should be careful in using such subjective and relative terms as "genius"

This is why I liked Joseph Campbell, the brother was saturated in some of the world's greatest and most artistic literature and mythology, he never went to a concert in his life until the Grateful Dead moved in next door, and suddenly in his 80s he went to his first concert ever, a Dead show to which even in the height of the Reagan Cold War he called the Dead, "The answer the Atom Bomb."  If that isn't genius what is, and if Joseph Campbell wasn't well-read enough in human art and culture not to be a good judge of genius, who is?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2011, 05:44:16 PM »

That is true, and John Brown is a true Martyr, [

Is he in a Synaxis grouped with Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya?
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2011, 07:20:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That is true, and John Brown is a true Martyr, [

Is he in a Synaxis grouped with Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya?

My mistake, this is Orthodox and perhaps you took that comment a bit to seriously, whereas I implied it literally, though perhaps its again my mistake for emphasizing a capital "M" on martyr.

Quote
Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!


If that isn't the words of a martyr what is? America may not be Orthodox, but we are not short of heroes and martyrs in our albeit relatively brief history.


From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

Quote
We call upon the Greek Orthodox Christians to use their fullest resources in the struggle for human justice for all people, regardless of race, creed, or color.
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2011, 11:41:26 PM »

Quote
Tupac's expressions of repentance...

Do you know what repentance means? Momentary and sparse confessions of one's spiritual and moral failings, with a bit of "Jesus sprinkled here and there", accompanied by a host of references that glorify thuggery and depravity is far from repentance. That is just some weird form of spiritual schizophrenia.
 
Take a look at the verses that immediately proceed the so-called "call to prayer" you ask us to consider:

Huh, increase the doses, bustin whoever closest
Thug livin, hell or prison, never losin my focus
I'm makin money moves manditory
In a discussion my past records tell a story
Picture ni**az we rushin and still bustin

How WEIRD...What kind of honest repentance is that?

What makes your attempt to quote a line from 'Hell 4 a Hustler' as an indication of genuine repentance even more ridiculous is the fact that the general message of the song is, "Yeah, I know this lifestyle I'm living is wrong, but hey, I was raised this way, so please excuse me." No intention of change. How far from an authentic expression of repentance could this song and any line in it possibly be?

You know what is more reflective of repentance, and is far from weird? The songs of many so-called "Gospel rappers" who once used to live a life of thuggery and depravity and who have made genuine and significant changes and who thus rap about nothing but the goodness of the life of virtue and the corruption of the life of sin. Most of them also happen to be very upfront about their own weaknesses and ongoing struggles with temptation and sin, but they do so in a way that encourages one to fight the good fight without making poor excuses to cop-out.

A rapper's confessions of genuine repentance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po3k6sPHeX0
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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2011, 02:29:37 AM »

i see no changes. i wake up every morning and i ask myself, "is life worth living? or should i blast myself?" you know, im tired of being poor. and its even worse because im black. my stomach hurts, so im looking for a purse to snatch!!! the cops just dont care about the african american community. i mean, they pull the trigger and kill one of us and hes a hero. we might as well give crack cocaine to the kids. i mean, who cares? after all, its one less hungry mouth on the welfare!

but thats just the way it is. things will never, ever be the same.
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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2011, 02:47:06 AM »

i see no changes. i wake up every morning and i ask myself, "is life worth living? or should i blast myself?" you know, im tired of being poor. and its even worse because im black. my stomach hurts, so im looking for a purse to snatch!!! the cops just dont care about the african american community. i mean, they pull the trigger and kill one of us and hes a hero. we might as well give crack cocaine to the kids. i mean, who cares? after all, its one less hungry mouth on the welfare!

but thats just the way it is. things will never, ever be the same.

Should I keep this going? Unfortunately, I know every word to more a few dozen 2pac songs at least.

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« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2011, 03:09:20 AM »

Some brief comments for now...

I do in fact think that Tupac was a talented individual. I think he was a gifted poet, a talented musical composer, and an able actor. However, I am not a Tupac fan. I think his overall impact upon society - and especially upon the African American community - has been far more negative than positive. I am disgusted by the attempts of some to portray Tupac as some type of revolutionary figure. There was nothing revolutionary about Tupac (except perhaps as it relates to his influence upon the genre of hip hop, which itself is debatable). Tupac's lifestyle and lyrics merely promoted the unfortunate status quo of the "Thug life," and countless African American youths have destroyed their lives and souls in the endeavor to emulate the demonic lifestyle that Tupac so artistically glorified.

One cannot have one foot in Babylon and one foot in Zion. Invoking prayer and mentioning God does not compensate for his glorification of violence, and rapping praises to his mother does not negate his mysoginistic lyrics and lifestyle.

I also grow quite weary of the "keeping it real" excuse. There are millions of people all over the world who live in dire poverty and yet refuse to steal, murder, and sell their souls for profit. They are the ones who are "keeping it real;" but sadly, not many rappers are interested in extolling their virtues. I guess it's not cool to work hard, eke out a meager existence, and maintain a virtuous life in the process.

But of course, this is one of the reasons I love conscious reggae music so much. Bob Marley and many others were able to use their music and lyrics to highlight and glorify virtuous living and the spiritual life. I love that roots music and conscious dancehall which deals with the dire realities of poverty, violence, oppression, and injustice without glorifying gangsterism and licentiousness. So, in my humble opinion, Tupac's name has no business being mentioned in the same conversation as Bob Marley.

I have to say that I agree with the comments Ekhristos made. I am not one to judge Tupac's repentance or lack thereof. Only JAH knows. But the seeds he sowed through his music and lifestyle bore some foul fruit as far as I can tell.

Don't mean to sound so harsh bredren. But you asked for my opinion, so there it is FWIW.  Wink

Bless always.


Selam
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« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2011, 05:03:08 AM »

What this discussion, and similar discussions we've had on reggae music and other things here, shows us is that we shouldn't be looking to secular music or musical celebrities for any kind of spiritual or moral direction. None of these people are role models of any kind. All pop or rock or whatever stars are degenerates, at least in terms of their public personas and egos (if not always in private).
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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2011, 05:45:25 AM »

Quote
I do in fact think that Tupac was a talented individual.


Many Christian rappers demonstrate a lot more talent than 2pac ever did. I cannot think of one song in which 2pac was able to present his content with anywhere near as much lyrical and musical talent as displayed in Lecrae's 'Killa':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDyieIxr33c

Lecrae skilfully personifies sin as a murderous seductress, depicting her characteristic behaviours with reference to a number of Biblical images and metaphors. The instrumental works very nicely to create an atmospheric sense of enticing danger about her, and the use of an alluring female voice to vocalise her deceitful insidiousness serves to add an ingenious final touch.
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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2011, 07:56:35 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That is true, and John Brown is a true Martyr, [

Is he in a Synaxis grouped with Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya?

My mistake, this is Orthodox and perhaps you took that comment a bit to seriously, whereas I implied it literally, though perhaps its again my mistake for emphasizing a capital "M" on martyr.

Quote
Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!


If that isn't the words of a martyr what is? America may not be Orthodox, but we are not short of heroes and martyrs in our albeit relatively brief history.


From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

Quote
We call upon the Greek Orthodox Christians to use their fullest resources in the struggle for human justice for all people, regardless of race, creed, or color.
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101



stay blessed,
habte selassie

We call a martyr the one who died for Christ, not the one who died in gang wars, no matter he is green or black or pink.
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« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2011, 11:54:32 AM »

i see no changes. i wake up every morning and i ask myself, "is life worth living? or should i blast myself?" you know, im tired of being poor. and its even worse because im black. my stomach hurts, so im looking for a purse to snatch!!! the cops just dont care about the african american community. i mean, they pull the trigger and kill one of us and hes a hero. we might as well give crack cocaine to the kids. i mean, who cares? after all, its one less hungry mouth on the welfare!

but thats just the way it is. things will never, ever be the same.

Should I keep this going? Unfortunately, I know every word to more a few dozen 2pac songs at least.



Go for it! Ha!
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« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2011, 12:48:32 PM »

Just another thug who died by the sword.....who happens to have a great PR firm.

Im not surprised to see the degeneration of civilized culture, and it being replaced by the glorification of scum like this guy and the countless others like him. These people are not artists, they simply market to the lowest common denominator. you can keep the whole lot of them.

PP
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« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2011, 12:54:39 PM »

One thing this thread shows is, there ain't a fellow head on this board.
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« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2011, 01:02:01 PM »

Sorry if I offended anyone. I just have very strong opinions concerning rap "music" and the purveyors of it.
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« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2011, 02:28:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That is true, and John Brown is a true Martyr, [

Is he in a Synaxis grouped with Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya?

My mistake, this is Orthodox and perhaps you took that comment a bit to seriously, whereas I implied it literally, though perhaps its again my mistake for emphasizing a capital "M" on martyr.

Quote
Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!


If that isn't the words of a martyr what is? America may not be Orthodox, but we are not short of heroes and martyrs in our albeit relatively brief history.


From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

Quote
We call upon the Greek Orthodox Christians to use their fullest resources in the struggle for human justice for all people, regardless of race, creed, or color.
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101



stay blessed,
habte selassie

We call a martyr the one who died for Christ, not the one who died in gang wars, no matter he is green or black or pink.

Excuse me, I was talking about the late abolitionist John Brown as a martyr, and again I made the correction from capital "M" Martyr (a Christian Saint) to lower-case "m" martyr which by the dictionary means "a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause."

Some brief comments for now...

I do in fact think that Tupac was a talented individual. I think he was a gifted poet, a talented musical composer, and an able actor. However, I am not a Tupac fan. I think his overall impact upon society - and especially upon the African American community - has been far more negative than positive. I am disgusted by the attempts of some to portray Tupac as some type of revolutionary figure. There was nothing revolutionary about Tupac (except perhaps as it relates to his influence upon the genre of hip hop, which itself is debatable). Tupac's lifestyle and lyrics merely promoted the unfortunate status quo of the "Thug life," and countless African American youths have destroyed their lives and souls in the endeavor to emulate the demonic lifestyle that Tupac so artistically glorified.


It is indeed an unfortunate tragedy that the youth have forgotten what Tupac initiated with his use of acronyms like N.I.G.G.A (Never Ignorant about Getting Goals Accomplished and T.H.U.G. L.I.F.E. (The Hate You Gave Little Infants F***s Everybody) and the like.  Tupac's whole intention with these terms was to convert negative slang terms into positive euphemisms, just as the early Panthers did who were his influence with "B.L.O.O.D. (Brotherly Love Overcomes Oppressive Domination)" and C.R.I.P (Community Revolution In Progress)" but alas, most of the youth who listen to Tupac completely misunderstand exactly why Tupac continually insisted on using terms like N***A in his music and in his life, but Pac was serious about his acronyms and always implied such behind his choice of lingo.  Further, what is worse about the whole "thug" persona that people have both attributed to Tupac and also wrongfully emulate is that T.H.U.G. L.I.F.E was never intended to glamorize, romanticize, or idealize gangsterism and criminality, in many respects quite the opposite.  T.H.U.G L.I.F.E. was a "code of conduct" drafted at the 1993 Bloods/Crips "Truce Picnic" which was a truly revolutionary event in Los Angeles history, and had almost a decade of positive repercussions on the streets here (I speak on this as a first hand witness of the calmer streets between black gang violence between 1993-1999 the years of the active truce).  Tupac comes from a Black Panther family, and he was heavily influenced by this.  T.H.U.G L.I.F.E as distasteful as it seems to us, was a code of conduct for street gangsters and dealers, but it was life changing ideas for the community which incorporated Black Panther ideals into the reality of gang oriented street life, but these "rules" were never established previously which is why the homicide rate in the early 1990s was so staggering.  Tupac and some other OGs came into the Truce Picnic intending to development a tangible mechanism to reduce the violence on the streets, and in many regards he succeeded, and that is the why it is the biggest shame that Thug Life today has been mistakingly used by the youth who don't know any better being one generation removed, to glamorize gang violence whe Tupac intended so much the opposite!!

The Crips and Bloods evolved out of the chaos that ensued after the FBI infiltrated, arrested, and assassinated several the leadership of the Black Panthers, who had stopped gang violence in Oakland and Los Angeles and instead Oakland PD reported in 1968 that there was too  little crime to enforce in Oakland because the teenagers were too busy painting neighbor's houses in restoration projects and buying groceries for elderly folks.  The Panthers were a serious force for good, and what happened in the aftermath of their collapse was devastating, particularly to Los Angeles and Oakland.  Tupac brought that same spirit of the Panther, to negotiate peace truces with LA gangs.  He had started this operation in first weeks in Los Angeles, using the gang and drug dealer connections he found at Death Row Records.  This is how Pac become almost an "OG" or a "Shot-Caller" in LA because so many folks almost magically respected him and his leadership.  It was the personality of Tupac Shakur that brought temporary peace to Los Angeles, and it was in the direct aftermath of LA county's worst year for gang violence, as in 1992 there were upwards of 3000 homicides across Los Angeles County Sad  Tupac entered into this literally life-or-death maelstrom and managed to negotiate lasting peace treaties!! IF THAT ISN'T REVOLUTIONARY, WHAT IS?  We here in LA have this then residual respect for the memory of Tupac, because what he did in our city was a lot more than just sell records and glorify violence, he actively advocated, campaigned, and negotiated active peace on the streets!!


Quote
One cannot have one foot in Babylon and one foot in Zion. Invoking prayer and mentioning God does not compensate for his glorification of violence, and rapping praises to his mother does not negate his mysoginistic lyrics and lifestyle.

I agree, but as I mentioned with Caravaggio, we have to be careful how much we disregard or dismiss a person's sincerity.  Orthodox teaches us that repentance and confession is a process, not an instant becoming.  Yes, in so many respects Tupac is an open hypocrite, and yet he was always the first to really admit it.  In many of his interviews he spoke from his heart and confessed much more than he did in his albums, perhaps folks should catch the movie "Tupac Resurrection" which is composed of 100% narration by a montage of Tupac's more intimate and revealing interviews, stuff that was strictly underground or obscure fanzine and LA swap meet material until that film put it out on the mainstream finally giving the American audience a glimpse in to the real Pac. Hypocrite, yes, but in many respects, aren't we all? We are all sinners mind you, and Tupac was always the first to admit it.  That is the drama of gang life my brotha, you get caught up in life-or-death struggles, and the relationships you forge with people are a survival mechanism, and these come attached with "street politics" which you can't avoid.  It is a downward cycle, but one born out of necessity, out of mutual falling, of mutual support, of forming an unfortunate sense of community in gang-life. Tupac was what we say "caught up" but once people start shooting you (five or six times) you get a little but paranoid about things and who to trust, and you inevitably fall back on the security you know which is in gang-life (which is how gangsters get caught up in the first place) and this is a self-reinforcing cycle of violence, self-defense, violence, self-defense... This is as Tupac said, "The paradox of my block."

Quote
But of course, this is one of the reasons I love conscious reggae music so much. Bob Marley and many others were able to use their music and lyrics to highlight and glorify virtuous living and the spiritual life. I love that roots music and conscious dancehall which deals with the dire realities of poverty, violence, oppression, and injustice without glorifying gangsterism and licentiousness. So, in my humble opinion, Tupac's name has no business being mentioned in the same conversation as Bob Marley.

You do understand that Bob Marley was about as "thug" as any rapper today, and there are DJs from JA who can testify to having been beaten up, blindfolded at gun-point, and having been dragged around in the trucks of cars to encourage them to spin Bob Marley records so its not as cut-and-dry as you may think Wink


I have pointed out at several places that Tupac was indeed not saint, and that he was also often times quite the hypocrite, but I wanted to discuss the positive aspects of his art and legacy here, not dwell solely on the obviously negative.  We can ALL right horror story biographies about our sins, we are all sinners, and from the perspective of solely examining our own negative qualities ALL OF US HERE EVEN IN ORTHODOX look fairly ugly...  I chose to highlight some positive aspects of Tupac's life and art, and I hope some folkz perhaps took it to heart and noticed something they never had seen.  

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Everywhere I go, they holla keep it real G, and my reply till they kill me."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2011, 12:07:23 AM »

HabteSelassie,

I do like 2pac's music, but I like Gospel rap even more. Been into it since 1995/1996. I also personally know a number of protestant christian rappers and producers, and so give it a listen or two. I know you made fun of it earlier, but it's actually good music and a number of the artists are actually sincere in what they do, and yes they do and can reach the streets!

From a Christian rap event / get together some years ago in Baltimore, Maryland.



From Rap Fest(a christian rap event) in South Bronx, New York some years ago.




My homie Steve Brindle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XCL458U4ak&feature=plcp&context=C3d8adf1UDOEgsToPDskJ14UXXsNQRzpWlrkk-2kuo (East Hills Park....a park in one of the hoods of Pittsburgh. He dropped by to perform 6 months ago and so I had to say what up to him - Believin Stephen)






His most recent video:
The second dude rappin lives in Plum, which is a suburb of Pittsburgh. He's a real cool dude. I use to buy my hard to find christian rap C.D.'s from dude way back in the day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUtdHjXZSJ8 (Believin Stephen- "Teddy's Story"- feat. Calm One)



Another homie of mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRK7VLTTrZQ (Sho Baraka's "We Can Be More" video)



But yeah man, check it out! It's not as bad as you made it seem. Trust me, I know!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 12:16:21 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2011, 02:35:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am sorry folks misunderstood my critiques of "Gospel Rap"  as I didn't intend to "make fun of" or disraspect any of those artists.  My criticism was not about all Gospel rappers, more so a specifically crass genre of overtly commercialized and "marketed to Christians from the pulpit" Christian music of any-genre which is both fake and exploitative.  There are music producers who literally search for the "next big hit" in "Christian" music, but not with the intentions of preaching Christ through the Gospel music, rather simply to manipulate concerned Christians to buy their records.  As a musician, that is in horrifyingly poor taste and insulting to artists' art.  People shouldn't buy art because it is a cookie-cutter ready made Christianized alternative, they should buy art because they sincerely enjoy the art.  Art shouldn't be in anyway limited by ideology, because ideology will interpret art anyways.  If folks are Christian, they will see Christ in a Marilyn Manson album, they don't specifically need Christianized versions of their art.  If there are sincere Christian bands and artists out there who make art for arts sake, and their art happens to be Christian, big up to these artists, (from one musician to another) but to those imitators out there pretending to be rockers or rappers simply to sell "Christian albums" to Christian kids that is a shame.  I am against ALL exploitative aspects of the music industry, be it mainstream corporate fleecing of artists royalties or abusive marketing strategies of "Christian" music.  I have heard preachers from the pulpit DEMAND that ALL their congregation THROW out ALL THEIR "SECULAR MUSIC" and then casually mentioned they can go into the gift shop and purchase ready-made Christian alternatives.  That is shameful, who makes that money?  I am sorry, that is an embarrassing conflict of interest, I never even heard the term "secular music" until some money hungry churches starting asking people to throw away their music.

IT IS NEVER CHRISTIAN TO GUILT ANOTHER CHRISTIAN INTO BUYING SOMETHING

If one genre of artists manipulated their audience to systematically reject ALL other artists and genres solely to purchase albums from their discography and collect all the money as well, that is exploitation and that is wrong. It is not that all Gospel artists or Christian musicians or Christian rappers are doing this, but a lot of the pastors, producers, and distributors in their "Christian music industry" are and that is by no means Christian.  Sincere Gospel music should be about preaching the Gospel, and making money through marketing strategies should be second. If you are spreading the message, you don't have to sell it (pun intended) because the Holy Spirit speaks for Himself!!

That is why I prefer to listen to "conscious" music which eliminates this conflict of interest by not pigeon holing the artists into the "Christian Music" category.  Bob Marley or Toots and Maytals very much incorporate literally gospel music into their own music, and yet they are not overtly or openly "Gospel artists" they are simply musicians, whose bottom line is to spread their art and make a living.  Their art reflects their religion, but it is not exclusively "religious art" because it incorporates other kinds of music, love songs, protest songs, dance songs, etc etc..

My beef with Christian music is more so with the Christian music industry then with the individual Christian artists who may very well be as duped as the audience who listen to preachers and throw away their records and replace them with records they bought in the Church gift-shop (considering how much money music generates, that must be a LOT OF PROFIT $$$)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2011, 05:13:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am sorry folks misunderstood my critiques of "Gospel Rap"  as I didn't intend to "make fun of" or disraspect any of those artists.  My criticism was not about all Gospel rappers, more so a specifically crass genre of overtly commercialized and "marketed to Christians from the pulpit" Christian music of any-genre which is both fake and exploitative.  There are music producers who literally search for the "next big hit" in "Christian" music, but not with the intentions of preaching Christ through the Gospel music, rather simply to manipulate concerned Christians to buy their records.  As a musician, that is in horrifyingly poor taste and insulting to artists' art.  People shouldn't buy art because it is a cookie-cutter ready made Christianized alternative, they should buy art because they sincerely enjoy the art.  Art shouldn't be in anyway limited by ideology, because ideology will interpret art anyways.  If folks are Christian, they will see Christ in a Marilyn Manson album, they don't specifically need Christianized versions of their art.  If there are sincere Christian bands and artists out there who make art for arts sake, and their art happens to be Christian, big up to these artists, (from one musician to another) but to those imitators out there pretending to be rockers or rappers simply to sell "Christian albums" to Christian kids that is a shame.  I am against ALL exploitative aspects of the music industry, be it mainstream corporate fleecing of artists royalties or abusive marketing strategies of "Christian" music.  I have heard preachers from the pulpit DEMAND that ALL their congregation THROW out ALL THEIR "SECULAR MUSIC" and then casually mentioned they can go into the gift shop and purchase ready-made Christian alternatives.  That is shameful, who makes that money?  I am sorry, that is an embarrassing conflict of interest, I never even heard the term "secular music" until some money hungry churches starting asking people to throw away their music.

IT IS NEVER CHRISTIAN TO GUILT ANOTHER CHRISTIAN INTO BUYING SOMETHING

If one genre of artists manipulated their audience to systematically reject ALL other artists and genres solely to purchase albums from their discography and collect all the money as well, that is exploitation and that is wrong. It is not that all Gospel artists or Christian musicians or Christian rappers are doing this, but a lot of the pastors, producers, and distributors in their "Christian music industry" are and that is by no means Christian.  Sincere Gospel music should be about preaching the Gospel, and making money through marketing strategies should be second. If you are spreading the message, you don't have to sell it (pun intended) because the Holy Spirit speaks for Himself!!

That is why I prefer to listen to "conscious" music which eliminates this conflict of interest by not pigeon holing the artists into the "Christian Music" category.  Bob Marley or Toots and Maytals very much incorporate literally gospel music into their own music, and yet they are not overtly or openly "Gospel artists" they are simply musicians, whose bottom line is to spread their art and make a living.  Their art reflects their religion, but it is not exclusively "religious art" because it incorporates other kinds of music, love songs, protest songs, dance songs, etc etc..

My beef with Christian music is more so with the Christian music industry then with the individual Christian artists who may very well be as duped as the audience who listen to preachers and throw away their records and replace them with records they bought in the Church gift-shop (considering how much money music generates, that must be a LOT OF PROFIT $$$)

stay blessed,
habte selassie


We are in agreement here bredren.



Selam
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2011, 12:03:40 AM »

HabteSelassie,

You have set up a bogeyman class of "Gospel artists" whose foremost inspiration to pursue music per se and/or music based on the message of the Gospel is commercial gain.

Whilst I'm sure that there are some such artists out there you have no way of objectively proving which Gospel artist falls under such a category unless you have divine insight into the hearts and minds of men. Many Gospel rap artists explicitly condemn commercialisation in their music, and I have no reason to assume they are not being sincere.
 
Quote
If folks are Christian, they will see Christ in a Marilyn Manson album, they don't specifically need Christianized versions of their art.

Explicitly Christianising things of the world (including art) is in the spirit of Orthodoxy. The Church has a long history of doing so.

Quote
That is why I prefer to listen to "conscious" music which eliminates this conflict of interest by not pigeon holing the artists into the "Christian Music" category.


Right. They're just pigeon-holed into the "conscious music" category. Which is kind of like the "Christian music" category, except the music is not strictly based on the Christian faith and so can, and often does, contradict such. But that's okay, because it is preferable for a Christian to try and take a conscious rapper's lyrics out of context and force them into a Christian context in his own mind than to simply listen to a Gospel rapper's lyrics which are unequivocally Christian. Right?
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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2011, 12:10:34 AM »

Btw, Jahaziel heard about what you've been writing here all the way from the UK and so he wrote this little song dedicated to you explaining why he does what he does. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMnWXz1CYg

^Notice also the simple yet legitimate jab he takes at "conscious music":
 
Some people say that [my music's] "positive", "conscious" or "inspirational";
Some say it's "uplifting", while others say "motivational";
But, as much as I'd say that it's all the above;
I consider my music useless if that's all that it does;
I write with the hope that you'll be falling in love;
With the Lord of Hosts; see Him on the Cross pouring His Love.

(In case you want to question his sincerity, please take note of the fact that you can download the album from which this song was taken for free from his official website).
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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2011, 12:25:33 AM »

He had a good poetic flow, that's my only opinion Tongue

There are is a lot of good Christian hip hop out there and it isn't too difficult to find.
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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2011, 12:56:53 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Btw, Jahaziel heard about what you've been writing here all the way from the UK and so he wrote this little song dedicated to you explaining why he does what he does. Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMnWXz1CYg

^Notice also the simple yet legitimate jab he takes at "conscious music":
 
Some people say that [my music's] "positive", "conscious" or "inspirational";
Some say it's "uplifting", while others say "motivational";
But, as much as I'd say that it's all the above;
I consider my music useless if that's all that it does;
I write with the hope that you'll be falling in love;
With the Lord of Hosts; see Him on the Cross pouring His Love.

(In case you want to question his sincerity, please take note of the fact that you can download the album from which this song was taken for free from his official website).


How Christian of y'all to spark an immature rap battle over the internet, I'm honored Wink


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2011, 03:07:44 AM »

Thread needs more:



Power and Equality to all my black-asiatic gawds and erfs!
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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2011, 03:19:21 AM »

Nicholas, that's not very bredrenly of you.
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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2011, 06:50:38 AM »

HabteSelassie,


Everything will have trappings, and there will always be a negative side to things. But I know from personal experience that the good things far outweigh anything negative you can think of about the genre. Christian rap single handedly saved my life in high-school and college from a life that a number of my close childhood friends(who made fun of me in 1994/1995 and 96 when I told them that I was now listening to christian rap) fell into! A life of drugs, sexual promiscuity, thuggery, gangs, and unnecessary violence. And for that I will always be thankful!  

Also, protestant preachers saying stuff like that about quote on quote ""secular music"" is nothing new. It might have something to do with the English Puritan influence on many English speaking protestant groups.




NicholasMyra,

Even-though I like some of Wu-Tang Clans stuff, the religious group that they belong to, The 5% Nation of gods and earths are a black supremacist splinter religious group. They came from another black supremacist group called the Nation of Islam, and they in turn came from another Black supremacist group called the Moorish Science Temple of America, in which the symbol from the gold chain in the picture comes from.

I have to deal with such groups on the ground here in Pittsburgh for the same people I am trying to reach they are also trying to reach. When you talk to real people on the ground and listen to what they have to say then you will see that a number of different religious groups, and political philosophies do indeed influence people, in not only what they say, but also in how they think and live.


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« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2011, 09:42:01 AM »

Sheesh, you people need to get some taste in music quick.

First Tupac then that absurd "Christian" stuff.

lulz.

Open mic night at White Castle is better than this nonsense.



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« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2011, 11:03:42 AM »

Sheesh, you people need to get some taste in music quick.

First Tupac then that absurd "Christian" stuff.

lulz.

Open mic night at White Castle is better than this nonsense.





+1,000

PP
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« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2011, 11:36:45 AM »

Sheesh, you people need to get some taste in music quick.

First Tupac then that absurd "Christian" stuff.

lulz.

Open mic night at White Castle is better than this nonsense.





+1,000

PP

Before you get too excited with your pom-poms there PP, I thought you might be interested to listen to an example of orthonorm's idea of good music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faiER856zQU

See, he doesn't hate all Hip-Hop like you do; he's just more into that raw stuff about daughters shooting their abusive fathers while they're dressed up as Santa at a Macy's store. He will not have any of that glorifying God and bearing witness to the message of the Gospel nonsense in his Hip-Hop.

"Ain't a fellow head on this board"...right orthonorm?

Now, to everyone who has felt inclined to post strictly to express their distaste for Hip-Hop in general or Christian rap in particular; please, there are better ways to get that attention you seem to be so hungry for. Have you tried walking into an airport with a bulky package under your coat screaming that you have a bomb? Trust me, you'll get thousands of people who will take great interest in what you're saying. Compare that to the zero people in this internet discussion thread who care about your uninvited and unconstructive opinion on their musical taste. That's a difference of thousands!
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« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2011, 11:41:17 AM »

I was simply approving of what he stated. Not his taste in music.

I make no apology. I hate hip-hop and rap. I think it is silly.

Quote
Now, to everyone who has felt inclined to post strictly to express their distaste for Hip-Hop in general or Christian rap in particular; please, there are better ways to get that attention you seem to be so hungry for. Have you tried walking into an airport with a bulky package under your coat screaming that you have a bomb? Trust me, you'll get thousands of people who will take great interest in what you're saying. Compare that to the zero people in this internet discussion thread who care about your uninvited and unconstructive opinion on their musical taste. That's a difference of thousands!
Its how a message board flows. Rarely do things stay on topic for longer than 30 posts. But just so you dont pop and scream from rage, I'll try to steer the boat back on course......Tupac sucked.

PP
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« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2011, 11:43:58 AM »

That has to be the first time I've ever heard De La Soul called "raw".
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« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2011, 12:04:30 PM »

Dunno....

But his name backwards spells "Caput".
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2011, 12:49:08 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Sheesh, you people need to get some taste in music quick.

First Tupac then that absurd "Christian" stuff.

lulz.

Open mic night at White Castle is better than this nonsense.





+1,000

PP

Before you get too excited with your pom-poms there PP, I thought you might be interested to listen to an example of orthonorm's idea of good music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faiER856zQU

See, he doesn't hate all Hip-Hop like you do; he's just more into that raw stuff about daughters shooting their abusive fathers while they're dressed up as Santa at a Macy's store. He will not have any of that glorifying God and bearing witness to the message of the Gospel nonsense in his Hip-Hop.

"Ain't a fellow head on this board"...right orthonorm?

Now, to everyone who has felt inclined to post strictly to express their distaste for Hip-Hop in general or Christian rap in particular; please, there are better ways to get that attention you seem to be so hungry for. Have you tried walking into an airport with a bulky package under your coat screaming that you have a bomb? Trust me, you'll get thousands of people who will take great interest in what you're saying. Compare that to the zero people in this internet discussion thread who care about your uninvited and unconstructive opinion on their musical taste. That's a difference of thousands!

How funny, its not surprising to me that the OC.net ain't got any love for Tupac, but I bet you're sure surprised ain't nobody seem to be feelin that Gospel rap you bump yo Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2011, 03:19:36 PM »

NicholasMyra,

Even-though I like some of Wu-Tang Clans stuff, the religious group that they belong to, The 5% Nation of gods and earths are a black supremacist splinter religious group. They came from another black supremacist group called the Nation of Islam, and they in turn came from another Black supremacist group called the Moorish Science Temple of America, in which the symbol from the gold chain in the picture comes from.
Yes, Jnorm. Luckily RZA is not as into it as he used to be.
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2011, 04:34:36 PM »

I think that Christian music does have a legitimate presence in FFA-Religious Topics. Can we concentrate more on its impact on generations other than mine? Even though I dislike rap of all kind and do not like Cristian rock/contemporary music, I am aware that the younger generation does not share my feelings.
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2011, 04:35:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Sheesh, you people need to get some taste in music quick.

First Tupac then that absurd "Christian" stuff.

lulz.

Open mic night at White Castle is better than this nonsense.





+1,000

PP

Before you get too excited with your pom-poms there PP, I thought you might be interested to listen to an example of orthonorm's idea of good music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faiER856zQU

See, he doesn't hate all Hip-Hop like you do; he's just more into that raw stuff about daughters shooting their abusive fathers while they're dressed up as Santa at a Macy's store. He will not have any of that glorifying God and bearing witness to the message of the Gospel nonsense in his Hip-Hop.

"Ain't a fellow head on this board"...right orthonorm?

Now, to everyone who has felt inclined to post strictly to express their distaste for Hip-Hop in general or Christian rap in particular; please, there are better ways to get that attention you seem to be so hungry for. Have you tried walking into an airport with a bulky package under your coat screaming that you have a bomb? Trust me, you'll get thousands of people who will take great interest in what you're saying. Compare that to the zero people in this internet discussion thread who care about your uninvited and unconstructive opinion on their musical taste. That's a difference of thousands!

How funny, its not surprising to me that the OC.net ain't got any love for Tupac, but I bet you're sure surprised ain't nobody seem to be feelin that Gospel rap you bump yo Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Hapte--Could you please translate "to be feelin that Gospel rap you bump yo"?
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2011, 06:06:49 PM »

Selam to all.

I have to commend both Jenorm and EA for supporting Christian Artists, who are doing what they can to evangelize the audience that particularly loves the hip hop and rap genre. They are the REAL messengers of peace, love, brotherhood, and the lifting up of the humanity of the person in Christ whatever his/her race may happen to be. We know what the others are singing about, their fruit is the evidence, their music and its message is one of the many reasons that thousands are dying on the streets today victims of the glorified thuggish life .

What we see with the Christian artists like you guys said is a wonderful thing; they need to be encouraged for reaching out to those who can be reached with their music. I cannot tell anyone what to do however I for one am all in favor of taking away all the monetary support of those “secular and Violent” artists and I believe that if a person is Christian they should put their money where their heart is,  help the Christian laborer, who labors in the service of the Gospel to continue to do what he or she is capable of doing. Do not spend your money to listen to or help disseminate that kind of music and its message of violence and hate; do not support the messengers of immorality and death. We all know that those secular rappers are so much against the Christian rappers for one MAIN reason; it’s their own version of PR and hitting the competition for THE Money! Nothing else but money, the Christians have a different message from the others, and for this reason, the clash of massage makes it essential for the Christian to choose what he or she will listen to and help grow. However the thug life propagators cannot support their message other than the lame excuse of calling it ‘real’ where as they try to defame the Christians as “unreal” and yet for Christians the message of the Gospel is REAL! The message of the human rising above the beast is being A REAL HUMAN BEING! The solution the Gospel offers both in this world and the next is REAL!


God bless,
Hiwot
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« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2011, 06:36:33 PM »

Did someone seriously just call out De La Soul?

Wow.
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« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2011, 12:30:39 AM »

Yeah, I'm calling them out. The only message I got out of that song is, "So, you think Christmas is that 'season to be jolly'? Let me take off your rose-tinted glasses for you and give you some insight into the disturbing evil and brokenness that plagues other lives at this time."
 
My response to that: "Can I please have my glasses back? They're not rose-tinted; they're tinted with the redeeming blood of He Who became man this Christmas day to live, die, and rise for the sake of saving the entire world of its evil and brokenness and giving it hope of eternal peace and joy. That is the perspective from which I have been called to see this world; so take that godless message of depressing hopelessness somewhere else this Christmas."

Some worthwhile Hip-Hop to listen to at Christmas time:

It's a hard knock life; you can't weed out the sorrow;
Still I believe the Sun will be out tomorrow;
I've got a right to think like this;
And my reason is connected to the season of Christ-mas;
'Cause though it doesn't seem right, one night this;
Place of low worth held the birth of One priceless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftjbMjw-HX0
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« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2011, 01:49:53 AM »

I think you have to ask yourself is this spiritually edifying.

Fr. Seraphim Rose in his "The Orthodox World View" talked about this kind of music.
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"There are two false approaches to life around us that many often make today, thinking that somehow this is what Orthodox Christians should be doing. One approach-- the most common one-- is simply to go along with the times: adapt yourself to rock music, modern fashions and tastes, and the whole rhythm of our jazzed-up modern life... This is wrong. The Christian must be different from the world, above all from today's weird, abnormal world, and this must be one of the basic things he knows as part of his Christian upbringing. Otherwise there is no point in calling ourselves Christian-- much less Orthodox Christian... The point is-- and it is a point that is absolutely necessary for our survival as Orthodox Christians today-- we must realize our situation as Orthodox Christians today-- we must realize deeply what times we live in, how little we actually know and feel our Orthodoxy, how far we are not just from the saints of ancient times, bt even form the ordinary Orthodox Christians of a hundred years or even a generation ago, and how much we must humble ourselves just to survive as Orthodox Christians today... Anyone who has come to realize how deep Orthodoxy is, and how full is the commitment which is required of the serious Orthodox Christian, and likewise what totalitarian demands the contemporary world makes on us, will easliy see how wrong this opinion is. One is Orthodox all the time every day, in every situation of life, or one is not really Orthodox at all. Our Orthodoxy is revealed not just in our strictly religious views, but in everything we must do and say.... Therefore, our attitude, beginning right now, must be down-to-earth and normal. Let us not be afraid of being considered a little "crazy" by the world and let us continue to practice Christian love and forgiveness which the world can never understand, but which in its heart it needs and craves. Finally, our Christian attitude must be what, for want of a better word, I would call innocent. Today the world places a high value on sophistication, on being worldy-wise, on being a "professional." Orthodoxy places no value on these qualities; they kill the Christian soul... We needn't be ignorant of what goes on in the world and in the Church-- in fact, for our own selves we have to know-- but our knowledge must be practical and simple and single minded, not sophisticated and wordly. If we truly live this Orthodox world-view, our Faith will survive the shocks ahead of us and be a source of inspiration and salvation for those who will still be seeking Christ even amidst the shipwreck of humanity which has already begun today."
In my opinion Tupac just doesn't fit the description as something an Orthodox Christian should be listening to. I think one needs to look at contemporary music and judge just what kind of lessons they want to take from it.  Just in my personal experience, anything I'm listening to driving home from liturgy-- which is usually a two and a half hour drive-- if it isn't AFR or Orthodox music, just doesn't mesh with the sound I had just had in my ears. Whenever I would try to listen to something secular after liturgy, would just conflict with the peace and love I had from just being in the church. Listen to whatever music you like, but understand, if it's outside of the church, it might not be good for you.
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« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2011, 04:53:30 AM »

Amen Fr. Seraphim Rose.
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« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2011, 06:49:55 AM »

Another friend of mine recently made a song about Tim Tebow!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzuyrT2uE8 (TEBOWIN' A Tribute to Tim Tebow by Hip Hop Artist Brinson)

He was just interviewed about the song by ESPN:
http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/index?id=7388166 (Even Christian Faith-based MC has TimTebow Song)


This is one of his older videos from a few years back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaRgKATV74 (Solar Powered Brinson feat D.M.A.U (Gospel Rap))


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« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2011, 07:07:08 AM »

Is there not something to be said here about Tupac's ability to create music that people can relate to?

Surely he has a certain ability to evoke emotion and feeling through his music. Those feelings and emotions may not be distinctively Christian, but they can be distinctively 'human' and can relate to any of us.

Don't get me wrong. I don't appreciate 99% of his music.

But there needs to be something said for secular -- or at least not overtly Christian -- music that has the ability to make us feel and think.
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« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2011, 07:27:52 AM »

Manalive and Achronos,


Do you watch TV, and Movies?

Do you play video games?


If so then you really can't pull the monk card on us. Anyone who dislikes rap or even christian rap, but still listens to secular rock, pop, country......etc. Or even watch tv, movies, and play video games really can't say anything to those who listen to rap music.


Maybe if you stopped listening to country, rock, pop....et. And stopped watching the tube, movies and stopped playing video games then I would care what your musical tastes were, but until then It really doesn't matter what your thoughts are about rap music. Nor does it matter what your thoughts are about christian rap music for I know what this music can do. Not only in my own life, but also in the life of others. And at the end of the day this is the bottom line. For how many people have you helped get off drugs? Get out of gangs? Get out of a violent life style? How many people have you helped wait to have sex till marriage or helped in not wanting to get an abortion?

Yeah, alot of people may not like this kind of music, but that's their own personal preference. And so to put a spiritual guilt trip on someone else for listening to rap music is hypocritical if you still listen to non church music yourself of any genre. It is even hypocritical if you still watch non-church tv shows, and movies. It is hypocritical if you are pulling this card while playing modern video games. And so use it when you become a monk yourself.


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« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2011, 07:30:25 AM »

Selam to all.

I have to commend both Jenorm and EA for supporting Christian Artists, who are doing what they can to evangelize the audience that particularly loves the hip hop and rap genre. They are the REAL messengers of peace, love, brotherhood, and the lifting up of the humanity of the person in Christ whatever his/her race may happen to be. We know what the others are singing about, their fruit is the evidence, their music and its message is one of the many reasons that thousands are dying on the streets today victims of the glorified thuggish life .

What we see with the Christian artists like you guys said is a wonderful thing; they need to be encouraged for reaching out to those who can be reached with their music. I cannot tell anyone what to do however I for one am all in favor of taking away all the monetary support of those “secular and Violent” artists and I believe that if a person is Christian they should put their money where their heart is,  help the Christian laborer, who labors in the service of the Gospel to continue to do what he or she is capable of doing. Do not spend your money to listen to or help disseminate that kind of music and its message of violence and hate; do not support the messengers of immorality and death. We all know that those secular rappers are so much against the Christian rappers for one MAIN reason; it’s their own version of PR and hitting the competition for THE Money! Nothing else but money, the Christians have a different message from the others, and for this reason, the clash of massage makes it essential for the Christian to choose what he or she will listen to and help grow. However the thug life propagators cannot support their message other than the lame excuse of calling it ‘real’ where as they try to defame the Christians as “unreal” and yet for Christians the message of the Gospel is REAL! The message of the human rising above the beast is being A REAL HUMAN BEING! The solution the Gospel offers both in this world and the next is REAL!


God bless,
Hiwot

Amen sis! Amen!
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« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2011, 10:57:35 AM »

jnorm, my apologies for offending you. My post was in response to the music Tupac represents not this Christian rap that you happen to like. I was not saying don't listen, read, or watch secular things-- neither is Fr. Seraphim. I said judge for yourself what kind of music you listen to. If it's spiritually edifying, then there probably isn't any harm in it. The point was that a Christian ought to be different from the world. I never once said don't have anything to do with the secular. The card you are saying I pulled is not the card I am pulling. Also, I am pretty sure there are people who aren't monks that don't play videogames or listen to the type of music Tupac represents.

Everyone struggles to live an Orthodox lifestyle. Lord knows how much I do. For your consideration, I listen to classical and orthodox music; I don't have cable or satelite tv; I limit myself to what kind of dvd's I watch; I don't read books that are post-modern, vulgar, or grotesque; And I haven't owned or played video games in over a year. That is my lifestyle. I would never think nor tell someone I'm living the way a Christian should. All I am saying is discern for yourself what is spiritually edifying.

Manalive and Achronos,


Do you watch TV, and Movies?

Do you play video games?


If so then you really can't pull the monk card on us. Anyone who dislikes rap or even christian rap, but still listens to secular rock, pop, country......etc. Or even watch tv, movies, and play video games really can't say anything to those who listen to rap music.


Maybe if you stopped listening to country, rock, pop....et. And stopped watching the tube, movies and stopped playing video games then I would care what your musical tastes were, but until then It really doesn't matter what your thoughts are about rap music. Nor does it matter what your thoughts are about christian rap music for I know what this music can do. Not only in my own life, but also in the life of others. And at the end of the day this is the bottom line. For how many people have you helped get off drugs? Get out of gangs? Get out of a violent life style? How many people have you helped wait to have sex till marriage or helped in not wanting to get an abortion?

Yeah, alot of people may not like this kind of music, but that's their own personal preference. And so to put a spiritual guilt trip on someone else for listening to rap music is hypocritical if you still listen to non church music yourself of any genre. It is even hypocritical if you still watch non-church tv shows, and movies. It is hypocritical if you are pulling this card while playing modern video games. And so use it when you become a monk yourself.



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« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2011, 02:38:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Is there not something to be said here about Tupac's ability to create music that people can relate to?

Surely he has a certain ability to evoke emotion and feeling through his music. Those feelings and emotions may not be distinctively Christian, but they can be distinctively 'human' and can relate to any of us.

Don't get me wrong. I don't appreciate 99% of his music.

But there needs to be something said for secular -- or at least not overtly Christian -- music that has the ability to make us feel and think.

Amen Amen!  I smell you on that one, that was really part of the point of why I posted this thread, but a lot of folks clearly disagree with Tupac being considered an "artist", but like I said in the OP, I read a plurality of novels because they contain the depth of the human experience, and my music library is equally as diverse as my bookshelf.  I agree completely with  Manalive's sentiments that "if it isn't Orthodox it might not be good for you" but if we ourselves are Orthodox the Grace can survive.  As for me, I listen to diverse musics and read diverse literature because I want to challenge and confront those diverse aspects of my personality, both those that are perfectly Orthodox and those idiosyncrasies which need to readjust.  If the Church is a spiritual hospital, for me, listening to music and reading novels is a way to exercise my therapy and bring out underlying  questions and issues of my psychology to the surface.  This is why killing, robbing, and adultery saturate the Bible, not simply as warnings, but literary vehicles for spiritual growth as the stories challenge us to dive deep into our experience of God to make sense of our experience of ourselves.


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2013, 06:54:55 PM »

Knowing that Pac chose the thug life makes "Changes" the greatest parody song about streetz life ever.

Good sampling of The Way It Is though.

Im listening to Keep Ya Head Up, which is a song I do like from him.

Always been more of a Biggie Smalls fan
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« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2013, 08:17:08 PM »

I like Biggie. I like Tupac too, but I love Biggie.
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« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2013, 08:24:28 PM »

I like Biggie. I like Tupac too, but I love Biggie.
I was reading up on someone saying Rakim was overrated. That's crazy.

His 2nd album with Eric B is better than Paid in Full.
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« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2013, 04:16:25 PM »

I like Tupac's socially conscious music before he signed to Death Row, then he sort of became West Coast garbage. Me Against the World was his best album, imo. Either way, I think that Ice Cube was still a better rapper for the West Coast and probably one of the most influental rappers of all time--definitely top 5 GOAT.

Rakim is garbage; extremely boring and choppy flow and repetitive references to his Islamic faith. The only good thing about him are his revolutionary rhyme schemes. Same with Nas; the guy is so dull and boring. One good album and then he became garbage. Kool G Rap is better than both, along with Big Pun whose flow was untouchable.
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