Topic: Why young Christians aren't waiting anymore (article)

[xariskai]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/

Why Young Christians Aren't Waiting Anymore by John Blake (CNN)

–True love doesn’t wait after all.That’s the implication in the upcoming October issue of an evangelical magazine that claims that young, unmarried Christians are having premarital sex almost as much as their non-Christian peers.The article in Relevant magazine, entitled “(Almost) Everyone’s Doing It,” cited several studies examining the sexual activity of single Christians.

...80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

[Alveus Lacuna]

They're probably not waiting because biology is working against them. Arranged marriages by 14 people. Come on!

[ialmisry]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/

Why Young Christians Aren't Waiting Anymore by John Blake (CNN)

–True love doesn’t wait after all.That’s the implication in the upcoming October issue of an evangelical magazine that claims that young, unmarried Christians are having premarital sex almost as much as their non-Christian peers.The article in Relevant magazine, entitled “(Almost) Everyone’s Doing It,” cited several studies examining the sexual activity of single Christians.

...80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

I was shocked (pleasantly) to find out that a survey of Orthodox teens found out that only 5.57% of them say premarital sex is OK.

[vamrat]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/

Why Young Christians Aren't Waiting Anymore by John Blake (CNN)

–True love doesn’t wait after all.That’s the implication in the upcoming October issue of an evangelical magazine that claims that young, unmarried Christians are having premarital sex almost as much as their non-Christian peers.The article in Relevant magazine, entitled “(Almost) Everyone’s Doing It,” cited several studies examining the sexual activity of single Christians.

...80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

I was shocked (pleasantly) to find out that a survey of Orthodox teens found out that only 5.57% of them say premarital sex is OK.

Saying something is not ok and not actually doing it are different animals.  I think Alveus Lacuna is on the right track, regardless of whether or not he was being sarcastic.

[akimori makoto]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/

Why Young Christians Aren't Waiting Anymore by John Blake (CNN)

–True love doesn’t wait after all.That’s the implication in the upcoming October issue of an evangelical magazine that claims that young, unmarried Christians are having premarital sex almost as much as their non-Christian peers.The article in Relevant magazine, entitled “(Almost) Everyone’s Doing It,” cited several studies examining the sexual activity of single Christians.

...80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

I was shocked (pleasantly) to find out that a survey of Orthodox teens found out that only 5.57% of them say premarital sex is OK.

Saying something is not ok and not actually doing it are different animals.  I think Alveus Lacuna is on the right track, regardless of whether or not he was being sarcastic.

I agree completely.

The Scriptures clearly state that one of the reasons for marriage is to provide an appropriate context for expression of sexual desire. This seems to suggest that those who cannot live a chaste single life (apparently the majority) should marry.

The idea that marriage is for "mature" people in their late 20s and early 30s is very strange to me.

[xariskai]

I was shocked (pleasantly) to find out that a survey of Orthodox teens found out that only 5.57% of them say premarital sex is OK.

Saying something is not ok and not actually doing it are different animals.  I think Alveus Lacuna is on the right track, regardless of whether or not he was being sarcastic.

Googling for ialmisry's survey of Orthodox teens (using the 5.57% figure as part of the search) I found this: http://www.antiochian.org/pre-marital_sexual_relations  

"The survey strongly indicates an association between whether teens believe sex outside of marriage is right and whether they themselves engage in pre-marital sexual relations. [1]...
[1]Four percent of teens that believe that pre-marital sex is wrong have had a sexual relation, while 38 percent who believe pre-marital sex is right have had a sexual relationship."

We must add the apples to oranges caveat that the other survey of evangelicals was not just of teens but of young adults to age 29 leaving us to wonder what the results might have been if the Orthodox survey had included single persons up to an additional decade in age or if the evangelical survey had included only teens. I also have to agree with others here that the delayed age for marriage in contemporary societies doesn't make the discipline of chastity any easier, especially in the sex-obsessed environment of contemporary culture.

[ialmisry]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/

Why Young Christians Aren't Waiting Anymore by John Blake (CNN)

–True love doesn’t wait after all.That’s the implication in the upcoming October issue of an evangelical magazine that claims that young, unmarried Christians are having premarital sex almost as much as their non-Christian peers.The article in Relevant magazine, entitled “(Almost) Everyone’s Doing It,” cited several studies examining the sexual activity of single Christians.

...80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

I was shocked (pleasantly) to find out that a survey of Orthodox teens found out that only 5.57% of them say premarital sex is OK.

Saying something is not ok and not actually doing it are different animals.  I think Alveus Lacuna is on the right track, regardless of whether or not he was being sarcastic.

I know he is on the right track. However, the stats on those who say premarital sex is wrong and do it anyway are far outnumbered by those who say it is OK and act on it.

I remember quite a few morons criticizing one of the Jonas brothers getting married so early, and attributed it to his desire to keep his chastity vow. They predicted he would live to regret it.  Oh?  Are those who burned themselves in a sexual marathon of partners from 13 to 30 all that much happier?  Have they laid the foundation better for a lifetime commitment?  Will they ever make such a committment?  Given the plumeting of the rate of marriage (and children), I think not.

[FountainPen]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/27/why-young-christians-arent-waiting-anymore/

Why Young Christians Aren't Waiting Anymore by John Blake (CNN)

–True love doesn’t wait after all.That’s the implication in the upcoming October issue of an evangelical magazine that claims that young, unmarried Christians are having premarital sex almost as much as their non-Christian peers.The article in Relevant magazine, entitled “(Almost) Everyone’s Doing It,” cited several studies examining the sexual activity of single Christians.

...80 percent of unmarried evangelical young adults (18 to 29) said that they have had sex - slightly less than 88 percent of unmarried adults, according to the teen pregnancy prevention organization.

I was shocked (pleasantly) to find out that a survey of Orthodox teens found out that only 5.57% of them say premarital sex is OK.

Saying something is not ok and not actually doing it are different animals.  I think Alveus Lacuna is on the right track, regardless of whether or not he was being sarcastic.

I agree completely.

The Scriptures clearly state that one of the reasons for marriage is to provide an appropriate context for expression of sexual desire. This seems to suggest that those who cannot live a chaste single life (apparently the majority) should marry.

The idea that marriage is for "mature" people in their late 20s and early 30s is very strange to me.

I don't know why people who are older should be regarded as having a better prognosis as i don't think maturity is key when it comes to longevity in marriage. I think it's more to do with understanding of what exactly a marriage covenant is and if you understand that, then it's not left to 'chance' as some people seem to think.

I don't think we're slaves to our biology either, i think we're all more slaves to our emotional needs.

[PeterTheAleut]

I think this article came up on this forum quite recently. Let me see if I can find it.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Wait, a bunch of "Christians" leave the sanctity and Grace of the Church to fend for themselves entirely by "faith" and "Scripture" and then they wonder why their kids do not have the Grace to maintain God's plan?  If their marriages aren't Sacramental what is the point of waiting in the first place? People are people, sexuality is complicated.  We live in God's Grace, inherent in the Mysteries, precisely because outside of God's Grace our bodies make no sense to us, let alone our spirits.  We need Confession, Holy Communion, ordained Clergy to guide us, and of course Holy Matrimony to sanctify our sexuality in God's Grace!

I am therefore not surprised at all to find Protestantism and Evangelicalism in a state of moral decline, they are essentially humanists, not Sacramental Christians. Sacramentality is the belief that God cooperates with humanity specifically through the Seven Divine Mysteries, but when Protestants outright reject the Sacraments, where is there room for God's Grace in their lives?

I pray for me, them, and us all!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Justin Kissel]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Wait, a bunch of "Christians" leave the sanctity and Grace of the Church to fend for themselves entirely by "faith" and "Scripture" and then they wonder why their kids do not have the Grace to maintain God's plan?  If their marriages aren't Sacramental what is the point of waiting in the first place? People are people, sexuality is complicated.  We live in God's Grace, inherent in the Mysteries, precisely because outside of God's Grace our bodies make no sense to us, let alone our spirits.  We need Confession, Holy Communion, ordained Clergy to guide us, and of course Holy Matrimony to sanctify our sexuality in God's Grace!

I am therefore not surprised at all to find Protestantism and Evangelicalism in a state of moral decline, they are essentially humanists, not Sacramental Christians. Sacramentality is the belief that God cooperates with humanity specifically through the Seven Divine Mysteries, but when Protestants outright reject the Sacraments, where is there room for God's Grace in their lives?

I pray for me, them, and us all!

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I think you are being overly critical of them. Both my wife and I were Orthodox when we were engaged, and it certainly wasn't easy for us.  And even though we were virgins when we married, I can't say that we conducted ourselves in such a way that we never had to confess anything. And to whatever extent we were successful in meeting our goal of not having sex before marriage, I think that was due mostly to our having thought about the matter and made a decision to wait, and was not dependent on what Church we were in. I'm not saying that being in Orthodoxy made (or makes) no difference, only that I don't think being outside Orthodoxy or in Protestantism is as harmful as you are making it out to be.

Though my patron saint Justin Popovich would probably disagree with me vehemently  

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I think you are being overly critical of them. Both my wife and I were Orthodox when we were engaged, and it certainly wasn't easy for us.  And even though we were virgins when we married, I can't say that we conducted ourselves in such a way that we never had to confess anything. And to whatever extent we were successful in meeting our goal of not having sex before marriage, I think that was due mostly to our having thought about the matter and made a decision to wait, and was not dependent on what Church we were in. I'm not saying that being in Orthodoxy made (or makes) no difference, only that I don't think being outside Orthodoxy or in Protestantism is as harmful as you are making it out to be.

Though my patron saint Justin Popovich would probably disagree with me vehemently  

I am sorry, I think you misunderstood my post. It is not because of our own human efforts or ideas that we succeed in marriage or virginity, it is ENTIRELY A MATTER OF GOD'S GRACE.  Further, we in the Church know that Grace stems from the Mysteries.  So that being said, I am arguing that Protestants are being TOO HARD ON THEMSELVES in essentially trying to achieve virginity and marriage entirely on their own efforts.  In the Church, marriage is a Sacrament, it works in synergy with God's Grace, but in the Protestant churches marriage is a symbol, or a legalistic contract like in the Jews/Muslims traditions.  They do not believe necessarily in Sacramentality of Grace, and so they are denying themselves the assistance of God to help them and their children, and so to me it is no surprise that in mass numbers they are failing.  We in Orthodox would also fail miserably if we were to rely upon our own human strength of will to succeed at virginity or marriage, and I do not teach the kids in my Sunday School classes that they will succeed by force of will. We teach virginity and marriage in the context of God's Grace, not strictly human effort or submission. God helps us to maintain our integrity, and further to maintain our marriages.  I am not trying to say that God does not grant His Grace to folks outside of the Church, but it is the Protestants themselves who openly deny the Sacramentality of Marriage, and according to Church theology, it is precisely the Sacramentality of Marriage that allows for its success in the first place

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[biro]

I think that's true. Lack of participation in the Sacraments makes things extremely difficult. I've always thought this was one of the saddest things about the Reformation, and this is one of those ways in which it 'comes home to roost.'

[Justin Kissel]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I think you are being overly critical of them. Both my wife and I were Orthodox when we were engaged, and it certainly wasn't easy for us.  And even though we were virgins when we married, I can't say that we conducted ourselves in such a way that we never had to confess anything. And to whatever extent we were successful in meeting our goal of not having sex before marriage, I think that was due mostly to our having thought about the matter and made a decision to wait, and was not dependent on what Church we were in. I'm not saying that being in Orthodoxy made (or makes) no difference, only that I don't think being outside Orthodoxy or in Protestantism is as harmful as you are making it out to be.

Though my patron saint Justin Popovich would probably disagree with me vehemently  

I am sorry, I think you misunderstood my post. It is not because of our own human efforts or ideas that we succeed in marriage or virginity, it is ENTIRELY A MATTER OF GOD'S GRACE.  Further, we in the Church know that Grace stems from the Mysteries.  So that being said, I am arguing that Protestants are being TOO HARD ON THEMSELVES in essentially trying to achieve virginity and marriage entirely on their own efforts.  In the Church, marriage is a Sacrament, it works in synergy with God's Grace, but in the Protestant churches marriage is a symbol, or a legalistic contract like in the Jews/Muslims traditions.  They do not believe necessarily in Sacramentality of Grace, and so they are denying themselves the assistance of God to help them and their children, and so to me it is no surprise that in mass numbers they are failing.  We in Orthodox would also fail miserably if we were to rely upon our own human strength of will to succeed at virginity or marriage, and I do not teach the kids in my Sunday School classes that they will succeed by force of will. We teach virginity and marriage in the context of God's Grace, not strictly human effort or submission. God helps us to maintain our integrity, and further to maintain our marriages.  I am not trying to say that God does not grant His Grace to folks outside of the Church, but it is the Protestants themselves who openly deny the Sacramentality of Marriage, and according to Church theology, it is precisely the Sacramentality of Marriage that allows for its success in the first place

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Ahh, thank you, yes, I did misunderstand what you were saying

[FountainPen]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I think you are being overly critical of them. Both my wife and I were Orthodox when we were engaged, and it certainly wasn't easy for us.  And even though we were virgins when we married, I can't say that we conducted ourselves in such a way that we never had to confess anything. And to whatever extent we were successful in meeting our goal of not having sex before marriage, I think that was due mostly to our having thought about the matter and made a decision to wait, and was not dependent on what Church we were in. I'm not saying that being in Orthodoxy made (or makes) no difference, only that I don't think being outside Orthodoxy or in Protestantism is as harmful as you are making it out to be.

Though my patron saint Justin Popovich would probably disagree with me vehemently  

I am sorry, I think you misunderstood my post. It is not because of our own human efforts or ideas that we succeed in marriage or virginity, it is ENTIRELY A MATTER OF GOD'S GRACE.  Further, we in the Church know that Grace stems from the Mysteries.  So that being said, I am arguing that Protestants are being TOO HARD ON THEMSELVES in essentially trying to achieve virginity and marriage entirely on their own efforts.  In the Church, marriage is a Sacrament, it works in synergy with God's Grace, but in the Protestant churches marriage is a symbol, or a legalistic contract like in the Jews/Muslims traditions.  They do not believe necessarily in Sacramentality of Grace, and so they are denying themselves the assistance of God to help them and their children, and so to me it is no surprise that in mass numbers they are failing.  We in Orthodox would also fail miserably if we were to rely upon our own human strength of will to succeed at virginity or marriage, and I do not teach the kids in my Sunday School classes that they will succeed by force of will. We teach virginity and marriage in the context of God's Grace, not strictly human effort or submission. God helps us to maintain our integrity, and further to maintain our marriages.  I am not trying to say that God does not grant His Grace to folks outside of the Church, but it is the Protestants themselves who openly deny the Sacramentality of Marriage, and according to Church theology, it is precisely the Sacramentality of Marriage that allows for its success in the first place

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Is orthodoxy doing any better with youth abstinence and longevity of marriage? It doesn't seem to me that they are. It seems that all flavours of Christianity could do with a bit more back bone.

[augustin717]

All of my Orthodox peers back home didn't seem to wait for anything.
And the confession think was easy enough. I remember that we were only 14 or so, and went to confession during Lent and the priest was already euphemistically  asking the girls whether they "jumped the fence". And later on, it went the same, a quick question, a n admission followed by absolution, and communion.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Is orthodoxy doing any better with youth abstinence and longevity of marriage? It doesn't seem to me that they are. It seems that all flavours of Christianity could do with a bit more back bone.

Whether or not our youth are "waiting" for marriage or not, Orthodox marriages on par tend to be stronger, last longer, and be more community oriented than "Protestant" marriages.  Further, if you are a single-20 something in the Orthodox Church you'll find quite quickly that most folks your age are already married, so clearly we are doing something right

Of course, I wouldn't argue that Orthodox marriages seem to be stronger because of our own human efforts or because our marriages are inherently more perfect than any other marriage, rather our culture idealizes marriage and scorns divorace, so Orthodox Christians tend to respect and revere the permanence of their marriage, where as American marriage in particular really is evolving into a matter of convience and divorace is increasingly becoming a normative option, where as in Orthodox such is truly last resort, both socially, personally, and theologically.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[FountainPen]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Is orthodoxy doing any better with youth abstinence and longevity of marriage? It doesn't seem to me that they are. It seems that all flavours of Christianity could do with a bit more back bone.

Whether or not our youth are "waiting" for marriage or not, Orthodox marriages on par tend to be stronger, last longer, and be more community oriented than "Protestant" marriages.  Further, if you are a single-20 something in the Orthodox Church you'll find quite quickly that most folks your age are already married, so clearly we are doing something right

Of course, I wouldn't argue that Orthodox marriages seem to be stronger because of our own human efforts or because our marriages are inherently more perfect than any other marriage, rather our culture idealizes marriage and scorns divorace, so Orthodox Christians tend to respect and revere the permanence of their marriage, where as American marriage in particular really is evolving into a matter of convience and divorace is increasingly becoming a normative option, where as in Orthodox such is truly last resort, both socially, personally, and theologically.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I'd have to go with statistics rather than a biased opinion.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Is orthodoxy doing any better with youth abstinence and longevity of marriage? It doesn't seem to me that they are. It seems that all flavours of Christianity could do with a bit more back bone.

Whether or not our youth are "waiting" for marriage or not, Orthodox marriages on par tend to be stronger, last longer, and be more community oriented than "Protestant" marriages.  Further, if you are a single-20 something in the Orthodox Church you'll find quite quickly that most folks your age are already married, so clearly we are doing something right

Of course, I wouldn't argue that Orthodox marriages seem to be stronger because of our own human efforts or because our marriages are inherently more perfect than any other marriage, rather our culture idealizes marriage and scorns divorace, so Orthodox Christians tend to respect and revere the permanence of their marriage, where as American marriage in particular really is evolving into a matter of convience and divorace is increasingly becoming a normative option, where as in Orthodox such is truly last resort, both socially, personally, and theologically.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I'd have to go with statistics rather than a biased opinion.

To be sure I could easily quote you some statistics, but when exactly are statistics not biased

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[vamrat]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Is orthodoxy doing any better with youth abstinence and longevity of marriage? It doesn't seem to me that they are. It seems that all flavours of Christianity could do with a bit more back bone.

Further, if you are a single-20 something in the Orthodox Church you'll find quite quickly that most folks your age are already married, so clearly we are doing something right

Truth.  And if they aren't already married you have to resort to a blow torch and a pair of pliers to get the time of day out of them, which precludes anything naughtier taking place.

EDIT - Give me a week or so.  I might be less bitter then.  Or perhaps more so.  We'll see.

[brandb]

Who's to say it's "harder for Protestants"??

I and several of my friends are (male + female) Protestants and we've still got our V-cards. I have
Protest. friends who have "fooled around" and "lost it" but there's a still a fairly large group of us
who haven't done those things.

The issue isn't whether or not Orthodox marriages are lasting longer than Protestant marriages. It's
about who's having sex. Most statistics are not  done all that accurately, so forget the statistics.The
Orthodox are having the same failures as the heterodox, and quite frankly, since that's the case there's
something you're doing wrong as well.

As far whether/not the sacraments help goes, I'm 23 (my friends are also in their 20s), and according to
augustin

All of my Orthodox peers back home didn't seem to wait for anything.
And the confession think was easy enough. I remember that we were only 14 or so, and went to confession during Lent and the priest was already euphemistically  asking the girls whether they "jumped the fence". And later on, it went the same, a quick question, a n admission followed by absolution, and communion.

Many of your teens seem to take a very nonchalant view of confession and absolution. I had no such buffer. I only knew that I needed to what was right for me regardless of what other people said or did. Oh, sure, for a while it was the hellfire & brimstone garbage from church, but now that I'm older that's not what matters to me. Not to mention the fact that several of my recently wedded Protestant friends were all virgins as well.

Oh, and on ^that note, as for the Orthodox being married early, that's not really an Orthodox phenomenon. It's just a "Christian" one in general. Especially if they're in college.

So.

I don't really think this has much to do with religion but rather with the biology/character of the individual. And we're all human. Unless of course, you think that being in the OC makes you less human.  So can we please stop it with the Protestant bashing now.   

[orthonorm]

x

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Who's to say it's "harder for Protestants"??

I and several of my friends are (male + female) Protestants and we've still got our V-cards. I have
Protest. friends who have "fooled around" and "lost it" but there's a still a fairly large group of us
who haven't done those things.

The issue isn't whether or not Orthodox marriages are lasting longer than Protestant marriages. It's
about who's having sex. Most statistics are not  done all that accurately, so forget the statistics.The
Orthodox are having the same failures as the heterodox, and quite frankly, since that's the case there's
something you're doing wrong as well.

As far whether/not the sacraments help goes, I'm 23 (my friends are also in their 20s), and according to
augustin


Many of your teens seem to take a very nonchalant view of confession and absolution. I had no such buffer. I only knew that I needed to what was right for me regardless of what other people said or did. Oh, sure, for a while it was the hellfire & brimstone garbage from church, but now that I'm older that's not what matters to me. Not to mention the fact that several of my recently wedded Protestant friends were all virgins as well.

Oh, and on ^that note, as for the Orthodox being married early, that's not really an Orthodox phenomenon. It's just a "Christian" one in general. Especially if they're in college.

I don't really think this has much to do with religion but rather with the biology/character of the individual. And we're all human. Unless of course, you think that being in the OC makes you less human.  So can we please stop it with the Protestant bashing now.   

Again, you misunderstand my point.  I didn't say it is "harder for Protestants" I said that by denying the Grace inherent in the Sacraments, Protestants are inevitably making things "harder on themselves".

We in Orthodox again do not believe we maintain morality from our own human sense of goodness or of a result of our own stern sense of will-power.  This mentality will only lead to further and further sin.  Rather in Orthodox, the very ethos of Confession is that we ACCEPT our faults, but COMMEND THEM TO GOD's GRACE.  We simply CAN'T succeed on our own efforts.  This is the "works vs faith" debate, and how it is resolved in Orthodox is that we achieve works because of Grace which is received by Faith.  We have faith in the Sacraments, and we see in our own lives the effective benefit of Sacramental Grace.  

If folks are scoffing Confession or view it as a "get out of jail free card" they are misunderstanding the Sacrament in the same way Luther misunderstood.  Confession is not an exoneration or vindication, it is a reconciliation and healing.  God's Grace intervenes in our fractured lives of Sin, and makes the amends that our own will power can not.  God's Grace is effective where we continually will fail.  The purpose of the Orthodox Church is that in ALL MATTERS of HUMAN LIFE and EXPERIENCE, we must turn directly and fervently to God for His Grace.  Further, we believe in Faith that His Grace is most-present within the Seven Divine Mysteries of the Church, hence Sacramentality.  Protestants reject the Sacraments.  In Orthodox marriage is Sacramental, God sends His Grace to perfect the weakness of our human conditions, where as to my understanding aside from the Lutherans, Protestants universally reject the Sacraments, including the Sacramentality of Marriage.  

Why is this important in the context of pre-marital sex? Well it is simple, if you are asking people NOT to have sex, you have to have a pretty good  reason right? In Orthodox, our Marriages are Sacramental, they are filled with Grace, and we believe that this Grace is the only thing which can assist us weak-willed and often confused human beings into understanding how God wants us to use our natural sexuality in a literally Graceful manner.  So if we want kids NOT to have sex, we need to show them where it is appropriate for them to have sex, and in Orthodox that is in the context of Marriage, because God's Grace reforms our sexuality towards His Will.

It is especially  then having NOTHING TO DO with an individual's biological predisposition to Sex, that would be the epitome of the Protestant ethos which I am criticizing as fundamentally not-Orthodox.  If it were a matter of individual biology, that would imply that human beings can maintain virginity and marriage of their own free-will and volition, precisely the OPPOSITE of what Orthodox teaches.  Orthodox teaches that we need Sacramental Marriage in order to make sense of our confusing biological sexuality, because we can't achieve this on our own.  If we could, what would be the place of God?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Hiwot]

Who's to say it's "harder for Protestants"??

I and several of my friends are (male + female) Protestants and we've still got our V-cards. I have
Protest. friends who have "fooled around" and "lost it" but there's a still a fairly large group of us
who haven't done those things.

The issue isn't whether or not Orthodox marriages are lasting longer than Protestant marriages. It's
about who's having sex. Most statistics are not  done all that accurately, so forget the statistics.The
Orthodox are having the same failures as the heterodox, and quite frankly, since that's the case there's
something you're doing wrong as well.

As far whether/not the sacraments help goes, I'm 23 (my friends are also in their 20s), and according to
augustin

All of my Orthodox peers back home didn't seem to wait for anything.
And the confession think was easy enough. I remember that we were only 14 or so, and went to confession during Lent and the priest was already euphemistically  asking the girls whether they "jumped the fence". And later on, it went the same, a quick question, a n admission followed by absolution, and communion.

Many of your teens seem to take a very nonchalant view of confession and absolution. I had no such buffer. I only knew that I needed to what was right for me regardless of what other people said or did. Oh, sure, for a while it was the hellfire & brimstone garbage from church, but now that I'm older that's not what matters to me. Not to mention the fact that several of my recently wedded Protestant friends were all virgins as well.

Oh, and on ^that note, as for the Orthodox being married early, that's not really an Orthodox phenomenon. It's just a "Christian" one in general. Especially if they're in college.

So.

I don't really think this has much to do with religion but rather with the biology/character of the individual. And we're all human. Unless of course, you think that being in the OC makes you less human.  So can we please stop it with the Protestant bashing now.   

Chastity is "hard" for all humans of age, be it young teenagers, to adults and yes even to the married couple, as well as to those who are monastics. for the fallen humanity, it is a continual struggle to remain in the " yes" between ourselves and the will of God.

I do not think that protestants do not understand the place of grace in marriage, although they differ in their sacramental understanding from the orthodox, Who sustains marriage and makes it holy is fully understood by them. I like to present Dietrich Bonhoeffer's wedding sermon as one example of that. http://lutheranweddings.blogspot.com/2007/10/wedding-sermon-by-dietrich-bonhoeffer.html

I think few will disagree that, taking the life of faith and practicing it seriously is a challenge for all under all circumstances. especially with the sex obsessed culture we live in, our senses are constantly being bombarded by the message that invites us to join the crowd, that it is " normal" to follow the crowd, while not joining the crowd is perceived and advertised via the media etc.. as  being a sign of questionable mental health and developmental capability. so the message of Christianity in regards to Chastity(before marriage and after, as well as in the monastic life) is a contradiction to the message of the world, the ' if it feels good then do it' measure of morality.
Marriage is one help in the struggle for chastity, so it is good to see that many are indeed marrying as soon as they can to help them live the Christian life of chastity. ofc Marriage is a lot more than just seeking chastity, because chastity itself is not an end by itself, as the wedding is not an end by itself, its a journey that is part of working out our salvation in fear and trembling, to live a life that  imitates the Apostle Paul, when he says " for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

I will refrain from addressing the difference between the Orthodox vs Others on the Sacraments ,as this is not the issue about the sacraments which BTW are not magic, they require a continual yes , that allows God to continue to heal and transfigure our lives, . Orthodox marriage do not fail because the sacrament fails them, God forbid, but it is usually because man has stopped saying yes to the grace that is offered within the mystery of marriage. when that yes to God stops, the yes to self-will takes over, and the human without God holds only corruption, and corruption will start to take over that life.

dear brandb, I commend you and your friends for your zeal and commitment to God, for choosing something True instead of a poor imitation of it. it is truly my pleasure to hear of faithful and committed young men and women like you described.God bless you!

In Christ,
Hiwot

[brandb]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Who's to say it's "harder for Protestants"??

I and several of my friends are (male + female) Protestants and we've still got our V-cards. I have
Protest. friends who have "fooled around" and "lost it" but there's a still a fairly large group of us
who haven't done those things.

The issue isn't whether or not Orthodox marriages are lasting longer than Protestant marriages. It's
about who's having sex. Most statistics are not  done all that accurately, so forget the statistics.The
Orthodox are having the same failures as the heterodox, and quite frankly, since that's the case there's
something you're doing wrong as well.

As far whether/not the sacraments help goes, I'm 23 (my friends are also in their 20s), and according to
augustin


Many of your teens seem to take a very nonchalant view of confession and absolution. I had no such buffer. I only knew that I needed to what was right for me regardless of what other people said or did. Oh, sure, for a while it was the hellfire & brimstone garbage from church, but now that I'm older that's not what matters to me. Not to mention the fact that several of my recently wedded Protestant friends were all virgins as well.

Oh, and on ^that note, as for the Orthodox being married early, that's not really an Orthodox phenomenon. It's just a "Christian" one in general. Especially if they're in college.

I don't really think this has much to do with religion but rather with the biology/character of the individual. And we're all human. Unless of course, you think that being in the OC makes you less human.  So can we please stop it with the Protestant bashing now.  

Again, you misunderstand my point.  I didn't say it is "harder for Protestants" I said that by denying the Grace inherent in the Sacraments, Protestants are inevitably making things "harder on themselves".

We in Orthodox again do not believe we maintain morality from our own human sense of goodness or of a result of our own stern sense of will-power.  This mentality will only lead to further and further sin.  Rather in Orthodox, the very ethos of Confession is that we ACCEPT our faults, but COMMEND THEM TO GOD's GRACE.  We simply CAN'T succeed on our own efforts.  This is the "works vs faith" debate, and how it is resolved in Orthodox is that we achieve works because of Grace which is received by Faith.  We have faith in the Sacraments, and we see in our own lives the effective benefit of Sacramental Grace.  

If folks are scoffing Confession or view it as a "get out of jail free card" they are misunderstanding the Sacrament in the same way Luther misunderstood.  Confession is not an exoneration or vindication, it is a reconciliation and healing.  God's Grace intervenes in our fractured lives of Sin, and makes the amends that our own will power can not.  God's Grace is effective where we continually will fail.  The purpose of the Orthodox Church is that in ALL MATTERS of HUMAN LIFE and EXPERIENCE, we must turn directly and fervently to God for His Grace.  Further, we believe in Faith that His Grace is most-present within the Seven Divine Mysteries of the Church, hence Sacramentality.  Protestants reject the Sacraments.  In Orthodox marriage is Sacramental, God sends His Grace to perfect the weakness of our human conditions, where as to my understanding aside from the Lutherans, Protestants universally reject the Sacraments, including the Sacramentality of Marriage.  

Why is this important in the context of pre-marital sex? Well it is simple, if you are asking people NOT to have sex, you have to have a pretty good  reason right? In Orthodox, our Marriages are Sacramental, they are filled with Grace, and we believe that this Grace is the only thing which can assist us weak-willed and often confused human beings into understanding how God wants us to use our natural sexuality in a literally Graceful manner.  So if we want kids NOT to have sex, we need to show them where it is appropriate for them to have sex, and in Orthodox that is in the context of Marriage, because God's Grace reforms our sexuality towards His Will.

It is especially  then having NOTHING TO DO with an individual's biological predisposition to Sex, that would be the epitome of the Protestant ethos which I am criticizing as fundamentally not-Orthodox.  If it were a matter of individual biology, that would imply that human beings can maintain virginity and marriage of their own free-will and volition, precisely the OPPOSITE of what Orthodox teaches.  Orthodox teaches that we need Sacramental Marriage in order to make sense of our confusing biological sexuality, because we can't achieve this on our own.  If we could, what would be the place of God?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

A) This was not directed toward you.
B)? Ok then.
C) Not ALL protestants reject ALL the sacraments. That is inaccurate.
D) Protestants aren't any harder on themselves than any other Christian
who's living a life (or a least part of their life) in abstinence. Hard things
are hard. My point is that it's hard for everyone, no group is better at it
than anyone else because we're all human. As far as God's help goes, He
helps whom He wants to. That is all.

EDIT
Granted, I understand that technically Protestant sacraments aren't considered "valid". But doesn't
mean that they all reject them.

[brandb]

Chastity is "hard" for all humans of age, be it young teenagers, to adults and yes even to the married couple, as well as to those who are monastics. for the fallen humanity, it is a continual struggle to remain in the " yes" between ourselves and the will of God.

I do not think that protestants do not understand the place of grace in marriage, although they differ in their sacramental understanding from the orthodox, Who sustains marriage and makes it holy is fully understood by them. I like to present Dietrich Bonhoeffer's wedding sermon as one example of that. http://lutheranweddings.blogspot.com/2007/10/wedding-sermon-by-dietrich-bonhoeffer.html

I think few will disagree that, taking the life of faith and practicing it seriously is a challenge for all under all circumstances. especially with the sex obsessed culture we live in, our senses are constantly being bombarded by the message that invites us to join the crowd, that it is " normal" to follow the crowd, while not joining the crowd is perceived and advertised via the media etc.. as  being a sign of questionable mental health and developmental capability. so the message of Christianity in regards to Chastity(before marriage and after, as well as in the monastic life) is a contradiction to the message of the world, the ' if it feels good then do it' measure of morality.
Marriage is one help in the struggle for chastity, so it is good to see that many are indeed marrying as soon as they can to help them live the Christian life of chastity. ofc Marriage is a lot more than just seeking chastity, because chastity itself is not an end by itself, as the wedding is not an end by itself, its a journey that is part of working out our salvation in fear and trembling, to live a life that  imitates the Apostle Paul, when he says " for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

I will refrain from addressing the difference between the Orthodox vs Others on the Sacraments ,as this is not the issue about the sacraments which BTW are not magic, they require a continual yes , that allows God to continue to heal and transfigure our lives, . Orthodox marriage do not fail because the sacrament fails them, God forbid, but it is usually because man has stopped saying yes to the grace that is offered within the mystery of marriage. when that yes to God stops, the yes to self-will takes over, and the human without God holds only corruption, and corruption will start to take over that life.

dear brandb, I commend you and your friends for your zeal and commitment to God, for choosing something True instead of a poor imitation of it. it is truly my pleasure to hear of faithful and committed young men and women like you described.God bless you!

In Christ,
Hiwot

^This answer.
For some reason I wasn't understand why the issue of marriage had suddenly
popped up in the thread (other than the obvious) but this helps it make sense.

Thanks for your encouragement, btw.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A) This was not directed toward you.
B)? Ok then.
C) Not ALL protestants reject ALL the sacraments. That is inaccurate.
D) Protestants aren't any harder on themselves than any other Christian
who's living a life (or a least part of their life) in abstinence. Hard things
are hard. My point is that it's hard for everyone, no group is better at it
than anyone else because we're all human. As far as God's help goes, He
helps whom He wants to. That is all.

EDIT
Granted, I understand that technically Protestant sacraments aren't considered "valid". But doesn't
mean that they all reject them.

My mistake, but since you chose to put "harder on Protestants" in quotes I though you were referring to me, because I am the poster who introduced that phraseology to the discussion, and I again said Protestants were being harder on themselves than need be, because again, in denying Sacramentality, folks are rejecting the Grace of God which assists us to fulfill His will.  In Orthodox, we do not follow God's will entirely by our own volition, rather we cooperate with God's Grace inherent in the Mysteries.

Yes, not all Protestants reject Sacramentality, and I explicitly mentioned this in regards to the Lutherans, however in the context of both the OP article and the majority of American Christianity which it referenced, Sacramentality is not the norm, neither is Lutheranism.  Further, I didn't mean to imply that ALL Protestants reject Sacraments, however my point of "making it harder on themselves" still stands universally for all those Christians who do openly reject the Sacraments.

As to your point D, I agree, life is mutually and universally hard for ALL of humanity, however this is PRECISELY why we all the more NEED THE SACRAMENTS in our lives and in our marriages.  We in Orthodox do not feel that as natural humans, we are better or worse than any other human, we are equally sinful humans, however this is all the more what compels and drives us towards the Sacraments and Divine Mysteries of the Orthodox Church, because we acknowledge that aside from the Grace inherent in the Mysteries, we can never succeed on our own efforts. 

It is simple, we do not believe Grace is limited exclusively to the Sacraments, but if Grace is found in them, we can't understand why any folks would deny such an opportunity for God's blessings in their lives, which admittedly are hard for all of us to live :/

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[PeterTheAleut]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

A) This was not directed toward you.
B)? Ok then.
C) Not ALL protestants reject ALL the sacraments. That is inaccurate.
D) Protestants aren't any harder on themselves than any other Christian
who's living a life (or a least part of their life) in abstinence. Hard things
are hard. My point is that it's hard for everyone, no group is better at it
than anyone else because we're all human. As far as God's help goes, He
helps whom He wants to. That is all.

EDIT
Granted, I understand that technically Protestant sacraments aren't considered "valid". But doesn't
mean that they all reject them.

My mistake, but since you chose to put "harder on Protestants" in quotes I though you were referring to me, because I am the poster who introduced that phraseology to the discussion, and I again said Protestants were being harder on themselves than need be, because again, in denying Sacramentality, folks are rejecting the Grace of God which assists us to fulfill His will.  In Orthodox, we do not follow God's will entirely by our own volition, rather we cooperate with God's Grace inherent in the Mysteries.

Yes, not all Protestants reject Sacramentality, and I explicitly mentioned this in regards to the Lutherans, however in the context of both the OP article and the majority of American Christianity which it referenced, Sacramentality is not the norm, neither is Lutheranism.  Further, I didn't mean to imply that ALL Protestants reject Sacraments, however my point of "making it harder on themselves" still stands universally for all those Christians who do openly reject the Sacraments.

As to your point D, I agree, life is mutually and universally hard for ALL of humanity, however this is PRECISELY why we all the more NEED THE SACRAMENTS in our lives and in our marriages.  We in Orthodox do not feel that as natural humans, we are better or worse than any other human, we are equally sinful humans, however this is all the more what compels and drives us towards the Sacraments and Divine Mysteries of the Orthodox Church, because we acknowledge that aside from the Grace inherent in the Mysteries, we can never succeed on our own efforts. 

It is simple, we do not believe Grace is limited exclusively to the Sacraments, but if Grace is found in them, we can't understand why any folks would deny such an opportunity for God's blessings in their lives, which admittedly are hard for all of us to live :/

stay blessed,
habte selassie

As a former Protestant, I object to your claim that Protestants reject the grace of God because they reject the Sacraments. I can tell you very plainly that the Protestants I've known sought very much the grace of God to guide them and strengthen them in their daily walks with Christ. By rejecting the Sacraments, yes they do reject the fullness of God's grace, but it's incorrect to say they reject the grace of God entirely and try to follow the will of God purely on the strength of their own effort.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

As a former Protestant, I object to your claim that Protestants reject the grace of God because they reject the Sacraments. I can tell you very plainly that the Protestants I've known sought very much the grace of God to guide them and strengthen them in their daily walks with Christ. By rejecting the Sacraments, yes they do reject the fullness of God's grace, but it's incorrect to say they reject the grace of God entirely and try to follow the will of God purely on the strength of their own effort.

First, notice you used the word "former" and so this implies that something was wrong, something was missing, something was lacking before you came to Orthodox.  This is as Paul explained regarding the Jewish relationship of the Old Covenant, saying, "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." Hebrews 8

Second, excuse me but you misunderstand.  I explicitly stated that God's Grace was not limited exclusively to the Sacraments, but clearly the Orthodox perspective is that the fullness of Grace can only be found in the Sacraments.  If folks deny the Sacramentality of Baptism, of Confession, of Holy Communion and instead negate these Mysteries to the realm of literary symbolism, how is that NOT denying the Grace of God in some regard? True, God's Grace transcends even the Mysteries, and it is God's Grace which brings us to the Church, however, what I was stating is that for those Protestants and Evangelicals who rejects the Sacraments are indeed fully rejecting the New Covenant, and forcing God to send an extended Grace beyond even the Mysteries.  That sure is asking a lot from God isn't it considering He came Incarnate precisely to establish His Church and send His Grace in His Church?

What I am arguing in regards to Marriage is that only Orthodox Marriage is a Sacrament, and only Orthodox marriage is therefore Blessed in the Church by the fullness of God's Grace.  It would be misleading and blatantly false to allow Evangelicals and Protestants to believe their symbolic and legal contract marriages are anything similar to the miracles inherent in the Divine Mysteries.  The Grace folks experience outside of the Church is intended by God to bring them to the Church.  Why would God then bless Marriages outside the Church with the fullness of His Sacramental Grace? In this regard, yes, symbolic Protestant marriages are a human creation of human will, and while are blessed with the same kinds of normative Grace which God grants on the sinners and saints alike just as His sun rises each dawn on the entire world, nonetheless we know He only specifically blesses Marriage in the context of the Sacraments.  To suggest anything else is to demean, disregard, and deny  the absolute seriousness of the Sacraments.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[augustin717]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

[orthonorm]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

If you are an American, sometimes you even you get piggy back rides. So much for your Old World nominalism now . . .

[FountainPen]

I needed a laugh today, thanks!

[PeterTheAleut]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

As a former Protestant, I object to your claim that Protestants reject the grace of God because they reject the Sacraments. I can tell you very plainly that the Protestants I've known sought very much the grace of God to guide them and strengthen them in their daily walks with Christ. By rejecting the Sacraments, yes they do reject the fullness of God's grace, but it's incorrect to say they reject the grace of God entirely and try to follow the will of God purely on the strength of their own effort.

...

Second, excuse me but you misunderstand.  I explicitly stated that God's Grace was not limited exclusively to the Sacraments, but clearly the Orthodox perspective is that the fullness of Grace can only be found in the Sacraments.

No, I think I understand you quite clearly, and that it's you who misunderstand me. I didn't say anything about whether the grace of God is confined to the Sacraments. I spoke only to your claim that Protestants reject the grace of God and try to follow Christ purely on their own strength by rejecting the Sacraments, which one can read quite clearly for himself in Reply #11.

If folks deny the Sacramentality of Baptism, of Confession, of Holy Communion and instead negate these Mysteries to the realm of literary symbolism, how is that NOT denying the Grace of God in some regard?

In some regard, yes. But I wouldn't call it a complete rejection of the grace of God in favor of doing things purely by one's own strength, as you so stated.

True, God's Grace transcends even the Mysteries, and it is God's Grace which brings us to the Church, however, what I was stating is that for those Protestants and Evangelicals who rejects the Sacraments are indeed fully rejecting the New Covenant, and forcing God to send an extended Grace beyond even the Mysteries.  That sure is asking a lot from God isn't it considering He came Incarnate precisely to establish His Church and send His Grace in His Church?

Even here I object to your claim that Protestant rejection of the Sacraments is a full rejection of the grace of God, the New Covenant as you call it.

What I am arguing in regards to Marriage is that only Orthodox Marriage is a Sacrament, and only Orthodox marriage is therefore Blessed in the Church by the fullness of God's Grace.  It would be misleading and blatantly false to allow Evangelicals and Protestants to believe their symbolic and legal contract marriages are anything similar to the miracles inherent in the Divine Mysteries.  The Grace folks experience outside of the Church is intended by God to bring them to the Church.  Why would God then bless Marriages outside the Church with the fullness of His Sacramental Grace? In this regard, yes, symbolic Protestant marriages are a human creation of human will, and while are blessed with the same kinds of normative Grace which God grants on the sinners and saints alike just as His sun rises each dawn on the entire world, nonetheless we know He only specifically blesses Marriage in the context of the Sacraments.  To suggest anything else is to demean, disregard, and deny  the absolute seriousness of the Sacraments.

But this is a lot different than saying that Protestants consciously reject the grace of God and try to keep their marriages together purely on their own strength. I don't disagree that they're unconsciously depriving themselves of the fullness of the grace of God by remaining outside the sacramental Mysteries of the Church, but to say that they try to live according to some "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" type of Christianity that relies not at all on the grace of God is generally false. Most of the Protestants I knew worked very hard to receive the grace of God as they knew it; they just weren't aware that they could receive this grace in much more abundant measure by joining themselves to the Orthodox Church, the fountainhead of all grace.

[Justin Kissel]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

You're part of a religion that talks about a God-man carrying burdens for you, and being a door that is knocked on, and so forth. These kinds of phrases are just part of the package.

[orthonorm]

I needed a laugh today, thanks!

If you only knew how many bathrooms I've seen that in over the years in middle class, midwest suburbia.

[augustin717]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

You're part of a religion that talks about a God-man carrying burdens for you, and being a door that is knocked on, and so forth. These kinds of phrases are just part of the package.

All evangelicals I know drive SUV's. So, maybe it would be more appropriate to say "in  their daily rides with Christ", as I've never seen them walk.

[Justin Kissel]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

You're part of a religion that talks about a God-man carrying burdens for you, and being a door that is knocked on, and so forth. These kinds of phrases are just part of the package.

All evangelicals I know drive SUV's. So, maybe it would be more appropriate to say "in  their daily rides with Christ", as I've never seen them walk.

Touche'

[Alveus Lacuna]

All evangelicals I know drive SUV's. So, maybe it would be more appropriate to say "in  their daily rides with Christ", as I've never seen them walk.

Gotta walk from the car to the cubicle. Also gotta go jogging after work to keep that tight Evangelical body.

[FountainPen]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

You're part of a religion that talks about a God-man carrying burdens for you, and being a door that is knocked on, and so forth. These kinds of phrases are just part of the package.

Let's not get into quibbling about poetic license because i think (from what i've read so far) Orthodoxy would win hands down.

[Aindriú]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

You're part of a religion that talks about a God-man carrying burdens for you, and being a door that is knocked on, and so forth. These kinds of phrases are just part of the package.

All evangelicals I know drive SUV's. So, maybe it would be more appropriate to say "in  their daily rides with Christ", as I've never seen them walk.

What's significant of the SUV? Is it more mobile than any other car? Do non-protestants walk, as the only choice is foot or SUV? Is protestant just the religion of the evil non-commie?

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

No, I think I understand you quite clearly, and that it's you who misunderstand me. I didn't say anything about whether the grace of God is confined to the Sacraments. I spoke only to your claim that Protestants reject the grace of God and try to follow Christ purely on their own strength by rejecting the Sacraments, which one can read quite clearly for himself in

In some regard, yes. But I wouldn't call it a complete rejection of the grace of God in favor of doing things purely by one's own strength, as you so stated.


Even here I object to your claim that Protestant rejection of the Sacraments is a full rejection of the grace of God, the New Covenant as you call it.

What I am arguing in regards to Marriage is that only Orthodox Marriage is a Sacrament, and only Orthodox marriage is therefore Blessed in the Church by the fullness of God's Grace.  It would be misleading and blatantly false to allow Evangelicals and Protestants to believe their symbolic and legal contract marriages are anything similar to the miracles inherent in the Divine Mysteries.  The Grace folks experience outside of the Church is intended by God to bring them to the Church.  Why would God then bless Marriages outside the Church with the fullness of His Sacramental Grace? In this regard, yes, symbolic Protestant marriages are a human creation of human will, and while are blessed with the same kinds of normative Grace which God grants on the sinners and saints alike just as His sun rises each dawn on the entire world, nonetheless we know He only specifically blesses Marriage in the context of the Sacraments.  To suggest anything else is to demean, disregard, and deny  the absolute seriousness of the Sacraments.

But this is a lot different than saying that Protestants consciously reject the grace of God and try to keep their marriages together purely on their own strength. I don't disagree that they're unconsciously depriving themselves of the fullness of the grace of God by remaining outside the sacramental Mysteries of the Church, but to say that they try to live according to some "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" type of Christianity that relies not at all on the grace of God is generally false. Most of the Protestants I knew worked very hard to receive the grace of God as they knew it; they just weren't aware that they could receive this grace in much more abundant measure by joining themselves to the Orthodox Church, the fountainhead of all grace.

You've nailed the difference in our discussion, I am referring specifically to the capital "G" Grace of the Sacraments, and you are referring to the lower-case grace which include ALL of God's actions.  Grace is but another term to explain the activities, energies, and actions of God in the verb sense.  Grace then is how God created and sustains all of His Creation at every nano-second of time and beyond!  However, within the New Covenant of the Orthodox Church, capital "G" Grace has been established uniquely through the Divine Mysteries and no where else. We can't obtain the Grace from Baptism aside from Baptism.  We can't obtain the Grace from Holy Communion aside from Holy Communion.  And yes, we can't obtain the Grace of Marriage outside of Holy Matrimony in the Church.  This again is capital "G" Grace, referring specifically to the Grace God grants us through the Mysteries.  So if we, be it Orthodox (yes we count to, many Orthodox equally neglect the Sacraments and therefore are leaving themselves to have to fend for themselves) or Protestant, deny or reject or fail to participate with the Mysteries, we precisely going at a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" Christianity because God's Grace in the capital "G" sense is exclusive to the Mysteries.  So a marriage outside of the Sacraments is by very definition a human creation, whereas a Sacramental Marriage is the process of synergy, combining Human will with God's Grace.   God established Sacramental Marriage, human beings may accept or reject it, and if they reject it stemming from any persuasion, philosophy, gripe, or religion, then such humans are rejecting true Marriage and instead creating their own flawed human pseudo-marriage.

My point is this:  Protestants who reject the Sacraments reject the New Covenant.  If anything, I would say they live EVEN MORE SO then in the grace of God (lower-case sense) in that God must send EXTRAORDINARY blessings their way to account for the lack of Sacraments.  We in the Church are given the Sacraments in order to save us and heal us.  We simply can't expect God to send us the capital "G" Grace outside of the Sacraments, and it is even spiritually dangerous to suggest or imply such.  So yes, Protestants who reject the Sacramental marriage of the Church, are attempting to go at it alone.  If Orthodox Christians chose to have unmarried, sexual relationships they are equally going at it alone, however these are blessed by Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion to assist in our human weaknesses, but I sincerely fear for the broken hearts and spiritual wounds of those non-Sacramental Christians who openly defy and reject God's Grace inherent in the Mysteries, and what then do they have to help them? Again, they are surely asking a lot of God, considering God already sent His Church precisely to be the vehicle of His capital "G" Grace, and it exists no where else, for to suggest such is to again disregard, deny, and disrespect the Eternal Seriousness of the Sacraments.

I am not saying we in Orthodox are any better or worse than any other people, but our Church surely is by the Grace of God

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[PeterTheAleut]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

No, I think I understand you quite clearly, and that it's you who misunderstand me. I didn't say anything about whether the grace of God is confined to the Sacraments. I spoke only to your claim that Protestants reject the grace of God and try to follow Christ purely on their own strength by rejecting the Sacraments, which one can read quite clearly for himself in

In some regard, yes. But I wouldn't call it a complete rejection of the grace of God in favor of doing things purely by one's own strength, as you so stated.


Even here I object to your claim that Protestant rejection of the Sacraments is a full rejection of the grace of God, the New Covenant as you call it.

What I am arguing in regards to Marriage is that only Orthodox Marriage is a Sacrament, and only Orthodox marriage is therefore Blessed in the Church by the fullness of God's Grace.  It would be misleading and blatantly false to allow Evangelicals and Protestants to believe their symbolic and legal contract marriages are anything similar to the miracles inherent in the Divine Mysteries.  The Grace folks experience outside of the Church is intended by God to bring them to the Church.  Why would God then bless Marriages outside the Church with the fullness of His Sacramental Grace? In this regard, yes, symbolic Protestant marriages are a human creation of human will, and while are blessed with the same kinds of normative Grace which God grants on the sinners and saints alike just as His sun rises each dawn on the entire world, nonetheless we know He only specifically blesses Marriage in the context of the Sacraments.  To suggest anything else is to demean, disregard, and deny  the absolute seriousness of the Sacraments.

But this is a lot different than saying that Protestants consciously reject the grace of God and try to keep their marriages together purely on their own strength. I don't disagree that they're unconsciously depriving themselves of the fullness of the grace of God by remaining outside the sacramental Mysteries of the Church, but to say that they try to live according to some "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" type of Christianity that relies not at all on the grace of God is generally false. Most of the Protestants I knew worked very hard to receive the grace of God as they knew it; they just weren't aware that they could receive this grace in much more abundant measure by joining themselves to the Orthodox Church, the fountainhead of all grace.

You've nailed the difference in our discussion, I am referring specifically to the capital "G" Grace of the Sacraments, and you are referring to the lower-case grace which include ALL of God's actions.  Grace is but another term to explain the activities, energies, and actions of God in the verb sense.  Grace then is how God created and sustains all of His Creation at every nano-second of time and beyond!  However, within the New Covenant of the Orthodox Church, capital "G" Grace has been established uniquely through the Divine Mysteries and no where else. We can't obtain the Grace from Baptism aside from Baptism.  We can't obtain the Grace from Holy Communion aside from Holy Communion.  And yes, we can't obtain the Grace of Marriage outside of Holy Matrimony in the Church.  This again is capital "G" Grace, referring specifically to the Grace God grants us through the Mysteries.  So if we, be it Orthodox (yes we count to, many Orthodox equally neglect the Sacraments and therefore are leaving themselves to have to fend for themselves) or Protestant, deny or reject or fail to participate with the Mysteries, we precisely going at a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" Christianity because God's Grace in the capital "G" sense is exclusive to the Mysteries.  So a marriage outside of the Sacraments is by very definition a human creation, whereas a Sacramental Marriage is the process of synergy, combining Human will with God's Grace.   God established Sacramental Marriage, human beings may accept or reject it, and if they reject it stemming from any persuasion, philosophy, gripe, or religion, then such humans are rejecting true Marriage and instead creating their own flawed human pseudo-marriage.

My point is this:  Protestants who reject the Sacraments reject the New Covenant.  If anything, I would say they live EVEN MORE SO then in the grace of God (lower-case sense) in that God must send EXTRAORDINARY blessings their way to account for the lack of Sacraments.  We in the Church are given the Sacraments in order to save us and heal us.  We simply can't expect God to send us the capital "G" Grace outside of the Sacraments, and it is even spiritually dangerous to suggest or imply such.  So yes, Protestants who reject the Sacramental marriage of the Church, are attempting to go at it alone.  If Orthodox Christians chose to have unmarried, sexual relationships they are equally going at it alone, however these are blessed by Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion to assist in our human weaknesses, but I sincerely fear for the broken hearts and spiritual wounds of those non-Sacramental Christians who openly defy and reject God's Grace inherent in the Mysteries, and what then do they have to help them? Again, they are surely asking a lot of God, considering God already sent His Church precisely to be the vehicle of His capital "G" Grace, and it exists no where else, for to suggest such is to again disregard, deny, and disrespect the Eternal Seriousness of the Sacraments.

I am not saying we in Orthodox are any better or worse than any other people, but our Church surely is by the Grace of God

stay blessed,
habte selassie

What if you were to find out that the rite of marriage was not always a sacrament of the Church, unlike baptism, chrismation, and the Eucharist?

[augustin717]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

You're part of a religion that talks about a God-man carrying burdens for you, and being a door that is knocked on, and so forth. These kinds of phrases are just part of the package.

All evangelicals I know drive SUV's. So, maybe it would be more appropriate to say "in  their daily rides with Christ", as I've never seen them walk.

What's significant of the SUV? Is it more mobile than any other car? Do non-protestants walk, as the only choice is foot or SUV? Is protestant just the religion of the evil non-commie?

all american evangelicals i met were pretty middle class. that's what i wanted to say. but i do not know many, 'cause we do not frequent the same locales. i meet plenty of catholics though.

[ialmisry]

Now, how on earth would someone have "daily walks with Christ" ?!?

You're part of a religion that talks about a God-man carrying burdens for you, and being a door that is knocked on, and so forth. These kinds of phrases are just part of the package.

All evangelicals I know drive SUV's. So, maybe it would be more appropriate to say "in  their daily rides with Christ", as I've never seen them walk.

What's significant of the SUV? Is it more mobile than any other car? Do non-protestants walk, as the only choice is foot or SUV? Is protestant just the religion of the evil non-commie?

all american evangelicals i met were pretty middle class. that's what i wanted to say. but i do not know many, 'cause we do not frequent the same locales. i meet plenty of catholics though.

Obviously, you haven't been to the South.  Heck, go to Applachia and you will find all the poor lower class Protestant evangelicals your heart could want.

[serb1389]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

No, I think I understand you quite clearly, and that it's you who misunderstand me. I didn't say anything about whether the grace of God is confined to the Sacraments. I spoke only to your claim that Protestants reject the grace of God and try to follow Christ purely on their own strength by rejecting the Sacraments, which one can read quite clearly for himself in

In some regard, yes. But I wouldn't call it a complete rejection of the grace of God in favor of doing things purely by one's own strength, as you so stated.


Even here I object to your claim that Protestant rejection of the Sacraments is a full rejection of the grace of God, the New Covenant as you call it.

What I am arguing in regards to Marriage is that only Orthodox Marriage is a Sacrament, and only Orthodox marriage is therefore Blessed in the Church by the fullness of God's Grace.  It would be misleading and blatantly false to allow Evangelicals and Protestants to believe their symbolic and legal contract marriages are anything similar to the miracles inherent in the Divine Mysteries.  The Grace folks experience outside of the Church is intended by God to bring them to the Church.  Why would God then bless Marriages outside the Church with the fullness of His Sacramental Grace? In this regard, yes, symbolic Protestant marriages are a human creation of human will, and while are blessed with the same kinds of normative Grace which God grants on the sinners and saints alike just as His sun rises each dawn on the entire world, nonetheless we know He only specifically blesses Marriage in the context of the Sacraments.  To suggest anything else is to demean, disregard, and deny  the absolute seriousness of the Sacraments.

But this is a lot different than saying that Protestants consciously reject the grace of God and try to keep their marriages together purely on their own strength. I don't disagree that they're unconsciously depriving themselves of the fullness of the grace of God by remaining outside the sacramental Mysteries of the Church, but to say that they try to live according to some "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" type of Christianity that relies not at all on the grace of God is generally false. Most of the Protestants I knew worked very hard to receive the grace of God as they knew it; they just weren't aware that they could receive this grace in much more abundant measure by joining themselves to the Orthodox Church, the fountainhead of all grace.

You've nailed the difference in our discussion, I am referring specifically to the capital "G" Grace of the Sacraments, and you are referring to the lower-case grace which include ALL of God's actions.  Grace is but another term to explain the activities, energies, and actions of God in the verb sense.  Grace then is how God created and sustains all of His Creation at every nano-second of time and beyond!  However, within the New Covenant of the Orthodox Church, capital "G" Grace has been established uniquely through the Divine Mysteries and no where else. We can't obtain the Grace from Baptism aside from Baptism.  We can't obtain the Grace from Holy Communion aside from Holy Communion.  And yes, we can't obtain the Grace of Marriage outside of Holy Matrimony in the Church.  This again is capital "G" Grace, referring specifically to the Grace God grants us through the Mysteries.  So if we, be it Orthodox (yes we count to, many Orthodox equally neglect the Sacraments and therefore are leaving themselves to have to fend for themselves) or Protestant, deny or reject or fail to participate with the Mysteries, we precisely going at a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" Christianity because God's Grace in the capital "G" sense is exclusive to the Mysteries.  So a marriage outside of the Sacraments is by very definition a human creation, whereas a Sacramental Marriage is the process of synergy, combining Human will with God's Grace.   God established Sacramental Marriage, human beings may accept or reject it, and if they reject it stemming from any persuasion, philosophy, gripe, or religion, then such humans are rejecting true Marriage and instead creating their own flawed human pseudo-marriage.

My point is this:  Protestants who reject the Sacraments reject the New Covenant.  If anything, I would say they live EVEN MORE SO then in the grace of God (lower-case sense) in that God must send EXTRAORDINARY blessings their way to account for the lack of Sacraments.  We in the Church are given the Sacraments in order to save us and heal us.  We simply can't expect God to send us the capital "G" Grace outside of the Sacraments, and it is even spiritually dangerous to suggest or imply such.  So yes, Protestants who reject the Sacramental marriage of the Church, are attempting to go at it alone.  If Orthodox Christians chose to have unmarried, sexual relationships they are equally going at it alone, however these are blessed by Baptism, Confession, and Holy Communion to assist in our human weaknesses, but I sincerely fear for the broken hearts and spiritual wounds of those non-Sacramental Christians who openly defy and reject God's Grace inherent in the Mysteries, and what then do they have to help them? Again, they are surely asking a lot of God, considering God already sent His Church precisely to be the vehicle of His capital "G" Grace, and it exists no where else, for to suggest such is to again disregard, deny, and disrespect the Eternal Seriousness of the Sacraments.

I am not saying we in Orthodox are any better or worse than any other people, but our Church surely is by the Grace of God

stay blessed,
habte selassie

if the HS is present everywhere & fills all things, then how can you definitively say where it is NOT?