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Author Topic: Abortion Q  (Read 4375 times) Average Rating: 0
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2011, 01:56:15 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

( Here we go  Smiley

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police
Has this scenario actually happened, or are you making it up for rhetorical purposes?

Reply #13.
Oh, okay. I forgot that I had seen that post. Thanks.
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« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2011, 02:45:04 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?

Without giving a direct answer, I would say part of coming to any conclusion should be to recognize the child as a living human person made in the image and likeness of God. We believe that the Word became flesh, ask yourself at what point during Mary's pregnancy this happened, and then you should have a good perspective on what is involved in terminating the pregnancy and ending that human life.


Excellent point.



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« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2011, 03:39:36 PM »

It's not at all uncommon for a Women to have a condition that if she carries to term will kill her. Cancer being the most obvious. if she gets treated right away, the baby will abort. If she doesnt she will not survive... I am sure there are other situations as well, hemophilia for example, Women with certain heart conditions...etc.

Do you have a source for the assertion that it is not at all uncommon?  What incidence would you describe as common versus uncommon?
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« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2011, 03:41:32 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
Yes, the Orthodox Church has been very clear about allwoing abortion to save the life of the mother.  But it is rare today.

Thank you for this, you answered what was going to be my next question.
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« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2011, 04:12:43 PM »

It's not at all uncommon for a Women to have a condition that if she carries to term will kill her. Cancer being the most obvious. if she gets treated right away, the baby will abort. If she doesnt she will not survive... I am sure there are other situations as well, hemophilia for example, Women with certain heart conditions...etc.

Do you have a source for the assertion that it is not at all uncommon?  What incidence would you describe as common versus uncommon?

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

You're question is a Red Herring. A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 04:13:24 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2011, 04:24:18 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
Yes, the Orthodox Church has been very clear about allwoing abortion to save the life of the mother.  But it is rare today.

Thank you for this, you answered what was going to be my next question.

How do you know it's "Rare"? People often get abortions on the down low. But if you look at the tremendous numbers of Women with Cancer, Heart Disease and Diabetes ( tens of millions) then simple math should tell you that a percentage will turn up pregnant.
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« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2011, 04:35:19 PM »

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

So why did you bring it up?

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

So you have no source.  Thanks.

A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  

You are the person who felt it necessary to comment on the fact that you think it is not uncommon, so I don't understand why you are now asserting that it doesn't matter how common or uncommon it is.

While the incidence of the problem does not change my personal belief regarding this issue, I can see how it might for others.  I can see it influencing people either way, actually.
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« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2011, 04:36:59 PM »

How do you know it's "Rare"? People often get abortions on the down low. But if you look at the tremendous numbers of Women with Cancer, Heart Disease and Diabetes ( tens of millions) then simple math should tell you that a percentage will turn up pregnant.

I did not say that it's rare.  I just asked how you knew it's not uncommon.
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« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2011, 04:37:05 PM »

http://oca.org/resource-handbook/familylife/october-pregnancy-and-infant-loss-awareness-month

Quote
It my belief that both the Gospel and the Orthodox Church hold that life begins at conception—that is, the fertilization of the ovum by the sperm. God knows the name and age of each person from their mother’s womb, is what we pray during the Liturgy of St. Basil. We must therefore recognize that pregnancy loss—miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy or stillbirth—all result in the death of a human being, a baby, a Child of God. Parents who were anticipating life are now confronted with death. These deaths result in millions of parents and families grieving.

And I cannot quote this, as there is no copy and paste feature - but the below link is a quote from The sacred gift of life: Orthodox Christianity and bioethics By John Breck.  I honestly do not know if this is the Church's stance toward a ectopic (heh. . . I learned how to spell the word doing this!) pregnancies - but it seems that ectopc pregnancies are seen the same as a miscarriage - a very grievous loss.   I suggest reading through to at least page 163 for the whole content of the Church's stance.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hwYIdl1NO_oC&lpg=PA160&ots=3hcIbRYD1E&dq=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&f=false

I'd like to find something more specific. . .but THIS is the merciful church I've come to know and love - that yes, there is the hard. . .but there is also the compassion and mercy as Christ Himself taught us.

We are to walk according to our strength and it is in our weakness that His work in us is made strong.  I know I've survived three pregnancies in congestive heart failure.  They are here, and so am I. . . I just didn't feel like I was ever in any danger. . . **shrugs** Sometimes peace is weird like that.  Smiley

Any who - the links might offer some food for thought.  I don't think I'm inclined to argue. . .in my life - God is and He has me.  And for that I'm forever grateful.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 04:47:58 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2011, 04:58:51 PM »

It's not at all uncommon for a Women to have a condition that if she carries to term will kill her. Cancer being the most obvious. if she gets treated right away, the baby will abort. If she doesnt she will not survive... I am sure there are other situations as well, hemophilia for example, Women with certain heart conditions...etc.

Do you have a source for the assertion that it is not at all uncommon?  What incidence would you describe as common versus uncommon?

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

You're question is a Red Herring. A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  


Hemophilia :zero women. The woman passes the defective gene to the male progeny - not all of them, but some. Just to clarify.  Leukemia would be a better example.
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« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2011, 06:03:11 PM »

oops ignore - I is confused.  **blushes**
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 06:03:57 PM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2011, 06:47:16 PM »

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

So why did you bring it up?

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

So you have no source.  Thanks.

A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  

You are the person who felt it necessary to comment on the fact that you think it is not uncommon, so I don't understand why you are now asserting that it doesn't matter how common or uncommon it is.

While the incidence of the problem does not change my personal belief regarding this issue, I can see how it might for others.  I can see it influencing people either way, actually.

Do you truly need exact numbers in order for you to understand this or are you just trying to divert the conversation?

How do you suppose numbers could be collected? I'm at a loss to know how many abortions are due to medical necessity. I doubt anyone collects that sort of information. If you have some insight that I am missing please fill us in.

However, even a person with a rudimentary understanding of large numbers can look at the millions upon millions of Women with life threatening illnesses and postulate that this situation must be common enough to pose a dilemma.

Lets err on the side of low numbers. If there are only 5 Million Women with life threatening diseases ( Heart Disease, Cancer, Severe Diabetes) and just 1% get pregnant..  That's 50,000 Women. If .05 get pregnant, that's 25,000 Women.

Good enough?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/red%20herring

Definition of RED HERRING
1: a herring cured by salting and slow smoking to a dark brown color

2[from the practice of drawing a red herring across a trail to confuse hunting dogs] : something that distracts attention from the real issue
See red herring defined for English-language learners »
See red herring defined for kids »
Examples of RED HERRING

    The argument is a red herring. It actually has nothing to do with the issue.
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« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2011, 06:59:50 PM »

We have dogmatic principles that guide our decision making, but the ugly truth is that s**t happens. So how do we deal with it when blanket statements just won't do?
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« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2011, 07:05:30 PM »

Turns out the issue is before congress right now.. Must be a common enough situation to deserve this much attention:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/11/protect-life-act-anti-abortion-bill_n_1005937.html

WASHINGTON -- The House is scheduled to vote this week on a new bill that would allow federally-funded hospitals that oppose abortions to refuse to perform the procedure, even in cases where a woman would die without it
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« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2011, 07:09:15 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.
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« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2011, 07:20:09 PM »

I have a question. What is the stance of the Orthodox Church in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, wherein the embryo lodges in the Fallopian tubes and results in heavy hemorrhage, and as far as I've heard always leads to either a miscarriage or death? I am not pro-abortion. I just wanted to know if a person is allowed to do anything when there may be a threat to the life of the mother, in this case. Thank you.
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« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2011, 07:24:46 PM »

I have a question. What is the stance of the Orthodox Church in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, wherein the embryo lodges in the Fallopian tubes and results in heavy hemorrhage, and as far as I've heard always leads to either a miscarriage or death? I am not pro-abortion. I just wanted to know if a person is allowed to do anything when there may be a threat to the life of the mother, in this case. Thank you.

 See reply #53 especially the second link.
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« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2011, 07:29:49 PM »

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

So why did you bring it up?

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

So you have no source.  Thanks.

A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  

You are the person who felt it necessary to comment on the fact that you think it is not uncommon, so I don't understand why you are now asserting that it doesn't matter how common or uncommon it is.

While the incidence of the problem does not change my personal belief regarding this issue, I can see how it might for others.  I can see it influencing people either way, actually.

Do you truly need exact numbers in order for you to understand this or are you just trying to divert the conversation?

How do you suppose numbers could be collected? I'm at a loss to know how many abortions are due to medical necessity. I doubt anyone collects that sort of information. If you have some insight that I am missing please fill us in.

However, even a person with a rudimentary understanding of large numbers can look at the millions upon millions of Women with life threatening illnesses and postulate that this situation must be common enough to pose a dilemma.

Lets err on the side of low numbers. If there are only 5 Million Women with life threatening diseases ( Heart Disease, Cancer, Severe Diabetes) and just 1% get pregnant..  That's 50,000 Women. If .05 get pregnant, that's 25,000 Women.

Good enough?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/red%20herring

Definition of RED HERRING
1: a herring cured by salting and slow smoking to a dark brown color

2[from the practice of drawing a red herring across a trail to confuse hunting dogs] : something that distracts attention from the real issue
See red herring defined for English-language learners »
See red herring defined for kids »
Examples of RED HERRING

    The argument is a red herring. It actually has nothing to do with the issue.

You seem to be under the impression that we are having an argument.

We are not.

I asked you to define your terms and source your assertion.  I have never said or even implied that I disagree with you.  I only wanted to know where you were coming from with your statement.  I have no idea why you are reacting so stridently.

I agree that the issue has the potential to derail the thread and is at best marginally important to the meat of the conversation, and as such I am happy to let it go.
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« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2011, 07:43:11 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.
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« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2011, 09:54:30 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?
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« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2011, 10:04:27 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?
To discuss the Church's consistent teaching that abortion is a grave sin against the sanctity of human life is in keeping with the purpose of this Faith Issues board. To debate whether we should make abortion illegal is a discussion of proposed legislation that belongs only on the Politics board. Any more discussion of this political tangent will be moved to Politics, and formal warnings will be issued.
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« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2011, 10:16:23 PM »

I don't think what I'm about to say will violate Peter's direction above but please forgive me for any transgression.

Just for clarity, I meant homicide in the sense of "person-killing", not "murder". Not all person-killing is unlawful. Murder, manslaughter and any other form of killing with lawful excuse all constitute homicide.

Marc, if this discussion continues elsewhere I'd be glad to share my thoughts on the topic.
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« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2011, 10:39:38 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?


"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. And let their treatment depend not on mere lapse of time, but on the character of their repentance."

+St. Basil the Great+ [Letter 182]



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« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2011, 10:11:20 AM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?

Marc, I don't think it is so black and white.  There are plenty of reasons why someone would kill and the Church seems to deal with them differently.  A soldier who kills is not the same as a mercenary, thug, or assassin.  A person who defends their home and family by force of arms is not the same as a serial killer.  I think it stands to reason that a doctor who kills a baby in the effort to save a mother's life is not the same as a doctor who callously kills a baby so that the mother can go out and party again the next day.  How is the first doctor any different from one who performs surgery on someone that ends up killing them, supposing they were dead anyway without the surgery?  How is the latter any different from a paid assassin who kills a man's wife so that he can marry another?  I think the Church, and more importantly God who knows each man's heart, is able to discern intent and deal with the issue accordingly.
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« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2011, 10:54:50 AM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?

Marc, I don't think it is so black and white.  There are plenty of reasons why someone would kill and the Church seems to deal with them differently.  A soldier who kills is not the same as a mercenary, thug, or assassin.  A person who defends their home and family by force of arms is not the same as a serial killer.  I think it stands to reason that a doctor who kills a baby in the effort to save a mother's life is not the same as a doctor who callously kills a baby so that the mother can go out and party again the next day.  How is the first doctor any different from one who performs surgery on someone that ends up killing them, supposing they were dead anyway without the surgery?  How is the latter any different from a paid assassin who kills a man's wife so that he can marry another?  I think the Church, and more importantly God who knows each man's heart, is able to discern intent and deal with the issue accordingly.

We are in complete agreement.

 Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping.
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« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2011, 11:46:39 AM »


http://books.google.com/books?id=hwYIdl1NO_oC&lpg=PA160&ots=3hcIbRYD1E&dq=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&f=false

I'd like to find something more specific. . .but THIS is the merciful church I've come to know and love - that yes, there is the hard. . .but there is also the compassion and mercy as Christ Himself taught us.

This is what I feel as well. I typed out part of the text in the above link that deals with ectopic pregnancies:

"We need to make an important distinction, however, among these various situations. The first instance, in which the woman's life is seriously endangered, represents a special case insofar as the woman has no real choice in the matter. (It should be noted as well that these cases, which are the only ones that can be considered truly "therapeutic", account statistically for fewer than one percent of the nearly 1.4 million abortions performed in the United States each year.) In cases of ectopic pregnancy, life-threatening eclampsia or uterine cancer, the only choice is to work to save the woman's life or else lose both her and the child she is carrying. Even in those exceptional cases where a late-term child might be saved if the woman's life is sacrificed, Orthodox tradition has held that priority should go to preserving the mother."



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« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2011, 12:02:33 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP
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« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2011, 12:06:34 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end
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« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2011, 12:09:35 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end
Hey, I just dont think its a federal issue.

PP
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« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2011, 12:35:12 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

I find your response somewhat rude... but I have to wonder what is says about me that I was thinking the same thing...   Cheesy

Don't worry PP, I'm still on your side!   Wink



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« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 12:49:21 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2011, 12:44:25 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?

Marc, I don't think it is so black and white.  There are plenty of reasons why someone would kill and the Church seems to deal with them differently.  A soldier who kills is not the same as a mercenary, thug, or assassin.  A person who defends their home and family by force of arms is not the same as a serial killer.  I think it stands to reason that a doctor who kills a baby in the effort to save a mother's life is not the same as a doctor who callously kills a baby so that the mother can go out and party again the next day.  How is the first doctor any different from one who performs surgery on someone that ends up killing them, supposing they were dead anyway without the surgery?  How is the latter any different from a paid assassin who kills a man's wife so that he can marry another?  I think the Church, and more importantly God who knows each man's heart, is able to discern intent and deal with the issue accordingly.

We are in complete agreement.

 Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping.

I would say we are mostly in agreement, but not entirely.  For me the intent is what matters, not the time frame.  My issue with the time frame is, as others have brought up, Christ was fully God and fully Man from conception.  If Christ was fully Man, and he was there from conception, then it stands to reason that all men are alive from conception.  Saying otherwise would imply that Christ was not fully man, thus heresy (Monophosyitism?).  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can correct this if I have erred.   
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« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2011, 01:54:45 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

I find your response somewhat rude... but I have to wonder what is says about me that I was thinking the same thing...   Cheesy

Don't worry PP, I'm still on your side!   Wink



Obscenity replaced with something more acceptable for the public forum  -PtA
Thanks vam Smiley

I knew the agree-train I've been riding with Marc was gonna dreail sooner or later.

PP
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« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2011, 02:16:06 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

Ahem.. I would love for those 150 year old issues to have been long resolved, but America demonstrates every day that it is simply not the case, and the issues from the Civil War continue to haunt and divide Americans, even some folks on this forum have espoused silly ideas which I thought were resolved by that War but again, the issues are not exactly resolved at all! 
We have dogmatic principles that guide our decision making, but the ugly truth is that s**t happens. So how do we deal with it when blanket statements just won't do?

I would argue that we only have this crap happens kind of situation precisely because of bad legislation which has legally allowed a bad practice.  We fully understand that Orthodox absolutely rejects Euthanasia in any circumstances.  However, if in time Euthanasia becomes some kind of normal medical treatment like abortion has become, then perhaps folks with a straight face might propose apologetics for such actions.  It is only because abortion is a legal and recognized medical procedure that we are even having the discussion about its Orthodoxy.  We know that Fathers reject abortion as they do suicide, however we also know the Fathers emphasize repentance, reconciliation, and forgiveness.  In fact, we should HIGHLIGHT RIGHT HERE, THAT WHEN THE CHURCH REJECTS ABORTION IS ONLY FOR THE DEFINITION OF SIN AND CONFESSION.  We are not necessarily condemning anyone who has an abortion under any circumstances to eternal death and Hell, rather we are pointing out the definitions of which sins are appropriate and necessary for Confession, and which things are not.  Our Fathers help us to understand what is important to recognize and confess, and which things are merely our own over reactions to guilt and fear.  Not every thing is an offense necessary for Confession, and our Fathers help us with this process of understanding our sins and their effects and consequences.  So the Church is defining abortion as an absolute sin so that folks who have committed this Sin can and should know that they must take this sin to God in prayer and confession towards repentance.  They must REPENT of these sins and find God's Grace and Forgiveness.  

If abortion were simply not a medical option as it is today, this issue would effectively be silenced.  It is a MYTH and a FALLACY of the pro-abortion movements that "back-ally" abortions would rise and womens' health would be risked by outlawing abortion.  Abortion is not a necessary evil in our society, and to remove the option and close Pandora's box would stop all this debate and discussion in one sentence.  No, it would not resolve the issues of abortion to save a mother from a medical condition, but again, that is why we in the Church have the Unction of the Sick, precisely because from our weak and limited human perspective we can not fully understand the function and purpose of human illness and disease.  What separates a terminal pregnancy from any other terminal disease, risk, or condition? The only difference in this discussion is that we in this time have abortion as a quick fix, however if it were MY WIFE and MY CHILD, I simply wouldn't even want the option.  To have to make that decision is Solomon's wager, and killing the child to save the wife is splitting the baby in half with the sword.  True, you save the wife, but really, at what cost spiritually? Yes God can forgive ALL SINS, but that doesn't change the human experience of regret, of guilt, of fear..  

Quote
"Sickness in particular accentuates the fact THAT WE DO NOT CONTROL OUR OWN LIVES. If when we get sick, we respond by trying to grab even more rigid control of our lives, we are bound to fail.. We are potentially able to deepen our awareness of God, our dependence on Him, and our desire to seek His will.. In sickness we learn to depend upon others, even though we would prefer to be independent.  The fact that we learn to be dependent at all (something we usually shrug off as childlike, if not childish) HELPS US DEVELOP OR RELEARN A SENSE OF DEPENDENCE ON GOD.. The sick person, from a place of powerlessness, still has to learn to trust and to allow himself or herself to receive the available healing, no matter what happens.. Asking for a healing, we surrender to God. In the Mystery of the Anointing of the Sick, there is a strong awareness on behalf of the Church that the sick person is in the hands of God, and that God will provide the healing."
Father Meletios Webber Bread and Water, Wine and Oil.


Abortion puts couples in a terrible situation, it gives an unnatural option that God didn't necessarily intend us to have to grapple with.  God alone has the Divine wisdom to create, sustain, and control the flow of life on earth, we as humans are too limited to have this responsibility.  When we give ourselves this kind of escape hatch, we are in a sense adding complications to our mission of living here on Earth.  There are no escape hatches from life, only prayer and turning to God.  Abortion is an unfortunate reality, but one which we do not have to accept.  Yes we live in the real world, and things beyond our comprehension happen all the time, however this is why we have God in our lives in the first place, because since Adam and Eve's first mistake we have effectively demonstrated across all generations of humanity that we are simply not any good at being responsible for ourselves..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2011, 02:16:44 PM »


http://books.google.com/books?id=hwYIdl1NO_oC&lpg=PA160&ots=3hcIbRYD1E&dq=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&f=false

I'd like to find something more specific. . .but THIS is the merciful church I've come to know and love - that yes, there is the hard. . .but there is also the compassion and mercy as Christ Himself taught us.

This is what I feel as well. I typed out part of the text in the above link that deals with ectopic pregnancies:

"We need to make an important distinction, however, among these various situations. The first instance, in which the woman's life is seriously endangered, represents a special case insofar as the woman has no real choice in the matter. (It should be noted as well that these cases, which are the only ones that can be considered truly "therapeutic", account statistically for fewer than one percent of the nearly 1.4 million abortions performed in the United States each year.) In cases of ectopic pregnancy, life-threatening eclampsia or uterine cancer, the only choice is to work to save the woman's life or else lose both her and the child she is carrying. Even in those exceptional cases where a late-term child might be saved if the woman's life is sacrificed, Orthodox tradition has held that priority should go to preserving the mother."





Thank you Opus18!!
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« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2011, 03:48:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

Ahem.. I would love for those 150 year old issues to have been long resolved, but America demonstrates every day that it is simply not the case, and the issues from the Civil War continue to haunt and divide Americans, even some folks on this forum have espoused silly ideas which I thought were resolved by that War but again, the issues are not exactly resolved at all! 
We have dogmatic principles that guide our decision making, but the ugly truth is that s**t happens. So how do we deal with it when blanket statements just won't do?

I would argue that we only have this crap happens kind of situation precisely because of bad legislation which has legally allowed a bad practice.  We fully understand that Orthodox absolutely rejects Euthanasia in any circumstances.  However, if in time Euthanasia becomes some kind of normal medical treatment like abortion has become, then perhaps folks with a straight face might propose apologetics for such actions.  It is only because abortion is a legal and recognized medical procedure that we are even having the discussion about its Orthodoxy.  We know that Fathers reject abortion as they do suicide, however we also know the Fathers emphasize repentance, reconciliation, and forgiveness.  In fact, we should HIGHLIGHT RIGHT HERE, THAT WHEN THE CHURCH REJECTS ABORTION IS ONLY FOR THE DEFINITION OF SIN AND CONFESSION.  We are not necessarily condemning anyone who has an abortion under any circumstances to eternal death and Hell, rather we are pointing out the definitions of which sins are appropriate and necessary for Confession, and which things are not.  Our Fathers help us to understand what is important to recognize and confess, and which things are merely our own over reactions to guilt and fear.  Not every thing is an offense necessary for Confession, and our Fathers help us with this process of understanding our sins and their effects and consequences.  So the Church is defining abortion as an absolute sin so that folks who have committed this Sin can and should know that they must take this sin to God in prayer and confession towards repentance.  They must REPENT of these sins and find God's Grace and Forgiveness.  

If abortion were simply not a medical option as it is today, this issue would effectively be silenced.  It is a MYTH and a FALLACY of the pro-abortion movements that "back-ally" abortions would rise and womens' health would be risked by outlawing abortion.  Abortion is not a necessary evil in our society, and to remove the option and close Pandora's box would stop all this debate and discussion in one sentence.  No, it would not resolve the issues of abortion to save a mother from a medical condition, but again, that is why we in the Church have the Unction of the Sick, precisely because from our weak and limited human perspective we can not fully understand the function and purpose of human illness and disease.  What separates a terminal pregnancy from any other terminal disease, risk, or condition? The only difference in this discussion is that we in this time have abortion as a quick fix, however if it were MY WIFE and MY CHILD, I simply wouldn't even want the option.  To have to make that decision is Solomon's wager, and killing the child to save the wife is splitting the baby in half with the sword.  True, you save the wife, but really, at what cost spiritually? Yes God can forgive ALL SINS, but that doesn't change the human experience of regret, of guilt, of fear..  

Quote
"Sickness in particular accentuates the fact THAT WE DO NOT CONTROL OUR OWN LIVES. If when we get sick, we respond by trying to grab even more rigid control of our lives, we are bound to fail.. We are potentially able to deepen our awareness of God, our dependence on Him, and our desire to seek His will.. In sickness we learn to depend upon others, even though we would prefer to be independent.  The fact that we learn to be dependent at all (something we usually shrug off as childlike, if not childish) HELPS US DEVELOP OR RELEARN A SENSE OF DEPENDENCE ON GOD.. The sick person, from a place of powerlessness, still has to learn to trust and to allow himself or herself to receive the available healing, no matter what happens.. Asking for a healing, we surrender to God. In the Mystery of the Anointing of the Sick, there is a strong awareness on behalf of the Church that the sick person is in the hands of God, and that God will provide the healing."
Father Meletios Webber Bread and Water, Wine and Oil.


Abortion puts couples in a terrible situation, it gives an unnatural option that God didn't necessarily intend us to have to grapple with.  God alone has the Divine wisdom to create, sustain, and control the flow of life on earth, we as humans are too limited to have this responsibility.  When we give ourselves this kind of escape hatch, we are in a sense adding complications to our mission of living here on Earth.  There are no escape hatches from life, only prayer and turning to God.  Abortion is an unfortunate reality, but one which we do not have to accept.  Yes we live in the real world, and things beyond our comprehension happen all the time, however this is why we have God in our lives in the first place, because since Adam and Eve's first mistake we have effectively demonstrated across all generations of humanity that we are simply not any good at being responsible for ourselves..

stay blessed,
habte selassie


POST OF THE MONTH!



Selam
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« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2011, 04:50:27 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end
Hey, I just dont think its a federal issue.

PP

My dear boy..Everything is a Federal issue..

Merry (Western) Christmas
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« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2011, 04:54:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

Ahem.. I would love for those 150 year old issues to have been long resolved, but America demonstrates every day that it is simply not the case, and the issues from the Civil War continue to haunt and divide Americans, even some folks on this forum have espoused silly ideas which I thought were resolved by that War but again, the issues are not exactly resolved at all! 
We have dogmatic principles that guide our decision making, but the ugly truth is that s**t happens. So how do we deal with it when blanket statements just won't do?

I would argue that we only have this crap happens kind of situation precisely because of bad legislation which has legally allowed a bad practice.  We fully understand that Orthodox absolutely rejects Euthanasia in any circumstances.  However, if in time Euthanasia becomes some kind of normal medical treatment like abortion has become, then perhaps folks with a straight face might propose apologetics for such actions.  It is only because abortion is a legal and recognized medical procedure that we are even having the discussion about its Orthodoxy.  We know that Fathers reject abortion as they do suicide, however we also know the Fathers emphasize repentance, reconciliation, and forgiveness.  In fact, we should HIGHLIGHT RIGHT HERE, THAT WHEN THE CHURCH REJECTS ABORTION IS ONLY FOR THE DEFINITION OF SIN AND CONFESSION.  We are not necessarily condemning anyone who has an abortion under any circumstances to eternal death and Hell, rather we are pointing out the definitions of which sins are appropriate and necessary for Confession, and which things are not.  Our Fathers help us to understand what is important to recognize and confess, and which things are merely our own over reactions to guilt and fear.  Not every thing is an offense necessary for Confession, and our Fathers help us with this process of understanding our sins and their effects and consequences.  So the Church is defining abortion as an absolute sin so that folks who have committed this Sin can and should know that they must take this sin to God in prayer and confession towards repentance.  They must REPENT of these sins and find God's Grace and Forgiveness.  

If abortion were simply not a medical option as it is today, this issue would effectively be silenced.  It is a MYTH and a FALLACY of the pro-abortion movements that "back-ally" abortions would rise and womens' health would be risked by outlawing abortion.  Abortion is not a necessary evil in our society, and to remove the option and close Pandora's box would stop all this debate and discussion in one sentence.  No, it would not resolve the issues of abortion to save a mother from a medical condition, but again, that is why we in the Church have the Unction of the Sick, precisely because from our weak and limited human perspective we can not fully understand the function and purpose of human illness and disease.  What separates a terminal pregnancy from any other terminal disease, risk, or condition? The only difference in this discussion is that we in this time have abortion as a quick fix, however if it were MY WIFE and MY CHILD, I simply wouldn't even want the option.  To have to make that decision is Solomon's wager, and killing the child to save the wife is splitting the baby in half with the sword.  True, you save the wife, but really, at what cost spiritually? Yes God can forgive ALL SINS, but that doesn't change the human experience of regret, of guilt, of fear..  

Quote
"Sickness in particular accentuates the fact THAT WE DO NOT CONTROL OUR OWN LIVES. If when we get sick, we respond by trying to grab even more rigid control of our lives, we are bound to fail.. We are potentially able to deepen our awareness of God, our dependence on Him, and our desire to seek His will.. In sickness we learn to depend upon others, even though we would prefer to be independent.  The fact that we learn to be dependent at all (something we usually shrug off as childlike, if not childish) HELPS US DEVELOP OR RELEARN A SENSE OF DEPENDENCE ON GOD.. The sick person, from a place of powerlessness, still has to learn to trust and to allow himself or herself to receive the available healing, no matter what happens.. Asking for a healing, we surrender to God. In the Mystery of the Anointing of the Sick, there is a strong awareness on behalf of the Church that the sick person is in the hands of God, and that God will provide the healing."
Father Meletios Webber Bread and Water, Wine and Oil.


Abortion puts couples in a terrible situation, it gives an unnatural option that God didn't necessarily intend us to have to grapple with.  God alone has the Divine wisdom to create, sustain, and control the flow of life on earth, we as humans are too limited to have this responsibility.  When we give ourselves this kind of escape hatch, we are in a sense adding complications to our mission of living here on Earth.  There are no escape hatches from life, only prayer and turning to God.  Abortion is an unfortunate reality, but one which we do not have to accept.  Yes we live in the real world, and things beyond our comprehension happen all the time, however this is why we have God in our lives in the first place, because since Adam and Eve's first mistake we have effectively demonstrated across all generations of humanity that we are simply not any good at being responsible for ourselves..

stay blessed,
habte selassie


POST OF THE MONTH!



Selam

So... If a Woman is so sick that carrying a pregnancy to full term would kill her and she wanted to have an abortion........... What...... Would.......... You ........Do  ?

Thanks
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« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2011, 05:09:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So... If a Woman is so sick that carrying a pregnancy to full term would kill her and she wanted to have an abortion........... What...... Would.......... You ........Do  ?

Thanks

The same thing I would do if I were so sick that my disease would kill me, I would have to accept the Will of God and allow nature to takes its course, hopefully seasoned by Grace.  Abortion in this instance is ethically the same as Euthanasia, and in that context, it is universally wrong.  Now of course, we have to be VERY SPECIFIC about what abortion is in this instance.  If there is a still born fetus, or a tubular pregnancy, or these kinds of complications, that is not the same as an abortion, that is not eliminating a life, that is a more standard procedure. The tubular embryo has simply no chance of living, and it very well may already be "dead" and simply be existing in the woman's body as a kind of tumor.  It is not a matter of killing any fertilized egg so much as an abortion when that fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus has implanted in the uterus. 

Now by this same logic, some folks could assert that Plan B and the like of chemical abortions are OK, that is not true.  The point of conception is when life begins, however a tubular pregnancy complicates the scenario because that embryo has either died or will subsequently die of "natural causes" within the mother's body. 

If I were really in a push comes to shove situation, I would only let such surgeries be performed on my own wife if it is clear cut that we are not terminating a life, but surgically ending a lost pregnancy.  I am not trying to be mercurial to women, but we shouldn't let emotions get the best of us here, science already has answers if we combine it with our own sense of morality.  Life begins at conception, but that doesn't automatically imply that the embryos or fetuses live FOREVER in the womb, rather, we know sometimes they die, and in that instance, a surgical removal of a dead embryo or fetus I would say is perfectly Orthodox, but to kill an embryo or fetus for the same purpose would cross that line towards abortion.  Abortion in the most literal sense simply means to end a pregnancy, and in medical terms a miscarriage or a stillbirth is still referred to as an abortion, but from the Orthodox perspective it seems that Abortion is to terminate a living embryo or fetus that is safely implanted in the uterus.

I know it is harsh, but God has been allowing women to die in childbirth for a long time now, we need to learn to accept this, as we do all illness and terminal diseases.  This is precisely why I think abortion is so evil, because it allows us like Euthanasia and suicide to feel we can opt out of God's world and God's natural rules. We know from Adam and Eve that such actions have reverberating consequences.

Lastly, I will reiterate again, this is a personal matter for couples to discuss with their own Confessors.  I am just reiterating the fact that Abortion in all circumstances is a Sin in our Church, and requires Repentance and Confession.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2011, 05:22:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So... If a Woman is so sick that carrying a pregnancy to full term would kill her and she wanted to have an abortion........... What...... Would.......... You ........Do  ?

Thanks

The same thing I would do if I were so sick that my disease would kill me, I would have to accept the Will of God and allow nature to takes its course, hopefully seasoned by Grace.  Abortion in this instance is ethically the same as Euthanasia, and in that context, it is universally wrong.  Now of course, we have to be VERY SPECIFIC about what abortion is in this instance.  If there is a still born fetus, or a tubular pregnancy, or these kinds of complications, that is not the same as an abortion, that is not eliminating a life, that is a more standard procedure. The tubular embryo has simply no chance of living, and it very well may already be "dead" and simply be existing in the woman's body as a kind of tumor.  It is not a matter of killing any fertilized egg so much as an abortion when that fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus has implanted in the uterus. 

Now by this same logic, some folks could assert that Plan B and the like of chemical abortions are OK, that is not true.  The point of conception is when life begins, however a tubular pregnancy complicates the scenario because that embryo has either died or will subsequently die of "natural causes" within the mother's body. 

If I were really in a push comes to shove situation, I would only let such surgeries be performed on my own wife if it is clear cut that we are not terminating a life, but surgically ending a lost pregnancy.  I am not trying to be mercurial to women, but we shouldn't let emotions get the best of us here, science already has answers if we combine it with our own sense of morality.  Life begins at conception, but that doesn't automatically imply that the embryos or fetuses live FOREVER in the womb, rather, we know sometimes they die, and in that instance, a surgical removal of a dead embryo or fetus I would say is perfectly Orthodox, but to kill an embryo or fetus for the same purpose would cross that line towards abortion.  Abortion in the most literal sense simply means to end a pregnancy, and in medical terms a miscarriage or a stillbirth is still referred to as an abortion, but from the Orthodox perspective it seems that Abortion is to terminate a living embryo or fetus that is safely implanted in the uterus.

I know it is harsh, but God has been allowing women to die in childbirth for a long time now, we need to learn to accept this, as we do all illness and terminal diseases.  This is precisely why I think abortion is so evil, because it allows us like Euthanasia and suicide to feel we can opt out of God's world and God's natural rules. We know from Adam and Eve that such actions have reverberating consequences.

Lastly, I will reiterate again, this is a personal matter for couples to discuss with their own Confessors.  I am just reiterating the fact that Abortion in all circumstances is a Sin in our Church, and requires Repentance and Confession.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks
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« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2011, 05:41:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So... If a Woman is so sick that carrying a pregnancy to full term would kill her and she wanted to have an abortion........... What...... Would.......... You ........Do  ?

Thanks

The same thing I would do if I were so sick that my disease would kill me, I would have to accept the Will of God and allow nature to takes its course, hopefully seasoned by Grace.  Abortion in this instance is ethically the same as Euthanasia, and in that context, it is universally wrong.  Now of course, we have to be VERY SPECIFIC about what abortion is in this instance.  If there is a still born fetus, or a tubular pregnancy, or these kinds of complications, that is not the same as an abortion, that is not eliminating a life, that is a more standard procedure. The tubular embryo has simply no chance of living, and it very well may already be "dead" and simply be existing in the woman's body as a kind of tumor.  It is not a matter of killing any fertilized egg so much as an abortion when that fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus has implanted in the uterus. 

Now by this same logic, some folks could assert that Plan B and the like of chemical abortions are OK, that is not true.  The point of conception is when life begins, however a tubular pregnancy complicates the scenario because that embryo has either died or will subsequently die of "natural causes" within the mother's body. 

If I were really in a push comes to shove situation, I would only let such surgeries be performed on my own wife if it is clear cut that we are not terminating a life, but surgically ending a lost pregnancy.  I am not trying to be mercurial to women, but we shouldn't let emotions get the best of us here, science already has answers if we combine it with our own sense of morality.  Life begins at conception, but that doesn't automatically imply that the embryos or fetuses live FOREVER in the womb, rather, we know sometimes they die, and in that instance, a surgical removal of a dead embryo or fetus I would say is perfectly Orthodox, but to kill an embryo or fetus for the same purpose would cross that line towards abortion.  Abortion in the most literal sense simply means to end a pregnancy, and in medical terms a miscarriage or a stillbirth is still referred to as an abortion, but from the Orthodox perspective it seems that Abortion is to terminate a living embryo or fetus that is safely implanted in the uterus.

I know it is harsh, but God has been allowing women to die in childbirth for a long time now, we need to learn to accept this, as we do all illness and terminal diseases.  This is precisely why I think abortion is so evil, because it allows us like Euthanasia and suicide to feel we can opt out of God's world and God's natural rules. We know from Adam and Eve that such actions have reverberating consequences.

Lastly, I will reiterate again, this is a personal matter for couples to discuss with their own Confessors.  I am just reiterating the fact that Abortion in all circumstances is a Sin in our Church, and requires Repentance and Confession.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Give thanks for the moral, ethical, and logical clarity. I hope others take heed. Bless!



Selam
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« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2011, 06:18:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2011, 06:57:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 
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« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2011, 07:07:59 PM »


http://books.google.com/books?id=hwYIdl1NO_oC&lpg=PA160&ots=3hcIbRYD1E&dq=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&f=false

I'd like to find something more specific. . .but THIS is the merciful church I've come to know and love - that yes, there is the hard. . .but there is also the compassion and mercy as Christ Himself taught us.

This is what I feel as well. I typed out part of the text in the above link that deals with ectopic pregnancies:

"We need to make an important distinction, however, among these various situations. The first instance, in which the woman's life is seriously endangered, represents a special case insofar as the woman has no real choice in the matter. (It should be noted as well that these cases, which are the only ones that can be considered truly "therapeutic", account statistically for fewer than one percent of the nearly 1.4 million abortions performed in the United States each year.) In cases of ectopic pregnancy, life-threatening eclampsia or uterine cancer, the only choice is to work to save the woman's life or else lose both her and the child she is carrying. Even in those exceptional cases where a late-term child might be saved if the woman's life is sacrificed, Orthodox tradition has held that priority should go to preserving the mother."





Thank you Opus18!!

Likewise.
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« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2011, 07:21:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 


Please provide us with cases of women being tied down and literally forced to give birth to their children. Even when abortion was illegal, nobody was ever tied down and forced to give birth. If it did happen it was quite illegal, because such an action would essentially be false imprisonment or kidnapping. So, let's please stop with the propaganda about women being "forced" to give birth if abortion were illegal.

Nobody can force somebody not to kill themselves; however, I don't think we should legalize "suicide clinics" so that people can kill themselves "safely." Nor do I think that we should be so callous and indifferent as to say, "Unless you have been suicidal yourself, you have no right to condemn the action of suicide by someone else. It's their body, and therefore you should leave the decision to them."



Selam
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« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2011, 07:26:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 


Please provide us with cases of women being tied down and literally forced to give birth to their children. Even when abortion was illegal, nobody was ever tied down and forced to give birth. If it did happen it was quite illegal, because such an action would essentially be false imprisonment or kidnapping. So, let's please stop with the propaganda about women being "forced" to give birth if abortion were illegal.

Nobody can force somebody not to kill themselves; however, I don't think we should legalize "suicide clinics" so that people can kill themselves "safely." Nor do I think that we should be so callous and indifferent as to say, "Unless you have been suicidal yourself, you have no right to condemn the action of suicide by someone else. It's their body, and therefore you should leave the decision to them."



Selam

Right you are. That's why I said it was ridiculous. Men are clearly not an equal decider.
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