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Author Topic: Would this make sense ecclesiologically?  (Read 4802 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #135 on: December 24, 2011, 01:35:39 PM »

Even if Churches reunite today. Many in the past will remain graceless.

We know where grace is, but we do not know where it is not.
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« Reply #136 on: December 24, 2011, 01:58:09 PM »

Oh, but I am relieved!  Enormously so.  

I don't get what the point of saying that is. It's incredibly obnoxious, rude and uncharitable. I, as an ex-Roman Catholic, do not go up to my Catholic parents and tell them how relieved I am that I no longer belong to what I perceive as their liberalizing, liturgically irreverent and minimalist, heretical church. You, as an ex-Orthodox, should show the same respect and common decency. It really is pretty unbecoming.  Undecided

Quote
Can you tell me which Catholic theologians and clergy have asserted that Catholics who have become Orthodox have denied Christ?  With some referenced sources?
I would think that such a position would be natural considering how the RCC sees itself as the true church of Jesus Christ and sees the Orthodox Churches as defective. Wouldn't leaving the true church of Christ for one that is "defective" be, in some capacity, rejecting Him?

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Now...I am outta here and signing off for the night.

Merry Christmas!!!  Wink Wink

Merry Christmas! Christ is born!  Smiley



William,

My comment was the truth.  As such it was also no more "incredibly obnoxious, rude and uncharitable" than the untrue and inflammatory comments which were made by Shanghaiski about Eastern Catholics denying Christ, which showed no respect or common decency toward his fellow Christians.  I'm sorry you felt offended by my comments, and apologize for having giving you offense.  Beyond that, the comments stand as written.

Even if the Catholic Church sees Orthodoxy as in some ways "defective" we do not exclude you from being part of the true Body of Christ, nor do we claim that you have denied Him.

And you still haven't told us which Catholic theologians and clergy have asserted that Catholics who have become Orthodox have denied Christ.  Are you able to do so?

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Thank you for coming to the defense of my departed Greek Catholic ancestors and those living who did not follow my Grandfathers back into the Orthodox Church. In my family, we were taught to respect them and pray for their intentions and remember the departed. I pray that I am CERTAIN, or at least as certain as a human may be, that they too share in the grace and loving embrace of our Lord and Savior and are under the protection of our Most Holy Mother Mary, the Birthgiver of God and Theotokas. How that is so I leave to the wisdom of God. After all, as Paul reminds us, we see things now as a child or as through a dark mirror. Trust in the Lord and in his Wisdom.

It was their steadfastness that preserved the light and the Faith through and beyond the difficulties caused by the Unias and the struggles in the Americas and in Europe.

The mere fact that our clergy do not concelebrate the Mysteries tells us the obvious; that too each other, in some way or ways, West and East view the other as 'defective.' Let's not beat a dead horse during this season of joy and miracles!

Christos Razdajetsja! Slavite Jeho!

s'bohom

David



 Wink

David,

I would stand up for the Orthodox in exactly the same manner if any of my Catholic brethren were to make the same kinds of outrageous statements that Shanghaiski made.  Even though we are not in communion with each other (except for here and there, "unofficially"  Grin) we are all still the true Body of Christ.

Christos Razdajetsja! Slavite Jeho!

JM

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« Reply #137 on: December 24, 2011, 03:02:08 PM »

Oh, but I am relieved!  Enormously so.  

I don't get what the point of saying that is. It's incredibly obnoxious, rude and uncharitable. I, as an ex-Roman Catholic, do not go up to my Catholic parents and tell them how relieved I am that I no longer belong to what I perceive as their liberalizing, liturgically irreverent and minimalist, heretical church. You, as an ex-Orthodox, should show the same respect and common decency. It really is pretty unbecoming.  Undecided

Quote
Can you tell me which Catholic theologians and clergy have asserted that Catholics who have become Orthodox have denied Christ?  With some referenced sources?
I would think that such a position would be natural considering how the RCC sees itself as the true church of Jesus Christ and sees the Orthodox Churches as defective. Wouldn't leaving the true church of Christ for one that is "defective" be, in some capacity, rejecting Him?

Quote
Now...I am outta here and signing off for the night.

Merry Christmas!!!  Wink Wink

Merry Christmas! Christ is born!  Smiley



William,

My comment was the truth.  As such it was also no more "incredibly obnoxious, rude and uncharitable" than the untrue and inflammatory comments which were made by Shanghaiski about Eastern Catholics denying Christ, which showed no respect or common decency toward his fellow Christians.  I'm sorry you felt offended by my comments, and apologize for having giving you offense.  Beyond that, the comments stand as written.

Even if the Catholic Church sees Orthodoxy as in some ways "defective" we do not exclude you from being part of the true Body of Christ, nor do we claim that you have denied Him.

And you still haven't told us which Catholic theologians and clergy have asserted that Catholics who have become Orthodox have denied Christ.  Are you able to do so?

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Thank you for coming to the defense of my departed Greek Catholic ancestors and those living who did not follow my Grandfathers back into the Orthodox Church. In my family, we were taught to respect them and pray for their intentions and remember the departed. I pray that I am CERTAIN, or at least as certain as a human may be, that they too share in the grace and loving embrace of our Lord and Savior and are under the protection of our Most Holy Mother Mary, the Birthgiver of God and Theotokas. How that is so I leave to the wisdom of God. After all, as Paul reminds us, we see things now as a child or as through a dark mirror. Trust in the Lord and in his Wisdom.

It was their steadfastness that preserved the light and the Faith through and beyond the difficulties caused by the Unias and the struggles in the Americas and in Europe.

The mere fact that our clergy do not concelebrate the Mysteries tells us the obvious; that too each other, in some way or ways, West and East view the other as 'defective.' Let's not beat a dead horse during this season of joy and miracles!

Christos Razdajetsja! Slavite Jeho!

s'bohom

David



I've always seen it as a strange combination of outrage against western bishops and obedience to eastern bishops rather than anything doctrinal that required schism.

I think some of these other kinds of stink-o's that we carry on about are really not as determinative as we'd like to tell ourselves...and one another, of course.

Outrage and obedience are pretty powerful stuff in their own rite...so to speak.   Wink

Blessed and holy Nativity!

Christ is Born!
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« Reply #138 on: December 24, 2011, 04:25:09 PM »


As for the complexity of this topic, I will simply point out that I was on the Indiana Orthodox list when Fr. Alexander originally posted his detailed history of the Russian Church's position. So in addition to seeing his documentation of the historical position,

Fr Alexander’s presentation appears to fall into a pre-reunion with Moscow line of thinking and a post-reunion approach.  As you know he has held and still holds important offices in the Church Abroad and I have had the impression that he is quietly and irenically leading ROCA away from its previous positions which emerged from legitimate apprehensions from the period of rampant ecumenism in the 60s and 70s and he is preparing us to return to the traditional positions of the Russian Church.  I admire him for that.

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I also saw him express full obedience and agreement with ROCOR's 1971 decision to start receiving Roman Catholics via baptism,

Because some bishops (for example Canada) refused to abandon the traditional Russian norms for the reception of converts the 1971 Synod had to draw back from mandating baptizing all converts and the resolution while strongly recommending Baptism leaves the decision about the mode of reception in the hands of the local bishop.   The 1971 recommendation was not implemented in the Australian and New Zealand diocese which went on adhering to pre-Revolutionary practices. Some priests however have been receiving by Baptism and so we now have a fluid situation in our diocese. 

In the Serbian Church I had baptized Roman Catholics for almost 20 years (including two priests and a nun) under explicit instructions from my Serbian bishops.  When I was transferred to the Church Abroad in 1996 I was specifically forbidden by my new Russian dean to continue these blanket Baptisms.  I was ordered to adhere to the pre-Revolutionary modes of reception of converts as in the Hapgood Service Book and to
cease baptizing Roman Catholics.

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« Reply #139 on: December 28, 2011, 03:43:55 PM »

Beyond that, the comments stand as written.

Lord, have mercy.

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Even if the Catholic Church sees Orthodoxy as in some ways "defective" we do not exclude you from being part of the true Body of Christ, nor do we claim that you have denied Him.

And you still haven't told us which Catholic theologians and clergy have asserted that Catholics who have become Orthodox have denied Christ.  Are you able to do so?

Interesting how you emphasize 'still' so much after one reply.

No, I don't have any quotes from Catholic theologians, although I am sure I could find some if I looked hard enough. But that is the impression I have been consistently given both during my time as a traditional Catholic and during my time as an inquirer into Orthodoxy.

At the very least, I can tell you that neither church officially accepts the Branch Theory which you seem to espouse.
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J Michael
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« Reply #140 on: December 28, 2011, 05:26:03 PM »

Beyond that, the comments stand as written.

Lord, have mercy.

Quote
Even if the Catholic Church sees Orthodoxy as in some ways "defective" we do not exclude you from being part of the true Body of Christ, nor do we claim that you have denied Him.

And you still haven't told us which Catholic theologians and clergy have asserted that Catholics who have become Orthodox have denied Christ.  Are you able to do so?

Interesting how you emphasize 'still' so much after one reply.

No, I don't have any quotes from Catholic theologians, although I am sure I could find some if I looked hard enough. But that is the impression I have been consistently given both during my time as a traditional Catholic and during my time as an inquirer into Orthodoxy.

At the very least, I can tell you that neither church officially accepts the Branch Theory which you seem to espouse.

Christ is Born!

What I seem to espouse is not precisely the Branch Theory as I understand it.  And if what I believe, or at least fervently hope for, is in error in the eyes of my Church, then I will depend upon her to correct me.  As far as I'm aware, I'm not denying any dogma or doctrine of the Church.  Just to be sure, I'll take it up with my priest at the next opportunity  Wink.

Be that as it may, I would just say that if you assert that Catholic theologians and clergy claim that those who translate from Catholicism to Orthodoxy have denied Christ, you really should be able to back it up with some references.  That is, after all, a very serious accusation, don't you think?  It's akin to accusing them, quite falsely, of becoming atheists or tree worshipers or idolators of "environmentalism", or cargo cultists.
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« Reply #141 on: December 28, 2011, 09:34:02 PM »

What I seem to espouse is not precisely the Branch Theory as I understand it. 
Perhaps you could clarify your position, then. So far I've seen you describe your ecclesiology as 'the one holy catholic and apostolic church manifests itself in the Catholic and Orthodox churches' which is pretty darn close to the Branch Theory.

Quote
And if what I believe, or at least fervently hope for, is in error in the eyes of my Church, then I will depend upon her to correct me.  As far as I'm aware, I'm not denying any dogma or doctrine of the Church.  Just to be sure, I'll take it up with my priest at the next opportunity  Wink.

I don't know. You didn't seem to care what your Church had to say when you were Orthodox and were canonically prohibited from receiving RC sacraments.

Quote
Be that as it may, I would just say that if you assert that Catholic theologians and clergy claim that those who translate from Catholicism to Orthodoxy have denied Christ, you really should be able to back it up with some references.  That is, after all, a very serious accusation, don't you think?  It's akin to accusing them, quite falsely, of becoming atheists or tree worshipers or idolators of "environmentalism", or cargo cultists.

It isn't really akin to those things because those things don't make perfect sense according to Catholic ecclesiology and I haven't personally been given that impression (well actually my old, super liberal RC priest liked doing Native American rituals but that's kind of tangential).

Are you going to keep ignoring my actual point? Both churches have exclusivistic ecclesiologies. Shanghaiski simply presented the Orthodox ecclesiology in a polemical way. Point being, rejoicing in being Catholic because he phrased something polemically is kind of asinine when a member of your own church could easily say the same thing.
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« Reply #142 on: December 29, 2011, 01:29:06 PM »

What I seem to espouse is not precisely the Branch Theory as I understand it. 
Perhaps you could clarify your position, then. So far I've seen you describe your ecclesiology as 'the one holy catholic and apostolic church manifests itself in the Catholic and Orthodox churches' which is pretty darn close to the Branch Theory.

Quote
And if what I believe, or at least fervently hope for, is in error in the eyes of my Church, then I will depend upon her to correct me.  As far as I'm aware, I'm not denying any dogma or doctrine of the Church.  Just to be sure, I'll take it up with my priest at the next opportunity  Wink.

I don't know. You didn't seem to care what your Church had to say when you were Orthodox and were canonically prohibited from receiving RC sacraments.

Quote
Be that as it may, I would just say that if you assert that Catholic theologians and clergy claim that those who translate from Catholicism to Orthodoxy have denied Christ, you really should be able to back it up with some references.  That is, after all, a very serious accusation, don't you think?  It's akin to accusing them, quite falsely, of becoming atheists or tree worshipers or idolators of "environmentalism", or cargo cultists.

It isn't really akin to those things because those things don't make perfect sense according to Catholic ecclesiology and I haven't personally been given that impression (well actually my old, super liberal RC priest liked doing Native American rituals but that's kind of tangential).

Are you going to keep ignoring my actual point? Both churches have exclusivistic ecclesiologies. Shanghaiski simply presented the Orthodox ecclesiology in a polemical way. Point being, rejoicing in being Catholic because he phrased something polemically is kind of asinine when a member of your own church could easily say the same thing.

Wishing you a blessed Nativity and a very happy New Year!  Smiley Kiss
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« Reply #143 on: December 29, 2011, 06:10:41 PM »



Are you going to keep ignoring my actual point? Both churches have exclusivistic ecclesiologies. Shanghaiski simply presented the Orthodox ecclesiology in a polemical way. Point being, rejoicing in being Catholic because he phrased something polemically is kind of asinine when a member of your own church could easily say the same thing.

Your actual point is a bust because the Catholic Church does not see Orthodoxy in the same negative light as Orthodoxy seems to see the Catholic Church.

So you represent a view of the Catholic Church that is false.

Why should we respond to it?

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« Reply #144 on: December 29, 2011, 10:09:15 PM »



Are you going to keep ignoring my actual point? Both churches have exclusivistic ecclesiologies. Shanghaiski simply presented the Orthodox ecclesiology in a polemical way. Point being, rejoicing in being Catholic because he phrased something polemically is kind of asinine when a member of your own church could easily say the same thing.

Your actual point is a bust because the Catholic Church does not see Orthodoxy in the same negative light as Orthodoxy seems to see the Catholic Church.

I'm not sure how Orthodoxy sees Catholicism in a negative light. Denial of the validity of sacraments isn't a personal insult or anything. There's not really anything particularly negative about it unless you become one of those "the RC is demonic" people.

Quote
So you represent a view of the Catholic Church that is false.

Why should we respond to it?

You can find plenty of RC "Shanghaiskis" (no offense to Shanghaiski as I don't really have a problem with what he said). Go look at a thread on Orthodoxy at fisheaters.com sometime.

But if you don't want to "respond to it," by all means, don't.  Smiley
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« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2011, 10:14:17 PM »



Are you going to keep ignoring my actual point? Both churches have exclusivistic ecclesiologies. Shanghaiski simply presented the Orthodox ecclesiology in a polemical way. Point being, rejoicing in being Catholic because he phrased something polemically is kind of asinine when a member of your own church could easily say the same thing.

Your actual point is a bust because the Catholic Church does not see Orthodoxy in the same negative light as Orthodoxy seems to see the Catholic Church.

I'm not sure how Orthodoxy sees Catholicism in a negative light.

The Catholic Church does not claim exclusivity as the Body of Christ, and accepts grace in Orthodox sacraments and Apostolic Succession in Orthodoxy.

She accepts Orthodoxy as one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

The things you were saying indicate you don't know that.

That was what I was trying to convey to you actually.

M.
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« Reply #146 on: January 17, 2012, 01:20:31 AM »

This issue was discussed some time ago at another forum.  Here is a link to the information posted there:

Hilarion of Volokolamsk-"Schismatic" Sacraments Not Grace-Giving

Metropolitan Hilarion is speaking of the lack of grace in the Mysteries of the Ukrainian Patriarchate which constitutes a recent schism from the Church of Russia.  The Russian Synod of bishops made a decision to defrock the "Patriarch" and return him to the state of a layman.   This was a legitimate use of their powers of binding and loosing.  Previously he had been a member of the Russian Synod.   Naturally they declared all his Mysteries to be graceless and ineffectual.
Give it a few centuries. Once the UOCKP is an historically established denomination I'm sure some synod will notice how similar in faith they are and will declare that they have grace despite schism. Somehow.
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