Gisasargavak
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Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Church - Holy See of Echmiadzin
Posts: 137
Առէ'ք, Կերէ'ք այս է մարմին իմ:
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« on: December 22, 2011, 12:34:50 AM » |
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Hi all.
So the church in addition to a regular choir has a secular choir consisting of those who dont necessarily attend church often. Well it was decided that we should sing in the sanctuary because thats where one of the concerts will take place. The people entered the church basically screaming and yelling, didnt make the sign of the cross, came in drinking their coffees etc. To add insult to injury we were situated in such a way that we were standing in front of the altar and some decided it was Ok to actually sit on the altar. After a few minutes I raised my hand and explained to the conductor that God is literally present here and thus it is not appropriate to sit on the altar. well after a few snide remarks he agreed but then after the practice told me not to say it in public because it might offend people and lead them to not come to the choir anymore.
So my question is was I wrong in saying this?
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ialmisry
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 12:40:00 AM » |
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Hi all.
So the church in addition to a regular choir has a secular choir consisting of those who dont necessarily attend church often. Well it was decided that we should sing in the sanctuary because thats where one of the concerts will take place. The people entered the church basically screaming and yelling, didnt make the sign of the cross, came in drinking their coffees etc. To add insult to injury we were situated in such a way that we were standing in front of the altar and some decided it was Ok to actually sit on the altar. After a few minutes I raised my hand and explained to the conductor that God is literally present here and thus it is not appropriate to sit on the altar. well after a few snide remarks he agreed but then after the practice told me not to say it in public because it might offend people and lead them to not come to the choir anymore.
So my question is was I wrong in saying this?
Not only were you right, you were absolutely kind if it happened as you say. I would have been like this  |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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quietmorning
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 12:46:56 AM » |
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You were not only right - but in addition to protecting what is holy and calling for reverence - you were actually protecting them. (Thinks of those that dared touch the Ark when they weren't supposed to.) Though I'm sure they didn't see it that way.
Sounds like they need a briefing before they are allowed into the Sanctuary again to ensure respect. At the very least - "no food and drink, hushed voices unless absolutely necessary, and be respectful, this is a place of worship, (edit) and we are the guests of those who worship here. "
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:49:07 AM by quietmorning »
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In His Mercy,
BethAnna
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LBK
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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2011, 12:50:55 AM » |
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You were dead right, G. And the choirmaster's comment about offending people etc is simply contemptible. And I'm with Isa on this - I wouldn't have held back in turfing them out.
What was the priest's reaction when he found out what happened?
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:54:18 AM by LBK »
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Jason.Wike
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2011, 12:51:06 AM » |
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You were not wrong, and they have no right to be offended about you asking to give respect. Its not but popular relativism at work, 'its only holy in people's minds', so its not actually offensive for people to sit on it, in their minds.
Only Christians are expected to pretend they don't believe their religion is true...
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:51:46 AM by Jason.Wike »
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Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
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Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959
Job 19:25-27
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 12:52:15 AM » |
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Thank you Isa! you said what I wanted to say!
I am furious that they even allowed them to get close to the altar let alone lean then sit on it?!!! Isa is right you were extremely kind to them!!! if it were me, it would have been a different unpleasant scene,not to mention the sight of me yelling of get the heck out!!!
Please make sure this dose not happen again. those who enter must enter with reverence, or not at all. do not worry about diplomacy on this case. this is not up for negotiation!
Edit : because I am pissed , @ that Choir master, tell him that it is not his mother's kitchen where he gets to play Mr nice guy. he better man up, This is the Altar of the Lord!
Lord have mercy !
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:09:28 AM by Hiwot »
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!
Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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Ionnis
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 12:55:52 AM » |
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No, not wrong at all. Lord have mercy.
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"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.” -The Divine John Chrysostom
“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
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biro
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2011, 12:59:04 AM » |
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I think you handled it well. I get very cross when people are rude. Here's hoping they don't make the same mistake twice.
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He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.
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Riddikulus
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 01:33:43 AM » |
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What were they doing in the Sanctury?  |
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I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.
Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
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jnorm888
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 02:05:16 AM » |
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Hi all.
So the church in addition to a regular choir has a secular choir consisting of those who dont necessarily attend church often. Well it was decided that we should sing in the sanctuary because thats where one of the concerts will take place. The people entered the church basically screaming and yelling, didnt make the sign of the cross, came in drinking their coffees etc. To add insult to injury we were situated in such a way that we were standing in front of the altar and some decided it was Ok to actually sit on the altar. After a few minutes I raised my hand and explained to the conductor that God is literally present here and thus it is not appropriate to sit on the altar. well after a few snide remarks he agreed but then after the practice told me not to say it in public because it might offend people and lead them to not come to the choir anymore.
So my question is was I wrong in saying this?
You were in the right! If good people say and do nothing then evil will be left unchecked and un-regulated! |
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« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 02:06:01 AM by jnorm888 »
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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D. http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/ |
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Melodist
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 03:03:19 AM » |
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That needed to be stopped.
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2011, 04:05:44 AM » |
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What were they doing in the Sanctury? Yeah, who even allowed this in the first place? |
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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Irish Melkite
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 04:29:39 AM » |
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You were absolutely correct, but I'm with akimori in not understanding how this entire scenario was even allowed to develop.
What is this secular choir supposed to be about - what is its purpose - what is it gong to sing - when is it going to sing - and why? Is there some hope that involving these non-attendees is going to become an avenue by which they'll return to church-going? (If so, it's not exactly off to a rousing start!)
Or is this simply a created socio-cultural event into which the parish got roped since folk see it as a natural 'cultural center' around which all events should be organized - the typical 'ethnicity is us' and 'the temple is our clubhouse' outlook that too often pervades Eastern and Oriental Churches of all the Communions?
Many years,
Neil
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"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."
- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
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Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959
Job 19:25-27
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 12:14:29 PM » |
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You were absolutely correct, but I'm with akimori in not understanding how this entire scenario was even allowed to develop.
What is this secular choir supposed to be about - what is its purpose - what is it gong to sing - when is it going to sing - and why? Is there some hope that involving these non-attendees is going to become an avenue by which they'll return to church-going? (If so, it's not exactly off to a rousing start!)
Or is this simply a created socio-cultural event into which the parish got roped since folk see it as a natural 'cultural center' around which all events should be organized - the typical 'ethnicity is us' and 'the temple is our clubhouse' outlook that too often pervades Eastern and Oriental Churches of all the Communions?
Many years,
Neil
oh this just made my day! seriously! when someone gets it like this and puts it in few yet expressive words! it breaks my heart when I see how the Church is being treated like a historical museum and ethnic clubhouse! the result is events like these. sad really! Christ is Risen! |
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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!
Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 12:30:18 PM » |
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Hi all.
So the church in addition to a regular choir has a secular choir consisting of those who dont necessarily attend church often. Well it was decided that we should sing in the sanctuary because thats where one of the concerts will take place. The people entered the church basically screaming and yelling, didnt make the sign of the cross, came in drinking their coffees etc. To add insult to injury we were situated in such a way that we were standing in front of the altar and some decided it was Ok to actually sit on the altar. After a few minutes I raised my hand and explained to the conductor that God is literally present here and thus it is not appropriate to sit on the altar. well after a few snide remarks he agreed but then after the practice told me not to say it in public because it might offend people and lead them to not come to the choir anymore.
So my question is was I wrong in saying this?
IMHO you did the right thing. You were protecting them from a sacrilege.. |
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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primuspilus
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2011, 01:55:46 PM » |
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You were very much in the right. I think that its a sign of the times. Things are sacred until someone might get offended.....
Im with Isa too, lay the saintly smackdown
PP
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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