OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 24, 2014, 12:41:11 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Would this make sense ecclesiologically?  (Read 4219 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,605


« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2011, 04:47:32 PM »

Show me where we are taught that we can determine where the grace of God does and does not go. If you cannot demonstrate that, then this is nothing more than speculation on your part and on the part of the fathers. St. Cyril's warning that we should check all he has to say against scripture comes to mind here.

The Holy Spirit is “everywhere present and fillest all things.”  However, sacramental grace is another matter entirely.  So, the Holy Spirit may operate outside of the Church to bring those who are outside of the Church into the Church.  Remission of sins, theosis, and our entire salvation, however, depends upon the working of grace through the sacraments.  The Lord gave to his Apostles the power to “bind and loose”, saying “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”  This binding and loosing was given to the successors of the Apostles and the exercise of this right is most clearly manifested in the decisions of the Ecumenical and Pan-Orthodox Councils wherein certain beliefs, and/or those who hold such beliefs, are declared “anathema”, or cut off from the Church.  An example of such an anathema is the anathema of the Ecumenical Council against anyone who would alter the wording of the Creed.  The Eighth Ecumenical Council affirmed the fact that the Pope and his followers fell into heresy by adopting the Filioque, and subsequent Pan-Orthodox Councils have confirmed that the Pope and his followers are in fact anathema and outside of the Church.  In addition to the examples provided, here are some of the words from the Pan-Orthodox Council of 1583 at which the the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem decided:
=============
From the Tomos of Cyril Loukaris, Patriarch of Alexandria:

Therefore,since we are going to depart from here, we enjoin you,of your charity, to
stand firm in your piety and in your Orthodoxy. And as for such Latinizers
and corrupters of your consciences, let them not have so much as a hearing
from you, but reject them as heretics and enemies of your salvation
, whenever
they speak to you against these things that we write here below...

First, whoever does not confess with heart and mouth, and indeed, whoever
calls himself a Roman [Pωμαῖος, i.e., a Greek] and a child of the Eastern
Church, and is baptized in the Greek Christian manner, as we are, and then
does not confess that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone,
essentially and hypostatically, and that He proceeds from the Father and the
Son temporally: whoever does not confess thus, but says that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son, let him be outside our Church, let him
not have any communion with us, and let him be anathema
.

Secondly, whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of Communion the
laity, too, must partake of the precious and immaculate Body and Blood, but
instead says that they should commune only of the immaculate Body and not
of the Blood as well, let him be outside the Church and let him be anathema.

And in addition to this, whoever says that it is sufficient to partake only of the
Flesh, because therein is also the Blood, whereas Christ said and administered
each separately, and fails to observe these matters, let such persons be anathema.

Thirdly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Supper
had unleavened bread, like the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is, bread raised
by yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema, as one
holding Jewish views and as bringing the doctrines of Apollinarios and of the
Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

Fourthly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes to
judge, will not come for the sake of souls, but will come to sentence bodies, let him be anathema.

Fifthly, whoever says that the souls of Christians who have repented while
in this world but have failed to perform their penitential rule of prayer [ϰανό-
να], when they are parted from their bodies, go to the purgatorial fire, where
there is flame, torment, and punishment, which is a pagan Greek myth, let him be anathema, since they give Christians license to sin.

Sixthly, whoever says that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church, and
not Christ, let him be anathema.

Whoever opposes these precepts in order to overthrow and destroy them,
let him be anathema.

As for you, my Christians, I beseech you, for the Lord’s sake and for the
sake of what is profitable for your souls, to beware of these wolves, whoever
they may be, and to read this Tomos frequently in Church, so that you may be
familiar with the points on which such men are going to war against you.
Throughout their lives they have not learned anything other than to oppose us
Orthodox Christians, in order that destruction and ill-treatment might be
inflicted on our nation by Latins. Let us not listen to them, but let us stand
firm as far away as possible. Beseech God that you not enter into temptation
on account of the Faith. However, when there is great need, it is a sweet thing
for a man to shed his blood for the sake of piety. But in so great a matter, God
will not allow it, so that your enemies may prove wholly insignificant and, by
the Grace of Christ, ignorant and blind. Yet, guard yourselves and beware of
such men. May our Lord Jesus Christ help you, bless you, and grant you a
peaceful state, and at the same time may the prayer of your humble servant be
with all of you. Amen.

* Dositheos, Tόμος Ἀγάπης, pp. 552-554.


« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 04:52:08 PM by jah777 » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2011, 04:48:57 PM »

The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


As it has been noted:  Not all Orthodox believers agree with you.

Not all "Orthodox believers" agree with St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Basil the Great, St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, St. Paisius Velichkovsky, and others.  That is unfortunate, but not significant.   

That the Catholic Church falls under the wisdom of the fathers listed above has not been fully explored by universal Orthodoxy and decided without question or further issue...and to the extent it has been done locally, the results have been much less than consistent and no final answer has been rendered to date.

That is significant.

See St. Mark of Ephesus and his disciples, the encyclicals of the Eastern Patriarchs, etc. It's very clear the Roman Catholics are under anathema and not a part of the Church, from the Orthodox POV.

And here I thought it was Cardinal Humbertus who was anathematized and excommunicated, said anathema and excommunication having since been lifted. 
Is this incorrect?

Just out of curiosity since you opened the door, is there any document or series of documents, accepted by *at least* a majority of Orthodox bishops that declares the Catholic Church to be in formal heresy and anathematized?  If so, can you produce them in an English translation or link them, etc.?  If there is no such formal heresy and anathema, how can you make the statement you have made?

The texts of the councils, the writings of St. Mark, the encylicals of the partriarchs are all translated and available online. As for the so-called "lifting of anathemas," 1. Humbert's initial anathema was invalid as the pope was dead and everyone knew the pope was dead and 2. Cerluarius' anathema was against Humbert and his cronies. The "lifting" was an empty gesture whose meaning had nothing to do with the anathema itself. Indeed, in the east, no one much remembered 1054. At a reunion council in 1098, there is not even a mention of it.

So...the (Roman) Catholic Church is *not* in formal heresy and therefore anathematized according to documents signed off by *at least* a majority of Orthodox bishops?  Or is it?  Please clarify.  I understand "yes" and "no" far better than long, complicated, convoluted, highly technical, theological treatises which I, in all honesty, have little time to read--unfortunately.  Wink

And yet you asked for texts because my "no" was insufficient for you.

Most humble apologies.  In my denseness, I didn't see a "no, the (Roman) Catholic Church is *not* in formal heresy and therefore anathematized" in what you wrote.  Sad

What sort of evidence would you like that the Roman Church IS in formal heresy and therefore anathematized? There are anathemas against filioque, created grace, material purgatorial fire, papal infallibility, etc. All these things have been and/or still are professed by the Roman Church, to which more innovations and departures from truth could be added. Generally, anathemas can take two forms, either the belief is anathematized or the group is anathematized--but because they ascribe to a belief.

I assume that by "formal heresy" you mean something more than just a mistake. You would be right in this case because the heresies of the Roman Catholics have been institutionalized.

Ohhhhhhhhhh my.....Look, I'm a simple, relatively undereducated soul.  I just happen to like simple, too, where simple is at least obtainable.  Let me ask you this way----according to the Orthodox Church as a whole, as an institution, is the Catholic Church, as a whole, as an institution (a group) in heresy and therefore anathematized from the whole of the Orthodox Church?  I'm *not* looking for "evidence", just a simple yes or no.  If I'm asking the question incorrectly, please let me know how I should be asking it.

I'm well aware of all the stuff about the filioque, papal infallibility, etc., etc..  Been there, done that.  I was, after all, in the Orthodox Church for some time, but *not* because I had issues about any of those things.  But that's a whole other discussion...

I don't know, but the question, from an Orthodox POV, is not necessary, since the beliefs are anathematized. The beliefs of Calvinism are anathematized as well, but the Dutch Reformed Church as an entity is not. The Church has not felt a need, I don't think, to keep up the anathemas since once is quite sufficient. Usually, anathemas are against hereseiarchs, most of whom come from out of the Church--there has thus been a question as to their beliefs and standing with the Church. As for the Roman Catholics, liturgical and liguistic differences exacerbated a feeling of separation already felt by the 11th century. There was already mutual mistrust along cultural lines, even though there was communion. I would argue that it was canonical abuses like papal supremacy and the replacing of Greek bishops with Latin ones which did more than the filioque had to seal the deal on not only the sense that the Latins were schismatics, but also heretics. Historically, we can see a very swift change in the Roman papal agenda from the mid to late 11th century--already in a period of solidifying schism. It was shortly after this period that new heresies were introduced by the Latins so that schism and heresy, whilst originating on different courses, combined. Not sure if I have stated this well enough.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2011, 04:50:22 PM »

Show me where we are taught that we can determine where the grace of God does and does not go. If you cannot demonstrate that, then this is nothing more than speculation on your part and on the part of the fathers. St. Cyril's warning that we should check all he has to say against scripture comes to mind here.

The Holy Spirit is “everywhere present and fillest all things.”  However, sacramental grace is another matter entirely.  So, the Holy Spirit may operate outside of the Church to bring those who are outside of the Church into the Church.  Remission of sins, theosis, and our entire salvation, however, depends upon the working of grace through the sacraments.  The Lord gave to his Apostles the power to “bind and loose”, saying “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”  This binding and loosing was given to the successors of the Apostles and the exercise of this right is most clearly manifested in the decisions of the Ecumenical and Pan-Orthodox Councils wherein certain beliefs, and/or those who hold such beliefs, are declared “anathema”, or cut off from the Church.  An example of such an anathema is the anathema of the Ecumenical Council against anyone who would alter the wording of the Creed.  The Eighth Ecumenical Council affirmed the fact that the Pope and his followers fell into heresy by adopting the Filioque, and subsequent Pan-Orthodox Councils have confirmed that the Pope and his followers are in fact anathema and outside of the Church.  In addition to the examples provided, here are some of the words from the Pan-Orthodox Council of 1583 that was attended by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem:

=============
From the Tomos of Cyril Loukaris, Patriarch of Alexandria:

Therefore,since we are going to depart from here, we enjoin you,of your charity, to
stand firm in your piety and in your Orthodoxy. And as for such Latinizers
and corrupters of your consciences, let them not have so much as a hearing
from you, but reject them as heretics and enemies of your salvation, whenever
they speak to you against these things that we write here below. No, you
should think in their manner.

First, whoever does not confess with heart and mouth, and indeed, whoever
calls himself a Roman [Pωμαῖος, i.e., a Greek] and a child of the Eastern
Church, and is baptized in the Greek Christian manner, as we are, and then
does not confess that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone,
essentially and hypostatically, and that He proceeds from the Father and the
Son temporally: whoever does not confess thus, but says that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son, let him be outside our Church, let him
not have any communion with us, and let him be anathema
.

Secondly, whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of Communion the
laity, too, must partake of the precious and immaculate Body and Blood, but
instead says that they should commune only of the immaculate Body and not
of the Blood as well, let him be outside the Church and let him be anathema.

And in addition to this, whoever says that it is sufficient to partake only of the
Flesh, because therein is also the Blood, whereas Christ said and administered
each separately, and fails to observe these matters, let such persons be anathema.

Thirdly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Supper
had unleavened bread, like the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is, bread raised
by yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema, as one
holding Jewish views and as bringing the doctrines of Apollinarios and of the
Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

Fourthly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes to
judge, will not come for the sake of souls, but will come to sentence bodies, let him be anathema.

Fifthly, whoever says that the souls of Christians who have repented while
in this world but have failed to perform their penitential rule of prayer [ϰανό-
να], when they are parted from their bodies, go to the purgatorial fire, where
there is flame, torment, and punishment, which is a pagan Greek myth, let him be anathema, since they give Christians license to sin.

Sixthly, whoever says that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church, and
not Christ, let him be anathema.

Whoever opposes these precepts in order to overthrow and destroy them,
let him be anathema.

As for you, my Christians, I beseech you, for the Lord’s sake and for the
sake of what is profitable for your souls, to beware of these wolves, whoever
they may be, and to read this Tomos frequently in Church, so that you may be
familiar with the points on which such men are going to war against you.
Throughout their lives they have not learned anything other than to oppose us
Orthodox Christians, in order that destruction and ill-treatment might be
inflicted on our nation by Latins. Let us not listen to them, but let us stand
firm as far away as possible. Beseech God that you not enter into temptation
on account of the Faith. However, when there is great need, it is a sweet thing
for a man to shed his blood for the sake of piety. But in so great a matter, God
will not allow it, so that your enemies may prove wholly insignificant and, by
the Grace of Christ, ignorant and blind. Yet, guard yourselves and beware of
such men. May our Lord Jesus Christ help you, bless you, and grant you a
peaceful state, and at the same time may the prayer of your humble servant be
with all of you. Amen.

* Dositheos, Tόμος Ἀγάπης, pp. 552-554.




And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2011, 05:06:36 PM »

The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


As it has been noted:  Not all Orthodox believers agree with you.

Not all "Orthodox believers" agree with St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Basil the Great, St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, St. Paisius Velichkovsky, and others.  That is unfortunate, but not significant.   

That the Catholic Church falls under the wisdom of the fathers listed above has not been fully explored by universal Orthodoxy and decided without question or further issue...and to the extent it has been done locally, the results have been much less than consistent and no final answer has been rendered to date.

That is significant.

See St. Mark of Ephesus and his disciples, the encyclicals of the Eastern Patriarchs, etc. It's very clear the Roman Catholics are under anathema and not a part of the Church, from the Orthodox POV.

And here I thought it was Cardinal Humbertus who was anathematized and excommunicated, said anathema and excommunication having since been lifted. 
Is this incorrect?

Just out of curiosity since you opened the door, is there any document or series of documents, accepted by *at least* a majority of Orthodox bishops that declares the Catholic Church to be in formal heresy and anathematized?  If so, can you produce them in an English translation or link them, etc.?  If there is no such formal heresy and anathema, how can you make the statement you have made?

The texts of the councils, the writings of St. Mark, the encylicals of the partriarchs are all translated and available online. As for the so-called "lifting of anathemas," 1. Humbert's initial anathema was invalid as the pope was dead and everyone knew the pope was dead and 2. Cerluarius' anathema was against Humbert and his cronies. The "lifting" was an empty gesture whose meaning had nothing to do with the anathema itself. Indeed, in the east, no one much remembered 1054. At a reunion council in 1098, there is not even a mention of it.

So...the (Roman) Catholic Church is *not* in formal heresy and therefore anathematized according to documents signed off by *at least* a majority of Orthodox bishops?  Or is it?  Please clarify.  I understand "yes" and "no" far better than long, complicated, convoluted, highly technical, theological treatises which I, in all honesty, have little time to read--unfortunately.  Wink

And yet you asked for texts because my "no" was insufficient for you.

Most humble apologies.  In my denseness, I didn't see a "no, the (Roman) Catholic Church is *not* in formal heresy and therefore anathematized" in what you wrote.  Sad

What sort of evidence would you like that the Roman Church IS in formal heresy and therefore anathematized? There are anathemas against filioque, created grace, material purgatorial fire, papal infallibility, etc. All these things have been and/or still are professed by the Roman Church, to which more innovations and departures from truth could be added. Generally, anathemas can take two forms, either the belief is anathematized or the group is anathematized--but because they ascribe to a belief.

I assume that by "formal heresy" you mean something more than just a mistake. You would be right in this case because the heresies of the Roman Catholics have been institutionalized.

Ohhhhhhhhhh my.....Look, I'm a simple, relatively undereducated soul.  I just happen to like simple, too, where simple is at least obtainable.  Let me ask you this way----according to the Orthodox Church as a whole, as an institution, is the Catholic Church, as a whole, as an institution (a group) in heresy and therefore anathematized from the whole of the Orthodox Church?  I'm *not* looking for "evidence", just a simple yes or no.  If I'm asking the question incorrectly, please let me know how I should be asking it.

I'm well aware of all the stuff about the filioque, papal infallibility, etc., etc..  Been there, done that.  I was, after all, in the Orthodox Church for some time, but *not* because I had issues about any of those things.  But that's a whole other discussion...

I don't know, but the question, from an Orthodox POV, is not necessary, since the beliefs are anathematized. The beliefs of Calvinism are anathematized as well, but the Dutch Reformed Church as an entity is not. The Church has not felt a need, I don't think, to keep up the anathemas since once is quite sufficient. Usually, anathemas are against hereseiarchs, most of whom come from out of the Church--there has thus been a question as to their beliefs and standing with the Church. As for the Roman Catholics, liturgical and liguistic differences exacerbated a feeling of separation already felt by the 11th century. There was already mutual mistrust along cultural lines, even though there was communion. I would argue that it was canonical abuses like papal supremacy and the replacing of Greek bishops with Latin ones which did more than the filioque had to seal the deal on not only the sense that the Latins were schismatics, but also heretics. Historically, we can see a very swift change in the Roman papal agenda from the mid to late 11th century--already in a period of solidifying schism. It was shortly after this period that new heresies were introduced by the Latins so that schism and heresy, whilst originating on different courses, combined. Not sure if I have stated this well enough.

If the "beliefs are anathematized" does that mean those who believe them are, too?  I mean, how can there be a belief without someone who believes it?  Can the belief be separated from the believer?  If I, as a Catholic, believe that the Pope is the Visible Head of the Church on earth (please, no icons--we've done that elsewhere Grin!), with Christ at its Head ultimately, does that anathematize me and make me a heretic in the eyes of the Orthodox Church?

Why is it that some Orthodox claim that the whole of the Catholic Church is heretical and anathematized?  Are they in error?

Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2011, 05:11:50 PM »

Show me where we are taught that we can determine where the grace of God does and does not go. If you cannot demonstrate that, then this is nothing more than speculation on your part and on the part of the fathers. St. Cyril's warning that we should check all he has to say against scripture comes to mind here.

The Holy Spirit is “everywhere present and fillest all things.”  However, sacramental grace is another matter entirely.  So, the Holy Spirit may operate outside of the Church to bring those who are outside of the Church into the Church.  Remission of sins, theosis, and our entire salvation, however, depends upon the working of grace through the sacraments.  The Lord gave to his Apostles the power to “bind and loose”, saying “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”  This binding and loosing was given to the successors of the Apostles and the exercise of this right is most clearly manifested in the decisions of the Ecumenical and Pan-Orthodox Councils wherein certain beliefs, and/or those who hold such beliefs, are declared “anathema”, or cut off from the Church.  An example of such an anathema is the anathema of the Ecumenical Council against anyone who would alter the wording of the Creed.  The Eighth Ecumenical Council affirmed the fact that the Pope and his followers fell into heresy by adopting the Filioque, and subsequent Pan-Orthodox Councils have confirmed that the Pope and his followers are in fact anathema and outside of the Church.  In addition to the examples provided, here are some of the words from the Pan-Orthodox Council of 1583 that was attended by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem:

=============
From the Tomos of Cyril Loukaris, Patriarch of Alexandria:

Therefore,since we are going to depart from here, we enjoin you,of your charity, to
stand firm in your piety and in your Orthodoxy. And as for such Latinizers
and corrupters of your consciences, let them not have so much as a hearing
from you, but reject them as heretics and enemies of your salvation, whenever
they speak to you against these things that we write here below. No, you
should think in their manner.

First, whoever does not confess with heart and mouth, and indeed, whoever
calls himself a Roman [Pωμαῖος, i.e., a Greek] and a child of the Eastern
Church, and is baptized in the Greek Christian manner, as we are, and then
does not confess that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone,
essentially and hypostatically, and that He proceeds from the Father and the
Son temporally: whoever does not confess thus, but says that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son, let him be outside our Church, let him
not have any communion with us, and let him be anathema
.

Secondly, whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of Communion the
laity, too, must partake of the precious and immaculate Body and Blood, but
instead says that they should commune only of the immaculate Body and not
of the Blood as well, let him be outside the Church and let him be anathema.

And in addition to this, whoever says that it is sufficient to partake only of the
Flesh, because therein is also the Blood, whereas Christ said and administered
each separately, and fails to observe these matters, let such persons be anathema.

Thirdly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Supper
had unleavened bread, like the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is, bread raised
by yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema, as one
holding Jewish views and as bringing the doctrines of Apollinarios and of the
Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

Fourthly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes to
judge, will not come for the sake of souls, but will come to sentence bodies, let him be anathema.

Fifthly, whoever says that the souls of Christians who have repented while
in this world but have failed to perform their penitential rule of prayer [ϰανό-
να], when they are parted from their bodies, go to the purgatorial fire, where
there is flame, torment, and punishment, which is a pagan Greek myth, let him be anathema, since they give Christians license to sin.

Sixthly, whoever says that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church, and
not Christ, let him be anathema.

Whoever opposes these precepts in order to overthrow and destroy them,
let him be anathema.

As for you, my Christians, I beseech you, for the Lord’s sake and for the
sake of what is profitable for your souls, to beware of these wolves, whoever
they may be, and to read this Tomos frequently in Church, so that you may be
familiar with the points on which such men are going to war against you.
Throughout their lives they have not learned anything other than to oppose us
Orthodox Christians, in order that destruction and ill-treatment might be
inflicted on our nation by Latins. Let us not listen to them, but let us stand
firm as far away as possible. Beseech God that you not enter into temptation
on account of the Faith. However, when there is great need, it is a sweet thing
for a man to shed his blood for the sake of piety. But in so great a matter, God
will not allow it, so that your enemies may prove wholly insignificant and, by
the Grace of Christ, ignorant and blind. Yet, guard yourselves and beware of
such men. May our Lord Jesus Christ help you, bless you, and grant you a
peaceful state, and at the same time may the prayer of your humble servant be
with all of you. Amen.

* Dositheos, Tόμος Ἀγάπης, pp. 552-554.




And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.

Oh!!...You study at the Romanity School of Alternate History!!... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:12:25 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2011, 05:19:28 PM »

Show me where we are taught that we can determine where the grace of God does and does not go. If you cannot demonstrate that, then this is nothing more than speculation on your part and on the part of the fathers. St. Cyril's warning that we should check all he has to say against scripture comes to mind here.

The Holy Spirit is “everywhere present and fillest all things.”  However, sacramental grace is another matter entirely.  So, the Holy Spirit may operate outside of the Church to bring those who are outside of the Church into the Church.  Remission of sins, theosis, and our entire salvation, however, depends upon the working of grace through the sacraments.  The Lord gave to his Apostles the power to “bind and loose”, saying “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”  This binding and loosing was given to the successors of the Apostles and the exercise of this right is most clearly manifested in the decisions of the Ecumenical and Pan-Orthodox Councils wherein certain beliefs, and/or those who hold such beliefs, are declared “anathema”, or cut off from the Church.  An example of such an anathema is the anathema of the Ecumenical Council against anyone who would alter the wording of the Creed.  The Eighth Ecumenical Council affirmed the fact that the Pope and his followers fell into heresy by adopting the Filioque, and subsequent Pan-Orthodox Councils have confirmed that the Pope and his followers are in fact anathema and outside of the Church.  In addition to the examples provided, here are some of the words from the Pan-Orthodox Council of 1583 that was attended by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem:

=============
From the Tomos of Cyril Loukaris, Patriarch of Alexandria:

Therefore,since we are going to depart from here, we enjoin you,of your charity, to
stand firm in your piety and in your Orthodoxy. And as for such Latinizers
and corrupters of your consciences, let them not have so much as a hearing
from you, but reject them as heretics and enemies of your salvation, whenever
they speak to you against these things that we write here below. No, you
should think in their manner.

First, whoever does not confess with heart and mouth, and indeed, whoever
calls himself a Roman [Pωμαῖος, i.e., a Greek] and a child of the Eastern
Church, and is baptized in the Greek Christian manner, as we are, and then
does not confess that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone,
essentially and hypostatically, and that He proceeds from the Father and the
Son temporally: whoever does not confess thus, but says that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son, let him be outside our Church, let him
not have any communion with us, and let him be anathema
.

Secondly, whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of Communion the
laity, too, must partake of the precious and immaculate Body and Blood, but
instead says that they should commune only of the immaculate Body and not
of the Blood as well, let him be outside the Church and let him be anathema.

And in addition to this, whoever says that it is sufficient to partake only of the
Flesh, because therein is also the Blood, whereas Christ said and administered
each separately, and fails to observe these matters, let such persons be anathema.

Thirdly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Supper
had unleavened bread, like the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is, bread raised
by yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema, as one
holding Jewish views and as bringing the doctrines of Apollinarios and of the
Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

Fourthly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes to
judge, will not come for the sake of souls, but will come to sentence bodies, let him be anathema.

Fifthly, whoever says that the souls of Christians who have repented while
in this world but have failed to perform their penitential rule of prayer [ϰανό-
να], when they are parted from their bodies, go to the purgatorial fire, where
there is flame, torment, and punishment, which is a pagan Greek myth, let him be anathema, since they give Christians license to sin.

Sixthly, whoever says that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church, and
not Christ, let him be anathema.

Whoever opposes these precepts in order to overthrow and destroy them,
let him be anathema.

As for you, my Christians, I beseech you, for the Lord’s sake and for the
sake of what is profitable for your souls, to beware of these wolves, whoever
they may be, and to read this Tomos frequently in Church, so that you may be
familiar with the points on which such men are going to war against you.
Throughout their lives they have not learned anything other than to oppose us
Orthodox Christians, in order that destruction and ill-treatment might be
inflicted on our nation by Latins. Let us not listen to them, but let us stand
firm as far away as possible. Beseech God that you not enter into temptation
on account of the Faith. However, when there is great need, it is a sweet thing
for a man to shed his blood for the sake of piety. But in so great a matter, God
will not allow it, so that your enemies may prove wholly insignificant and, by
the Grace of Christ, ignorant and blind. Yet, guard yourselves and beware of
such men. May our Lord Jesus Christ help you, bless you, and grant you a
peaceful state, and at the same time may the prayer of your humble servant be
with all of you. Amen.

* Dositheos, Tόμος Ἀγάπης, pp. 552-554.




And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.

Is this the same St. Cyril who is considered to be, by the *Roman Catholic Church*, a Doctor of the Church?  That one?

By the way, I know it's not exactly analogous, but I seem to recall that Sts. Boris and Gleb were martyred by......their brother and his agents.  Weren't they  Orthodox?  Hmmm......
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:23:50 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2011, 05:20:45 PM »

The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


As it has been noted:  Not all Orthodox believers agree with you.

Not all "Orthodox believers" agree with St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Basil the Great, St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain, St. Paisius Velichkovsky, and others.  That is unfortunate, but not significant.   

That the Catholic Church falls under the wisdom of the fathers listed above has not been fully explored by universal Orthodoxy and decided without question or further issue...and to the extent it has been done locally, the results have been much less than consistent and no final answer has been rendered to date.

That is significant.

See St. Mark of Ephesus and his disciples, the encyclicals of the Eastern Patriarchs, etc. It's very clear the Roman Catholics are under anathema and not a part of the Church, from the Orthodox POV.

And here I thought it was Cardinal Humbertus who was anathematized and excommunicated, said anathema and excommunication having since been lifted. 
Is this incorrect?

Just out of curiosity since you opened the door, is there any document or series of documents, accepted by *at least* a majority of Orthodox bishops that declares the Catholic Church to be in formal heresy and anathematized?  If so, can you produce them in an English translation or link them, etc.?  If there is no such formal heresy and anathema, how can you make the statement you have made?

The texts of the councils, the writings of St. Mark, the encylicals of the partriarchs are all translated and available online. As for the so-called "lifting of anathemas," 1. Humbert's initial anathema was invalid as the pope was dead and everyone knew the pope was dead and 2. Cerluarius' anathema was against Humbert and his cronies. The "lifting" was an empty gesture whose meaning had nothing to do with the anathema itself. Indeed, in the east, no one much remembered 1054. At a reunion council in 1098, there is not even a mention of it.

So...the (Roman) Catholic Church is *not* in formal heresy and therefore anathematized according to documents signed off by *at least* a majority of Orthodox bishops?  Or is it?  Please clarify.  I understand "yes" and "no" far better than long, complicated, convoluted, highly technical, theological treatises which I, in all honesty, have little time to read--unfortunately.  Wink

And yet you asked for texts because my "no" was insufficient for you.

Most humble apologies.  In my denseness, I didn't see a "no, the (Roman) Catholic Church is *not* in formal heresy and therefore anathematized" in what you wrote.  Sad

What sort of evidence would you like that the Roman Church IS in formal heresy and therefore anathematized? There are anathemas against filioque, created grace, material purgatorial fire, papal infallibility, etc. All these things have been and/or still are professed by the Roman Church, to which more innovations and departures from truth could be added. Generally, anathemas can take two forms, either the belief is anathematized or the group is anathematized--but because they ascribe to a belief.

I assume that by "formal heresy" you mean something more than just a mistake. You would be right in this case because the heresies of the Roman Catholics have been institutionalized.

Ohhhhhhhhhh my.....Look, I'm a simple, relatively undereducated soul.  I just happen to like simple, too, where simple is at least obtainable.  Let me ask you this way----according to the Orthodox Church as a whole, as an institution, is the Catholic Church, as a whole, as an institution (a group) in heresy and therefore anathematized from the whole of the Orthodox Church?  I'm *not* looking for "evidence", just a simple yes or no.  If I'm asking the question incorrectly, please let me know how I should be asking it.

I'm well aware of all the stuff about the filioque, papal infallibility, etc., etc..  Been there, done that.  I was, after all, in the Orthodox Church for some time, but *not* because I had issues about any of those things.  But that's a whole other discussion...

I don't know, but the question, from an Orthodox POV, is not necessary, since the beliefs are anathematized. The beliefs of Calvinism are anathematized as well, but the Dutch Reformed Church as an entity is not. The Church has not felt a need, I don't think, to keep up the anathemas since once is quite sufficient. Usually, anathemas are against hereseiarchs, most of whom come from out of the Church--there has thus been a question as to their beliefs and standing with the Church. As for the Roman Catholics, liturgical and liguistic differences exacerbated a feeling of separation already felt by the 11th century. There was already mutual mistrust along cultural lines, even though there was communion. I would argue that it was canonical abuses like papal supremacy and the replacing of Greek bishops with Latin ones which did more than the filioque had to seal the deal on not only the sense that the Latins were schismatics, but also heretics. Historically, we can see a very swift change in the Roman papal agenda from the mid to late 11th century--already in a period of solidifying schism. It was shortly after this period that new heresies were introduced by the Latins so that schism and heresy, whilst originating on different courses, combined. Not sure if I have stated this well enough.

If the "beliefs are anathematized" does that mean those who believe them are, too?  I mean, how can there be a belief without someone who believes it?  Can the belief be separated from the believer?  If I, as a Catholic, believe that the Pope is the Visible Head of the Church on earth (please, no icons--we've done that elsewhere Grin!), with Christ at its Head ultimately, does that anathematize me and make me a heretic in the eyes of the Orthodox Church?

Why is it that some Orthodox claim that the whole of the Catholic Church is heretical and anathematized?  Are they in error?



Yes, the holders are beliefs are anathematized. That is what I meant. Those who believe contrary to the Church are under anathema.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2011, 05:21:17 PM »

Show me where we are taught that we can determine where the grace of God does and does not go. If you cannot demonstrate that, then this is nothing more than speculation on your part and on the part of the fathers. St. Cyril's warning that we should check all he has to say against scripture comes to mind here.

The Holy Spirit is “everywhere present and fillest all things.”  However, sacramental grace is another matter entirely.  So, the Holy Spirit may operate outside of the Church to bring those who are outside of the Church into the Church.  Remission of sins, theosis, and our entire salvation, however, depends upon the working of grace through the sacraments.  The Lord gave to his Apostles the power to “bind and loose”, saying “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”  This binding and loosing was given to the successors of the Apostles and the exercise of this right is most clearly manifested in the decisions of the Ecumenical and Pan-Orthodox Councils wherein certain beliefs, and/or those who hold such beliefs, are declared “anathema”, or cut off from the Church.  An example of such an anathema is the anathema of the Ecumenical Council against anyone who would alter the wording of the Creed.  The Eighth Ecumenical Council affirmed the fact that the Pope and his followers fell into heresy by adopting the Filioque, and subsequent Pan-Orthodox Councils have confirmed that the Pope and his followers are in fact anathema and outside of the Church.  In addition to the examples provided, here are some of the words from the Pan-Orthodox Council of 1583 that was attended by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem:

=============
From the Tomos of Cyril Loukaris, Patriarch of Alexandria:

Therefore,since we are going to depart from here, we enjoin you,of your charity, to
stand firm in your piety and in your Orthodoxy. And as for such Latinizers
and corrupters of your consciences, let them not have so much as a hearing
from you, but reject them as heretics and enemies of your salvation, whenever
they speak to you against these things that we write here below. No, you
should think in their manner.

First, whoever does not confess with heart and mouth, and indeed, whoever
calls himself a Roman [Pωμαῖος, i.e., a Greek] and a child of the Eastern
Church, and is baptized in the Greek Christian manner, as we are, and then
does not confess that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone,
essentially and hypostatically, and that He proceeds from the Father and the
Son temporally: whoever does not confess thus, but says that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son, let him be outside our Church, let him
not have any communion with us, and let him be anathema
.

Secondly, whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of Communion the
laity, too, must partake of the precious and immaculate Body and Blood, but
instead says that they should commune only of the immaculate Body and not
of the Blood as well, let him be outside the Church and let him be anathema.

And in addition to this, whoever says that it is sufficient to partake only of the
Flesh, because therein is also the Blood, whereas Christ said and administered
each separately, and fails to observe these matters, let such persons be anathema.

Thirdly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Supper
had unleavened bread, like the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is, bread raised
by yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema, as one
holding Jewish views and as bringing the doctrines of Apollinarios and of the
Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

Fourthly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes to
judge, will not come for the sake of souls, but will come to sentence bodies, let him be anathema.

Fifthly, whoever says that the souls of Christians who have repented while
in this world but have failed to perform their penitential rule of prayer [ϰανό-
να], when they are parted from their bodies, go to the purgatorial fire, where
there is flame, torment, and punishment, which is a pagan Greek myth, let him be anathema, since they give Christians license to sin.

Sixthly, whoever says that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church, and
not Christ, let him be anathema.

Whoever opposes these precepts in order to overthrow and destroy them,
let him be anathema.

As for you, my Christians, I beseech you, for the Lord’s sake and for the
sake of what is profitable for your souls, to beware of these wolves, whoever
they may be, and to read this Tomos frequently in Church, so that you may be
familiar with the points on which such men are going to war against you.
Throughout their lives they have not learned anything other than to oppose us
Orthodox Christians, in order that destruction and ill-treatment might be
inflicted on our nation by Latins. Let us not listen to them, but let us stand
firm as far away as possible. Beseech God that you not enter into temptation
on account of the Faith. However, when there is great need, it is a sweet thing
for a man to shed his blood for the sake of piety. But in so great a matter, God
will not allow it, so that your enemies may prove wholly insignificant and, by
the Grace of Christ, ignorant and blind. Yet, guard yourselves and beware of
such men. May our Lord Jesus Christ help you, bless you, and grant you a
peaceful state, and at the same time may the prayer of your humble servant be
with all of you. Amen.

* Dositheos, Tόμος Ἀγάπης, pp. 552-554.




And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.

Oh!!...You study at the Romanity School of Alternate History!!... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Whatever.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2011, 05:22:07 PM »

Show me where we are taught that we can determine where the grace of God does and does not go. If you cannot demonstrate that, then this is nothing more than speculation on your part and on the part of the fathers. St. Cyril's warning that we should check all he has to say against scripture comes to mind here.

The Holy Spirit is “everywhere present and fillest all things.”  However, sacramental grace is another matter entirely.  So, the Holy Spirit may operate outside of the Church to bring those who are outside of the Church into the Church.  Remission of sins, theosis, and our entire salvation, however, depends upon the working of grace through the sacraments.  The Lord gave to his Apostles the power to “bind and loose”, saying “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”  This binding and loosing was given to the successors of the Apostles and the exercise of this right is most clearly manifested in the decisions of the Ecumenical and Pan-Orthodox Councils wherein certain beliefs, and/or those who hold such beliefs, are declared “anathema”, or cut off from the Church.  An example of such an anathema is the anathema of the Ecumenical Council against anyone who would alter the wording of the Creed.  The Eighth Ecumenical Council affirmed the fact that the Pope and his followers fell into heresy by adopting the Filioque, and subsequent Pan-Orthodox Councils have confirmed that the Pope and his followers are in fact anathema and outside of the Church.  In addition to the examples provided, here are some of the words from the Pan-Orthodox Council of 1583 that was attended by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem:

=============
From the Tomos of Cyril Loukaris, Patriarch of Alexandria:

Therefore,since we are going to depart from here, we enjoin you,of your charity, to
stand firm in your piety and in your Orthodoxy. And as for such Latinizers
and corrupters of your consciences, let them not have so much as a hearing
from you, but reject them as heretics and enemies of your salvation, whenever
they speak to you against these things that we write here below. No, you
should think in their manner.

First, whoever does not confess with heart and mouth, and indeed, whoever
calls himself a Roman [Pωμαῖος, i.e., a Greek] and a child of the Eastern
Church, and is baptized in the Greek Christian manner, as we are, and then
does not confess that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone,
essentially and hypostatically, and that He proceeds from the Father and the
Son temporally: whoever does not confess thus, but says that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son, let him be outside our Church, let him
not have any communion with us, and let him be anathema
.

Secondly, whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of Communion the
laity, too, must partake of the precious and immaculate Body and Blood, but
instead says that they should commune only of the immaculate Body and not
of the Blood as well, let him be outside the Church and let him be anathema.

And in addition to this, whoever says that it is sufficient to partake only of the
Flesh, because therein is also the Blood, whereas Christ said and administered
each separately, and fails to observe these matters, let such persons be anathema.

Thirdly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Supper
had unleavened bread, like the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is, bread raised
by yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema, as one
holding Jewish views and as bringing the doctrines of Apollinarios and of the
Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

Fourthly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes to
judge, will not come for the sake of souls, but will come to sentence bodies, let him be anathema.

Fifthly, whoever says that the souls of Christians who have repented while
in this world but have failed to perform their penitential rule of prayer [ϰανό-
να], when they are parted from their bodies, go to the purgatorial fire, where
there is flame, torment, and punishment, which is a pagan Greek myth, let him be anathema, since they give Christians license to sin.

Sixthly, whoever says that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church, and
not Christ, let him be anathema.

Whoever opposes these precepts in order to overthrow and destroy them,
let him be anathema.

As for you, my Christians, I beseech you, for the Lord’s sake and for the
sake of what is profitable for your souls, to beware of these wolves, whoever
they may be, and to read this Tomos frequently in Church, so that you may be
familiar with the points on which such men are going to war against you.
Throughout their lives they have not learned anything other than to oppose us
Orthodox Christians, in order that destruction and ill-treatment might be
inflicted on our nation by Latins. Let us not listen to them, but let us stand
firm as far away as possible. Beseech God that you not enter into temptation
on account of the Faith. However, when there is great need, it is a sweet thing
for a man to shed his blood for the sake of piety. But in so great a matter, God
will not allow it, so that your enemies may prove wholly insignificant and, by
the Grace of Christ, ignorant and blind. Yet, guard yourselves and beware of
such men. May our Lord Jesus Christ help you, bless you, and grant you a
peaceful state, and at the same time may the prayer of your humble servant be
with all of you. Amen.

* Dositheos, Tόμος Ἀγάπης, pp. 552-554.




And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.

Is this the same St. Cyril who is considered to be, by the *Roman Catholic Church*, a Doctor of the Church?  That one?

No. St. Cyril Lukaris, 17th or 18th century patriarch of Alexandria and Constantinople.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:22:26 PM by Shanghaiski » Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2011, 05:25:53 PM »

Show me where we are taught that we can determine where the grace of God does and does not go. If you cannot demonstrate that, then this is nothing more than speculation on your part and on the part of the fathers. St. Cyril's warning that we should check all he has to say against scripture comes to mind here.

The Holy Spirit is “everywhere present and fillest all things.”  However, sacramental grace is another matter entirely.  So, the Holy Spirit may operate outside of the Church to bring those who are outside of the Church into the Church.  Remission of sins, theosis, and our entire salvation, however, depends upon the working of grace through the sacraments.  The Lord gave to his Apostles the power to “bind and loose”, saying “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”  This binding and loosing was given to the successors of the Apostles and the exercise of this right is most clearly manifested in the decisions of the Ecumenical and Pan-Orthodox Councils wherein certain beliefs, and/or those who hold such beliefs, are declared “anathema”, or cut off from the Church.  An example of such an anathema is the anathema of the Ecumenical Council against anyone who would alter the wording of the Creed.  The Eighth Ecumenical Council affirmed the fact that the Pope and his followers fell into heresy by adopting the Filioque, and subsequent Pan-Orthodox Councils have confirmed that the Pope and his followers are in fact anathema and outside of the Church.  In addition to the examples provided, here are some of the words from the Pan-Orthodox Council of 1583 that was attended by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem:

=============
From the Tomos of Cyril Loukaris, Patriarch of Alexandria:

Therefore,since we are going to depart from here, we enjoin you,of your charity, to
stand firm in your piety and in your Orthodoxy. And as for such Latinizers
and corrupters of your consciences, let them not have so much as a hearing
from you, but reject them as heretics and enemies of your salvation, whenever
they speak to you against these things that we write here below. No, you
should think in their manner.

First, whoever does not confess with heart and mouth, and indeed, whoever
calls himself a Roman [Pωμαῖος, i.e., a Greek] and a child of the Eastern
Church, and is baptized in the Greek Christian manner, as we are, and then
does not confess that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone,
essentially and hypostatically, and that He proceeds from the Father and the
Son temporally: whoever does not confess thus, but says that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son, let him be outside our Church, let him
not have any communion with us, and let him be anathema
.

Secondly, whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of Communion the
laity, too, must partake of the precious and immaculate Body and Blood, but
instead says that they should commune only of the immaculate Body and not
of the Blood as well, let him be outside the Church and let him be anathema.

And in addition to this, whoever says that it is sufficient to partake only of the
Flesh, because therein is also the Blood, whereas Christ said and administered
each separately, and fails to observe these matters, let such persons be anathema.

Thirdly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Supper
had unleavened bread, like the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is, bread raised
by yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema, as one
holding Jewish views and as bringing the doctrines of Apollinarios and of the
Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

Fourthly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes to
judge, will not come for the sake of souls, but will come to sentence bodies, let him be anathema.

Fifthly, whoever says that the souls of Christians who have repented while
in this world but have failed to perform their penitential rule of prayer [ϰανό-
να], when they are parted from their bodies, go to the purgatorial fire, where
there is flame, torment, and punishment, which is a pagan Greek myth, let him be anathema, since they give Christians license to sin.

Sixthly, whoever says that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church, and
not Christ, let him be anathema.

Whoever opposes these precepts in order to overthrow and destroy them,
let him be anathema.

As for you, my Christians, I beseech you, for the Lord’s sake and for the
sake of what is profitable for your souls, to beware of these wolves, whoever
they may be, and to read this Tomos frequently in Church, so that you may be
familiar with the points on which such men are going to war against you.
Throughout their lives they have not learned anything other than to oppose us
Orthodox Christians, in order that destruction and ill-treatment might be
inflicted on our nation by Latins. Let us not listen to them, but let us stand
firm as far away as possible. Beseech God that you not enter into temptation
on account of the Faith. However, when there is great need, it is a sweet thing
for a man to shed his blood for the sake of piety. But in so great a matter, God
will not allow it, so that your enemies may prove wholly insignificant and, by
the Grace of Christ, ignorant and blind. Yet, guard yourselves and beware of
such men. May our Lord Jesus Christ help you, bless you, and grant you a
peaceful state, and at the same time may the prayer of your humble servant be
with all of you. Amen.

* Dositheos, Tόμος Ἀγάπης, pp. 552-554.




And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.

Is this the same St. Cyril who is considered to be, by the *Roman Catholic Church*, a Doctor of the Church?  That one?

No. St. Cyril Lukaris, 17th or 18th century patriarch of Alexandria and Constantinople.

My mistake.

Have his anathemas been accepted by the whole of the Orthodox Church?


JM, the Anathematized Heretic
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2011, 05:28:15 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,965


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2011, 05:31:29 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944

Are you as required, as a Russian Orthodox Priest, to agree with your church on this matter?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2011, 05:35:47 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944


So, does this mean that I (along with all my other fellow Catholics) am *not* anathematized, and a heretic?

JM, the Confused
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,474



« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2011, 05:40:50 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:41:01 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,965


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2011, 05:42:14 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944


So, does this mean that I (along with all my other fellow Catholics) am *not* anathematized, and a heretic?

JM, the Confused
The Russian Orthodox still think that we are anathamatized heretics. They just think we have valid sacraments.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2011, 05:45:12 PM »

Show me where we are taught that we can determine where the grace of God does and does not go. If you cannot demonstrate that, then this is nothing more than speculation on your part and on the part of the fathers. St. Cyril's warning that we should check all he has to say against scripture comes to mind here.

The Holy Spirit is “everywhere present and fillest all things.”  However, sacramental grace is another matter entirely.  So, the Holy Spirit may operate outside of the Church to bring those who are outside of the Church into the Church.  Remission of sins, theosis, and our entire salvation, however, depends upon the working of grace through the sacraments.  The Lord gave to his Apostles the power to “bind and loose”, saying “whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”  This binding and loosing was given to the successors of the Apostles and the exercise of this right is most clearly manifested in the decisions of the Ecumenical and Pan-Orthodox Councils wherein certain beliefs, and/or those who hold such beliefs, are declared “anathema”, or cut off from the Church.  An example of such an anathema is the anathema of the Ecumenical Council against anyone who would alter the wording of the Creed.  The Eighth Ecumenical Council affirmed the fact that the Pope and his followers fell into heresy by adopting the Filioque, and subsequent Pan-Orthodox Councils have confirmed that the Pope and his followers are in fact anathema and outside of the Church.  In addition to the examples provided, here are some of the words from the Pan-Orthodox Council of 1583 that was attended by the Patriarch of Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem:

=============
From the Tomos of Cyril Loukaris, Patriarch of Alexandria:

Therefore,since we are going to depart from here, we enjoin you,of your charity, to
stand firm in your piety and in your Orthodoxy. And as for such Latinizers
and corrupters of your consciences, let them not have so much as a hearing
from you, but reject them as heretics and enemies of your salvation, whenever
they speak to you against these things that we write here below. No, you
should think in their manner.

First, whoever does not confess with heart and mouth, and indeed, whoever
calls himself a Roman [Pωμαῖος, i.e., a Greek] and a child of the Eastern
Church, and is baptized in the Greek Christian manner, as we are, and then
does not confess that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone,
essentially and hypostatically, and that He proceeds from the Father and the
Son temporally: whoever does not confess thus, but says that the Spirit
proceeds from the Father and the Son, let him be outside our Church, let him
not have any communion with us, and let him be anathema
.

Secondly, whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of Communion the
laity, too, must partake of the precious and immaculate Body and Blood, but
instead says that they should commune only of the immaculate Body and not
of the Blood as well, let him be outside the Church and let him be anathema.

And in addition to this, whoever says that it is sufficient to partake only of the
Flesh, because therein is also the Blood, whereas Christ said and administered
each separately, and fails to observe these matters, let such persons be anathema.

Thirdly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Supper
had unleavened bread, like the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is, bread raised
by yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema, as one
holding Jewish views and as bringing the doctrines of Apollinarios and of the
Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

Fourthly, whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ, when He comes to
judge, will not come for the sake of souls, but will come to sentence bodies, let him be anathema.

Fifthly, whoever says that the souls of Christians who have repented while
in this world but have failed to perform their penitential rule of prayer [ϰανό-
να], when they are parted from their bodies, go to the purgatorial fire, where
there is flame, torment, and punishment, which is a pagan Greek myth, let him be anathema, since they give Christians license to sin.

Sixthly, whoever says that the Pope of Rome is the head of the Church, and
not Christ, let him be anathema.

Whoever opposes these precepts in order to overthrow and destroy them,
let him be anathema.

As for you, my Christians, I beseech you, for the Lord’s sake and for the
sake of what is profitable for your souls, to beware of these wolves, whoever
they may be, and to read this Tomos frequently in Church, so that you may be
familiar with the points on which such men are going to war against you.
Throughout their lives they have not learned anything other than to oppose us
Orthodox Christians, in order that destruction and ill-treatment might be
inflicted on our nation by Latins. Let us not listen to them, but let us stand
firm as far away as possible. Beseech God that you not enter into temptation
on account of the Faith. However, when there is great need, it is a sweet thing
for a man to shed his blood for the sake of piety. But in so great a matter, God
will not allow it, so that your enemies may prove wholly insignificant and, by
the Grace of Christ, ignorant and blind. Yet, guard yourselves and beware of
such men. May our Lord Jesus Christ help you, bless you, and grant you a
peaceful state, and at the same time may the prayer of your humble servant be
with all of you. Amen.

* Dositheos, Tόμος Ἀγάπης, pp. 552-554.




And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.

Is this the same St. Cyril who is considered to be, by the *Roman Catholic Church*, a Doctor of the Church?  That one?

No. St. Cyril Lukaris, 17th or 18th century patriarch of Alexandria and Constantinople.

My mistake.

Have his anathemas been accepted by the whole of the Orthodox Church?


JM, the Anathematized Heretic

Yes, I believe they have, since the Dosiethean council has been widely accepted. Others could state it better than I, but just because one might believe in that which was anathematized does not necessarily mean that one is an anathematized heretic. Those who simply hold to what they have been taught and are outside the Church are heterodox. Those who actively preach heresy are heretics. This is an important distinction in some cases.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2011, 05:45:45 PM »


Schismatics are deprived of the hope of salvation not only because their baptism is invalid,

O magna haeresis!

Ask your bishop if he teaches this heresy – the damnation of Pope Benedict and all Roman Catholics.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2011, 05:45:57 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

Yes, God forbid that we should rejoice that He has enlightened us with the light of His truth. All rather unnecessary of Him, really.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2011, 05:46:58 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944


So, does this mean that I (along with all my other fellow Catholics) am *not* anathematized, and a heretic?

JM, the Confused
The Russian Orthodox still think that we are anathamatized heretics. They just think we have valid sacraments.

Okey doke!  At least we got *something* right.  Oh well...with God all things are possible, and one day we will reunite and *really* be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

JM, the sinner
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2011, 05:49:38 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944


So, does this mean that I (along with all my other fellow Catholics) am *not* anathematized, and a heretic?

JM, the Confused

In the end, it really doesn't matter. We have not adopted the weird ecclesiology of the post Vatican II Roman Catholic Church, which really isn't new, but is only a happy veneer to engender acceptance.

As a Roman Catholic, you are not a member of the Church, from the Orthodox POV. As a non-member of the Church, you would not be received to communion without some kind of process, no matter what that process is. This isn't to dump on you or Roman Catholics at all. I'm just stating the fact of the matter. Unfortunately in this thread there are lots of questions being asked at once. It would be better to have such sensitive conversations one-on-one.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2011, 05:51:44 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944


They say the Roman Catholics and Miaphysites have the form and the grace, but that the Kievan Patriarchate has no grace. It is a confused teaching trying to synthesize centuries of confusion.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,474



« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2011, 05:53:52 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

Yes, God forbid that we should rejoice that He has enlightened us with the light of His truth. All rather unnecessary of Him, really.
Very well, you and jah777 enjoy your diabolic surety that the Catholics with their pope will burn in hell for eternity. Those of us with sanity and love for our fellow man will place our hope in God's mercy.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:54:42 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2011, 06:00:31 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

Yes, God forbid that we should rejoice that He has enlightened us with the light of His truth. All rather unnecessary of Him, really.
Very well, you and jah777 enjoy your diabolic surety that the Catholics with their pope will burn in hell for eternity. Those of us with sanity and love for our fellow man will place our hope in God's mercy.

Now you are really going over the edge of sanity. No one said the Roman Catholics will burn in hell for eternity. Please, read what is actually written.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2011, 06:00:47 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944

Are you as required, as a Russian Orthodox Priest, to agree with your church on this matter?

I am in a cleft stick since my formation was in Serbia in the monastery of Zica where our spiritual father took a contrary view.  

My monastic and theological formation was in Yugoslavia (as it was then.)  My spiritual father and the person who tonsured me into the monastic life was Fr Archimandrite Dositej of Zica (eternal memory).  Fr Dositej had been the personal disciple and cell attendant of Saint Nikolai Velimirovic and he was tonsured a monk and ordained a priest by him. His teaching was that there are no sacraments outside Orthodoxy and that includes Baptism.)  

See message 18 at http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28315.msg446330.html#msg446330

On the other hand, there are Serbian bishops who accept the authenticity of Roman Catholic Sacraments.

Now I am in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad which accepts the same teaching as Fr Dositej and the Serbs.

On the other hand,  since 2007 and the union of ROCA with Moscow, I have been a member of the Russian Patriarchate also.

This is an example of the fluidity and even vagueness which characterises Orthodoxy in this area.

I believe it is not right to present one or other view and not mention that  there are other views in the Orthodox world.
 
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2011, 06:02:09 PM »


And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.

Oh!!...You study at the Romanity School of Alternate History!!... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Whatever.

I would think that if you really care to be taken seriously....
Logged

William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Netodox
Jurisdiction: OC.net
Posts: 4,171

Work hard, pray hard.


« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2011, 06:02:30 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.
Logged

I wish you'd all just shut up. Then at least you would appear to be wise. - Job 13:5 ISV
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2011, 06:06:02 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944


So, does this mean that I (along with all my other fellow Catholics) am *not* anathematized, and a heretic?

JM, the Confused

It seems to be an area where we are going to have to live with these paradoxes for some time to come. laugh
Logged
jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,605


« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2011, 06:11:01 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944



I will be away from the computer and unable to respond further for a while, but here is a link to a past response of mine to Fr. Alexander's messages:


 http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29606.msg539388.html#msg539388
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,474



« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2011, 06:11:51 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.

I see no ecclesiology here. Just a bunch of armchair theologians venturing beyond their competency.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2011, 06:14:55 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944

Are you as required, as a Russian Orthodox Priest, to agree with your church on this matter?

I am in a cleft stick since my formation was in Serbia in the monastery of Zica where our spiritual father took a contrary view.  

My monastic and theological formation was in Yugoslavia (as it was then.)  My spiritual father and the person who tonsured me into the monastic life was Fr Archimandrite Dositej of Zica (eternal memory).  Fr Dositej had been the personal disciple and cell attendant of Saint Nikolai Velimirovic and he was tonsured a monk and ordained a priest by him. His teaching was that there are no sacraments outside Orthodoxy and that includes Baptism.)  

See message 18 at http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28315.msg446330.html#msg446330

On the other hand, there are Serbian bishops who accept the authenticity of Roman Catholic Sacraments.

Now I am in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad which accepts the same teaching as Fr Dositej and the Serbs.

On the other hand,  since 2007 and the union of ROCA with Moscow, I have been a member of the Russian Patriarchate also.

This is an example of the fluidity and even vagueness which characterises Orthodoxy in this area.

I believe it is not right to present one or other view and not mention that  there are other views in the Orthodox world.
 

On that, I agree very much.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2011, 06:15:31 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.

I see no ecclesiology here. Just a bunch of armchair theologians venturing beyond their competency.

Pot, Kettle.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2011, 06:17:33 PM »


And for this, St. Cyril was martyred by Latin agents.

Oh!!...You study at the Romanity School of Alternate History!!... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Whatever.

I would think that if you really care to be taken seriously....

And yet your comment had nothing serious about it. I do not study at the Romanity School of anything. Of course I'm going to be flippant when you spew the inside jokes of your own head and expect to be understood.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2011, 06:22:31 PM »


Schismatics are deprived of the hope of salvation not only because their baptism is invalid...

Jah , this is so heavy-handed and unnuanced that it becomes a vehicle of falsehood in the minds of those who hear it.

Here are the much wiser words of Metropolitan Philaret, reposed in 1985, the holy First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad:


“The Holy Orthodox Church is the repository of the divinely revealed Truth in all its fullness and fidelity to apostolic Tradition. Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with eternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold.

“It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way."

N.B.:   “Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions... The Lord... undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way.”

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,959


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2011, 06:27:09 PM »


Schismatics are deprived of the hope of salvation not only because their baptism is invalid...

Jah , this is so heavy-handed and unnuanced that it becomes a vehicle of falsehood in the minds of those who hear it.

Here are the much wiser words of Metropolitan Philaret, reposed in 1985, the holy First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad:


“The Holy Orthodox Church is the repository of the divinely revealed Truth in all its fullness and fidelity to apostolic Tradition. Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with eternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold.

“It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way."

N.B.:   “Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions... The Lord... undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way.”

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx


I like that statement of the Blessed Metropolitan very much, though it probably has as much chance of getting on a scroll held by him when he is glorified as St. Leo the Great's papal claims do in an Orthodox icon of him.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2011, 06:33:33 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

Yes, God forbid that we should rejoice that He has enlightened us with the light of His truth. All rather unnecessary of Him, really.

What Jah presented is indeed what is held by some Orthodox.  But there are alternate views and I would suspect that the alternate views are the majority. 

I thought it important to learn the teaching of the Russian Orthodox Church.  It is not a small and unimportant Church.

I am speaking of the question of whether the Roman Catholics and Miaphysites have Sacraments/Mysteries.   The other idea promoted by Jah that they are damned to hell is too dreadful to contemplate.  "Enjoy the fires, Mrs McGillicuddy!  Your love of Jesus won't help you now!'
 
Logged
podkarpatska
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 7,582


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2011, 07:06:24 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

Yes, God forbid that we should rejoice that He has enlightened us with the light of His truth. All rather unnecessary of Him, really.

What Jah presented is indeed what is held by some Orthodox.  But there are alternate views and I would suspect that the alternate views are the majority. 

I thought it important to learn the teaching of the Russian Orthodox Church.  It is not a small and unimportant Church.

I am speaking of the question of whether the Roman Catholics and Miaphysites have Sacraments/Mysteries.   The other idea promoted by Jah that they are damned to hell is too dreadful to contemplate.  "Enjoy the fires, Mrs McGillicuddy!  Your love of Jesus won't help you now!'
 

Indeed, thank you Father. Your comments carry more weight than mine might as you and I, while sharing many opinions and beliefs, do tend to approach our relationship with our Roman brothers from 'opposite sides of the room', but at least the same room!
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #81 on: December 22, 2011, 07:15:35 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

Yes, God forbid that we should rejoice that He has enlightened us with the light of His truth. All rather unnecessary of Him, really.

What Jah presented is indeed what is held by some Orthodox.  But there are alternate views and I would suspect that the alternate views are the majority. 

I thought it important to learn the teaching of the Russian Orthodox Church.  It is not a small and unimportant Church.

I am speaking of the question of whether the Roman Catholics and Miaphysites have Sacraments/Mysteries.   The other idea promoted by Jah that they are damned to hell is too dreadful to contemplate.  "Enjoy the fires, Mrs McGillicuddy!  Your love of Jesus won't help you now!'
 

Indeed, thank you Father. Your comments carry more weight than mine might as you and I, while sharing many opinions and beliefs, do tend to approach our relationship with our Roman brothers from 'opposite sides of the room', but at least the same room!

Dear Podkarpatska,

Have a look at Message 19
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28315.msg446335.html#msg446335

It pretty much encompasses my personal attitude.

Would it be close to yours?
Logged
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Netodox
Jurisdiction: OC.net
Posts: 4,171

Work hard, pray hard.


« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2011, 07:29:32 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.

I see no ecclesiology here. Just a bunch of armchair theologians venturing beyond their competency.

I don't know about that. Jah777 and Shanghaiski have at least provided citations and quoted Fathers. You've just gotten indignant and questioned people's sanity.
Logged

I wish you'd all just shut up. Then at least you would appear to be wise. - Job 13:5 ISV
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2011, 07:33:57 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.

I see no ecclesiology here. Just a bunch of armchair theologians venturing beyond their competency.

I don't know about that. Jah777 and Shanghaiski have at least provided citations and quoted Fathers. You've just gotten indignant and questioned people's sanity.

This who wish to believe that Pope Benedict and Mrs McGillicuddy are going to hell - well, I hope they will not be judged as they judge.

I know Jah's bishop and I know him well enough to know he would be horrified and indignant himself.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #84 on: December 22, 2011, 07:38:02 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.

I see no ecclesiology here. Just a bunch of armchair theologians venturing beyond their competency.

I don't know about that. Jah777 and Shanghaiski have at least provided citations and quoted Fathers. You've just gotten indignant and questioned people's sanity.

On the other hand I have provided sources from the Russian Orthodox Church, synodal decrees which have been in force for 400 years.  I have also provided an important citation from the First Hierarch of my Church (which is also Jah's.)
Logged
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Netodox
Jurisdiction: OC.net
Posts: 4,171

Work hard, pray hard.


« Reply #85 on: December 22, 2011, 07:49:35 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.

I see no ecclesiology here. Just a bunch of armchair theologians venturing beyond their competency.

I don't know about that. Jah777 and Shanghaiski have at least provided citations and quoted Fathers. You've just gotten indignant and questioned people's sanity.

This who wish to believe that Pope Benedict and Mrs McGillicuddy are going to hell - well, I hope they will not be judged as they judge.

I know Jah's bishop and I know him well enough to know he would be horrified and indignant himself.

Father, I don't think that either jah777 or Shanghaiski believe that Mrs. McGillicuddy is necessarily damned. I don't think that a rejection of Catholic sacraments is tantamount to that.

Do you think the belief that Catholic sacraments are graceless is a valid theologoumenon? Or do you think that it is merely "rampant triumphalism" as Cavaradossi says?
Logged

I wish you'd all just shut up. Then at least you would appear to be wise. - Job 13:5 ISV
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,474



« Reply #86 on: December 22, 2011, 07:50:34 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.

I see no ecclesiology here. Just a bunch of armchair theologians venturing beyond their competency.

I don't know about that. Jah777 and Shanghaiski have at least provided citations and quoted Fathers. You've just gotten indignant and questioned people's sanity.

Basically, opinion in Orthodoxy is divided. Fr. Ambrose's posts should be evidence enough. So all of this foolish and presumptuous talk of knowing the answers needs to stop, because Orthodoxy does not have one yet.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #87 on: December 22, 2011, 07:54:21 PM »

God be praised. I was waiting for Fr. Ambrose to step in here and lay a smackdown on the rampant triumphalism in this thread.

The rampant Orthodox ecclesiology, you mean.

I see no ecclesiology here. Just a bunch of armchair theologians venturing beyond their competency.

I don't know about that. Jah777 and Shanghaiski have at least provided citations and quoted Fathers. You've just gotten indignant and questioned people's sanity.

This who wish to believe that Pope Benedict and Mrs McGillicuddy are going to hell - well, I hope they will not be judged as they judge.

I know Jah's bishop and I know him well enough to know he would be horrified and indignant himself.

Father, I don't think that either jah777 or Shanghaiski believe that Mrs. McGillicuddy is necessarily damned. I don't think that a rejection of Catholic sacraments is tantamount to that.

Do you think the belief that Catholic sacraments are graceless is a valid theologoumenon? Or do you think that it is merely "rampant triumphalism" as Cavaradossi says?

My belief?  Have a look at Message 19
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28315.msg446335.html#msg446335

Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #88 on: December 22, 2011, 07:57:53 PM »



The important issue is not when certain groups lost sacramental grace, but where is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Outside of the one Church there are no sacraments, only sacramental forms.


I am a member of the Church of Russia.  My Church disagrees with you.


Here is another side to the matter .... the historical and present day Russian synodal teaching and canons as regards Roman Catholic (and Miaphysite) sacraments.

It can be summarised succinctly by saying that it is the true Body and Blood of Christ which a Catholic or Miaphysite priest gives to his parishioners and the Pope and his bishops are genuine bishops.

This overview is from Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff, the senior most priest of the Russian Church in the West.  (I have placed his messages in a group which allows public access.)


The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2943

The Russian Church and Catholic Sacraments #2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/2944


So, does this mean that I (along with all my other fellow Catholics) am *not* anathematized, and a heretic?

JM, the Confused

It seems to be an area where we are going to have to live with these paradoxes for some time to come. laugh

We certainly are in agreement about that, Father  Wink.

My life has been full of paradoxes and over the years (I am not too much younger than you), I have learned to deal with them, and to even "make friends" with them, not infrequently being quite comfortable with them, if that's the right term to use.  A case in point is my ecclesial status.  If some in Orthodoxy consider me and my fellow Catholics to be "outside the Church" or anathematized heretics, I can easily live with that, though I may not "like" it.  I can because I know that God is greater than that, that His Mercy is Infinite, and it will be Him, not this Orthodox bishop, that Pope, that netodox layperson, or whoever, who will be my Judge.  I trust, too, that with His Grace we will, one day, be reunited.

Hope you have a wonderful, merry, and most blessed Christmas!

Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2011, 07:58:08 PM »

Father, I don't think that either jah777 or Shanghaiski believe that Mrs. McGillicuddy is necessarily damned.



Schismatics are deprived of the hope of salvation not only because their baptism is invalid...
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.271 seconds with 72 queries.