Author Topic: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos  (Read 1059 times)

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« on: December 07, 2011, 03:07:38 PM »
On December 8th, the Eastern Orthodox Church celebrates the feast of the Conception of the Theotokos (a polyelei rank feast, though not numbered among the 12 Great Feasts).

On December 9th, the Roman Catholic Church celebrates the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

These are historically the same feast (though it was elevated in the West post-schism with the formation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception), but they are celebrated on different days. I can find information that says the Eastern date is older, and it was later changed in the West, but I can't find information on when exactly the change occurred or why. I was wondering if anyone knew why the date was moved, especially only one day? Further, what is the practice of the Eastern Catholic Churches for this feast? All information is appreciated!

Thanks!
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 03:32:55 PM »
I think you have the 8th and 9th reversed.

Can't answer all your questions, but it should be noted that we commemorate three conceptions and births: of Jesus Mar 25 - Dec 25, exactly nine months; of John the Baptist Sept 23 - June 24, nine months plus a day; of the Theotokos Dec 9 - Sept 8, nine months less a day. There is a lesson in there somewhere. I can speculate, but others are more likely to give a patristic and historical explanation.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 03:41:22 PM »
I think you have the 8th and 9th reversed.

Can't answer all your questions, but it should be noted that we commemorate three conceptions and births: of Jesus Mar 25 - Dec 25, exactly nine months; of John the Baptist Sept 23 - June 24, nine months plus a day; of the Theotokos Dec 9 - Sept 8, nine months less a day. There is a lesson in there somewhere. I can speculate, but others are more likely to give a patristic and historical explanation.

Oops! You're right! We celebrate the feast on the 9th, the RCC on the 8th.

And I definitely agree with your point. I found that very interesting when I found out.
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Offline Orest

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 04:30:07 PM »
I think you have the 8th and 9th reversed.

Can't answer all your questions, but it should be noted that we commemorate three conceptions and births: of Jesus Mar 25 - Dec 25, exactly nine months; of John the Baptist Sept 23 - June 24, nine months plus a day; of the Theotokos Dec 9 - Sept 8, nine months less a day. There is a lesson in there somewhere. I can speculate, but others are more likely to give a patristic and historical explanation.

Oops! You're right! We celebrate the feast on the 9th, the RCC on the 8th.

And I definitely agree with your point. I found that very interesting when I found out.

I think the answer is in the book by Fr. Thomas Hopko called something like "The Winter Lent" with all the documentation and quotes etc.

In a nutshell, when a child is conceived naturally, no one can predict the exact date of delivery.  The lesson is that both the Theotokos and St. John the Forerunner were conceived naturally as all humans are.  However, Chjrist was not and that is why His birth is exactly 9 months to the day.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 08:52:57 AM »
I think you have the 8th and 9th reversed.

Can't answer all your questions, but it should be noted that we commemorate three conceptions and births: of Jesus Mar 25 - Dec 25, exactly nine months; of John the Baptist Sept 23 - June 24, nine months plus a day; of the Theotokos Dec 9 - Sept 8, nine months less a day. There is a lesson in there somewhere. I can speculate, but others are more likely to give a patristic and historical explanation.

Oops! You're right! We celebrate the feast on the 9th, the RCC on the 8th.

And I definitely agree with your point. I found that very interesting when I found out.

I think the answer is in the book by Fr. Thomas Hopko called something like "The Winter Lent" with all the documentation and quotes etc.

In a nutshell, when a child is conceived naturally, no one can predict the exact date of delivery.  The lesson is that both the Theotokos and St. John the Forerunner were conceived naturally as all humans are.  However, Chjrist was not and that is why His birth is exactly 9 months to the day.

Yes, I remember reading about that. The book is "The Winter Pascha." Very delightful devotional read! ;D
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Offline J.M.C

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 02:22:00 PM »
I think you have the 8th and 9th reversed.

Can't answer all your questions, but it should be noted that we commemorate three conceptions and births: of Jesus Mar 25 - Dec 25, exactly nine months; of John the Baptist Sept 23 - June 24, nine months plus a day; of the Theotokos Dec 9 - Sept 8, nine months less a day. There is a lesson in there somewhere. I can speculate, but others are more likely to give a patristic and historical explanation.

Oops! You're right! We celebrate the feast on the 9th, the RCC on the 8th.

And I definitely agree with your point. I found that very interesting when I found out.

If what you say about the Orthodox date being older is true, then it seems quite plausible that the RCC changed it so that the feastdays of Conception and Birth of the Theotokos are exactly 9 months apart, without the "imperfection" of being a day early. Obviously the perfect 9 month difference sits better with their own particular beliefs about the Mother of God's conception.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 02:52:51 PM »
Or it could be because the Latin Roman Catholicsare evil and they created a fake robot Mother of God who stands in the place of the real one on the wrong day. All Vatican lies. All of them.

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 you are hereby placed on official warning for using the word papist in this thread.  I modified it.  You know the rules, or at least should by now.  If you feel you didn't originally write the word papist in your post on the public forum in this thread then contact Fr. Chris, the administrator.  Username! Orthodox Catholic Discussion Moderator
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 07:58:48 PM »
Or it could be because the Latin Papists are evil and they created a fake robot Mother of God who stands in the place of the real one on the wrong day. All Vatican lies. All of them.

 :D

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 04:37:59 PM »
I think you have the 8th and 9th reversed.

Can't answer all your questions, but it should be noted that we commemorate three conceptions and births: of Jesus Mar 25 - Dec 25, exactly nine months; of John the Baptist Sept 23 - June 24, nine months plus a day; of the Theotokos Dec 9 - Sept 8, nine months less a day. There is a lesson in there somewhere. I can speculate, but others are more likely to give a patristic and historical explanation.

Oops! You're right! We celebrate the feast on the 9th, the RCC on the 8th.

And I definitely agree with your point. I found that very interesting when I found out.

If what you say about the Orthodox date being older is true, then it seems quite plausible that the RCC changed it so that the feastdays of Conception and Birth of the Theotokos are exactly 9 months apart, without the "imperfection" of being a day early. Obviously the perfect 9 month difference sits better with their own particular beliefs about the Mother of God's conception.

That would be easy enough to check if one can access a pre-1850 Benedictine Breviary. The Benedictines were more conservative in adding stuff to their calendar than the Franciscans and their ilk.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2011, 03:33:38 PM »
Or it could be because the Latin Roman Catholicsare evil and they created a fake robot Mother of God who stands in the place of the real one on the wrong day. All Vatican lies. All of them.

offensive word removed per oc.net rules and modified by Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator, username!
 you are hereby placed on official warning for using the word papist in this thread.  I modified it.  You know the rules, or at least should by now.  If you feel you didn't originally write the word papist in your post on the public forum in this thread then contact Fr. Chris, the administrator.  Username! Orthodox Catholic Discussion Moderator
Alveus, why are you so  offensive? I don't agree with Immaculate conception, because there is no original sin, but that is no reason to slam Catholics. A user made cracks about jews and got banned.

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2011, 03:39:52 PM »
I think you have the 8th and 9th reversed.

Can't answer all your questions, but it should be noted that we commemorate three conceptions and births: of Jesus Mar 25 - Dec 25, exactly nine months; of John the Baptist Sept 23 - June 24, nine months plus a day; of the Theotokos Dec 9 - Sept 8, nine months less a day. There is a lesson in there somewhere. I can speculate, but others are more likely to give a patristic and historical explanation.

Oops! You're right! We celebrate the feast on the 9th, the RCC on the 8th.

And I definitely agree with your point. I found that very interesting when I found out.

I think the answer is in the book by Fr. Thomas Hopko called something like "The Winter Lent" with all the documentation and quotes etc.

In a nutshell, when a child is conceived naturally, no one can predict the exact date of delivery.  The lesson is that both the Theotokos and St. John the Forerunner were conceived naturally as all humans are.  However, Chjrist was not and that is why His birth is exactly 9 months to the day.

As far as I know, this is precisely the explanation: Christ was perfect from the beginning, St. John and the Theotokos were almost, hence the notable difference of 9 months vs 9 mo. +/- 1 day between conception and birth celebrations.  It is also why, from the RC POV, you must celebrate her conception on Dec 8 instead of the 9th.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2011, 04:21:47 PM »
Or it could be because the Latin Roman Catholicsare evil and they created a fake robot Mother of God who stands in the place of the real one on the wrong day. All Vatican lies. All of them.

offensive word removed per oc.net rules and modified by Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator, username!
 you are hereby placed on official warning for using the word papist in this thread.  I modified it.  You know the rules, or at least should by now.  If you feel you didn't originally write the word papist in your post on the public forum in this thread then contact Fr. Chris, the administrator.  Username! Orthodox Catholic Discussion Moderator
Alveus, why are you so  offensive? I don't agree with Immaculate conception, because there is no original sin, but that is no reason to slam Catholics. A user made cracks about jews and got banned.
Anyone who has been around here long enough would know that Alveus is mocking those who think RCs are the cause of doom and gloom. I think it's safe to say that he wasn't serious.

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Differing Date: Conception of the Theotokos
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 12:40:47 AM »
Or it could be because the Latin Roman Catholicsare evil and they created a fake robot Mother of God who stands in the place of the real one on the wrong day. All Vatican lies. All of them.

offensive word removed per oc.net rules and modified by Orthodox-Catholic Discussion moderator, username!
 you are hereby placed on official warning for using the word papist in this thread.  I modified it.  You know the rules, or at least should by now.  If you feel you didn't originally write the word papist in your post on the public forum in this thread then contact Fr. Chris, the administrator.  Username! Orthodox Catholic Discussion Moderator
Alveus, why are you so  offensive? I don't agree with Immaculate conception, because there is no original sin, but that is no reason to slam Catholics. A user made cracks about jews and got banned.
Anyone who has been around here long enough would know that Alveus is mocking those who think RCs are the cause of doom and gloom. I think it's safe to say that he wasn't serious.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree. I didn't feel at all that he was actually being serious!

I think you have the 8th and 9th reversed.

Can't answer all your questions, but it should be noted that we commemorate three conceptions and births: of Jesus Mar 25 - Dec 25, exactly nine months; of John the Baptist Sept 23 - June 24, nine months plus a day; of the Theotokos Dec 9 - Sept 8, nine months less a day. There is a lesson in there somewhere. I can speculate, but others are more likely to give a patristic and historical explanation.

Oops! You're right! We celebrate the feast on the 9th, the RCC on the 8th.

And I definitely agree with your point. I found that very interesting when I found out.

I think the answer is in the book by Fr. Thomas Hopko called something like "The Winter Lent" with all the documentation and quotes etc.

In a nutshell, when a child is conceived naturally, no one can predict the exact date of delivery.  The lesson is that both the Theotokos and St. John the Forerunner were conceived naturally as all humans are.  However, Chjrist was not and that is why His birth is exactly 9 months to the day.

As far as I know, this is precisely the explanation: Christ was perfect from the beginning, St. John and the Theotokos were almost, hence the notable difference of 9 months vs 9 mo. +/- 1 day between conception and birth celebrations.  It is also why, from the RC POV, you must celebrate her conception on Dec 8 instead of the 9th.

Father, bless!

That definitely makes sense to me, given the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Assuming the Orthodox feast day is the original celebration date, it would be interesting to know exactly when it was changed in the West, since the IC was only dogmatized at Vatican I.
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