Author Topic: Abortion Q  (Read 5186 times)

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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2011, 08:47:29 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question :)

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline LBK

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2011, 09:11:43 PM »
Quote
Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

The above is irrelevant where a woman has been raped.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 09:12:06 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2011, 10:37:37 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question :)

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 


Please provide us with cases of women being tied down and literally forced to give birth to their children. Even when abortion was illegal, nobody was ever tied down and forced to give birth. If it did happen it was quite illegal, because such an action would essentially be false imprisonment or kidnapping. So, let's please stop with the propaganda about women being "forced" to give birth if abortion were illegal.

Nobody can force somebody not to kill themselves; however, I don't think we should legalize "suicide clinics" so that people can kill themselves "safely." Nor do I think that we should be so callous and indifferent as to say, "Unless you have been suicidal yourself, you have no right to condemn the action of suicide by someone else. It's their body, and therefore you should leave the decision to them."



Selam

Right you are. That's why I said it was ridiculous. Men are clearly not an equal decider.


Women do not have any more right to decide the fate of unborn life than men do. The life that has been created in the womb has been granted by God, and nobody has more or less of a right to determine whether that child lives or dies.



Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2011, 11:54:45 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question :)

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2011, 12:29:56 AM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question :)

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
But that's not the point of this discussion as this point was defined in the OP. We're discussing an Orthodox response to abortion, NOT whether women are or should be free to choose what they think is best for them.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2011, 12:08:49 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question :)

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
But that's not the point of this discussion as this point was defined in the OP. We're discussing an Orthodox response to abortion, NOT whether women are or should be free to choose what they think is best for them.

Okay.. I apologize for my recent crankiness.. Purple demons.. I got myself over hungry so I have allowed myself more food. The clouds parted and the Sun came out. The Fast is intended to make you spiritually stronger...not turn you into a Mass Murderer.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Online vamrat

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2011, 12:25:50 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question :)

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
But that's not the point of this discussion as this point was defined in the OP. We're discussing an Orthodox response to abortion, NOT whether women are or should be free to choose what they think is best for them.

Okay.. I apologize for my recent crankiness.. Purple demons.. I got myself over hungry so I have allowed myself more food. The clouds parted and the Sun came out. The Fast is intended to make you spiritually stronger...not turn you into a Mass Murderer.

I have often wondered about this paradox.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2011, 02:37:45 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
That very well may be true, but we are not out in the rest of the world, we are on OC.net forum, an Orthodox Christian message board, and further I have been discussing the specifically Orthodox interpretation and response the OP question which asked to discuss the Orthodox feelings about abortion in such circumstances :)

The world wasn't always filled with deadbeat dads out there, they are  product of our societies but that is not the natural role of male mammals.  Again, the idea that a man only has "the power of persuasion" is rather self-defeating for women's cause, but if as a society we want to continue to denigrate men's roles and responsibilities, well, what should we expect from men then?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2011, 11:04:19 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question :)

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
But that's not the point of this discussion as this point was defined in the OP. We're discussing an Orthodox response to abortion, NOT whether women are or should be free to choose what they think is best for them.

Okay.. I apologize for my recent crankiness.. Purple demons.. I got myself over hungry so I have allowed myself more food. The clouds parted and the Sun came out. The Fast is intended to make you spiritually stronger...not turn you into a Mass Murderer.

I have often wondered about this paradox.
Yeah, I'm frequently reminded during these seasons of the words of St. John Chrysostom (I believe) about how we fast from meat yet eat each other.
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2011, 06:13:53 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Yeah, I'm frequently reminded during these seasons of the words of St. John Chrysostom (I believe) about how we fast from meat yet eat each other.

Amen Amen!

Quote
"Now if you are biting and devouring each other, beware that you may not be consumed by one another!"
Galations 5:15

This is why I take Apostle's Paul's advice well to heart in the context of all inter-brethren conflicts:

Quote
Futhermore brethren: rejoice, adjust, be entreated, be mutually disposed, be at peace."
2 Corinthians 13:11

If we rejoice in our brethren, if we are adjusted towards this cause, if we are constantly entreated towards each others' needs, having been mutually disposed towards each other, then we shall find peace in our hearts, but like all things in Orthodox, this is a continual process, not an instant becoming.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 06:14:34 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2012, 06:33:25 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.
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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2012, 06:41:04 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam


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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2012, 06:49:01 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




And yet you make that judgement every day.
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2012, 06:52:26 PM »
Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn. how can you decide that?
Proverbs 22:7

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2012, 06:56:57 PM »
Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn. how can you decide that?

If we take this all seriously, which no one really does.

First, God is in fact the one who decided to take any life.

Second, in terms of our own pathetic notions of free will within temporality in late capitalism, we choose to kill people every day. Each one of us. Every day. No exceptions. We are all murders. And I am not claiming some stupid Christian piety about the contents on one's heart, but that we actually and intentionally destroy human lives.

The argument could be made that such decisions were also made outside our epoch, but its a bit more complicated.

EDIT: gotta run, sorry for the typos.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 06:58:20 PM by orthonorm »
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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2012, 09:20:18 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2012, 09:22:58 PM »
Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn. how can you decide that?

If we take this all seriously, which no one really does.

First, God is in fact the one who decided to take any life.

Second, in terms of our own pathetic notions of free will within temporality in late capitalism, we choose to kill people every day. Each one of us. Every day. No exceptions. We are all murders. And I am not claiming some stupid Christian piety about the contents on one's heart, but that we actually and intentionally destroy human lives.

The argument could be made that such decisions were also made outside our epoch, but its a bit more complicated.

EDIT: gotta run, sorry for the typos.

Speak for yourself. I don't "Choose to kill people everyday" .. What in the world are you talking about ??
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2012, 11:34:38 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




And yet you make that judgement every day.


Really? You are accusing me of deliberately killing innocent people every day?


Selam
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2012, 11:35:40 PM »
Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn. how can you decide that?


No it is not. Your premise is false.



Selam
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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2012, 11:38:24 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2012, 12:36:12 AM »
When the mother's life is threatened by giving birth I would say there is nothing wrong with abortion. One or the other has to survive, and since we cannot even ensure that the child will live when it is delivered, we are better focusing on the health of the mother in these unfortunate situations.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2012, 12:36:19 AM »
Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn.
No, it's not. In some cases, it's best to not take action and trust God to do what's best.
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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2012, 12:42:31 AM »
A man definitely has just as much of a right as the woman does when deciding whether she should have an abortion or not. If some people are going to argue that the woman has more of a right because she is the one that has to give birth to it, then a man could just as easily argue that he has a right too since he has to pay eighteen years of child support depending on her decision.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2012, 12:46:08 AM »
A man definitely has just as much of a right as the woman does when deciding whether she should have an abortion or not. If some people are going to argue that the woman has more of a right because she is the one that has to give birth to it, then a man could just as easily argue that he has a right too since he has to pay eighteen years of child support depending on her decision.
I don't think that's the issue here, and it certainly isn't consistent with the traditional Orthodox teaching that NO ONE has the right to choose to abort a pregnancy. There's also one sure way that a man can guarantee that he'll never have to pay child support: Don't fool around.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 12:48:00 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2012, 12:47:01 AM »
When the mother's life is threatened by giving birth I would say there is nothing wrong with abortion. One or the other has to survive, and since we cannot even ensure that the child will live when it is delivered, we are better focusing on the health of the mother in these unfortunate situations.

Let us suppose that the child in question is nine months along in its gestation before the complications in question arise, so as to avoid any quibbling as to whether it is a person or not. That much supposed:

1. Please say how, as a general principle, we can ever be sure who will live and who will die.

2. Please justify your proposition beginning with "and since" and ending in "unfortunate situations".

3. Crucially, please say how deliberately electing to kill one person so that another might live is morally better than allowing two people to die of "natural causes".
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Offline Ionnis

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2012, 12:51:45 AM »
Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn.
No, it's not. In some cases, it's best to not take action and trust God to do what's best.

Indeed.  And I can scarcely think of a more heavy cross to bear.  They are truly passion bearers.   
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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2012, 12:56:11 AM »
1. Please say how, as a general principle, we can ever be sure who will live and who will die.

Medical science, rational thinking etc.

Quote
2. Please justify your proposition beginning with "and since" and ending in "unfortunate situations".

I concede; I cannot justify it.

Quote
3. Crucially, please say how deliberately electing to kill one person so that another might live is morally better than allowing two people to die of "natural causes".

Morally it is not better. But the law is a different thing than our Orthodox morals. Legally the law is concerned with what will preserve the most life; not what is morally correct. In the morally correct scenerio, both people die from natural causes. In the legal utilitarian sense, only one dies and another lives. The law has to do what will preserve more life; not what is morally sound.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2012, 01:02:33 AM »
James, thank you for your answers.

I respond only briefly as follows.

1. Please say how, as a general principle, we can ever be sure who will live and who will die.

Medical science, rational thinking etc.

Medical science and reason provide good parameters for predicting what may or may not happen, but they do not provide certainty. I am convinced that, as human beings, one of the most important things we must learn is that we are not, ultimately, in control.

2. Please justify your proposition beginning with "and since" and ending in "unfortunate situations".

I concede; I cannot justify it.

Thank you for your honesty. It is a difficult proposition to justify, except for the GiC's amongst us.

3. Crucially, please say how deliberately electing to kill one person so that another might live is morally better than allowing two people to die of "natural causes".

Morally it is not better. But the law is a different thing than our Orthodox morals. Legally the law is concerned with what will preserve the most life; not what is morally correct. In the morally correct scenerio, both people die from natural causes. In the legal utilitarian sense, only one dies and another lives. The law has to do what will preserve more life; not what is morally sound.

I'm not quite sure that is true. It would certainly depend on which eminent jurist you are questioning on the subject (and, after all, what is the law but what eminent jurists say and do?). I can tell you, from my experience, that in many areas, the law refuses to entertain utilitarian logic.
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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2012, 02:52:39 AM »
Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn.
No, it's not. In some cases, it's best to not take action and trust God to do what's best.

I don't think his point is that easily dismissed though. Your response sounds great when discussing the issue on an Orthodox Christian forum. Otherwise, many people (most importantly women who are likely to choose abortion) may presume that Tallitot's point is the case.

I do hope that when discussing this issue with those of different opinions, we don't focus too much on this point.  My understanding is that it's a fairly rare situation, so devoting a lot of effort to a largely hypothetical occurrence isn't helpful.  Secondly, it's liable to make people think we're overly odd and subsequently disregard our opinions on the overall issue.  A little subtlety can help sometimes (I'm not lecturing you, PtA, just making an observation in general).
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2012, 03:47:53 AM »
Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn.
No, it's not. In some cases, it's best to not take action and trust God to do what's best.

Indeed.  And I can scarcely think of a more heavy cross to bear.  They are truly passion bearers.   

Amen. As Our Lord said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." [St. John 15:13]


Selam
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2012, 11:02:22 AM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2012, 04:24:55 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2012, 06:50:26 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2012, 10:04:19 PM »
Morally it is not better. But the law is a different thing than our Orthodox morals. Legally the law is concerned with what will preserve the most life; not what is morally correct. In the morally correct scenerio, both people die from natural causes. In the legal utilitarian sense, only one dies and another lives. The law has to do what will preserve more life; not what is morally sound.

I don't know if this is true or not, to be honest. But if it is, then the law is wrong, based on the wrong principles, and needs to be changed. You might as well say "The law is different from our Orthodox morals: it allows abortion." as what you actually said. Both statements assume that a morally-incorrect law can still be accepted as in some sense "OK," because that's what the law is.
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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2012, 03:01:30 AM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.


And yet you have no problem passing judgment on an innocent unborn child, and you preach your own morality to us.



Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2012, 12:01:09 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.


And yet you have no problem passing judgment on an innocent unborn child, and you preach your own morality to us.



Selam

Pontificating on the Internet is just prideful idle musing. The person making the actual decision would be the Woman herself. 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2012, 12:02:59 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.


And yet you have no problem passing judgment on an innocent unborn child, and you preach your own morality to us.



Selam

Pontificating on the Internet is just prideful idle musing. The person making the actual decision would be the Woman herself. 

Do you take this attitude with respect to other killings?
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'These words I, Leo, have set down for love and as a safeguard of the Orthodox Faith'

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Abortion Q
« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2012, 12:08:27 PM »
Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.


And yet you have no problem passing judgment on an innocent unborn child, and you preach your own morality to us.



Selam

Pontificating on the Internet is just prideful idle musing. The person making the actual decision would be the Woman herself. 

Do you take this attitude with respect to other killings?

Like passing judgement on Soldiers? Yup, I back off on that too understanding it's really not my business to butt in or condemn them as "killers".

Ask Gebre about that. He doesn't think fighting a war (if killing is involved) is ever justified..

I think a bit of discernment, common sense and mercy should prevail over very complicated decisions rather than paint them with one very broad brush
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm