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Anastasia1
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« on: December 19, 2011, 12:01:07 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 12:12:48 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 12:42:02 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
You want a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question? Without actual knowledge of a real life situation, I'm not sure anyone here could give a satisfactory answer to your question, since we have to know the details of the situation to be able to render a proper judgment. Without such knowledge, all we can offer is blanket statements, which I don't think you're looking for.

So let me offer a blanket statement that I think captures the essence of the issue more clearly. Abortion is always an evil choice.
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 12:46:33 PM »


Abortion is always the wrong choice.

Eutopic pregnancy where both the baby and the mother will lose their lives if surgical intervention is not performed. . . .and even then, Lord have mercy.

Grace is the wonder that steps in the gap of deciding between two wrongs when there is no other choice or between two rights leaving the other sinfully undone.  Thanks be to God for the Cross and the healing grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus.

Rape, incest. . . Never.  Speaking from someone who has been in both places, the child is innocent and should be protected.

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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 12:48:32 PM »

Hmm....the GOA has a reputation (undeserved) for being liberal. Let's see what they say:

Quote

Abortion
 
The Church from the very beginning of existence has sought to protect "the life in the womb" and has considered abortion as a form of murder in its theology and canons. Orthodox Christians are admonished not to encourage women to have abortions, nor to assist in the committing of abortion. Those who perform abortions and those who have sought it are doing an immoral deed, and are called to repentance.


There seems to be no indication of any extenuating circumstances here.

(corrected meaning given....the Advent purple demons were out!)
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 12:58:12 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam
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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 01:04:44 PM »

. . . . So what view should a woman take when her doctor tells her that she has a pregnancy in her fallopian tube and both she and the baby will die unless it is removed, and the baby will die irregardless?

My response was to ask (literrally begged) the doctor to transplant the baby from the tube to the uterus which cannot be done.

He told us to judge in mercy. . .this seems like a good opportunity to do just that.

What would the correct response be?
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 01:10:36 PM »

. . . . So what view should a woman take when her doctor tells her that she has a pregnancy in her fallopian tube and both she and the baby will die unless it is removed, and the baby will die irregardless?

My response was to ask (literrally begged) the doctor to transplant the baby from the tube to the uterus which cannot be done.

He told us to judge in mercy. . .this seems like a good opportunity to do just that.

What would the correct response be?
I don't know.
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 01:13:00 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

Sometimes you have nothing but wrong choices.
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2011, 01:16:22 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

( Here we go  Smiley

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2011, 01:26:45 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

( Here we go  Smiley

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police

This is probably a pretty rare instance, but that's pretty much the only time a discussion needs to take place - rare instances.  It's pretty clear cut otherwise.  First, I'm not sure where the pro-choice fits in.  I think the answer would be the same in either case.  I'd say, give her the chemo.  If she doesn't get the help she's going to die anyway.  If she dies the child will most likely die as well.  Give her the chemo, pray to God that the chemo heals her, and also that the child is spared as well.  It is in His hands at this point.

That's my opinion on the matter.  I speak with no authority either way.
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2011, 01:30:40 PM »

. . . . So what view should a woman take when her doctor tells her that she has a pregnancy in her fallopian tube and both she and the baby will die unless it is removed, and the baby will die irregardless?

My response was to ask (literrally begged) the doctor to transplant the baby from the tube to the uterus which cannot be done.

He told us to judge in mercy. . .this seems like a good opportunity to do just that.

What would the correct response be?

This woman has been through hell.  She should pray for God's mercy and for the soul of the unborn child.  I would also pray to God that He comfort her through this.  If I knew her in person I would show her whatever compassion I could.
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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2011, 01:36:04 PM »

Orthodoxy teaches us that abortion is a sin.

As to the rare 'extenuating' case, that is best left to the family, the physicians and most importantly to the priest of the faithful family and their Bishop to understand, pray regarding and deal with. For us to speculate is just that, unfair speculation which attempts to 'pigeon hole' the Orthodox position into some sort of American 'political' box.

Let's not allow the week or weeks leading the Nativity to become drawn into this never ending back and forth. Pray that you and your loved ones never find themselves in the position to need spiritual guidance on this horrible dilemma.
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« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2011, 01:38:10 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

( Here we go  Smiley

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police

This is probably a pretty rare instance, but that's pretty much the only time a discussion needs to take place - rare instances.  It's pretty clear cut otherwise.  First, I'm not sure where the pro-choice fits in.  I think the answer would be the same in either case.  I'd say, give her the chemo.  If she doesn't get the help she's going to die anyway.  If she dies the child will most likely die as well.  Give her the chemo, pray to God that the chemo heals her, and also that the child is spared as well.  It is in His hands at this point.

That's my opinion on the matter.  I speak with no authority either way.



I knew someone this happened to. She was Catholic and did have the child ( 40 years ago) and withheld having her cancer treated ( which would have killed the child). She died. Her family really suffered.

Tough one.  Maybe people should be left alone to make their own decisions.
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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2011, 02:26:40 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam
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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2011, 02:40:59 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

Sometimes you have nothing but wrong choices.

This.

In the case where the life of the mother is threatened, the choice still has to be made in the knowledge that one is choosing between two lives. There isn't a 'right' choice--and certainly not one that can be applied uniformly--only a 'bad choice' and a 'bad choice that is better than the other'. Definitely a place for anyone who doesn't have to make such choices to refrain from judgment.
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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2011, 04:02:17 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

If everyone shared the same basic assumption, that a zygote or  newly formed embryo was fully and completely a child, then that would make sense. However, seeing a zygote as a fully formed person, no different than the mother or other children is a religious belief. Not everyone shares the same religion in this country. In fact, you could go so far as to say that is is perfectly reasonable for a person  to disagree that a zygote is a fully formed person. They may be in error but it is a matter of accepting the tenants of a religion that they don't subscribe to.

So maybe people should just be left alone to make these tough decisions themselves and we should concentrate with providing alternatives and keep the cudgel in the closet.   
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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 04:49:10 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

If everyone shared the same basic assumption, that a zygote or  newly formed embryo was fully and completely a child, then that would make sense. However, seeing a zygote as a fully formed person, no different than the mother or other children is a religious belief. Not everyone shares the same religion in this country. In fact, you could go so far as to say that is is perfectly reasonable for a person  to disagree that a zygote is a fully formed person. They may be in error but it is a matter of accepting the tenants of a religion that they don't subscribe to.

So maybe people should just be left alone to make these tough decisions themselves and we should concentrate with providing alternatives and keep the cudgel in the closet.   
Understandable, and I agree. However the thing that DOES bother me is when the government (not just national but localities as well) want to prosecute for double murder when the mother is pregnant, but have no problem with abortion. Granted, these prosecutions dont usually happen, but just the fact that it is attempted by prosecutors seems to me, very much of "speaking with two sides of your mouth".

Also, what does irritate me is when some scientists (note, some, not all or most) spend more time trying to decide if a virus is truly living but not a embryo, using the same proofs of life which both fulfill to large degrees.

PP
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« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 04:50:54 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

If everyone shared the same basic assumption, that a zygote or  newly formed embryo was fully and completely a child, then that would make sense. However, seeing a zygote as a fully formed person, no different than the mother or other children is a religious belief. Not everyone shares the same religion in this country. In fact, you could go so far as to say that is is perfectly reasonable for a person  to disagree that a zygote is a fully formed person. They may be in error but it is a matter of accepting the tenants of a religion that they don't subscribe to.

So maybe people should just be left alone to make these tough decisions themselves and we should concentrate with providing alternatives and keep the cudgel in the closet.   
Understandable, and I agree. However the thing that DOES bother me is when the government (not just national but localities as well) want to prosecute for double murder when the mother is pregnant, but have no problem with abortion. Granted, these prosecutions dont usually happen, but just the fact that it is attempted by prosecutors seems to me, very much of "speaking with two sides of your mouth".

Also, what does irritate me is when some scientists (note, some, not all or most) spend more time trying to decide if a virus is truly living but not a embryo, using the same proofs of life which both fulfill to large degrees.

PP

We agree... Alert the newspapers.
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 04:54:11 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

If everyone shared the same basic assumption, that a zygote or  newly formed embryo was fully and completely a child, then that would make sense. However, seeing a zygote as a fully formed person, no different than the mother or other children is a religious belief. Not everyone shares the same religion in this country. In fact, you could go so far as to say that is is perfectly reasonable for a person  to disagree that a zygote is a fully formed person. They may be in error but it is a matter of accepting the tenants of a religion that they don't subscribe to.

So maybe people should just be left alone to make these tough decisions themselves and we should concentrate with providing alternatives and keep the cudgel in the closet.   
Understandable, and I agree. However the thing that DOES bother me is when the government (not just national but localities as well) want to prosecute for double murder when the mother is pregnant, but have no problem with abortion. Granted, these prosecutions dont usually happen, but just the fact that it is attempted by prosecutors seems to me, very much of "speaking with two sides of your mouth".

Also, what does irritate me is when some scientists (note, some, not all or most) spend more time trying to decide if a virus is truly living but not a embryo, using the same proofs of life which both fulfill to large degrees.

PP

We agree... Alert the newspapers.

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 05:24:28 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

If everyone shared the same basic assumption, that a zygote or  newly formed embryo was fully and completely a child, then that would make sense. However, seeing a zygote as a fully formed person, no different than the mother or other children is a religious belief. Not everyone shares the same religion in this country. In fact, you could go so far as to say that is is perfectly reasonable for a person  to disagree that a zygote is a fully formed person. They may be in error but it is a matter of accepting the tenants of a religion that they don't subscribe to.

So maybe people should just be left alone to make these tough decisions themselves and we should concentrate with providing alternatives and keep the cudgel in the closet.   


The problem with that is that if people are left alone to decide for themselves who is worthy of life, then horrible things inevitably happen. I am aware that we live in a secular society; however, as an Orthodox Christian, I must view these matters through the lens of the Gospel rather than through the lens of the world. I think the most logical and most Christian thing to do is simply NOT kill. If the consequences of NOT deliberately killing one person leads to the incidental death of another person, then no sin has been committed and we have left the matter in God's hands. But once we presume to decide for ourselves who deserves to live and who doesn't, then we usurp the authority of God and undoubtedly commit sin.


Selam
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2011, 05:41:07 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

If everyone shared the same basic assumption, that a zygote or  newly formed embryo was fully and completely a child, then that would make sense. However, seeing a zygote as a fully formed person, no different than the mother or other children is a religious belief. Not everyone shares the same religion in this country. In fact, you could go so far as to say that is is perfectly reasonable for a person  to disagree that a zygote is a fully formed person. They may be in error but it is a matter of accepting the tenants of a religion that they don't subscribe to.

So maybe people should just be left alone to make these tough decisions themselves and we should concentrate with providing alternatives and keep the cudgel in the closet.  
But isn't this the Faith Issues board, where we are encouraged to discuss religious beliefs, particularly those of the Orthodox Christian Church? We're not talking about religious pluralism in this country. We're talking about what is an Orthodox understanding of abortion. After all, Gebre's reply is what the OP asked for.
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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2011, 06:15:16 PM »

the life of the mother is more important, given the social  web she's already a part of.
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« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2011, 06:21:16 PM »

The problem with that is that if people are left alone to decide for themselves who is worthy of life, then horrible things inevitably happen. I am aware that we live in a secular society; however, as an Orthodox Christian, I must view these matters through the lens of the Gospel rather than through the lens of the world. I think the most logical and most Christian thing to do is simply NOT kill. If the consequences of NOT deliberately killing one person leads to the incidental death of another person, then no sin has been committed and we have left the matter in God's hands. But once we presume to decide for ourselves who deserves to live and who doesn't, then we usurp the authority of God and undoubtedly commit sin.


Selam

To clarify for my own understanding of your position: are you saying that in no possible circumstance, including an ectopic pregnancy in which the fetus has no chance of survival, do you consider it morally permissible to abort the pregnancy to save the life of the mother?
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« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2011, 06:35:55 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

If everyone shared the same basic assumption, that a zygote or  newly formed embryo was fully and completely a child, then that would make sense. However, seeing a zygote as a fully formed person, no different than the mother or other children is a religious belief. Not everyone shares the same religion in this country. In fact, you could go so far as to say that is is perfectly reasonable for a person  to disagree that a zygote is a fully formed person. They may be in error but it is a matter of accepting the tenants of a religion that they don't subscribe to.

So maybe people should just be left alone to make these tough decisions themselves and we should concentrate with providing alternatives and keep the cudgel in the closet.   


The problem with that is that if people are left alone to decide for themselves who is worthy of life, then horrible things inevitably happen. I am aware that we live in a secular society; however, as an Orthodox Christian, I must view these matters through the lens of the Gospel rather than through the lens of the world. I think the most logical and most Christian thing to do is simply NOT kill. If the consequences of NOT deliberately killing one person leads to the incidental death of another person, then no sin has been committed and we have left the matter in God's hands. But once we presume to decide for ourselves who deserves to live and who doesn't, then we usurp the authority of God and undoubtedly commit sin.


Selam


Then the Pro-Life movement should have nothing to do with Politics or passing laws or repealing laws. Or are these principles malleable? Who are you to decide for other people?
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« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2011, 06:43:20 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

If everyone shared the same basic assumption, that a zygote or  newly formed embryo was fully and completely a child, then that would make sense. However, seeing a zygote as a fully formed person, no different than the mother or other children is a religious belief. Not everyone shares the same religion in this country. In fact, you could go so far as to say that is is perfectly reasonable for a person  to disagree that a zygote is a fully formed person. They may be in error but it is a matter of accepting the tenants of a religion that they don't subscribe to.

So maybe people should just be left alone to make these tough decisions themselves and we should concentrate with providing alternatives and keep the cudgel in the closet.   


The problem with that is that if people are left alone to decide for themselves who is worthy of life, then horrible things inevitably happen. I am aware that we live in a secular society; however, as an Orthodox Christian, I must view these matters through the lens of the Gospel rather than through the lens of the world. I think the most logical and most Christian thing to do is simply NOT kill. If the consequences of NOT deliberately killing one person leads to the incidental death of another person, then no sin has been committed and we have left the matter in God's hands. But once we presume to decide for ourselves who deserves to live and who doesn't, then we usurp the authority of God and undoubtedly commit sin.


Selam

Gebre, in your analogy of the mother with three children and only enough food for her plus two - I would say reduce rations for all four and pray that God delivers them from that situation.  Hopefully a decent Samaritan would come along and deal with the situation.  Unless she is plane wrecked in the Andes, someone, somewhere should be available to help her.  If she takes no food for herself none of the children will survive after she succumbs to starvation, so she should certainly not risk her own survival.  Basically, fight until you are dead.  Then it really doesn't matter anymore.

In the case Marc brought up my suggestion was that they do what will save the most lives.  If you are given the choice of the mother living and the child dying or both of them dying, you should always opt for saving the life of one over the life of none.  To do otherwise is not Christian, it is callous.
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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2011, 06:54:28 PM »

Some people should not speak on matters unless they have been through something like this. I'll leave you with this it is a sin to kill one self knowingly.  
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« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2011, 07:23:47 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
So, back to the OP, since it seems a lot of us would rather talk about anything but...

Drawing from the principles we are taught as Orthodox Christians--after all, this is the Faith Issues board, so I think it safe to assume the OP wants specifically Orthodox answers--is there ever a situation where abortion may not be the wrong choice?
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« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2011, 07:34:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Some people should not speak on matters unless they have been through something like this. I'll leave you with this it is a sin to kill one self knowingly.  
True, but you should be careful in assuming exactly who has what experiences with what then, folks may  have experiences with this that they are uncomfortable discussing directly, but still have relevant advice to share.  This is not  my confession by the way, my first-hand experiences are with miscarriage, not abortion, but considering the sensitivity of this issue, we shouldn't assume others who are speaking may not have formed their opinions strictly from speculation.


I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?

No, abortion is simply never warranted, under absolutely ANY circumstances, period.  If there is a complication of health, either to the baby or the mother, these are matters which we as Christians need to take to God to understand.  The Church has instituted the Divine Mystery of the Unction of the Sick entirely to demonstrate this fact, that our health is a matter beyond our control sometimes, and is a tangible expression of the overpowering Will of God in our lives.  What God wills, we can not change.  If God wills our children born or unborn to have health problems, that is that. If God wills mothers to die during delivery that is. We can do things in a reactionary way to help these problems, such as improving prenatal and neonatal medical care, but a preemptive strike abortion is a cop-out, like euthanasia in the face of a terminal disease.  God has given us the terminal diseases to learn something about ourselves and our relationship with Him, and to simply cut out early and kill one's self is to avoid the task given by God just as Jonah fled and found himself in the belly of the fish.  We must turn to God in these matters, all the more.  Further, abortion is a silly waste of time.  Some studies show that as many as 9 out of 10 women who get abortions express deep regret and sometimes have long term  symptoms of guilt and depression, and this is a biological matter of the hormones and neurochemistry of human pregnancy, let alone the psychological and social factors.  

Quote
"Sickness in particular accentuates the fact THAT WE DO NOT CONTROL OUR OWN LIVES. If when we get sick, we respond by trying to grab even more rigid control of our lives, we are bound to fail.. We are potentially able to deepen our awareness of God, our dependence on Him, and our desire to seek His will.. In sickness we learn to depend upon others, even though we would prefer to be independent.  The fact that we learn to be dependent at all (something we usually shrug off as childlike, if not childish) HELPS US DEVELOP OR RELEARN A SENSE OF DEPENDENCE ON GOD.. The sick person, from a place of powerlessness, still has to learn to trust and to allow himself or herself to receive the available healing, no matter what happens.. Asking for a healing, we surrender to God. In the Mystery of the Anointing of the Sick, there is a strong awareness on behalf of the Church that the sick person is in the hands of God, and that God will provide the healing."
Father Meletios Webber Bread and Water, Wine and Oil.

An abortion for medical reasons is an attempt to trump God's message through the illness, and attempt at human beings to more rigidly grab towards control, and as Father Meletios mentioned, are often times more doomed to fail.  Illness teaches us our dependence on God, and so if a woman or her unborn child are ill or sick, then it is the same.  Even if it is just an abortion out of "convenience" or fear of the unknown, that is the same cop-out.  God gives us life, God gives us pregnancy (this is a fact because a lot of us have had a lot of sex in our lives and yet do not have children from every single sexual encounter, so we have firsthand experience as to God's synergy in action with our sexuality to bring new life into our world).  Pregnancy is always a challenge, physically, emotionally, economically, and it always has been.  In this regard, even a healthy pregnancy is similar to illness in that it teaches human beings their dependence on God.  Who will provide the food and resources? Who will ensure the pregnancy and birth are healthy without complications? Only God alone can really help us through this, and guide our lives in His Will.  If God has sent us the life in our wombs, then God will also send the increase and success.  Further, miscarriage is the opposite side of that coin, showing that God does not always bless our sexual unions, even those which cause a pregnancy, to bring new life into His world.

The moral, it is ALWAYS God's world, and we as humans need to learn in every breath and step to accept, embrace, and endure this reality-check.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2011, 08:23:08 PM »

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

And what if she has enough food for three people but has four children?  Supposing it is literally impossible for her to gain any more food, she must decide to starve one of her children and herself, if the other three children are to live.  This would be analogous to the situation where a mother and her child are going to die if an abortion isn't performed.  It's a horrible situation, but one that does happen from time to time. 
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« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2011, 08:28:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

An analogy - albeit an imperfect one - may help here. If a mother has three children and there is only enough food to feed three people, what is the Christian course of action? Should the mother kill one of her children in order to preserve her own life and the lives of the other two children? After all, if the mother dies of starvation, who will take care of her kids?

I doubt if anyone here would think that such a "solution" would in any way be justifiable. But somehow, when it comes to abortion, we start talking about "extinuating circumstances" etc. Either the unborn child is a human life or it is not. And the Church has always been clear that the lives of the unborn deserve to be protected as much as the lives of the born.

These situations are certainly not easy, but we must not determine our course of action regarding human life based upon its difficulty. Miracles and grace are revealed in times of crisis, trial, and hardship. And during this Nativity season, we should be especially mindful of this.


Selam

And what if she has enough food for three people but has four children?  Supposing it is literally impossible for her to gain any more food, she must decide to starve one of her children and herself, if the other three children are to live.  This would be analogous to the situation where a mother and her child are going to die if an abortion isn't performed.  It's a horrible situation, but one that does happen from time to time. 
Letting a child starve to death and actually performing the coup de grace are two entirely different concepts aren't they?  We have the example of Moses' mother, what if she had killed Moses out of mercy? She wouldn't have seen the miracle God had intended.. In this way, there is simply never an excuse for an abortion, and further, we as human beings have been living on this earth for an estimated 250,000 years if not longer, and yet we have had these kinds of medical abortions for what, give or take a hundred years? So clearly we as a species do fine and well without the option on the table, and we would be just as fine without it in the future Wink

Again, as I pointed out with the Unction of the Sick, Orthodox teaches us our absolute dependence on God, abortion and its evil sister euthanasia only teach us to continue in vain to try and depend upon our own-selves.



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2011, 09:11:32 PM »

I been through this first hand and you don't really get a say in the matter. They push you into the hallway the doc goes to work you have no clue whats going on in the room. The Doc came out and said your wife is recovering fine we had to take the baby cause it was killing her. Now the doc didn't waste a matter of seconds between life or death to stop and ask me what I wanted and my ex-wife sure wasn't awake to be asked at all hell she didn't even know when she woke up that they took the baby I had to tell her.

In these matters of seconds there is no time to think or worry about some "silly" idea on what some church goers might think and say cause one normally starts going right to the source of all life himself God praying and begging for His help. Come to think of it in most of these times in our lives if one was to be honest with there self all religious walls crumble at this point an time most prayers and begging go right to God to bad the world couldn't be like that all the time might be a much better and peaceful place to live.    

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« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2011, 09:31:38 PM »

the life of the mother is more important, given the social  web she's already a part of.
Unless you are most Catholics I have discussed this with. You can do anything but try to intentionally kill the baby (to save the mother) but you can do things to save the mother than end up killing the baby. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what this means.
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« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2011, 09:41:55 PM »

the life of the mother is more important, given the social  web she's already a part of.
Unless you are most Catholics I have discussed this with. You can do anything but try to intentionally kill the baby (to save the mother) but you can do things to save the mother than end up killing the baby. I'm still trying to wrap my head around what this means.
It means that whether it's fair or not, most of us don't equate an unborn child with a viable human. I think that should make sense to most people, even if they don't agree.

Sometimes to me it seems like the life of the unborn child is elevated over the life of the mother. This is a big can of worms to open, so I shall leave it there. I'm not quite sure how to tackle that yet.

As someone who is generally against abortion, I will admit that while I can wrap my mind around the pro-life position in theory, if I had to choose in a life-or-death, I already feel like I know what the choice will be. Probably the same choice some of us may make if we are in a survival situation, in the military, etc. etc. To be a saint and/or a martyr is not easy. I pray that if I am in that position, ever, whether in childbirth, war, in a crisis situation, etc., that I will make the right choice, whatever it may be.
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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2011, 09:50:31 PM »

My answer is probably a bit like splitting hairs, but I believe it to be true. It's always wrong. But if removing a part of the woman's body (not the baby his or her self), or some other surgery (not abortion) saves the mother's life but causes the baby to die, I think it is morally acceptable. In this case, an action that saves the mother's life will likely cause the baby to die, but it is not a certainty and it's not an abortion. But I pray to God nobody ever has to make that call.
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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2011, 11:33:00 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
So, back to the OP, since it seems a lot of us would rather talk about anything but...

Drawing from the principles we are taught as Orthodox Christians--after all, this is the Faith Issues board, so I think it safe to assume the OP wants specifically Orthodox answers--is there ever a situation where abortion may not be the wrong choice?

Of course. When the alternative is a  bigger sin.
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2011, 12:11:27 AM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
So, back to the OP, since it seems a lot of us would rather talk about anything but...

Drawing from the principles we are taught as Orthodox Christians--after all, this is the Faith Issues board, so I think it safe to assume the OP wants specifically Orthodox answers--is there ever a situation where abortion may not be the wrong choice?

Of course. When the alternative is a  bigger sin.
What would be a bigger sin?

Is some sin really bigger than other?
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2011, 02:00:26 AM »

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police


Well what if I step outside tomorrow and get eaten by a giraffe?


What-if-ville is a very unhealthy place to live my friend.
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2011, 03:08:44 AM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

( Here we go  Smiley

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police
Has this scenario actually happened, or are you making it up for rhetorical purposes?
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2011, 09:29:15 AM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?

Without giving a direct answer, I would say part of coming to any conclusion should be to recognize the child as a living human person made in the image and likeness of God. We believe that the Word became flesh, ask yourself at what point during Mary's pregnancy this happened, and then you should have a good perspective on what is involved in terminating the pregnancy and ending that human life.
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2011, 09:55:19 AM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

( Here we go  Smiley

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police
Has this scenario actually happened, or are you making it up for rhetorical purposes?

Reply #13.
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2011, 10:07:59 AM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
Yes, the Orthodox Church has been very clear about allwoing abortion to save the life of the mother.  But it is rare today.
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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2011, 10:29:11 AM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

Sometimes you have nothing but wrong choices.
But in such situations one is morally obligated to go with the lesser of two evils.
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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2011, 10:51:24 AM »

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police


Well what if I step outside tomorrow and get eaten by a giraffe?


What-if-ville is a very unhealthy place to live my friend.

 It's not at all uncommon for a Women to have a condition that if she carries to term will kill her. Cancer being the most obvious. if she gets treated right away, the baby will abort. If she doesnt she will not survive... I am sure there are other situations as well, hemophilia for example, Women with certain heart conditions...etc.
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« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2011, 11:22:22 AM »

Ive had this discussion with several of my friends too.  I am married, but my friends at the time were not.  The position I took (at that time anyway) was that I would save the life of my wife if we were ever, God forbid, put in that horrific situation.  Ive always been as pro-life as they come, but at the same time I feel that I have a responsibility to take care of my wife.  They disagreed, but they also werent newly weds like I was so they didnt really understand my position.

I agree with what was said earlier that there may not be a 100% right thing to do in this situation.  I cant even imagine dealing with that and I pray for anyone who ever has/will. 
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« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2011, 01:56:15 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.

( Here we go  Smiley

How about a Woman who is Pro-Choice who has a condition that will kill her. Perhaps she has cancer and needs kemo right away. She already has two children and a hubby who needs her. She is just days pregnant. Would you force her to have the child if you could?  police
Has this scenario actually happened, or are you making it up for rhetorical purposes?

Reply #13.
Oh, okay. I forgot that I had seen that post. Thanks.
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« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2011, 02:45:04 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?

Without giving a direct answer, I would say part of coming to any conclusion should be to recognize the child as a living human person made in the image and likeness of God. We believe that the Word became flesh, ask yourself at what point during Mary's pregnancy this happened, and then you should have a good perspective on what is involved in terminating the pregnancy and ending that human life.


Excellent point.



Selam
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« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2011, 03:39:36 PM »

It's not at all uncommon for a Women to have a condition that if she carries to term will kill her. Cancer being the most obvious. if she gets treated right away, the baby will abort. If she doesnt she will not survive... I am sure there are other situations as well, hemophilia for example, Women with certain heart conditions...etc.

Do you have a source for the assertion that it is not at all uncommon?  What incidence would you describe as common versus uncommon?
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« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2011, 03:41:32 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
Yes, the Orthodox Church has been very clear about allwoing abortion to save the life of the mother.  But it is rare today.

Thank you for this, you answered what was going to be my next question.
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« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2011, 04:12:43 PM »

It's not at all uncommon for a Women to have a condition that if she carries to term will kill her. Cancer being the most obvious. if she gets treated right away, the baby will abort. If she doesnt she will not survive... I am sure there are other situations as well, hemophilia for example, Women with certain heart conditions...etc.

Do you have a source for the assertion that it is not at all uncommon?  What incidence would you describe as common versus uncommon?

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

You're question is a Red Herring. A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  
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« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2011, 04:24:18 PM »

I'm having a discussion with someone on this. Is there any situation where abortion is ever not the wrong choice, such as if needed to save the mother's life (as rare as this is)?
Yes, the Orthodox Church has been very clear about allwoing abortion to save the life of the mother.  But it is rare today.

Thank you for this, you answered what was going to be my next question.

How do you know it's "Rare"? People often get abortions on the down low. But if you look at the tremendous numbers of Women with Cancer, Heart Disease and Diabetes ( tens of millions) then simple math should tell you that a percentage will turn up pregnant.
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« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2011, 04:35:19 PM »

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

So why did you bring it up?

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

So you have no source.  Thanks.

A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  

You are the person who felt it necessary to comment on the fact that you think it is not uncommon, so I don't understand why you are now asserting that it doesn't matter how common or uncommon it is.

While the incidence of the problem does not change my personal belief regarding this issue, I can see how it might for others.  I can see it influencing people either way, actually.
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« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2011, 04:36:59 PM »

How do you know it's "Rare"? People often get abortions on the down low. But if you look at the tremendous numbers of Women with Cancer, Heart Disease and Diabetes ( tens of millions) then simple math should tell you that a percentage will turn up pregnant.

I did not say that it's rare.  I just asked how you knew it's not uncommon.
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« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2011, 04:37:05 PM »

http://oca.org/resource-handbook/familylife/october-pregnancy-and-infant-loss-awareness-month

Quote
It my belief that both the Gospel and the Orthodox Church hold that life begins at conception—that is, the fertilization of the ovum by the sperm. God knows the name and age of each person from their mother’s womb, is what we pray during the Liturgy of St. Basil. We must therefore recognize that pregnancy loss—miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy or stillbirth—all result in the death of a human being, a baby, a Child of God. Parents who were anticipating life are now confronted with death. These deaths result in millions of parents and families grieving.

And I cannot quote this, as there is no copy and paste feature - but the below link is a quote from The sacred gift of life: Orthodox Christianity and bioethics By John Breck.  I honestly do not know if this is the Church's stance toward a ectopic (heh. . . I learned how to spell the word doing this!) pregnancies - but it seems that ectopc pregnancies are seen the same as a miscarriage - a very grievous loss.   I suggest reading through to at least page 163 for the whole content of the Church's stance.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hwYIdl1NO_oC&lpg=PA160&ots=3hcIbRYD1E&dq=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&f=false

I'd like to find something more specific. . .but THIS is the merciful church I've come to know and love - that yes, there is the hard. . .but there is also the compassion and mercy as Christ Himself taught us.

We are to walk according to our strength and it is in our weakness that His work in us is made strong.  I know I've survived three pregnancies in congestive heart failure.  They are here, and so am I. . . I just didn't feel like I was ever in any danger. . . **shrugs** Sometimes peace is weird like that.  Smiley

Any who - the links might offer some food for thought.  I don't think I'm inclined to argue. . .in my life - God is and He has me.  And for that I'm forever grateful.

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« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2011, 04:58:51 PM »

It's not at all uncommon for a Women to have a condition that if she carries to term will kill her. Cancer being the most obvious. if she gets treated right away, the baby will abort. If she doesnt she will not survive... I am sure there are other situations as well, hemophilia for example, Women with certain heart conditions...etc.

Do you have a source for the assertion that it is not at all uncommon?  What incidence would you describe as common versus uncommon?

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

You're question is a Red Herring. A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  


Hemophilia :zero women. The woman passes the defective gene to the male progeny - not all of them, but some. Just to clarify.  Leukemia would be a better example.
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« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2011, 06:03:11 PM »

oops ignore - I is confused.  **blushes**
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« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2011, 06:47:16 PM »

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

So why did you bring it up?

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

So you have no source.  Thanks.

A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  

You are the person who felt it necessary to comment on the fact that you think it is not uncommon, so I don't understand why you are now asserting that it doesn't matter how common or uncommon it is.

While the incidence of the problem does not change my personal belief regarding this issue, I can see how it might for others.  I can see it influencing people either way, actually.

Do you truly need exact numbers in order for you to understand this or are you just trying to divert the conversation?

How do you suppose numbers could be collected? I'm at a loss to know how many abortions are due to medical necessity. I doubt anyone collects that sort of information. If you have some insight that I am missing please fill us in.

However, even a person with a rudimentary understanding of large numbers can look at the millions upon millions of Women with life threatening illnesses and postulate that this situation must be common enough to pose a dilemma.

Lets err on the side of low numbers. If there are only 5 Million Women with life threatening diseases ( Heart Disease, Cancer, Severe Diabetes) and just 1% get pregnant..  That's 50,000 Women. If .05 get pregnant, that's 25,000 Women.

Good enough?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/red%20herring

Definition of RED HERRING
1: a herring cured by salting and slow smoking to a dark brown color

2[from the practice of drawing a red herring across a trail to confuse hunting dogs] : something that distracts attention from the real issue
See red herring defined for English-language learners »
See red herring defined for kids »
Examples of RED HERRING

    The argument is a red herring. It actually has nothing to do with the issue.
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« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2011, 06:59:50 PM »

We have dogmatic principles that guide our decision making, but the ugly truth is that s**t happens. So how do we deal with it when blanket statements just won't do?
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« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2011, 07:05:30 PM »

Turns out the issue is before congress right now.. Must be a common enough situation to deserve this much attention:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/11/protect-life-act-anti-abortion-bill_n_1005937.html

WASHINGTON -- The House is scheduled to vote this week on a new bill that would allow federally-funded hospitals that oppose abortions to refuse to perform the procedure, even in cases where a woman would die without it
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« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2011, 07:09:15 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.
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« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2011, 07:20:09 PM »

I have a question. What is the stance of the Orthodox Church in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, wherein the embryo lodges in the Fallopian tubes and results in heavy hemorrhage, and as far as I've heard always leads to either a miscarriage or death? I am not pro-abortion. I just wanted to know if a person is allowed to do anything when there may be a threat to the life of the mother, in this case. Thank you.
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« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2011, 07:24:46 PM »

I have a question. What is the stance of the Orthodox Church in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, wherein the embryo lodges in the Fallopian tubes and results in heavy hemorrhage, and as far as I've heard always leads to either a miscarriage or death? I am not pro-abortion. I just wanted to know if a person is allowed to do anything when there may be a threat to the life of the mother, in this case. Thank you.

 See reply #53 especially the second link.
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« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2011, 07:29:49 PM »

Is that really necessary for you to plumb the depths of the Moral point? I bet not.

So why did you bring it up?

I have no idea how many women with cancer turn up pregnant and need chemo or radiation. On the face of it, there are lots of women with cancer who need treatment. I don't know how many turn up pregnant

There are lots of Women with heart disease. I am certain a percentage have hearts too weak to carry a baby to term.

I am certain there are lots of Women with very serious  diabetes and all kinds of related maladies who cant carry to term

I dont know how many females have hemophilia or all manner of blood disease who turn up pregnant.

So you have no source.  Thanks.

A reasonably prudent person can understand Prima Facia that this can and does happen and is situation that poses a problem for people who foist their moral certainty onto others.  

You are the person who felt it necessary to comment on the fact that you think it is not uncommon, so I don't understand why you are now asserting that it doesn't matter how common or uncommon it is.

While the incidence of the problem does not change my personal belief regarding this issue, I can see how it might for others.  I can see it influencing people either way, actually.

Do you truly need exact numbers in order for you to understand this or are you just trying to divert the conversation?

How do you suppose numbers could be collected? I'm at a loss to know how many abortions are due to medical necessity. I doubt anyone collects that sort of information. If you have some insight that I am missing please fill us in.

However, even a person with a rudimentary understanding of large numbers can look at the millions upon millions of Women with life threatening illnesses and postulate that this situation must be common enough to pose a dilemma.

Lets err on the side of low numbers. If there are only 5 Million Women with life threatening diseases ( Heart Disease, Cancer, Severe Diabetes) and just 1% get pregnant..  That's 50,000 Women. If .05 get pregnant, that's 25,000 Women.

Good enough?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/red%20herring

Definition of RED HERRING
1: a herring cured by salting and slow smoking to a dark brown color

2[from the practice of drawing a red herring across a trail to confuse hunting dogs] : something that distracts attention from the real issue
See red herring defined for English-language learners »
See red herring defined for kids »
Examples of RED HERRING

    The argument is a red herring. It actually has nothing to do with the issue.

You seem to be under the impression that we are having an argument.

We are not.

I asked you to define your terms and source your assertion.  I have never said or even implied that I disagree with you.  I only wanted to know where you were coming from with your statement.  I have no idea why you are reacting so stridently.

I agree that the issue has the potential to derail the thread and is at best marginally important to the meat of the conversation, and as such I am happy to let it go.
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« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2011, 07:43:11 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.
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« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2011, 09:54:30 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?
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« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2011, 10:04:27 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?
To discuss the Church's consistent teaching that abortion is a grave sin against the sanctity of human life is in keeping with the purpose of this Faith Issues board. To debate whether we should make abortion illegal is a discussion of proposed legislation that belongs only on the Politics board. Any more discussion of this political tangent will be moved to Politics, and formal warnings will be issued.
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« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2011, 10:16:23 PM »

I don't think what I'm about to say will violate Peter's direction above but please forgive me for any transgression.

Just for clarity, I meant homicide in the sense of "person-killing", not "murder". Not all person-killing is unlawful. Murder, manslaughter and any other form of killing with lawful excuse all constitute homicide.

Marc, if this discussion continues elsewhere I'd be glad to share my thoughts on the topic.
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« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2011, 10:39:38 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?


"The woman who purposely destroys her unborn child is guilty of murder. With us there is no nice enquiry as to its being formed or unformed. In this case it is not only the being about to be born who is vindicated, but the woman in her attack upon herself; because in most cases women who make such attempts die. The destruction of the embryo is an additional crime, a second murder, at all events if we regard it as done with intent. The punishment, however, of these women should not be for life, but for the term of ten years. And let their treatment depend not on mere lapse of time, but on the character of their repentance."

+St. Basil the Great+ [Letter 182]



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« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2011, 10:11:20 AM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?

Marc, I don't think it is so black and white.  There are plenty of reasons why someone would kill and the Church seems to deal with them differently.  A soldier who kills is not the same as a mercenary, thug, or assassin.  A person who defends their home and family by force of arms is not the same as a serial killer.  I think it stands to reason that a doctor who kills a baby in the effort to save a mother's life is not the same as a doctor who callously kills a baby so that the mother can go out and party again the next day.  How is the first doctor any different from one who performs surgery on someone that ends up killing them, supposing they were dead anyway without the surgery?  How is the latter any different from a paid assassin who kills a man's wife so that he can marry another?  I think the Church, and more importantly God who knows each man's heart, is able to discern intent and deal with the issue accordingly.
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« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2011, 10:54:50 AM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?

Marc, I don't think it is so black and white.  There are plenty of reasons why someone would kill and the Church seems to deal with them differently.  A soldier who kills is not the same as a mercenary, thug, or assassin.  A person who defends their home and family by force of arms is not the same as a serial killer.  I think it stands to reason that a doctor who kills a baby in the effort to save a mother's life is not the same as a doctor who callously kills a baby so that the mother can go out and party again the next day.  How is the first doctor any different from one who performs surgery on someone that ends up killing them, supposing they were dead anyway without the surgery?  How is the latter any different from a paid assassin who kills a man's wife so that he can marry another?  I think the Church, and more importantly God who knows each man's heart, is able to discern intent and deal with the issue accordingly.

We are in complete agreement.

 Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping.
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« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2011, 11:46:39 AM »


http://books.google.com/books?id=hwYIdl1NO_oC&lpg=PA160&ots=3hcIbRYD1E&dq=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&f=false

I'd like to find something more specific. . .but THIS is the merciful church I've come to know and love - that yes, there is the hard. . .but there is also the compassion and mercy as Christ Himself taught us.

This is what I feel as well. I typed out part of the text in the above link that deals with ectopic pregnancies:

"We need to make an important distinction, however, among these various situations. The first instance, in which the woman's life is seriously endangered, represents a special case insofar as the woman has no real choice in the matter. (It should be noted as well that these cases, which are the only ones that can be considered truly "therapeutic", account statistically for fewer than one percent of the nearly 1.4 million abortions performed in the United States each year.) In cases of ectopic pregnancy, life-threatening eclampsia or uterine cancer, the only choice is to work to save the woman's life or else lose both her and the child she is carrying. Even in those exceptional cases where a late-term child might be saved if the woman's life is sacrificed, Orthodox tradition has held that priority should go to preserving the mother."



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« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2011, 12:02:33 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP
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« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2011, 12:06:34 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end
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« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2011, 12:09:35 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end
Hey, I just dont think its a federal issue.

PP
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« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2011, 12:35:12 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

I find your response somewhat rude... but I have to wonder what is says about me that I was thinking the same thing...   Cheesy

Don't worry PP, I'm still on your side!   Wink



Obscenity replaced with something more acceptable for the public forum  -PtA
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« Reply #75 on: December 21, 2011, 12:44:25 PM »

Forgive me for being dismissive if I am being so, but I just don't understand these "arguments from hard cases" in respect of abortion.

As far as I can tell, abortion is just like any other killing of a human being.

In some circumstances it is legally justifiable. In no circumstances is it a choice to be lauded or celebrated; only mourned.

Like any other act of homicide, abortion requires a pastoral response appropriate to the circumstances.

The arguments from hard cases pertain to those who would seek to make it legally impermissible in all cases.

FWIW, I agree with you entirely.

That's not even close to true, but if it makes you feel better........

So if you had your way and Abortion was legally considered "Homicide" would you force women who will die if they carry to term to sacrifice themselves..? And exactly how would you do this?  Paint me that picture please.

And taking the next logical step, if you have abortion declared Homicide would you have Women who have abortions executed? After all that is the penalty for premeditated murder... Right? Wrong? Maybe? Don't know?

Marc, I don't think it is so black and white.  There are plenty of reasons why someone would kill and the Church seems to deal with them differently.  A soldier who kills is not the same as a mercenary, thug, or assassin.  A person who defends their home and family by force of arms is not the same as a serial killer.  I think it stands to reason that a doctor who kills a baby in the effort to save a mother's life is not the same as a doctor who callously kills a baby so that the mother can go out and party again the next day.  How is the first doctor any different from one who performs surgery on someone that ends up killing them, supposing they were dead anyway without the surgery?  How is the latter any different from a paid assassin who kills a man's wife so that he can marry another?  I think the Church, and more importantly God who knows each man's heart, is able to discern intent and deal with the issue accordingly.

We are in complete agreement.

 Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping.

I would say we are mostly in agreement, but not entirely.  For me the intent is what matters, not the time frame.  My issue with the time frame is, as others have brought up, Christ was fully God and fully Man from conception.  If Christ was fully Man, and he was there from conception, then it stands to reason that all men are alive from conception.  Saying otherwise would imply that Christ was not fully man, thus heresy (Monophosyitism?).  Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I can correct this if I have erred.   
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« Reply #76 on: December 21, 2011, 01:54:45 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

I find your response somewhat rude... but I have to wonder what is says about me that I was thinking the same thing...   Cheesy

Don't worry PP, I'm still on your side!   Wink



Obscenity replaced with something more acceptable for the public forum  -PtA
Thanks vam Smiley

I knew the agree-train I've been riding with Marc was gonna dreail sooner or later.

PP
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« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2011, 02:16:06 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

Ahem.. I would love for those 150 year old issues to have been long resolved, but America demonstrates every day that it is simply not the case, and the issues from the Civil War continue to haunt and divide Americans, even some folks on this forum have espoused silly ideas which I thought were resolved by that War but again, the issues are not exactly resolved at all! 
We have dogmatic principles that guide our decision making, but the ugly truth is that s**t happens. So how do we deal with it when blanket statements just won't do?

I would argue that we only have this crap happens kind of situation precisely because of bad legislation which has legally allowed a bad practice.  We fully understand that Orthodox absolutely rejects Euthanasia in any circumstances.  However, if in time Euthanasia becomes some kind of normal medical treatment like abortion has become, then perhaps folks with a straight face might propose apologetics for such actions.  It is only because abortion is a legal and recognized medical procedure that we are even having the discussion about its Orthodoxy.  We know that Fathers reject abortion as they do suicide, however we also know the Fathers emphasize repentance, reconciliation, and forgiveness.  In fact, we should HIGHLIGHT RIGHT HERE, THAT WHEN THE CHURCH REJECTS ABORTION IS ONLY FOR THE DEFINITION OF SIN AND CONFESSION.  We are not necessarily condemning anyone who has an abortion under any circumstances to eternal death and Hell, rather we are pointing out the definitions of which sins are appropriate and necessary for Confession, and which things are not.  Our Fathers help us to understand what is important to recognize and confess, and which things are merely our own over reactions to guilt and fear.  Not every thing is an offense necessary for Confession, and our Fathers help us with this process of understanding our sins and their effects and consequences.  So the Church is defining abortion as an absolute sin so that folks who have committed this Sin can and should know that they must take this sin to God in prayer and confession towards repentance.  They must REPENT of these sins and find God's Grace and Forgiveness.  

If abortion were simply not a medical option as it is today, this issue would effectively be silenced.  It is a MYTH and a FALLACY of the pro-abortion movements that "back-ally" abortions would rise and womens' health would be risked by outlawing abortion.  Abortion is not a necessary evil in our society, and to remove the option and close Pandora's box would stop all this debate and discussion in one sentence.  No, it would not resolve the issues of abortion to save a mother from a medical condition, but again, that is why we in the Church have the Unction of the Sick, precisely because from our weak and limited human perspective we can not fully understand the function and purpose of human illness and disease.  What separates a terminal pregnancy from any other terminal disease, risk, or condition? The only difference in this discussion is that we in this time have abortion as a quick fix, however if it were MY WIFE and MY CHILD, I simply wouldn't even want the option.  To have to make that decision is Solomon's wager, and killing the child to save the wife is splitting the baby in half with the sword.  True, you save the wife, but really, at what cost spiritually? Yes God can forgive ALL SINS, but that doesn't change the human experience of regret, of guilt, of fear..  

Quote
"Sickness in particular accentuates the fact THAT WE DO NOT CONTROL OUR OWN LIVES. If when we get sick, we respond by trying to grab even more rigid control of our lives, we are bound to fail.. We are potentially able to deepen our awareness of God, our dependence on Him, and our desire to seek His will.. In sickness we learn to depend upon others, even though we would prefer to be independent.  The fact that we learn to be dependent at all (something we usually shrug off as childlike, if not childish) HELPS US DEVELOP OR RELEARN A SENSE OF DEPENDENCE ON GOD.. The sick person, from a place of powerlessness, still has to learn to trust and to allow himself or herself to receive the available healing, no matter what happens.. Asking for a healing, we surrender to God. In the Mystery of the Anointing of the Sick, there is a strong awareness on behalf of the Church that the sick person is in the hands of God, and that God will provide the healing."
Father Meletios Webber Bread and Water, Wine and Oil.


Abortion puts couples in a terrible situation, it gives an unnatural option that God didn't necessarily intend us to have to grapple with.  God alone has the Divine wisdom to create, sustain, and control the flow of life on earth, we as humans are too limited to have this responsibility.  When we give ourselves this kind of escape hatch, we are in a sense adding complications to our mission of living here on Earth.  There are no escape hatches from life, only prayer and turning to God.  Abortion is an unfortunate reality, but one which we do not have to accept.  Yes we live in the real world, and things beyond our comprehension happen all the time, however this is why we have God in our lives in the first place, because since Adam and Eve's first mistake we have effectively demonstrated across all generations of humanity that we are simply not any good at being responsible for ourselves..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2011, 02:16:44 PM »


http://books.google.com/books?id=hwYIdl1NO_oC&lpg=PA160&ots=3hcIbRYD1E&dq=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&f=false

I'd like to find something more specific. . .but THIS is the merciful church I've come to know and love - that yes, there is the hard. . .but there is also the compassion and mercy as Christ Himself taught us.

This is what I feel as well. I typed out part of the text in the above link that deals with ectopic pregnancies:

"We need to make an important distinction, however, among these various situations. The first instance, in which the woman's life is seriously endangered, represents a special case insofar as the woman has no real choice in the matter. (It should be noted as well that these cases, which are the only ones that can be considered truly "therapeutic", account statistically for fewer than one percent of the nearly 1.4 million abortions performed in the United States each year.) In cases of ectopic pregnancy, life-threatening eclampsia or uterine cancer, the only choice is to work to save the woman's life or else lose both her and the child she is carrying. Even in those exceptional cases where a late-term child might be saved if the woman's life is sacrificed, Orthodox tradition has held that priority should go to preserving the mother."





Thank you Opus18!!
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« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2011, 03:48:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

Ahem.. I would love for those 150 year old issues to have been long resolved, but America demonstrates every day that it is simply not the case, and the issues from the Civil War continue to haunt and divide Americans, even some folks on this forum have espoused silly ideas which I thought were resolved by that War but again, the issues are not exactly resolved at all! 
We have dogmatic principles that guide our decision making, but the ugly truth is that s**t happens. So how do we deal with it when blanket statements just won't do?

I would argue that we only have this crap happens kind of situation precisely because of bad legislation which has legally allowed a bad practice.  We fully understand that Orthodox absolutely rejects Euthanasia in any circumstances.  However, if in time Euthanasia becomes some kind of normal medical treatment like abortion has become, then perhaps folks with a straight face might propose apologetics for such actions.  It is only because abortion is a legal and recognized medical procedure that we are even having the discussion about its Orthodoxy.  We know that Fathers reject abortion as they do suicide, however we also know the Fathers emphasize repentance, reconciliation, and forgiveness.  In fact, we should HIGHLIGHT RIGHT HERE, THAT WHEN THE CHURCH REJECTS ABORTION IS ONLY FOR THE DEFINITION OF SIN AND CONFESSION.  We are not necessarily condemning anyone who has an abortion under any circumstances to eternal death and Hell, rather we are pointing out the definitions of which sins are appropriate and necessary for Confession, and which things are not.  Our Fathers help us to understand what is important to recognize and confess, and which things are merely our own over reactions to guilt and fear.  Not every thing is an offense necessary for Confession, and our Fathers help us with this process of understanding our sins and their effects and consequences.  So the Church is defining abortion as an absolute sin so that folks who have committed this Sin can and should know that they must take this sin to God in prayer and confession towards repentance.  They must REPENT of these sins and find God's Grace and Forgiveness.  

If abortion were simply not a medical option as it is today, this issue would effectively be silenced.  It is a MYTH and a FALLACY of the pro-abortion movements that "back-ally" abortions would rise and womens' health would be risked by outlawing abortion.  Abortion is not a necessary evil in our society, and to remove the option and close Pandora's box would stop all this debate and discussion in one sentence.  No, it would not resolve the issues of abortion to save a mother from a medical condition, but again, that is why we in the Church have the Unction of the Sick, precisely because from our weak and limited human perspective we can not fully understand the function and purpose of human illness and disease.  What separates a terminal pregnancy from any other terminal disease, risk, or condition? The only difference in this discussion is that we in this time have abortion as a quick fix, however if it were MY WIFE and MY CHILD, I simply wouldn't even want the option.  To have to make that decision is Solomon's wager, and killing the child to save the wife is splitting the baby in half with the sword.  True, you save the wife, but really, at what cost spiritually? Yes God can forgive ALL SINS, but that doesn't change the human experience of regret, of guilt, of fear..  

Quote
"Sickness in particular accentuates the fact THAT WE DO NOT CONTROL OUR OWN LIVES. If when we get sick, we respond by trying to grab even more rigid control of our lives, we are bound to fail.. We are potentially able to deepen our awareness of God, our dependence on Him, and our desire to seek His will.. In sickness we learn to depend upon others, even though we would prefer to be independent.  The fact that we learn to be dependent at all (something we usually shrug off as childlike, if not childish) HELPS US DEVELOP OR RELEARN A SENSE OF DEPENDENCE ON GOD.. The sick person, from a place of powerlessness, still has to learn to trust and to allow himself or herself to receive the available healing, no matter what happens.. Asking for a healing, we surrender to God. In the Mystery of the Anointing of the Sick, there is a strong awareness on behalf of the Church that the sick person is in the hands of God, and that God will provide the healing."
Father Meletios Webber Bread and Water, Wine and Oil.


Abortion puts couples in a terrible situation, it gives an unnatural option that God didn't necessarily intend us to have to grapple with.  God alone has the Divine wisdom to create, sustain, and control the flow of life on earth, we as humans are too limited to have this responsibility.  When we give ourselves this kind of escape hatch, we are in a sense adding complications to our mission of living here on Earth.  There are no escape hatches from life, only prayer and turning to God.  Abortion is an unfortunate reality, but one which we do not have to accept.  Yes we live in the real world, and things beyond our comprehension happen all the time, however this is why we have God in our lives in the first place, because since Adam and Eve's first mistake we have effectively demonstrated across all generations of humanity that we are simply not any good at being responsible for ourselves..

stay blessed,
habte selassie


POST OF THE MONTH!



Selam
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« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2011, 04:50:27 PM »

Quote
Different ways in which a life is lost is treated and considered on it's own. That's my point. You shouldn't call Abortion ( especially very early term abortion of a zygote) "Homicide" or "Murder". No one except the looney would apply the penalties for Murder to Women who have abortions, so I think people should stop using the term. It doesn't fit exactly and it does nothing but polarize people on the issue away from far better and accurate conversations.

We should call abortion "Abortion" which as we see it, is a loss of life and stop all the chest thumping
Wow, I agree with you twice in one week. I better go to the doctor....

Anyways, I think its a matter for the states. Let the localities decide whats best. If Virginians think it should be illegal in Virginia, so be it. If not, then dont.

Do I think abortion is killing your child? Yep. Would I like it outlawed? Sure do. However, I also know that these are emotional leadings of mine and if I pontificated about it, Im not much better than folks in California telling me in Virginia what to do about it.


On the flip-side, I dont think it does much good for dialog by trying to de-humanize the child in question by stating its not alive and all when it obviously is. Trying to correlate a fetus as a part of the body as a finger or toe is, to me, ridiculous.


PP

News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end
Hey, I just dont think its a federal issue.

PP

My dear boy..Everything is a Federal issue..

Merry (Western) Christmas
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« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2011, 04:54:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


News Flash: This Just In

Civil War over.. stop

Now one country..stop

State rights issue decided..stop

700,000 dead... stop

All stop..message end

Ahem.. I would love for those 150 year old issues to have been long resolved, but America demonstrates every day that it is simply not the case, and the issues from the Civil War continue to haunt and divide Americans, even some folks on this forum have espoused silly ideas which I thought were resolved by that War but again, the issues are not exactly resolved at all! 
We have dogmatic principles that guide our decision making, but the ugly truth is that s**t happens. So how do we deal with it when blanket statements just won't do?

I would argue that we only have this crap happens kind of situation precisely because of bad legislation which has legally allowed a bad practice.  We fully understand that Orthodox absolutely rejects Euthanasia in any circumstances.  However, if in time Euthanasia becomes some kind of normal medical treatment like abortion has become, then perhaps folks with a straight face might propose apologetics for such actions.  It is only because abortion is a legal and recognized medical procedure that we are even having the discussion about its Orthodoxy.  We know that Fathers reject abortion as they do suicide, however we also know the Fathers emphasize repentance, reconciliation, and forgiveness.  In fact, we should HIGHLIGHT RIGHT HERE, THAT WHEN THE CHURCH REJECTS ABORTION IS ONLY FOR THE DEFINITION OF SIN AND CONFESSION.  We are not necessarily condemning anyone who has an abortion under any circumstances to eternal death and Hell, rather we are pointing out the definitions of which sins are appropriate and necessary for Confession, and which things are not.  Our Fathers help us to understand what is important to recognize and confess, and which things are merely our own over reactions to guilt and fear.  Not every thing is an offense necessary for Confession, and our Fathers help us with this process of understanding our sins and their effects and consequences.  So the Church is defining abortion as an absolute sin so that folks who have committed this Sin can and should know that they must take this sin to God in prayer and confession towards repentance.  They must REPENT of these sins and find God's Grace and Forgiveness.  

If abortion were simply not a medical option as it is today, this issue would effectively be silenced.  It is a MYTH and a FALLACY of the pro-abortion movements that "back-ally" abortions would rise and womens' health would be risked by outlawing abortion.  Abortion is not a necessary evil in our society, and to remove the option and close Pandora's box would stop all this debate and discussion in one sentence.  No, it would not resolve the issues of abortion to save a mother from a medical condition, but again, that is why we in the Church have the Unction of the Sick, precisely because from our weak and limited human perspective we can not fully understand the function and purpose of human illness and disease.  What separates a terminal pregnancy from any other terminal disease, risk, or condition? The only difference in this discussion is that we in this time have abortion as a quick fix, however if it were MY WIFE and MY CHILD, I simply wouldn't even want the option.  To have to make that decision is Solomon's wager, and killing the child to save the wife is splitting the baby in half with the sword.  True, you save the wife, but really, at what cost spiritually? Yes God can forgive ALL SINS, but that doesn't change the human experience of regret, of guilt, of fear..  

Quote
"Sickness in particular accentuates the fact THAT WE DO NOT CONTROL OUR OWN LIVES. If when we get sick, we respond by trying to grab even more rigid control of our lives, we are bound to fail.. We are potentially able to deepen our awareness of God, our dependence on Him, and our desire to seek His will.. In sickness we learn to depend upon others, even though we would prefer to be independent.  The fact that we learn to be dependent at all (something we usually shrug off as childlike, if not childish) HELPS US DEVELOP OR RELEARN A SENSE OF DEPENDENCE ON GOD.. The sick person, from a place of powerlessness, still has to learn to trust and to allow himself or herself to receive the available healing, no matter what happens.. Asking for a healing, we surrender to God. In the Mystery of the Anointing of the Sick, there is a strong awareness on behalf of the Church that the sick person is in the hands of God, and that God will provide the healing."
Father Meletios Webber Bread and Water, Wine and Oil.


Abortion puts couples in a terrible situation, it gives an unnatural option that God didn't necessarily intend us to have to grapple with.  God alone has the Divine wisdom to create, sustain, and control the flow of life on earth, we as humans are too limited to have this responsibility.  When we give ourselves this kind of escape hatch, we are in a sense adding complications to our mission of living here on Earth.  There are no escape hatches from life, only prayer and turning to God.  Abortion is an unfortunate reality, but one which we do not have to accept.  Yes we live in the real world, and things beyond our comprehension happen all the time, however this is why we have God in our lives in the first place, because since Adam and Eve's first mistake we have effectively demonstrated across all generations of humanity that we are simply not any good at being responsible for ourselves..

stay blessed,
habte selassie


POST OF THE MONTH!



Selam

So... If a Woman is so sick that carrying a pregnancy to full term would kill her and she wanted to have an abortion........... What...... Would.......... You ........Do  ?

Thanks
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« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2011, 05:09:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So... If a Woman is so sick that carrying a pregnancy to full term would kill her and she wanted to have an abortion........... What...... Would.......... You ........Do  ?

Thanks

The same thing I would do if I were so sick that my disease would kill me, I would have to accept the Will of God and allow nature to takes its course, hopefully seasoned by Grace.  Abortion in this instance is ethically the same as Euthanasia, and in that context, it is universally wrong.  Now of course, we have to be VERY SPECIFIC about what abortion is in this instance.  If there is a still born fetus, or a tubular pregnancy, or these kinds of complications, that is not the same as an abortion, that is not eliminating a life, that is a more standard procedure. The tubular embryo has simply no chance of living, and it very well may already be "dead" and simply be existing in the woman's body as a kind of tumor.  It is not a matter of killing any fertilized egg so much as an abortion when that fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus has implanted in the uterus. 

Now by this same logic, some folks could assert that Plan B and the like of chemical abortions are OK, that is not true.  The point of conception is when life begins, however a tubular pregnancy complicates the scenario because that embryo has either died or will subsequently die of "natural causes" within the mother's body. 

If I were really in a push comes to shove situation, I would only let such surgeries be performed on my own wife if it is clear cut that we are not terminating a life, but surgically ending a lost pregnancy.  I am not trying to be mercurial to women, but we shouldn't let emotions get the best of us here, science already has answers if we combine it with our own sense of morality.  Life begins at conception, but that doesn't automatically imply that the embryos or fetuses live FOREVER in the womb, rather, we know sometimes they die, and in that instance, a surgical removal of a dead embryo or fetus I would say is perfectly Orthodox, but to kill an embryo or fetus for the same purpose would cross that line towards abortion.  Abortion in the most literal sense simply means to end a pregnancy, and in medical terms a miscarriage or a stillbirth is still referred to as an abortion, but from the Orthodox perspective it seems that Abortion is to terminate a living embryo or fetus that is safely implanted in the uterus.

I know it is harsh, but God has been allowing women to die in childbirth for a long time now, we need to learn to accept this, as we do all illness and terminal diseases.  This is precisely why I think abortion is so evil, because it allows us like Euthanasia and suicide to feel we can opt out of God's world and God's natural rules. We know from Adam and Eve that such actions have reverberating consequences.

Lastly, I will reiterate again, this is a personal matter for couples to discuss with their own Confessors.  I am just reiterating the fact that Abortion in all circumstances is a Sin in our Church, and requires Repentance and Confession.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2011, 05:22:17 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So... If a Woman is so sick that carrying a pregnancy to full term would kill her and she wanted to have an abortion........... What...... Would.......... You ........Do  ?

Thanks

The same thing I would do if I were so sick that my disease would kill me, I would have to accept the Will of God and allow nature to takes its course, hopefully seasoned by Grace.  Abortion in this instance is ethically the same as Euthanasia, and in that context, it is universally wrong.  Now of course, we have to be VERY SPECIFIC about what abortion is in this instance.  If there is a still born fetus, or a tubular pregnancy, or these kinds of complications, that is not the same as an abortion, that is not eliminating a life, that is a more standard procedure. The tubular embryo has simply no chance of living, and it very well may already be "dead" and simply be existing in the woman's body as a kind of tumor.  It is not a matter of killing any fertilized egg so much as an abortion when that fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus has implanted in the uterus. 

Now by this same logic, some folks could assert that Plan B and the like of chemical abortions are OK, that is not true.  The point of conception is when life begins, however a tubular pregnancy complicates the scenario because that embryo has either died or will subsequently die of "natural causes" within the mother's body. 

If I were really in a push comes to shove situation, I would only let such surgeries be performed on my own wife if it is clear cut that we are not terminating a life, but surgically ending a lost pregnancy.  I am not trying to be mercurial to women, but we shouldn't let emotions get the best of us here, science already has answers if we combine it with our own sense of morality.  Life begins at conception, but that doesn't automatically imply that the embryos or fetuses live FOREVER in the womb, rather, we know sometimes they die, and in that instance, a surgical removal of a dead embryo or fetus I would say is perfectly Orthodox, but to kill an embryo or fetus for the same purpose would cross that line towards abortion.  Abortion in the most literal sense simply means to end a pregnancy, and in medical terms a miscarriage or a stillbirth is still referred to as an abortion, but from the Orthodox perspective it seems that Abortion is to terminate a living embryo or fetus that is safely implanted in the uterus.

I know it is harsh, but God has been allowing women to die in childbirth for a long time now, we need to learn to accept this, as we do all illness and terminal diseases.  This is precisely why I think abortion is so evil, because it allows us like Euthanasia and suicide to feel we can opt out of God's world and God's natural rules. We know from Adam and Eve that such actions have reverberating consequences.

Lastly, I will reiterate again, this is a personal matter for couples to discuss with their own Confessors.  I am just reiterating the fact that Abortion in all circumstances is a Sin in our Church, and requires Repentance and Confession.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks
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« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2011, 05:41:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



So... If a Woman is so sick that carrying a pregnancy to full term would kill her and she wanted to have an abortion........... What...... Would.......... You ........Do  ?

Thanks

The same thing I would do if I were so sick that my disease would kill me, I would have to accept the Will of God and allow nature to takes its course, hopefully seasoned by Grace.  Abortion in this instance is ethically the same as Euthanasia, and in that context, it is universally wrong.  Now of course, we have to be VERY SPECIFIC about what abortion is in this instance.  If there is a still born fetus, or a tubular pregnancy, or these kinds of complications, that is not the same as an abortion, that is not eliminating a life, that is a more standard procedure. The tubular embryo has simply no chance of living, and it very well may already be "dead" and simply be existing in the woman's body as a kind of tumor.  It is not a matter of killing any fertilized egg so much as an abortion when that fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus has implanted in the uterus. 

Now by this same logic, some folks could assert that Plan B and the like of chemical abortions are OK, that is not true.  The point of conception is when life begins, however a tubular pregnancy complicates the scenario because that embryo has either died or will subsequently die of "natural causes" within the mother's body. 

If I were really in a push comes to shove situation, I would only let such surgeries be performed on my own wife if it is clear cut that we are not terminating a life, but surgically ending a lost pregnancy.  I am not trying to be mercurial to women, but we shouldn't let emotions get the best of us here, science already has answers if we combine it with our own sense of morality.  Life begins at conception, but that doesn't automatically imply that the embryos or fetuses live FOREVER in the womb, rather, we know sometimes they die, and in that instance, a surgical removal of a dead embryo or fetus I would say is perfectly Orthodox, but to kill an embryo or fetus for the same purpose would cross that line towards abortion.  Abortion in the most literal sense simply means to end a pregnancy, and in medical terms a miscarriage or a stillbirth is still referred to as an abortion, but from the Orthodox perspective it seems that Abortion is to terminate a living embryo or fetus that is safely implanted in the uterus.

I know it is harsh, but God has been allowing women to die in childbirth for a long time now, we need to learn to accept this, as we do all illness and terminal diseases.  This is precisely why I think abortion is so evil, because it allows us like Euthanasia and suicide to feel we can opt out of God's world and God's natural rules. We know from Adam and Eve that such actions have reverberating consequences.

Lastly, I will reiterate again, this is a personal matter for couples to discuss with their own Confessors.  I am just reiterating the fact that Abortion in all circumstances is a Sin in our Church, and requires Repentance and Confession.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Give thanks for the moral, ethical, and logical clarity. I hope others take heed. Bless!



Selam
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« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2011, 06:18:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2011, 06:57:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 
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« Reply #87 on: December 21, 2011, 07:07:59 PM »


http://books.google.com/books?id=hwYIdl1NO_oC&lpg=PA160&ots=3hcIbRYD1E&dq=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&pg=PA160#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20church%20stance%20on%20ectopic%20pregnancies&f=false

I'd like to find something more specific. . .but THIS is the merciful church I've come to know and love - that yes, there is the hard. . .but there is also the compassion and mercy as Christ Himself taught us.

This is what I feel as well. I typed out part of the text in the above link that deals with ectopic pregnancies:

"We need to make an important distinction, however, among these various situations. The first instance, in which the woman's life is seriously endangered, represents a special case insofar as the woman has no real choice in the matter. (It should be noted as well that these cases, which are the only ones that can be considered truly "therapeutic", account statistically for fewer than one percent of the nearly 1.4 million abortions performed in the United States each year.) In cases of ectopic pregnancy, life-threatening eclampsia or uterine cancer, the only choice is to work to save the woman's life or else lose both her and the child she is carrying. Even in those exceptional cases where a late-term child might be saved if the woman's life is sacrificed, Orthodox tradition has held that priority should go to preserving the mother."





Thank you Opus18!!

Likewise.
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« Reply #88 on: December 21, 2011, 07:21:32 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 


Please provide us with cases of women being tied down and literally forced to give birth to their children. Even when abortion was illegal, nobody was ever tied down and forced to give birth. If it did happen it was quite illegal, because such an action would essentially be false imprisonment or kidnapping. So, let's please stop with the propaganda about women being "forced" to give birth if abortion were illegal.

Nobody can force somebody not to kill themselves; however, I don't think we should legalize "suicide clinics" so that people can kill themselves "safely." Nor do I think that we should be so callous and indifferent as to say, "Unless you have been suicidal yourself, you have no right to condemn the action of suicide by someone else. It's their body, and therefore you should leave the decision to them."



Selam
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« Reply #89 on: December 21, 2011, 07:26:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 


Please provide us with cases of women being tied down and literally forced to give birth to their children. Even when abortion was illegal, nobody was ever tied down and forced to give birth. If it did happen it was quite illegal, because such an action would essentially be false imprisonment or kidnapping. So, let's please stop with the propaganda about women being "forced" to give birth if abortion were illegal.

Nobody can force somebody not to kill themselves; however, I don't think we should legalize "suicide clinics" so that people can kill themselves "safely." Nor do I think that we should be so callous and indifferent as to say, "Unless you have been suicidal yourself, you have no right to condemn the action of suicide by someone else. It's their body, and therefore you should leave the decision to them."



Selam

Right you are. That's why I said it was ridiculous. Men are clearly not an equal decider.
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« Reply #90 on: December 21, 2011, 08:47:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #91 on: December 21, 2011, 09:11:43 PM »

Quote
Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

The above is irrelevant where a woman has been raped.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 09:12:06 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: December 21, 2011, 10:37:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 


Please provide us with cases of women being tied down and literally forced to give birth to their children. Even when abortion was illegal, nobody was ever tied down and forced to give birth. If it did happen it was quite illegal, because such an action would essentially be false imprisonment or kidnapping. So, let's please stop with the propaganda about women being "forced" to give birth if abortion were illegal.

Nobody can force somebody not to kill themselves; however, I don't think we should legalize "suicide clinics" so that people can kill themselves "safely." Nor do I think that we should be so callous and indifferent as to say, "Unless you have been suicidal yourself, you have no right to condemn the action of suicide by someone else. It's their body, and therefore you should leave the decision to them."



Selam

Right you are. That's why I said it was ridiculous. Men are clearly not an equal decider.


Women do not have any more right to decide the fate of unborn life than men do. The life that has been created in the womb has been granted by God, and nobody has more or less of a right to determine whether that child lives or dies.



Selam
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« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2011, 11:54:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
Logged

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« Reply #94 on: December 22, 2011, 12:29:56 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
But that's not the point of this discussion as this point was defined in the OP. We're discussing an Orthodox response to abortion, NOT whether women are or should be free to choose what they think is best for them.
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« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2011, 12:08:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
But that's not the point of this discussion as this point was defined in the OP. We're discussing an Orthodox response to abortion, NOT whether women are or should be free to choose what they think is best for them.

Okay.. I apologize for my recent crankiness.. Purple demons.. I got myself over hungry so I have allowed myself more food. The clouds parted and the Sun came out. The Fast is intended to make you spiritually stronger...not turn you into a Mass Murderer.
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« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2011, 12:25:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
But that's not the point of this discussion as this point was defined in the OP. We're discussing an Orthodox response to abortion, NOT whether women are or should be free to choose what they think is best for them.

Okay.. I apologize for my recent crankiness.. Purple demons.. I got myself over hungry so I have allowed myself more food. The clouds parted and the Sun came out. The Fast is intended to make you spiritually stronger...not turn you into a Mass Murderer.

I have often wondered about this paradox.
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« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2011, 02:37:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
That very well may be true, but we are not out in the rest of the world, we are on OC.net forum, an Orthodox Christian message board, and further I have been discussing the specifically Orthodox interpretation and response the OP question which asked to discuss the Orthodox feelings about abortion in such circumstances Smiley

The world wasn't always filled with deadbeat dads out there, they are  product of our societies but that is not the natural role of male mammals.  Again, the idea that a man only has "the power of persuasion" is rather self-defeating for women's cause, but if as a society we want to continue to denigrate men's roles and responsibilities, well, what should we expect from men then?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2011, 11:04:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Let me be clearer.. I really didnt mean you personally. I am under the impression you are a male.

Then the answer is ( minus 4 paragraph build up)

 "It's a personal matter"..

 I hope I read that right.

Thanks

If you carefully read the 4 paragraph build up and then took the "Its a personal matter" statement well within that specific context, then I would say you (and any other readers) read that right.

I didn't think you meant me personally, I just decided to answer the question Smiley

..and what does it matter about a man or woman? It takes both genders mutually to have a baby, this is not then solely a "women's issue" and it is a red-herring fallacy to make it such if that is the direction you are insinuating.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

I only have a second but on the issue of no difference if it is a Man or a Woman who decide, I beg to differ.

It's obnoxious for a Man, who is not risking his own life, who doesn't have to suffer through the pain and risk of child birth to think he is an equal decider. He is not. His decision comes much earlier when he decided to have unprotected sex. That is his responsibility. He certainly has a voice in the decision to abort or not, but ultimately it's not his body.   It's ridiculous to image a Woman being forced one way or another. Ultimately all he has is the power of persuasion. 

You use all the wrong words.  We in Orthodox view Marriage as an absolutely equal partnership, a man and woman are on the same footing in God's eyes.  A child may  reside in the body of a woman, but that child would not exist without a man having been there.  In the context of Orthodox marriage then, which is what we Orthodox are speaking about, it would be wrong for either a man or a woman to make a unilateral decision in this regard, because it is a mutual issue.  We are not talking about single women, we are talking about married people, and if folks aren't married they have skipped a lot of steps in this discussion and need to go back to the basics before we can dive into the depths.  So considering married couples and the OP issue about Orthodox stance on abortion, it is equally the responsibility and decision of both men and women.  Further, as a man I resent the idea that I have no say or feelings or rightful opinion about my pregnant wife or the status and condition of my unborn child, it is my child too!! Do men not have hearts too? Are men not fathers, and are fathers somehow suddenly not important?

In the Church, we teach the two shall be one flesh, and that each have equal authority over each others' bo
dies, so your argument of "its the womens' body" simply doesn't hold water in the context of Orthodox marriage. In marriage, a man's wife IS HIS LIFE, and HIS WIFE'S LIFE IS AS HIS OWN IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT.  So from my perspective, it is obnoxious for you to suggest the man has no say or feelings in this matter, if his wife's life is in jeopardy, from the Church's perspective and my own it is as if that man's very own life were equally in jeopardy.   Now again, for those unmarried folks, they've skipped a lot of steps..

Even since I was in high school I have always resented the way pregnancy is viewed in American society as largely being a womens' issue and a womens decision, when it takes two to tango as they say.  Further, when we as a society negate men's roles, why should we expect men to then value and own up to their responsibilities? If the society expects women to fend for themselves, why would we expect men to step up to the plate?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

No one said the man has "No say". He only has the power of persuasion which has it's limits. Ultimately a Woman cant be forced one way or another.

Most Women are not Orthodox. If they dont subscribe to your religion then none of what you advise has any particular value. Women are free to chose what they think is best for them. Welcome to America.
But that's not the point of this discussion as this point was defined in the OP. We're discussing an Orthodox response to abortion, NOT whether women are or should be free to choose what they think is best for them.

Okay.. I apologize for my recent crankiness.. Purple demons.. I got myself over hungry so I have allowed myself more food. The clouds parted and the Sun came out. The Fast is intended to make you spiritually stronger...not turn you into a Mass Murderer.

I have often wondered about this paradox.
Yeah, I'm frequently reminded during these seasons of the words of St. John Chrysostom (I believe) about how we fast from meat yet eat each other.
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« Reply #99 on: December 23, 2011, 06:13:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Yeah, I'm frequently reminded during these seasons of the words of St. John Chrysostom (I believe) about how we fast from meat yet eat each other.

Amen Amen!

Quote
"Now if you are biting and devouring each other, beware that you may not be consumed by one another!"
Galations 5:15

This is why I take Apostle's Paul's advice well to heart in the context of all inter-brethren conflicts:

Quote
Futhermore brethren: rejoice, adjust, be entreated, be mutually disposed, be at peace."
2 Corinthians 13:11

If we rejoice in our brethren, if we are adjusted towards this cause, if we are constantly entreated towards each others' needs, having been mutually disposed towards each other, then we shall find peace in our hearts, but like all things in Orthodox, this is a continual process, not an instant becoming.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 06:14:34 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2012, 06:33:25 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.
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« Reply #101 on: June 12, 2012, 06:41:04 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam


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« Reply #102 on: June 12, 2012, 06:49:01 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




And yet you make that judgement every day.
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« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2012, 06:52:26 PM »

Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn. how can you decide that?
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« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2012, 06:56:57 PM »

Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn. how can you decide that?

If we take this all seriously, which no one really does.

First, God is in fact the one who decided to take any life.

Second, in terms of our own pathetic notions of free will within temporality in late capitalism, we choose to kill people every day. Each one of us. Every day. No exceptions. We are all murders. And I am not claiming some stupid Christian piety about the contents on one's heart, but that we actually and intentionally destroy human lives.

The argument could be made that such decisions were also made outside our epoch, but its a bit more complicated.

EDIT: gotta run, sorry for the typos.
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« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2012, 09:20:18 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.
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« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2012, 09:22:58 PM »

Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn. how can you decide that?

If we take this all seriously, which no one really does.

First, God is in fact the one who decided to take any life.

Second, in terms of our own pathetic notions of free will within temporality in late capitalism, we choose to kill people every day. Each one of us. Every day. No exceptions. We are all murders. And I am not claiming some stupid Christian piety about the contents on one's heart, but that we actually and intentionally destroy human lives.

The argument could be made that such decisions were also made outside our epoch, but its a bit more complicated.

EDIT: gotta run, sorry for the typos.

Speak for yourself. I don't "Choose to kill people everyday" .. What in the world are you talking about ??
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« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2012, 11:34:38 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




And yet you make that judgement every day.


Really? You are accusing me of deliberately killing innocent people every day?


Selam
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« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2012, 11:35:40 PM »

Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn. how can you decide that?


No it is not. Your premise is false.



Selam
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« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2012, 11:38:24 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam
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« Reply #110 on: June 13, 2012, 12:36:12 AM »

When the mother's life is threatened by giving birth I would say there is nothing wrong with abortion. One or the other has to survive, and since we cannot even ensure that the child will live when it is delivered, we are better focusing on the health of the mother in these unfortunate situations.
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« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2012, 12:36:19 AM »

Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn.
No, it's not. In some cases, it's best to not take action and trust God to do what's best.
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« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2012, 12:42:31 AM »

A man definitely has just as much of a right as the woman does when deciding whether she should have an abortion or not. If some people are going to argue that the woman has more of a right because she is the one that has to give birth to it, then a man could just as easily argue that he has a right too since he has to pay eighteen years of child support depending on her decision.
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« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2012, 12:46:08 AM »

A man definitely has just as much of a right as the woman does when deciding whether she should have an abortion or not. If some people are going to argue that the woman has more of a right because she is the one that has to give birth to it, then a man could just as easily argue that he has a right too since he has to pay eighteen years of child support depending on her decision.
I don't think that's the issue here, and it certainly isn't consistent with the traditional Orthodox teaching that NO ONE has the right to choose to abort a pregnancy. There's also one sure way that a man can guarantee that he'll never have to pay child support: Don't fool around.
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« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2012, 12:47:01 AM »

When the mother's life is threatened by giving birth I would say there is nothing wrong with abortion. One or the other has to survive, and since we cannot even ensure that the child will live when it is delivered, we are better focusing on the health of the mother in these unfortunate situations.

Let us suppose that the child in question is nine months along in its gestation before the complications in question arise, so as to avoid any quibbling as to whether it is a person or not. That much supposed:

1. Please say how, as a general principle, we can ever be sure who will live and who will die.

2. Please justify your proposition beginning with "and since" and ending in "unfortunate situations".

3. Crucially, please say how deliberately electing to kill one person so that another might live is morally better than allowing two people to die of "natural causes".
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« Reply #115 on: June 13, 2012, 12:51:45 AM »

Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn.
No, it's not. In some cases, it's best to not take action and trust God to do what's best.

Indeed.  And I can scarcely think of a more heavy cross to bear.  They are truly passion bearers.   
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« Reply #116 on: June 13, 2012, 12:56:11 AM »

1. Please say how, as a general principle, we can ever be sure who will live and who will die.

Medical science, rational thinking etc.

Quote
2. Please justify your proposition beginning with "and since" and ending in "unfortunate situations".

I concede; I cannot justify it.

Quote
3. Crucially, please say how deliberately electing to kill one person so that another might live is morally better than allowing two people to die of "natural causes".

Morally it is not better. But the law is a different thing than our Orthodox morals. Legally the law is concerned with what will preserve the most life; not what is morally correct. In the morally correct scenerio, both people die from natural causes. In the legal utilitarian sense, only one dies and another lives. The law has to do what will preserve more life; not what is morally sound.
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« Reply #117 on: June 13, 2012, 01:02:33 AM »

James, thank you for your answers.

I respond only briefly as follows.

1. Please say how, as a general principle, we can ever be sure who will live and who will die.

Medical science, rational thinking etc.

Medical science and reason provide good parameters for predicting what may or may not happen, but they do not provide certainty. I am convinced that, as human beings, one of the most important things we must learn is that we are not, ultimately, in control.

2. Please justify your proposition beginning with "and since" and ending in "unfortunate situations".

I concede; I cannot justify it.

Thank you for your honesty. It is a difficult proposition to justify, except for the GiC's amongst us.

3. Crucially, please say how deliberately electing to kill one person so that another might live is morally better than allowing two people to die of "natural causes".

Morally it is not better. But the law is a different thing than our Orthodox morals. Legally the law is concerned with what will preserve the most life; not what is morally correct. In the morally correct scenerio, both people die from natural causes. In the legal utilitarian sense, only one dies and another lives. The law has to do what will preserve more life; not what is morally sound.

I'm not quite sure that is true. It would certainly depend on which eminent jurist you are questioning on the subject (and, after all, what is the law but what eminent jurists say and do?). I can tell you, from my experience, that in many areas, the law refuses to entertain utilitarian logic.
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« Reply #118 on: June 13, 2012, 02:52:39 AM »

Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn.
No, it's not. In some cases, it's best to not take action and trust God to do what's best.

I don't think his point is that easily dismissed though. Your response sounds great when discussing the issue on an Orthodox Christian forum. Otherwise, many people (most importantly women who are likely to choose abortion) may presume that Tallitot's point is the case.

I do hope that when discussing this issue with those of different opinions, we don't focus too much on this point.  My understanding is that it's a fairly rare situation, so devoting a lot of effort to a largely hypothetical occurrence isn't helpful.  Secondly, it's liable to make people think we're overly odd and subsequently disregard our opinions on the overall issue.  A little subtlety can help sometimes (I'm not lecturing you, PtA, just making an observation in general).
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« Reply #119 on: June 13, 2012, 03:47:53 AM »

Deciding that a woman should not have an abortion in the case of life threatening complications is essentially telling her that her life is secondary to that of the unborn.
No, it's not. In some cases, it's best to not take action and trust God to do what's best.

Indeed.  And I can scarcely think of a more heavy cross to bear.  They are truly passion bearers.   

Amen. As Our Lord said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." [St. John 15:13]


Selam
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« Reply #120 on: June 13, 2012, 11:02:22 AM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 
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« Reply #121 on: June 13, 2012, 04:24:55 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam
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« Reply #122 on: June 13, 2012, 06:50:26 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.
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« Reply #123 on: June 13, 2012, 10:04:19 PM »

Morally it is not better. But the law is a different thing than our Orthodox morals. Legally the law is concerned with what will preserve the most life; not what is morally correct. In the morally correct scenerio, both people die from natural causes. In the legal utilitarian sense, only one dies and another lives. The law has to do what will preserve more life; not what is morally sound.

I don't know if this is true or not, to be honest. But if it is, then the law is wrong, based on the wrong principles, and needs to be changed. You might as well say "The law is different from our Orthodox morals: it allows abortion." as what you actually said. Both statements assume that a morally-incorrect law can still be accepted as in some sense "OK," because that's what the law is.
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« Reply #124 on: June 14, 2012, 03:01:30 AM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.


And yet you have no problem passing judgment on an innocent unborn child, and you preach your own morality to us.



Selam
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« Reply #125 on: June 14, 2012, 12:01:09 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.


And yet you have no problem passing judgment on an innocent unborn child, and you preach your own morality to us.



Selam

Pontificating on the Internet is just prideful idle musing. The person making the actual decision would be the Woman herself. 
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« Reply #126 on: June 14, 2012, 12:02:59 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.


And yet you have no problem passing judgment on an innocent unborn child, and you preach your own morality to us.



Selam

Pontificating on the Internet is just prideful idle musing. The person making the actual decision would be the Woman herself. 

Do you take this attitude with respect to other killings?
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« Reply #127 on: June 14, 2012, 12:08:27 PM »

Abortion is always the wrong choice.


Agreed. Even if it is presumed that aborting the unborn child will save the life of the mother, it should not be done. God can work miracles, and there is never a guarantee that child birth will result in the death of the mother. The incidental death of the mother that may occur from giving birth is not murder. However, the deliberate and intentional destruction of the unbron child through abortion is indeed murder.

That being said, I recognize that such a scenario is very difficult. It is easy for me philosophize about it, but it would be much more difficult if I faced such a situation with my own wife and unborn child. However, my wife has assured me that she would never want anyone to kill her unborn child in order to save her own life. That's the kind of woman to whom I am married, and I thank God for her every day.


Selam

Please forgive a johnny-come-lately comment. I do believe that if it can be verified that the  other's life is genuinely at risk by carrying the unborn to term, then extreme measures may be considered. While in retrospect I  respect Tim Tebow's mother for proceeding with the risky birth, I do not believe that this should obligate every other woman in the world follow suit.

But to decide to deliberately kill one innocent life in order to save another life is to judge that one human life is more valuable than another human life. Such judgments belong to God alone.



Selam




What would he think if she already has four other kids and a husband who really needs her.. And.. if she goes to term her death is certain.

For example, a woman may have serious cancer and cant wait so many months to get treatment for it. If she waits she will die.

"Always" is a big word.


You are arguing potentialities and congencies. It is never certain that a woman will die if she gives birth, but it is certain that a baby will die if it is aborted.


Selam

I dont think it is convincing to appeal to absolutes. If a woman has cancer and the doctors tell her that with high certainty she will die without immediate treatment ( which would kill the fetus) then that really his her business to decided........... not yours.

My point is that I chaff moral absolutes. Sometimes it's best just to mind your own business.
 


But you are arguing for a moral absolute based upon a subjective assumption, which is even more problematic.


Selam

Er... anyway... Women who have serious medical problems and cant afford to leave behind children and husband shouldn't be judged or preached to.
Thanks.


And yet you have no problem passing judgment on an innocent unborn child, and you preach your own morality to us.



Selam

Pontificating on the Internet is just prideful idle musing. The person making the actual decision would be the Woman herself. 

Do you take this attitude with respect to other killings?

Like passing judgement on Soldiers? Yup, I back off on that too understanding it's really not my business to butt in or condemn them as "killers".

Ask Gebre about that. He doesn't think fighting a war (if killing is involved) is ever justified..

I think a bit of discernment, common sense and mercy should prevail over very complicated decisions rather than paint them with one very broad brush
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