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Author Topic: Amillenialism  (Read 1526 times) Average Rating: 0
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Seafra
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« on: December 18, 2011, 10:56:43 PM »

Hey guys so I'm re-struggling through this one. I have personally been a Pre-millenialist something i have drawn on from some of the early fathers. I know and believer Orthodoxy doesnt believe in a literal 1000 year reign. I would say that most (i cant say all) premill would say they dont believe his reign is limited to only 1000 years. Personally I have held a very literal approach to many parts of scripture and I have believed that the 1k is more of a time marker at which the final judgement is made over all humanity and the "new" heaven and earth are present. Not so much that Christ stops reigning but that the time period is final and the sheep and goats are separated, then He continues to reign.

Regardless of my personal beliefs that is not my question. I am curious at what point did Orthodoxy take a stance? i know many early fathers held a stance like this Justin Martyr, Irenaeus.  Justin Martyr does mention differing views in Trypho the Jew "I and many others are of this opinion [premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." So obviously both stances were held.

I am curious at which point and for what reasons was it decided to take the stance Orthodoxy now holds? I noticed also a number of early writers who held a premil stance became montatnist could this have lled to Orthodoxy at some point defining a stance to separate from that sect?
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« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 07:30:31 AM »

Greetings brother, in the Name of the Holy Trinity, one God, amen.

I too did believe in pre-millenialism before. I did study the Scriptures in the C.I. Scofield Study Bible, that's why.

"Thousand" is often used in the Scriptures to denote a long period of time, a great quantity, completion, perfection, thoroughness.

"If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand." Job 9:3.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." 2 Peter 3:8.

The Bible teaches that Satan has been bound..

"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." Matthew 12:28,29.

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:17,18.

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me." John 12: 31,32.

"And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." Colossians 2:15.

But he is not inactive, however..

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?" Acts 5:3.

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Corinthians 5:5.

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." Ephesians 6:11.

The Bible clearly teaches that satan has been bound, already, but the real question is: In which sense is he said to be bound so that he cannot deceive anymore the nations till the thousand years are ended?

Maybe the best answer to your interrogation "at which point and for what reasons was it decided to take the stance Orthodoxy now holds?" is to say that the Orthodox didn't take the chiliastic position because.. its not true Wink

Be blessed.

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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 08:28:44 AM »

i have heard a lot about this scofield bible i never read it so i dont know how it is connected as i said i came to this conclusion from some of the writings of early writers, i see now that many apparently left orthodoxy in the end of their life, ie tertullian, however made very solid orthodox contributions while in the church. There is also the Epistle of barnabas and even the didache which can hint to a premill stance. Eusbius writes that Papias was also of a premill nature.

I know the main advocaters of amill from early age were Clement and Dionysius of Alexandria but if we have fathers on both sides what actually sealed the deal? i am aware of all the nuances in how to read the 1000 years and the terminology for both again i know Orthodoxy's stance im just curious as to when it was defined and why (although yours is clever :-p)

I dont think the montanists had to do with it now as Origen ended up going with him and he was amill.
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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 11:30:43 AM »

Yes, I know that a great number of the Church Fathers of the first centuries believed in it. And this view, it seems to me, did prevail among the Christians for a while, although there were already some people who didn't hold this view.

Well, I heard many times that Chiliasm had been condemned at the Second Oecumenical Council (at Constantinople). However, according to some people, it was not the case at all; in this article for instance, the author (but I don't know if he's an Orthodox) tries to shake this idea: http://francisgumerlock.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/Millennialism%20and%20the%20Early%20Church%20Councils.%20Gumerlock.pdf

It is possible that Chiliasm was never officially condemned; but it is clear, as you already know it, that it is a view generally considered to be wrong among the Orthodox Clergy..

Quite frankly, I don't know when exactly the Orthodox Church in general began to be "more" amillenialist, but I suppose maybe around the 4th or 5th century, maybe even a little before.



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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 05:21:09 PM »

I'm trying to remember... Did the Eastern fathers hold particularly strongly to a premillennial view? It's been awhile, since I thought about this, but IIRC, the book of Revelation didn't make it into the accepted canon until quite late in the East and only then because there was some kind of quid pro quo for the West accepting Hebrews. Of course, my memory might be completely letting me down, here.  Huh

I've heard most of the arguments for a premillennial view from Evangelical connections, but when one gets down to the nitty-gritty they always seem to centre on the *corrupt* Catholic Church deliberately "covering up the truth". Basically, the same argument that some Sects, for example, use for continuing the Sabbath, or rejecting the Trinity.

But if premillennialism was an idea that was tossed around for a while in the early days and and then rejected might that not indicate the prompting of the Holy Spirit, rather than some conspiratorial effort to suppress the truth?

Just a couple of thoughts.  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 09:58:47 PM »

haha i dont know much on conspiracies i do know that protestants dont know about orthodoxy... I thought there was only the catholic church until the reformation... so im not surprised to hear theories. As for me i am trying to convince myself to give up my old beliefs I have accepted i am wrong but now need to convince me of it, its odd how i work:-p, I am hoping that whatever made the stance be taken will click with me as well which is why i asked.
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« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 10:02:49 PM »

Hey, how have you been? Haven't seen you around the forum or KC at all.

Are you still living in KC?
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 10:08:14 PM »

Hey, how have you been? Haven't seen you around the forum or KC at all.

Are you still living in KC?
hey man i meant to message you, no I got a job with a railroad out in Pittsburgh. How is St mary's? Last i knew they were looking at redoing some of the offices there
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« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 11:33:57 PM »

Seafra, what does the term British Orthodox mean? I thought you might be in the UK, then realised you weren't.
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 12:24:54 AM »

Seafra, what does the term British Orthodox mean? I thought you might be in the UK, then realised you weren't.
The British Orthodox Church is the church i hope to convert into. It is under the Coptic patriarchate but is cultured to the British Isles. Father Peter Farrington is one on this Forum who is also a priest within the BOC.
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« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 12:43:57 AM »

Seafra, what does the term British Orthodox mean? I thought you might be in the UK, then realised you weren't.
The British Orthodox Church is the church i hope to convert into. It is under the Coptic patriarchate but is cultured to the British Isles. Father Peter Farrington is one on this Forum who is also a priest within the BOC.

Thanks, Seafra. Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2011, 12:45:29 AM »

here is the site if intrested... http://www.britishorthodox.org
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« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2011, 12:51:19 AM »

Hey guys so I'm re-struggling through this one. I have personally been a Pre-millenialist something i have drawn on from some of the early fathers. I know and believer Orthodoxy doesnt believe in a literal 1000 year reign. I would say that most (i cant say all) premill would say they dont believe his reign is limited to only 1000 years. Personally I have held a very literal approach to many parts of scripture and I have believed that the 1k is more of a time marker at which the final judgement is made over all humanity and the "new" heaven and earth are present. Not so much that Christ stops reigning but that the time period is final and the sheep and goats are separated, then He continues to reign.

Regardless of my personal beliefs that is not my question. I am curious at what point did Orthodoxy take a stance? i know many early fathers held a stance like this Justin Martyr, Irenaeus.  Justin Martyr does mention differing views in Trypho the Jew "I and many others are of this opinion [premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." So obviously both stances were held.

I am curious at which point and for what reasons was it decided to take the stance Orthodoxy now holds? I noticed also a number of early writers who held a premil stance became montatnist could this have lled to Orthodoxy at some point defining a stance to separate from that sect?
We don't worry about it.  Because in the second century a number of people worried too much what was going to happen rather than taking care of their present duties.  The idea is to always be ready.
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« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2012, 07:11:35 AM »

see  the "just don't worry about it" doesn't help me change my wrong beliefs... and that is what i am trying to achieve. I feel it is my responsibility to understand what i believe and why i believe it. and o do not believe it is inline with Orthodoxy to simply glean on "thats the opinion of the church" but rather to seek out why the church believes that... this way there is strength in our faith.
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« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2012, 04:41:47 PM »

Seafra, what does the term British Orthodox mean? I thought you might be in the UK, then realised you weren't.
The British Orthodox Church is the church i hope to convert into. It is under the Coptic patriarchate but is cultured to the British Isles. Father Peter Farrington is one on this Forum who is also a priest within the BOC.

Do they have parishes in the US?  Or are you originally from/planning to move to the UK?
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« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2012, 04:43:14 PM »

Seafra, what does the term British Orthodox mean? I thought you might be in the UK, then realised you weren't.
The British Orthodox Church is the church i hope to convert into. It is under the Coptic patriarchate but is cultured to the British Isles. Father Peter Farrington is one on this Forum who is also a priest within the BOC.

Do they have parishes in the US?  Or are you originally from/planning to move to the UK?
ive planned to move to Ireland since i was a child. i hope to move there in the next few years...
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« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2012, 04:44:09 PM »

Quote from: Seafra

ive planned to move to Ireland since i was a child. i hope to move there in the next few years...

I'd like to do that someday.
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« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2012, 04:45:56 PM »

Quote from: Seafra

ive planned to move to Ireland since i was a child. i hope to move there in the next few years...

I'd like to do that someday.
well you will have a place to stay! haha im buying land there in a year or two...but i will live in England for a bit to get involved with he BOC
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« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2012, 06:31:42 PM »

Seafra,

If you are able to, check out A Second Look at the Second Coming by T.L. Frazier.  This book has helped me a lot to understand the Orthodox position regarding the last days.  It is published by Conciliar Press .

http://www.amazon.com/Second-Look-Coming/dp/1888212144/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325457014&sr=1-1
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« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2012, 06:47:26 PM »

THANKS! will do! was also looking at http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Things-Orthodox-Christian-Perspective/dp/096227139X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1E73L26KDV6M0&colid=27DUEFXZNDP43
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« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2012, 07:02:51 PM »

That looks like a great book as well.
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« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2012, 07:05:29 PM »

yeah i have a couple on my list to get... there's just so far and few in Orthodoxy, which strikes me as odd as end times was the focus of the apostles and is our promise as the people of God, but i guess in trying to avoid the mistakes made earlier the church has decided to just not look at all...
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« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2012, 07:10:01 PM »

i have heard a lot about this scofield bible i never read it so i dont know how it is connected as i said i came to this conclusion from some of the writings of early writers, i see now that many apparently left orthodoxy in the end of their life, ie tertullian, however made very solid orthodox contributions while in the church. There is also the Epistle of barnabas and even the didache which can hint to a premill stance. Eusbius writes that Papias was also of a premill nature.

I know the main advocaters of amill from early age were Clement and Dionysius of Alexandria but if we have fathers on both sides what actually sealed the deal? i am aware of all the nuances in how to read the 1000 years and the terminology for both again i know Orthodoxy's stance im just curious as to when it was defined and why (although yours is clever :-p)

I dont think the montanists had to do with it now as Origen ended up going with him and he was amill.

There were other advocates as well, you already mentioned Origen, and so maybe I shouldn't of included him. Like you I use to be Premill. But I changed to amill when I became Orthodox. Why did I change? Because the Church didn't believe it, so why should I? There wasn't any theological reasons for me. It was good enough for me to know that the Church didn't accept it.

Some time later I found out that Saint Hippolyus changed his mind about the issue and so that was helpful:
http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/08/saint-hippolytus-changed-his-mind-about.html (Saint Hippolytus Changed His Mind About Chiliasm)

Quote
quote:
"    Hippolytus defended millenarianism in his Commentary on Daniel and De Christo et Antichristo. Opposition to the doctrine, however, was gathering force, the leader of the reaction at Rome being the priest Caius. In face of this Hippolytus departed from Irenaeus's exegesis of the key-passage, Rev. 20, 2-5. The thousand years there mentioned, he now explained, are not to be taken as referring literally to the duration of the kingdom, but are a symbolical number which should be interpreted as pointing to its splendor.

J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, Revised Edition, page 469,
published by Harper Collins."



Caius of Rome was another early advocate. In the quote above it said that he was the reason why Hippolytus changed his mind.
Quote
"Cerinthus [aheretic], through written revelations by a "great apostle" (as he would have us believe), brings before us marvelous things-which he pretends were shown to him by angels. He alleges that after the resurrection, the Kingdom of Christ is to be on earth and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem will again be subject to desire and pleasure." Eusebius, quoting Caius 215 A.D. [1] page 451


When Origen met people who believed it, he said, but you already know and so......
Quote
"Certain persons,. . .adopting a superficial view of the letter of the Law,. . . are of the opinion that the fulfillment of the promises of the future are to tbe looked for in bodily pleasure and Luxury. Therefore, they especially desire after the resurrection to have the power of eating, drinking, and performing all the functions of flesh and blood. . .Consequently, they say that after the begetting of children. They image to themselves that the earthly city of Jerusalem is to be rebuilt, its foundations being laid in precious stones. . . Moreover, they think that the natives of other countries are to be given them as the servants of their pleasure. . . They think that they are to receive the wealth of the nations to live on. These views they think to establish on the authority of the prophets, by those promises that are written regarding Jerusalem. . . And from the New Testament, too, they quote the saying of the Savior. . ."Henceforth, I will not drink of this cup, until I drink it with you new in My Father's Kingdom.". . .[The millennialists] desire the fulfillment of all things looked for in the promises, all according to the manner of things in this life and in all similar matters. . . However, those who receive the interpretations of Scripture according to the understanding of the apostles, entertain the hope that the saints will indeed eat- but that it will be the bread of life that can nourish the soul with food of truth and wisdom. Origen (225 A.D.)" [2] page 451



Eusebius was against Chillism
Quote
""Eusebius was certainly speaking for a large body of theological opinion in the East when he called Papias's millenarianism "bizarre" and rather mythological." [3] page 129




[1] page 451, [2] page 451 edited by David Bercot, in the book "A dictionary of Early Christian beliefs"

[3]page 129 by Jaroslav Pelikan, in the book "The Christian tradition: A history of the Development of Doctrine" Vol 1, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600)

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« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2012, 07:12:28 PM »

Great sources!
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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2012, 07:16:04 PM »

As has been mentioned, the Book of Revelation is not read in the liturgical services.  I think that is wise actually,due to the highly symbolic nature of the book.  So many modern cults have used Revelations to back-up their bizarre teachings precisely because it is so easy to read multiple meanings into many of the verses.  Even the Fathers of the Church have not written as much commentary on it as they have on the more straightforward books; the Gospels and the Epistles. Of course there is much to be learned about the end times from these books as well.

This might be true for us, but it's not true for Rome and for the Coptics. They both accepted the book of Revelations before we did. And even when we did accept it, it still took centuries for it to be cemented in our Canon. You can check out this podcast for more information.

http://www.myocn.net/index.php/Beyond-the-Veil/ (Beyond the Veil)

You can also buy her book:
http://www.revelation-resources.com/2009/10/01/e-s-constantinou-andrew-of-caesarea-and-the-apocalypse/ (Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse: Translated by Dr. Jeannie Constantinou)



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« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2012, 07:18:12 PM »

As has been mentioned, the Book of Revelation is not read in the liturgical services.  I think that is wise actually,due to the highly symbolic nature of the book.  So many modern cults have used Revelations to back-up their bizarre teachings precisely because it is so easy to read multiple meanings into many of the verses.  Even the Fathers of the Church have not written as much commentary on it as they have on the more straightforward books; the Gospels and the Epistles. Of course there is much to be learned about the end times from these books as well.

This might be true for us, but it's not true for Rome and for the Coptics. They both accepted the book of Revelations before we did. And even when we did accept it, it still took centuries for it to be cemented i our Canon.

I wonder why.  I would be interested in how the Copts understand Revelations, and if they use it in their services.
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« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2012, 07:24:05 PM »

thank you for your replies. however i am familiar there were influential people on both sides. im just looking to give me something to chew one and learn and study and pray on. I have always held great importance of doctrines probably comes from being a baptist. in this i need to be able to know why and how i believe what i believe. I cannot fathom standing before Go and have him ask why i chose to believe something and simply say it was what your church believed. That would be not only irresponsible but detached from the Love of God that should draw us to study and learn.i understand for some to simply take what is taught is fine... but i believe this to be the reason that ALL of Christianity is in the state it is in... Protestants are riddles with heresy and when questioned orthodox dont know why or how to explain their beliefs or pass on faulty info passed down with out question or study.
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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2012, 07:25:27 PM »

As has been mentioned, the Book of Revelation is not read in the liturgical services.  I think that is wise actually,due to the highly symbolic nature of the book.  So many modern cults have used Revelations to back-up their bizarre teachings precisely because it is so easy to read multiple meanings into many of the verses.  Even the Fathers of the Church have not written as much commentary on it as they have on the more straightforward books; the Gospels and the Epistles. Of course there is much to be learned about the end times from these books as well.

This might be true for us, but it's not true for Rome and for the Coptics. They both accepted the book of Revelations before we did. And even when we did accept it, it still took centuries for it to be cemented i our Canon.

I wonder why.  I would be interested in how the Copts understand Revelations, and if they use it in their services.
keep in mind even though it is not literally read revelations is presented withing byzantine liturgy multiple times...
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2012, 07:26:57 PM »

seafra, u probably know there are plenty of coptic churches in ireland, including at least one native born priest. so it would be easy to get in touch with them.
are u in touch with any oriental orthodox churches near where you live? if you joined one, then you would be automatically in communion with the british orthodox church within the coptic patriarchate.
you don't need to join a specific church to be a member of that church, eg, as a copt, if i settled in another area and then started regularly attending an indian orthodox church or an ethiopian orthodox church, i could then consider myself a member of that church without any official change of juristiction.

as for the book or revelation, most orthodox Christians, as far as i can tell, would not classify themselves as part of the pre- post- a- whatever- millenialism debate as that would assume that the 1,000 years in revelation is a literal exact 1,000 years and we can't actually be sure how much of revelation is literal and how much is metaphorical. we focus on how to prepare ourselves, knowing that we will be judged by God (before, during or after the 1,000 years that may or may not be literal) and that we need a living faith to complete the work of salvation that God, in His grace has started in us.

peteprint,
we copts read the entire book of revelation on the night of good friday as part of an all night service that ends with liturgy, finishing around 6am. it's one of those things u have to experience! there are loads of old testament readings as well, which point us towards preparing ourselves for the judgement at the end of the world. the liturgy is especially joyful as it commemorates Jesus' victory over death and prepares us for the next day's Paschal liturgy.
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2012, 07:27:40 PM »

thank you for your replies. however i am familiar there were influential people on both sides. im just looking to give me something to chew one and learn and study and pray on. I have always held great importance of doctrines probably comes from being a baptist. in this i need to be able to know why and how i believe what i believe. I cannot fathom standing before Go and have him ask why i chose to believe something and simply say it was what your church believed. That would be not only irresponsible but detached from the Love of God that should draw us to study and learn.i understand for some to simply take what is taught is fine... but i believe this to be the reason that ALL of Christianity is in the state it is in... Protestants are riddles with heresy and when questioned orthodox dont know why or how to explain their beliefs or pass on faulty info passed down with out question or study.

I was raised a Baptist, so I had the same issues.  Books like the one I suggested really helped me to see the Orthodox teaching on the subject.
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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2012, 07:29:55 PM »

ok, i didn't have time to write a study guide (it wouldn't have been very good anyway) but i found this online, which sounds like what i have heard in the church:
http://suscopts.org/resources/literature/716/revelation-the-final-victory-of-christs-kingdom/
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« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2012, 07:30:20 PM »

seafra, u probably know there are plenty of coptic churches in ireland, including at least one native born priest. so it would be easy to get in touch with them.
are u in touch with any oriental orthodox churches near where you live? if you joined one, then you would be automatically in communion with the british orthodox church within the coptic patriarchate.
you don't need to join a specific church to be a member of that church, eg, as a copt, if i settled in another area and then started regularly attending an indian orthodox church or an ethiopian orthodox church, i could then consider myself a member of that church without any official change of juristiction.

as for the book or revelation, most orthodox Christians, as far as i can tell, would not classify themselves as part of the pre- post- a- whatever- millenialism debate as that would assume that the 1,000 years in revelation is a literal exact 1,000 years and we can't actually be sure how much of revelation is literal and how much is metaphorical. we focus on how to prepare ourselves, knowing that we will be judged by God (before, during or after the 1,000 years that may or may not be literal) and that we need a living faith to complete the work of salvation that God, in His grace has started in us.

peteprint,
we copts read the entire book of revelation on the night of good friday as part of an all night service that ends with liturgy, finishing around 6am. it's one of those things u have to experience! there are loads of old testament readings as well, which point us towards preparing ourselves for the judgement at the end of the world. the liturgy is especially joyful as it commemorates Jesus' victory over death and prepares us for the next day's Paschal liturgy.

Thank you mabsoota.  That would be an experience.  St. Demiana Coptic Orthodox Church is the Coptic parish here in San Diego, CA.  Perhaps one day I will have the pleasure of visiting.  It is fairly close to the area I live in.
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« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2012, 07:31:45 PM »

seafra, u probably know there are plenty of coptic churches in ireland, including at least one native born priest. so it would be easy to get in touch with them.
are u in touch with any oriental orthodox churches near where you live? if you joined one, then you would be automatically in communion with the british orthodox church within the coptic patriarchate.
you don't need to join a specific church to be a member of that church, eg, as a copt, if i settled in another area and then started regularly attending an indian orthodox church or an ethiopian orthodox church, i could then consider myself a member of that church without any official change of juristiction.

as for the book or revelation, most orthodox Christians, as far as i can tell, would not classify themselves as part of the pre- post- a- whatever- millenialism debate as that would assume that the 1,000 years in revelation is a literal exact 1,000 years and we can't actually be sure how much of revelation is literal and how much is metaphorical. we focus on how to prepare ourselves, knowing that we will be judged by God (before, during or after the 1,000 years that may or may not be literal) and that we need a living faith to complete the work of salvation that God, in His grace has started in us.

peteprint,
we copts read the entire book of revelation on the night of good friday as part of an all night service that ends with liturgy, finishing around 6am. it's one of those things u have to experience! there are loads of old testament readings as well, which point us towards preparing ourselves for the judgement at the end of the world. the liturgy is especially joyful as it commemorates Jesus' victory over death and prepares us for the next day's Paschal liturgy.
Maboosta thank you for your kind thoughts! I have attended coptic church as well as a greek one in Kansas City however the closest coptic one near me now is a little over an hour away, there are a couple eastern a eastern catholic and a monastery withing minutes away that i visit. I am aware about converting into the Coptic and have considered it a lot however i do have a romanticized idea about converting in Ireland, I know its just a fantasy and really shouldn't hold any weight, but its hard to remove things that include the people and places you love.
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« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2012, 07:34:09 PM »

thank you for your replies. however i am familiar there were influential people on both sides. im just looking to give me something to chew one and learn and study and pray on. I have always held great importance of doctrines probably comes from being a baptist. in this i need to be able to know why and how i believe what i believe. I cannot fathom standing before Go and have him ask why i chose to believe something and simply say it was what your church believed. That would be not only irresponsible but detached from the Love of God that should draw us to study and learn.i understand for some to simply take what is taught is fine... but i believe this to be the reason that ALL of Christianity is in the state it is in... Protestants are riddles with heresy and when questioned orthodox dont know why or how to explain their beliefs or pass on faulty info passed down with out question or study.


You must still have alot of fight left in you. I was burnt out and tired of fighting. I needed a place to rest. A peace of mind! I needed somewhere to lay my head and just partake of the Mysteries(Sacraments).

There are doctrines in where we should know why we believe what we do, I just came to the conclusion that this wasn't one of those doctrines of up-most importance. For the issues of the Eucharist and the Church were far more important to me. And so I dropped premill and just trusted the Church. I knew I didn't know everything there was to know about the Eastern version of amill, but I knew in time I would eventually grow in that area.

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« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2012, 07:39:00 PM »

thank you for your replies. however i am familiar there were influential people on both sides. im just looking to give me something to chew one and learn and study and pray on. I have always held great importance of doctrines probably comes from being a baptist. in this i need to be able to know why and how i believe what i believe. I cannot fathom standing before Go and have him ask why i chose to believe something and simply say it was what your church believed. That would be not only irresponsible but detached from the Love of God that should draw us to study and learn.i understand for some to simply take what is taught is fine... but i believe this to be the reason that ALL of Christianity is in the state it is in... Protestants are riddles with heresy and when questioned orthodox dont know why or how to explain their beliefs or pass on faulty info passed down with out question or study.

You must still have alot of fight left in you. I was burnt out and tired of fighting. I needed a place to rest. I peace of mind! I needed somewhere to lay my head and just partake of the Mysteries(Sacraments).

There are doctrines in where we should know why we believe what we do, I just came to the conclusion that this wasn't one of those doctrines of up-most importance. For the issues of the Eucharist and the Church were far more important to me. And so I dropped premill and just trusted the Church. I knew I didn't know everything there was to know about the Eastern version of amill, but I knew in time I would eventually grow in that area.




hahah my biggest issue is i taught eschatology, most of what i taught lined up with the Orthodox opinion except for the literal 100 years, however like i said its not that Christ only reigns 1k years but a timing indicator which seems to be the main thing Orthodoxy has against the idea of a millennial kingdom, and as such i can rationalize not having to change much of my eschatology, but i don't think rationalization will make it real. hence i am trying to find the deeper details to weed out what does not line up...
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« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2012, 07:45:25 PM »

thank you for your replies. however i am familiar there were influential people on both sides. im just looking to give me something to chew one and learn and study and pray on. I have always held great importance of doctrines probably comes from being a baptist. in this i need to be able to know why and how i believe what i believe. I cannot fathom standing before Go and have him ask why i chose to believe something and simply say it was what your church believed. That would be not only irresponsible but detached from the Love of God that should draw us to study and learn.i understand for some to simply take what is taught is fine... but i believe this to be the reason that ALL of Christianity is in the state it is in... Protestants are riddles with heresy and when questioned orthodox dont know why or how to explain their beliefs or pass on faulty info passed down with out question or study.

You must still have alot of fight left in you. I was burnt out and tired of fighting. I needed a place to rest. I peace of mind! I needed somewhere to lay my head and just partake of the Mysteries(Sacraments).

There are doctrines in where we should know why we believe what we do, I just came to the conclusion that this wasn't one of those doctrines of up-most importance. For the issues of the Eucharist and the Church were far more important to me. And so I dropped premill and just trusted the Church. I knew I didn't know everything there was to know about the Eastern version of amill, but I knew in time I would eventually grow in that area.




hahah my biggest issue is i taught eschatology, most of what i taught lined up with the Orthodox opinion except for the literal 100 years, however like i said its not that Christ only reigns 1k years but a timing indicator which seems to be the main thing Orthodoxy has against the idea of a millennial kingdom, and as such i can rationalize not having to change much of my eschatology, but i don't think rationalization will make it real. hence i am trying to find the deeper details to weed out what does not line up...

From my own personal study, I saw that the early amillers were just like the early premillers in almost every way except for the literal 1,000 year thing.

This also made it easier for me to drop it, for I knew that the western amill views weren't necessarily the same as the eastern amill view. And so this made the transition easier as well.


You probably already know this, but the early premillers had a carnal view of what life would be like in that 1,000 years. Almost Islamic in a sense. They thought there would be huge grapes , well, I forgot for I'm not looking at it, but it was a carnal view of things and that turned off alot of people.


Another reason could be because some Modalistic groups could of embraced it as well.
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« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2012, 07:51:03 PM »

do you have any links or anything of their writings on the position? i dont know of any letters specifically discussing the situation but there had to be some portions... much like irenaeus' excerpt
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« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2012, 07:51:30 PM »

i wouldn't delay converting if u know u want to be orthodox.
u can still have an amazing experience with your first Holy Communion in ireland, your first Christmas in ireland etc. etc. but don't deprive yourself of the full depths of the orthodox church if u know u want to be in it.

when i joined the church, it was just me and the priest and a couple of other people who couldn't quite see what was going on!
nothing worth writing home about, apparently.
but the joy in my heart felt like it was going to burst right out of my chest!
  Cheesy
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« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2012, 07:56:54 PM »

I'm trying to find a quote by Marcellus(or about him) in where he said that the Son would go back into the Father after the 1,000 year reign on earth, but I can't seem to find where I put that quote at. All I could find was this:

Why a huge portion later turned their back on Nicea only to be reconciled some many decades later by the hard work of Saint Athanasius
Quote
Quote:
"For Marcellus, Son and Spirit emerged from the Godhead as distinct persons only for the purposes of creation and redemption. At the end of the world, both would be resumed into the divine unity. These statements of Marcellus convinced many that the Creed of Nicaea was suspect of Sabellianism, and he would long be an albatross about the necks of the orthodox Nicenes. Marcellus made the mistake of sending a book embodying his views to Constantine. For his pains he was deposed in 336, surviving through many vicissitudes until his death at the age of ninety in 374.
[1] page 76


[1] page 76 from the book the first Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology by Leo Donald Davis




If I find it i'll post, but yeah, I think some of the modalistic groups were also chilist as well.
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« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2012, 07:58:36 PM »

i wouldn't delay converting if u know u want to be orthodox.
u can still have an amazing experience with your first Holy Communion in ireland, your first Christmas in ireland etc. etc. but don't deprive yourself of the full depths of the orthodox church if u know u want to be in it.

when i joined the church, it was just me and the priest and a couple of other people who couldn't quite see what was going on!
nothing worth writing home about, apparently.
but the joy in my heart felt like it was going to burst right out of my chest!
  Cheesy
I understand that and i tell myself that but at the same time i dream of being baptized in a river or ocean in Ireland, also seeing as i still have my own theological difference i am working through i feel its just not the right time. I know i will never know everything that's not Orthodoxy, but it just doesn't feel like i am ready yet.
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« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2012, 08:01:06 PM »

do you have any links or anything of their writings on the position? i dont know of any letters specifically discussing the situation but there had to be some portions... much like irenaeus' excerpt

About their carnal understanding of what would happen in the 1,00 years or about some modalistic groups also embracing some form of chilism?

In the quotes I gave from Origen, I think he mentions a little of it in passing. The same could be true for Eusabius when talking about Papius, hmm or was it somebody else they were talking about? Hmm
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« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2012, 08:02:24 PM »

I'm trying to find a quote by Marcellus in where he said that the Son would go back into the Father after the 1,000 year reign on earth, but I can't seem to find where I put that quote at. All I could find was this:

Why a huge portion later turned their back on Nicea only to be reconciled some many decades later by the hard work of Saint Athanasius
Quote
Quote:
"For Marcellus, Son and Spirit emerged from the Godhead as distinct persons only for the purposes of creation and redemption. At the end of the world, both would be resumed into the divine unity. These statements of Marcellus convinced many that the Creed of Nicaea was suspect of Sabellianism, and he would long be an albatross about the necks of the orthodox Nicenes. Marcellus made the mistake of sending a book embodying his views to Constantine. For his pains he was deposed in 336, surviving through many vicissitudes until his death at the age of ninety in 374.
[1] page 76


[1] page 76 from the book the first Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology by Leo Donald Davis




If I find it i'll post, but yeah, I think some of the modalistic groups were also chilist as well.
yeah i know many of the heretical groups were... this is one of the reasons i thought that  official stance was made. but i haven't connected any dots to it
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« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2012, 08:08:43 PM »

do you have any links or anything of their writings on the position? i dont know of any letters specifically discussing the situation but there had to be some portions... much like irenaeus' excerpt

About their carnal understanding of what would happen in the 1,00 years or about some modalistic groups also embracing some form of chilism?

In the quotes I gave from Origen, I think he mentions a little of it in passing. The same could be true for Eusabius when talking about Papius, hmm or was it somebody else they were talking about? Hmm
ummm understandings i dont care much for why the heretical groups embraced an opinion but more on the orthodox.. I could be way off and its just a matter that time erased the chiliastic opinion, and the opinion of the more prominent teachers was non chiliastic? so there was never any real decision but rather "natural selection"
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