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Author Topic: Eating Halal Food - From an oriental Orthodox perspective  (Read 3413 times) Average Rating: 0
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Andrew - The First Called
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« on: December 20, 2011, 09:02:50 PM »

I know this may not seem at first something for this board, but I wanted the opinion of the oriental Orthodox, particularly other Copts. What's the official line of the church on believers eating halal meat, particularly as it may simply be a necessity for believers in muslim countries. Please if anyone has their own opinion on this please do comment.

I only ask this question because, a) it could be an issue if we consider 1 Corinthians 8:1, forbidding food offer to idols and that when animals are slaughtered in the halal manner the name of 'Allah' is invoked and in this instance it refers to the muslim deity, not simply the arab word for God. b) i was recently put into the situation where i ate halal meat and this got me to thinking and so would just like a bit of clarity.
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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 09:38:07 PM »

Bon appetit!
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41210.0.html

As long as I am not paying extra for someone else's scruples, I couldn't care less (I don't like much lamb, so that's easier I guess).  Even my sign of the Cross can beat any Sayyid's prayer any day. 
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2011, 10:32:29 AM »

"To the Jew, I became as a Jew, and to the Gentile, I became as a Gentile."  Jews and Muslims don't offer their food to idols; they're just worried about ritual "cleanliness."  Eating halal food is fine, especially since it's almost no differently prepared than Kosher when considering meats.
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2011, 03:18:46 PM »

Sometimes I go into a restaurant, or I buy something to cook at home, and I don't even know who owns the place, or check where the pack was made. So I don't know if I've eaten Halal food or not. I don't think I'll become overly scrupulous over this. I just say a prayer over everything I eat, and I think that helps.
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2011, 01:06:26 AM »

I asked my priest about Halal meats when I was an inquirer. . . not so much because of how it is used in the Islamic faith, but because it is bloodless - and I wanted to know why we eat meat with blood in it.  It seems to be a decision change of economy in the church more than anything else. 

I lived with an Islamic family for six months when I was in England. . .all the meat was Halal.  I ate it and didn't think anything of it as I know who my God is, and my gastric juices weren't going to do a thing to change that. 

But I think it's always bothered me somewhat to eat meat that has not been bled.  Maybe I'm just weird. . .I don't know. 

I do know the wisdom of the Church is such a good thing - and often prevails on such a wonderful level of common sense.  I'm thankful for it. But I'd really like to know if bled meat is easily accessible. . .are we responsible to choose it over meat that has not been bled?
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2011, 01:37:56 AM »

Andrew, in that situation eat what is being offered to you, bless it in the Name of God and eat and give thanks to Him that has provided for you. the Christian prayer will bless whatever meat is being offered to you.
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2011, 11:12:15 AM »


Please don't take this "Halal" thing lightly. I don't advice anyone who is a Christian to eat islamic food: for spiritual; for health, and economical relataed reasons. Halal food is bad for your soul, it is unhealthy. Do make some research. And if you go to the next Arab or Turkish Kebap house you are helping their Jihad.

Ethiopians are stricktly instructed not to eat islamic food. Christian and Muslim slaughter houses are separated, Christian butchers put Christian Crosses infront of their shops.

So, if you want that your sisters or wives don't grow moustaches like Turkish women, please do stay away from Kebap locals.
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2011, 11:15:04 AM »

So, if you want that your sisters or wives don't grow moustaches like Turkish women, please do stay away from Kebap locals.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2011, 11:54:35 AM »


Please don't take this "Halal" thing lightly. I don't advice anyone who is a Christian to eat islamic food: for spiritual; for health, and economical relataed reasons. Halal food is bad for your soul, it is unhealthy. Do make some research. And if you go to the next Arab or Turkish Kebap house you are helping their Jihad.

Ethiopians are stricktly instructed not to eat islamic food. Christian and Muslim slaughter houses are separated, Christian butchers put Christian Crosses infront of their shops.

So, if you want that your sisters or wives don't grow moustaches like Turkish women, please do stay away from Kebap locals.

 Dear Balthazar

here are the things that make sense to me personally...

the spiritual reason of not sharing a meal with the Muslims+ sharing a meal usually forms a human bond, and  in the long run that bond also might lead to spiritual conformity, to avoid that , we are discouraged from eating with the Muslims, especially their meat as slaughtering of our animals has to be done by a practicing christian who keeps the fasts etc. and the Holy Trinity invoked. it makes sense that the Christians would not think of eating the Muslim's slaughtered in their own religious manner of doing the deed.

The economical reason is also a valid one to consider seriously, at least for me, I like to try and direct my help towards the cause that I believe in. and helping the christian butcher is serving the Church to me.  on some cases not buying my favorite candy from someone is an informed decision I make that factors in my political and economic , as well as spiritual view. It seems to me , that is also part of the reason in the separation of Islamic slaughter houses and the Christian ones in Ethiopia.

the health reason LOL it might be true that eating something that makes us uncomfortable will lead to  psychosomatic signs and symptoms, that have nothing to do with the healthiness of the food we are eating Wink

Find a  Christian Arab, or Turkish and support their honest business, that will be serving the Lord. one must be very careful to avoid such ethnic view of Islamic religion, I understood you Balthazar that you were referring to the Jihadists, however, I ask you to think carefully about directing that kind of generalisations about a certain group of ethnicity, Islam is not owned by one ethnicity it is a global ideology, with global politicall and religious Totalitarian ambitions. the part about the mustaches, are not acceptable by anybody's standard, that's unbecoming of you as a christian my brother. though your heart may be bleeding with pain, do not let your grief cloud your christian judgement, if you do, know that the enemy wins.

having said the above, to the OP, if he has no other alternative, he is under no spiritual obligation or rule that will defile him if he were to eat what is presented to him after blessing it in a christian manner. each situation ofc is different and because of that we have to think of our faithful brothers, and the non believers as well and discern which serves to harm none spiritually.

With Love in Christ,
Hiwot.
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2011, 04:33:41 PM »

ok, if u are not going to eat certain food, u need, in my opinion to have another way of sharing your faith with these people.
what u say is more important than what you eat.
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2011, 04:50:01 PM »

I refuse to eat halal meat if I know that is what it is. I no longer eat lamb because almost all lamb is contaminated in the uk by being slaughtered in the name of the muslim god.
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2011, 05:33:34 PM »

ok, if u are not going to eat certain food, u need, in my opinion to have another way of sharing your faith with these people.
what u say is more important than what you eat.

This is true and I agree with the part about finding another way to share your faith, but it can also be said that what you do is more important than what you say, and eating is definitely something you do. So if you have an alternative, you shouldn't eat Islamically-slaughtered food. Remember that while all things are permitted, not all are healthy. I think Halal food falls into the unhealthy category for the reasons Balthasar has mentioned.
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2011, 06:28:37 PM »

ok, if u are not going to eat certain food, u need, in my opinion to have another way of sharing your faith with these people.
what u say is more important than what you eat.

This is true and I agree with the part about finding another way to share your faith, but it can also be said that what you do is more important than what you say, and eating is definitely something you do. So if you have an alternative, you shouldn't eat Islamically-slaughtered food. Remember that while all things are permitted, not all are healthy. I think Halal food falls into the unhealthy category for the reasons Balthasar has mentioned.
you are giving Islam more credit than it deserves.
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 06:36:00 PM »

I respectfully disagree, Isa. I also agree with what you wrote on this topic, about how the power of the sign of the cross is much greater than the prayer of any Hajji (or something similar; I didn't reread the thread). This is very true, but it doesn't mean that eating Halal food is harmless. Supporting Islamic businesses is supporting Islam to at least some degree, and I definitely do not want even one cent of my money to go to supporting Islam. I'd like to think that instead of giving Islam more credit than it deserves, I am being realistic about the moral responsibility we all share to make responsible choices with the funds God has blessed us with.
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 06:42:11 PM »

what i mean is i'm looking for ideas to share faith with these people.
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2011, 06:53:40 PM »

Oh, I know. I just wrote that because I think it is important to keep in mind that both word and deed are important. I am confident you'd say the same, but for some reason when discussions about this topic come up, it sometimes seems like eating is separated from everything else we do.

And I would suggest introducing them to the fasting tradition of your church. I have met a few Muslims who were surprised to find that we fast for longer than they do. It invites them to look at Christianity as something other than the common forms they associate with Westerners.
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2011, 07:02:13 PM »

I ate every meal for six months with a Muslim family - every single meal. . .besides eating more chocolate than I EVER want to see in my whole life time again, this is what else happened. 

We read the New Testament. 

We compared the Koran with the Old and New Testament.  We asked good questions and and weighed the Koran against itself and found it confusing and contradicting according to the whim of history at best. 

I learned that most Muslims have not read the Koran in a form of comparative study it is only referred to in pieces when necessary.  What was the mainstay of their faith was word of mouth. . . stories. . . stories handed down and changed  and changed until they do not have much in common with the original. 

So the Old Testament was used to show the original. 

By the time I left - they were amazed at what they THOUGHT was in the Bible and what actually was in it.  They started reading the Bible. 

Was this worth eating with them daily for six months?  Was it worth putting aside my own choice of foods (I was sooooo salad hungry when I got back to the States.) and food preparation . . . to sit with a family who worshiped a different god?

I'll let you be the judge. . .

But if I had to do it again, I would.  Without reservation.  Food opens so many conversations and trust in so many different cultures.  If you can share a meal then words might be easier to swallow, as well. 


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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2011, 07:03:49 PM »

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« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2011, 11:14:54 PM »

I ate every meal for six months with a Muslim family - every single meal. . .besides eating more chocolate than I EVER want to see in my whole life time again, this is what else happened. 

We read the New Testament. 

We compared the Koran with the Old and New Testament.  We asked good questions and and weighed the Koran against itself and found it confusing and contradicting according to the whim of history at best. 

I learned that most Muslims have not read the Koran in a form of comparative study it is only referred to in pieces when necessary.  What was the mainstay of their faith was word of mouth. . . stories. . . stories handed down and changed  and changed until they do not have much in common with the original. 

So the Old Testament was used to show the original. 

By the time I left - they were amazed at what they THOUGHT was in the Bible and what actually was in it.  They started reading the Bible. 

Was this worth eating with them daily for six months?  Was it worth putting aside my own choice of foods (I was sooooo salad hungry when I got back to the States.) and food preparation . . . to sit with a family who worshiped a different god?

I'll let you be the judge. . .

But if I had to do it again, I would.  Without reservation.  Food opens so many conversations and trust in so many different cultures.  If you can share a meal then words might be easier to swallow, as well. 




That's inspiring  Smiley...truly, you seemed to keep with St. Paul's way of life that I quoted earlier...

Our bishops and patriarchs as a form of Egyptian solidarity eat with the Muslims every year on their Ramadan.  Inevitably, they're eating halal.
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« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2011, 11:54:30 PM »

I don't get the hysteria over the issue of eating halal.  I just don't.  If you pray over your food, what do you care?  It seems to me far more a typical expression of Western xenophobia of Islam and the Arabic community at large.

As for me, I will continue to enjoy eating at my local kebab joint, take in a little bit of the Al Jazeera playing on the TV above the food counter, and relish in the fact that where I live I can actually get terrific middle eastern food.  Once you live in a city with a tragic pita bread situation, you begin to appreciate the little things in life. 

Another pickled turnip over here.  A crushed lentil soup to go, too.
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2011, 06:58:47 PM »

I ate every meal for six months with a Muslim family - every single meal. . .besides eating more chocolate than I EVER want to see in my whole life time again, this is what else happened. 

We read the New Testament. 

We compared the Koran with the Old and New Testament.  We asked good questions and and weighed the Koran against itself and found it confusing and contradicting according to the whim of history at best. 

I learned that most Muslims have not read the Koran in a form of comparative study it is only referred to in pieces when necessary.  What was the mainstay of their faith was word of mouth. . . stories. . . stories handed down and changed  and changed until they do not have much in common with the original. 

So the Old Testament was used to show the original. 

By the time I left - they were amazed at what they THOUGHT was in the Bible and what actually was in it.  They started reading the Bible. 

Was this worth eating with them daily for six months?  Was it worth putting aside my own choice of foods (I was sooooo salad hungry when I got back to the States.) and food preparation . . . to sit with a family who worshiped a different god?

I'll let you be the judge. . .

But if I had to do it again, I would.  Without reservation.  Food opens so many conversations and trust in so many different cultures.  If you can share a meal then words might be easier to swallow, as well. 






+

Dear quitemorning,

What you have done is what a mature in the faith and firmly grounded Christian is capable of doing by the grace of the Lord. It is quite beautiful and inspiring, may God increase his grace upon you!!! In situations like that your influence can be felt by them spiritually speaking, and they can be lead to the Truth, by pursuing their inquiry. They have now stepped out of being totally convinced that the Quran is unquestionable, towards questioning it and even better towards reading the bible that by itself is an incredible achievement! Glory be to God! May he continue to guide them towards Orthodoxy!

The intimacy of sharing a meal, with non believers can be done by the spiritually strong / mature among us, without them being spiritually harmed, it is in fact one of the methods of evangelizing that has been used by Our Lord himself and the apostles as well. However for the young in the faith, it is a traitorous road.

If we think about it from the perspective of a higherarchial pastoral duty over and towards the faithful, the society of Christians must answer in how they must deal with an aggressive ideology that challenges Christianity with its imitation of scripture and figures in scripture. The church has dealt with judaisers, and pagans initially however, Islam is a new ideology that equips itself with a seemingly abrhamic religion like Judaism but stands in complete opposition to it, as well as to the incarnation, not to mention its political ambition. Therefore, as Christians with the duty of bringing the Good News to all, we must be wise in how we chose to do it without losing some the wolves that will infiltrate harnessing every opportunity. How to balance Christian charity with appropriate caution in the protection of the young among us needs to be addressed. While separation of the meal time prayer, and the meal itself might seem drastic,  in the case of the situation in Ethiopia( where meals are served in a common plate for the majority of the country where all gather around it and pray and give thanks and partake together from the single plate, it represents a sign of brotherhood in faith, unity), both Muslims and Christians have found it necessary and helpful to stress in the union of sharing a meal should be done with those common in faith, and if there is a guest of different faith to allow him or her to serve and eat in a different plate if so wished. This is not to say that there are no exceptions, I am just explaining the norm and the reasoning behind it, it must not be understood as a dogma, we have a saying if you have no alternative “ bilawina teqedes” /”eat what they serve you and glorify God”. However if there is a choice  and you are facing a dilemma between eating this food and not eating it “ adle’ewa’  le Tsome”/ “ judge in favor of fasting or abstaining from it”. The main guiding principle is our Lord’s Commandment of Love in not harming a brother (Charity toward the young).

While you were successful in making those Muslims question the Quran, by harnessing the attachment formed in sharing meals and spending time together, the reverse has been known to happen also with dire consequences. Some have lost faith in Christianity and any other religion; some have joined Islam, because from the Muslim’s side when one meets those who are indeed educated of their faith and are devout practitioner who are also actively engaged in missionary work, there are apologists among them also well versed with our scripture enough to confuse if not to convince a young believer. For this reason among others, the blanket protective measure is taken pastorally with the spiritual welfare of the weakest member taken into consideration. This is being in the same mind as St. Paul when he speaks of never eating meat again for the sake of youngest brother! Even though he personally has been many things to many, he was also careful to advise caution from forming uneven associations.

If it was dealing with Apollo or Athena, it might have been an easier ideology to deal with for a present day Christian, but to deal with someone who calls on the name of Abraham, Mosses, Jesus, and has a book to show you that claims to be the right book, the confusion ensues for many. Islam has been known to infiltrate in a quietly manner through trade and social interactions as well, to protect the young the pastoral care makes it necessary to advise caution, While it is within the right of a Christian to associate with a non believer, one must do it with caution, being wise like the serpent, and meek like the dove, because the wolves are at work.

Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.1 Corinthians 10:23

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14

Then in the case of Islam many argue that the prohibition that applies to food that is offered to idols applies to Islamic foods as well. Whether we agree that the Allah is the same as the Christian and Judaic Allah or not, if one of us believes that to be a meat blessed in the name of an idol, then because of that person’s conscious we will abstain from it together. If one believes the meat to be slaughtered for an idol then both the apostles and the Lord warn us from encouraging people to eat it, not because it will defile them in a ritualistic sense but what associations or spiritual union will form and what spiritual harm will follow from it. If we ask ourselves why the apostles forbade people from eating food  that was sacrificed for idols , and why  in the revelation 2:20 the lord warns the Church in Thyatira, we know that it is not the food in itself that is the problem but the prayers and the formation of immediate or gradual spiritual unions, why the apostle St. Paul warns the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 10:20-21, and how he forbids eating food offered to demons ( some have argued that since idols like Zeus did not in reality exist what harm is it to eat whatever people might have sacrificed in her name, but here the apostle says although those idols of wood and stone do not in reality exist but the one behind the scene are demons who are leading people astray with their teachings of falsehood, from worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel) by using a similar argument, the Muslim Allah is not God but a demon who lead people astray away from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. Thus anything done in his name they refuse to partake of. Again this is not a new argument, and it is left to each individual to decide whether or not the Allah of Islam is God, and then take from there.

I for one knowingly will not eat meat known to be of a Muslim slaughter, not only for the sake of others but for my own conscience as well. However ,I  absolutely do not demand that others do the same .

Like all things in Christianity knowing How to keep the balance of using Christian freedom and the necessary caution while living our daily Christian life in this world and carrying out the Apostolic work the Church then is the key.The early Church has done it with Judiasim and Paganisim, we can learn a lot  from that and do the same in evangelising the muslims as well. for instance St Paul advises not to investigate about what you are buying from the meat market, or the meal you are being served when called into the house of an unbeliever 1Corinthians 10:25_27. But if you do know then it is time to apply Christian wisdom that not only focuses on what one can successfully do, but also on the effect of the action on the youngest brother who sees it.

Now I am only sharing my views on this matter, not telling what others should or should not do. Forgive me if I have sounded like I am lecturing, I am merely pointing out how I look at things and why. I am also open to hear the opinion of others on the matter. I will not be around this weekend SoI wish Blessed Nativity for all those that will celebrate it first.  God be with us all.

In Christ,
Hiwot.
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2011, 07:20:46 PM »

Hiwot,

Thank you for your beautifully written and very wise words!  Last night I was thinking about this post - and thought about the scenarios you presented here - and I agree.  I was well prepared before I entered into this position for six months.  I knew before I went that I would go. 

If I look at someone young in the faith, you are absolutely right - there would be no protection against very skillfully worked arguments or statements. 

If I were with someone of my faith sitting at the same table and they had any question of this - then my first responsibility is to my brother or sister.  Being one in faith is a much stronger witness than anything else I could possibly present.

Smiley 

It was a pleasure to read your words, thank you for taking the time write.

In peace, In Christ,
Amen

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In His Mercy,
BethAnna
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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2011, 07:32:22 PM »

Thank you my dear sister, for understanding as I have trusted you would, and your gracious reply! It is always a pleasure to read what you have to say, I mean it truly!

God bless you!
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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2011, 09:41:17 AM »

i think this is what saint paul meant when he said 'eat what is set before you', then in the next verse (1 corinthians 10 v 29) it says that if another believer with you questions what you are eating, you are not to eat it, for his sake.
so the way i see it is that any eating of food from other religions should be done as part on evangelistic endeavor, not just because it tastes nice or is convenient.

i think it makes sense that as a general rule, we should abstain from foods that may have been 'sacrificed to idols'; however i think that it is possible to have different views on how we should interpret this in practice.
i leave room for others to disagree...
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« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2011, 10:15:40 AM »

Jews are God's chosen people and Muslims have God's true prophet but we get all the bacon.
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2011, 11:44:45 AM »

Jews are God's chosen people and Muslims have God's true prophet but we get all the bacon.
lol
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« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2011, 01:28:33 PM »

Here in Alexandria, Egypt, all meat is "halal". Actually that is not a kind of meat, but "halal" just means "permissible according to Islamic Sharia". Kinds of meat that are "haram", i.e. "forbidden according to Islamic Sharia" simply are not available. The habit of the local Christians simply is to pray in a Christian manner over the food and eat. And that seems to be quite a Biblical attitude to me. On the other hand, if you have a choice which meat to buy, personally I'd rather give my money to a Christian butcher.
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« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2011, 06:45:03 PM »

Man, y'all aren't around enough pagans if you're worrying about this. Considering my local grocery store sells candles, incense, and images of Chango, Eleggua, la Santa Muerte, and Jesus Malverde, and I work next to a great big temple to Krishna, if I'm eating meat that's slaughtered in the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that's more than good enough for me.
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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2011, 10:13:06 AM »


Please don't take this "Halal" thing lightly. I don't advice anyone who is a Christian to eat islamic food: for spiritual; for health, and economical relataed reasons. Halal food is bad for your soul, it is unhealthy. Do make some research. And if you go to the next Arab or Turkish Kebap house you are helping their Jihad.

Ethiopians are stricktly instructed not to eat islamic food. Christian and Muslim slaughter houses are separated, Christian butchers put Christian Crosses infront of their shops.

So, if you want that your sisters or wives don't grow moustaches like Turkish women, please do stay away from Kebap locals.

 Dear Balthazar

here are the things that make sense to me personally...

the spiritual reason of not sharing a meal with the Muslims+ sharing a meal usually forms a human bond, and  in the long run that bond also might lead to spiritual conformity, to avoid that , we are discouraged from eating with the Muslims, especially their meat as slaughtering of our animals has to be done by a practicing christian who keeps the fasts etc. and the Holy Trinity invoked. it makes sense that the Christians would not think of eating the Muslim's slaughtered in their own religious manner of doing the deed.

The economical reason is also a valid one to consider seriously, at least for me, I like to try and direct my help towards the cause that I believe in. and helping the christian butcher is serving the Church to me.  on some cases not buying my favorite candy from someone is an informed decision I make that factors in my political and economic , as well as spiritual view. It seems to me , that is also part of the reason in the separation of Islamic slaughter houses and the Christian ones in Ethiopia.

the health reason LOL it might be true that eating something that makes us uncomfortable will lead to  psychosomatic signs and symptoms, that have nothing to do with the healthiness of the food we are eating Wink

Find a  Christian Arab, or Turkish and support their honest business, that will be serving the Lord. one must be very careful to avoid such ethnic view of Islamic religion, I understood you Balthazar that you were referring to the Jihadists, however, I ask you to think carefully about directing that kind of generalisations about a certain group of ethnicity, Islam is not owned by one ethnicity it is a global ideology, with global politicall and religious Totalitarian ambitions. the part about the mustaches, are not acceptable by anybody's standard, that's unbecoming of you as a christian my brother. though your heart may be bleeding with pain, do not let your grief cloud your christian judgement, if you do, know that the enemy wins.

having said the above, to the OP, if he has no other alternative, he is under no spiritual obligation or rule that will defile him if he were to eat what is presented to him after blessing it in a christian manner. each situation ofc is different and because of that we have to think of our faithful brothers, and the non believers as well and discern which serves to harm none spiritually.

With Love in Christ,
Hiwot.

Dear Hiwot, thank you for your wonderful response. I completely agree with most of your thoughts on this and other subjects.

A geat response to "Quitemorning" -- exactly my thoughts. Though it is admirable what Quitemorning is doing, I don't support the idea to give more energy to others than our own brothers and sisters in Christ. At this age of time we have to worry more about us and those 'Christians' who have fallen from faith. We spend 1400 years doing the same thing with the Ishamelites. It is time to teach our own brothes and sisters, sons and daughters the whole truth about the demonic sect of Islam.
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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2011, 03:06:07 PM »

perhaps u disagree with Jesus Himself appearing to them in dreams and visions.
even my own friend who left that religion has a vision of an orthodox bishop who showed her the way.
hating people won't help your soul.
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