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Question: Do some sins cut one off from God's grace that if left unconfessed to a priest, send one to eternal hell?
yes, by very bad sins - 6 (46.2%)
no, only by rejecting the Holy Spirit - 7 (53.8%)
Total Voters: 13

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Author Topic: Can Orthodox lose their state of grace?  (Read 4375 times) Average Rating: 0
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Volnutt
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« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2011, 02:26:44 PM »

If you die in the true faith, and are genuinely sorry for your sins, it could be that you died without the opportunity to prove your repentance by good works. In some such situations, you may not be able to go straight to Heaven, because the seriousness of your sins precludes it.
So how many tollhouses did St. Dolmas have to pass through before Christ finally made good on his promise?
Dismas, just for the clarity of the discussion.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2011, 02:29:36 PM »


Don't know why you have framed the issue of abortion with smiling faces, but maybe it is just me.


I see no reason to take too seriously that which is not objectively evil. 

Ah, explains your position on annullments.
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« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2011, 02:32:06 PM »

If you die in the true faith, and are genuinely sorry for your sins, it could be that you died without the opportunity to prove your repentance by good works. In some such situations, you may not be able to go straight to Heaven, because the seriousness of your sins precludes it.
So how many tollhouses did St. Dolmas have to pass through before Christ finally made good on his promise?
Dismas, just for the clarity of the discussion.
I prefer Dolmas. His repentance contained sweet savor.  Wink
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« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2011, 02:33:05 PM »

True lol.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2011, 03:12:22 PM »

The presence of the Holy Spirit which enters a person at the time of Baptism never leaves a person until the time of death if the person is going to hell.  During life the Spirit and divine grace never depart from a man or woman, even though their sins be the most serious imaginable.  Baptismal grace is inextinguishable until death and hell.

This is what I was taught.
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« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2011, 03:18:31 PM »

The presence of the Holy Spirit which enters a person at the time of Baptism never leaves a person until the time of death if the person is going to hell.  During life the Spirit and divine grace never depart from a man or woman, even though their sins be the most serious imaginable.  Baptismal grace is inextinguishable until death and hell.

This is what I was taught.

I was taught the same thing.  I was also taught that we place ourselves [spiritually] outside of that state of grace by refusing to conform our will to the divine will of the Indwelling.

M.
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« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2011, 03:26:24 PM »

The presence of the Holy Spirit which enters a person at the time of Baptism never leaves a person until the time of death if the person is going to hell.  During life the Spirit and divine grace never depart from a man or woman, even though their sins be the most serious imaginable.  Baptismal grace is inextinguishable until death and hell.

This is what I was taught.

I was taught the same thing.  I was also taught that we place ourselves [spiritually] outside of that state of grace by refusing to conform our will to the divine will of the Indwelling.

M.

The "state of grace" for us Easterners is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Once He takes up His dwelling within us at Baptism we cannot ever be "outside" Him.  We can grieve Him. We can restrict His work in our life but to move outside Him, leave Him behind, no.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 03:41:25 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2011, 03:33:42 PM »

The presence of the Holy Spirit which enters a person at the time of Baptism never leaves a person until the time of death if the person is going to hell.  During life the Spirit and divine grace never depart from a man or woman, even though their sins be the most serious imaginable.  Baptismal grace is inextinguishable until death and hell.

This is what I was taught.

I was taught the same thing.  I was also taught that we place ourselves [spiritually] outside of that state of grace by refusing to conform our will to the divine will of the Indwelling.

M.

The "state of grace" for us Easterners is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Once he takes up his dwelling within us at Baptism we cannot ever be "outside" him.  We can grieve him. We can restrict His work in our life but to move outside Him, leave Him behind, no.

Yes.  We refuse to cooperate with His work in our lives.  That is how I understand it as well...How I was taught.  Being in a state of grace has direct connection to our part in cooperating with the divine life.
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« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2011, 06:17:32 PM »

The presence of the Holy Spirit which enters a person at the time of Baptism never leaves a person until the time of death if the person is going to hell.  During life the Spirit and divine grace never depart from a man or woman, even though their sins be the most serious imaginable.  Baptismal grace is inextinguishable until death and hell.

This is what I was taught.

I was taught the same thing.  I was also taught that we place ourselves [spiritually] outside of that state of grace by refusing to conform our will to the divine will of the Indwelling.

M.

The "state of grace" for us Easterners is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Once He takes up His dwelling within us at Baptism we cannot ever be "outside" Him.  We can grieve Him. We can restrict His work in our life but to move outside Him, leave Him behind, no.

Father, can this concept be extended to the idea that everyone carries the image of God within us, therefore are born into a state of grace, simply to exist?
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« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2011, 06:39:24 PM »

The presence of the Holy Spirit which enters a person at the time of Baptism never leaves a person until the time of death if the person is going to hell.  During life the Spirit and divine grace never depart from a man or woman, even though their sins be the most serious imaginable.  Baptismal grace is inextinguishable until death and hell.

This is what I was taught.

I was taught the same thing.  I was also taught that we place ourselves [spiritually] outside of that state of grace by refusing to conform our will to the divine will of the Indwelling.

M.

The "state of grace" for us Easterners is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Once He takes up His dwelling within us at Baptism we cannot ever be "outside" Him.  We can grieve Him. We can restrict His work in our life but to move outside Him, leave Him behind, no.

Father, can this concept be extended to the idea that everyone carries the image of God within us, therefore are born into a state of grace, simply to exist?

Just off the top of my head....

1.  I don't think the Orthodox use the "state of grace" language.

2.  Grace for us is one of God's uncreated energies and, therefore, it is God Himself.

3.  Uncreated grace takes up dwelling in a person at Baptism.  At this time the Mystery of Illumination brings the Holy Spirit to dwell in the human body and soul.

4.  In pre-Christian times, and still today for the unbaptized, grace is an external factor.  They have not received the Holy Spirit in their souls.

5.  This "scheme" of things seems to rule out that we are born with grace, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  This is a specific fruit of Baptism.   When unbaptized we may be surrounded by uncreated grace, it may direct us and protect us but it is not internalised.

But, as I said, this is off the top of my head and I stand to be corrected.
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« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2011, 07:01:31 PM »

In the Holy Fathers is there a distinction made between the grace that saves and the grace that enlivens or animates?
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« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2011, 07:20:54 PM »

Quote
Uh, where did you get 'before the 'Latin Captivity''?

Witega,

I was referring to the fact that the link references Georgios Scholarios, a 15th century Orthodox who predates Nicholas by 300 years, and represents the Orthodox Church view that was pro-Latin even before Constantinople fell. 

Can anyone point out any Church Father between 100-1500 who did not teach that there are sins that land one in hell if unconfessed?

K
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« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2011, 07:29:09 PM »

Also are there any sins that communion does not heal?  In other words are there sins which must be confessed in order to receive absolution?...

The Eucharist can further seal a person's condemnation, if they approach the chalice with a wrong state of heart.
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« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2011, 07:44:46 PM »

Also are there any sins that communion does not heal?  In other words are there sins which must be confessed in order to receive absolution?...

The Eucharist can further seal a person's condemnation, if they approach the chalice with a wrong state of heart.

The unworthy reception would be the seal...right?...not the body and blood of Jesus...

The blasphemy is the sin...

I am pretty darn sure that's what you mean but I thought I'd just say it.

M.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2011, 08:10:13 PM »

Quote
Uh, where did you get 'before the 'Latin Captivity''?

Witega,

I was referring to the fact that the link references Georgios Scholarios, a 15th century Orthodox who predates Nicholas by 300 years, and represents the Orthodox Church view that was pro-Latin even before Constantinople fell.
 
Constantinople fell to the Latins in 1204.

Can anyone point out any Church Father between 100-1500 who did not teach that there are sins that land one in hell if unconfessed?

K
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« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2011, 08:12:51 PM »

In the Holy Fathers is there a distinction made between the grace that saves and the grace that enlivens or animates?
Since He is One, I would think not.

I would think the difference between receiving grace in the OT and receiving in the NT is a change in us, not in God.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2011, 08:19:07 PM »

The teaching of Saint Seraphim of Sarov on grace. It touches on our discussion.  This is recorded in his conversation with Nikolai Motovilov.

“However, that [i.e., the fact that “the Spirit of God was not yet in the world”—St. John
7:39] does not mean that the Spirit of God was not in the world at all, but His presence was not so
apparent as in Adam or in us Orthodox Christians. It was manifested only externally; yet the
signs of His presence in the world were known to mankind. . . . The grace of the Holy
Spirit acting externally was also reflected in all the Old Testament prophets and Saints of
Israel. The Hebrews afterwards established special prophetic schools where the sons of
the prophets were taught to discern the signs of the manifestation of God or of Angels,
and to distinguish the operations of the Holy Spirit from the ordinary natural
phenomena of our graceless earthly life. Simeon who held God in his arms, Christ’s
grandparents Joakim and Anna, and countless other servants of God continually had
quite openly various divine apparitions, voices and revelations which were justified by
evident miraculous events. Though not with the same power as in the people of God,
nevertheless, the presence of the Spirit of God also acted in the pagans who did not
know the true God, because even among them God found for Himself chosen people. . .
. Though the pagan philosophers also wandered in the darkness of ignorance of God, yet
they sought the truth which is beloved by God, and on account of this God-pleasing seeking, they
could partake of the Spirit of God, for it is said that the nations who do not know God practice
by nature the demands of the law and do what is pleasing to God (cf. Rom. 2:14)"
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« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2011, 08:21:12 PM »

Saint Seraphim continues....

"But when our Lord Jesus Christ condescended to accomplish the whole work of
salvation, after His Resurrection, He breathed on the Apostles, restored the breath of life lost by
Adam, and gave them the same grace of the All-Holy Spirit of God as Adam had enjoyed. But that was
not all. He also told them that it was expedient for them that He should go to the Father,
for if He did not go, the Spirit of God would not come into the world. But if He, the
Christ, went to the Father, He would send Him into the world, and He, the Comforter,
would guide them and all who followed their teaching into all truth and would remind them of all
that He had said to them when He was still in the world. What was then promised was
grace upon grace (St. John. 1:16).

"Then on the day of Pentecost He solemnly sent down to them in a tempestuous
wind the Holy Spirit in the form of tongues of fire which alighted on each of them and
entered within them and filled them with the fiery strength of divine grace which
breathes bedewingly and acts gladdeningly in souls which partake of its power and
operations (cf. Acts 2:1-4). And this same fire-infusing grace of the Holy Spirit which is
given to us all, the faithful of Christ, in the Mystery of Holy Baptism, is sealed by the Mystery of
Chrismation on the chief parts of our body as appointed by Holy Church, the eternal keeper of
this grace."
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« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2011, 08:34:41 PM »

In the Holy Fathers is there a distinction made between the grace that saves and the grace that enlivens or animates?
Since He is One, I would think not.

So you say there is nothing in the holy fathers, desert or patristic, that makes a distinction between the grace that animates the soul and the grace that saves the soul...It is all the same action to the fathers?
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« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2011, 08:49:58 PM »

Extraxted from the writings of Patrick Barnes.....

In The Spiritual Life and How to Be Attuned to It, Saint Theophan the Recluse writes:

"Such a disposition of our soul [towards salvation] makes it ready for Divine
communion, and the grace of the Holy Spirit, which has acted hitherto from the outside by
arousing us, establishes itself within
, not directly, but through the means of a sacrament
[Mystery]. The believer repents, is baptized and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts
2:38). This is the very action of Divine communion—living and active."


The spiritual classic Unseen Warfare makes a similar statement:

"Thus teach the holy fathers. Saint Diadoch is the most definite among them, when he
says that before holy baptism Divine grace moves a man towards good from without,
while Satan is hidden in the depths of the heart and soul. But after a man has been
baptised, the demon hovers outside the heart, while grace enters within (Philokalia 4. 76).


Speaking of the manifestation of God’s Grace in the Holy Mysteries, Vladimir
Lossky writes:

"As He descended upon the disciples [at Pentecost] in tongues of fire, so the Holy Spirit
descends invisibly upon the newly-baptized in the sacrament of holy chrism. . . . The
Holy Spirit is operative in both sacraments. He recreates our nature by purifying it and
uniting it to the body of Christ. He also bestows deity—the common energy of the Holy
Trinity which is divine grace—upon human persons. It is on account of this intimate
connection between the two sacraments of baptism and [chrismation] that the uncreated
and deifying gift, which the descent of the Holy Spirit confers upon the members of the
Church, is frequently referred to as “baptismal grace.” . . .Baptismal grace, the presence
within us of the Holy Spirit… is the foundation of all Christian life."

The term “baptismal Grace,” also appropriately called “ecclesial Grace,” helps one
to keep in mind an important distinction in the way God relates to those within the
Church.


See
II. The Orthodox View of Grace
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox_ch2.pdf
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« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2011, 09:06:00 PM »

In the Holy Fathers is there a distinction made between the grace that saves and the grace that enlivens or animates?
Since He is One, I would think not.

So you say there is nothing in the holy fathers, desert or patristic, that makes a distinction between the grace that animates the soul and the grace that saves the soul...It is all the same action to the fathers?

If you examine the quotes in message 109 above, the grace that animates and the grace that saves is simply the one thing ...... it is God.  I know the West has categorised grace (sanctifying, actual, prevenient, etc.) but the distinctions have not been adopted in the East, probably because they see it as not possible to categorise God in His uncreated grace.
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« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2011, 09:10:45 PM »

In the Holy Fathers is there a distinction made between the grace that saves and the grace that enlivens or animates?
Since He is One, I would think not.

Here is Maximos the Confessor from the Philokalia,vol II, p.180-181.  I'll just use this as an example of what I am asking about.  I also think it will be useful for the OP:

Quote
#27.  The Holy Spirit is not absent from any created being, especially not from one which in any way participates in intelligence.  For being God and God's Spirit, He embraces in unity the spiritual knowledge of all created things, providentially permeating all things with His power, and vivifying [animating] their inner essence in accordance with their nature.  In this way, He makes men aware of things done sinfully against the law of nature, and renders them capable of choosing principles which are true and in conformity with nature. Thus, we find many barbarians and nomadic peoples turning to a civilized way of life and setting aside the savage laws which they had kept among themselves from time immemorial.

And then for the other actions of the grace of the Holy Spirit:

Quote
#28.  The Holy Spirit is present unconditionally in all things, in that he embraces all things, provides for all, and vivifies the natural seeds within them.  He is present in a specific way in all who are under the Law, in that He shows them where they have broken the commandments and enlightens them about the promise given concerning Christ. 

In all who are Christians [baptised into Christ] He is present in also yet another way in that he makes them sons of God. 

But in none is He fully present as the author of Wisdom except in those who have understanding, and who by their holy way of life have made themselves fit to receive His Indwelling and deifying presence.  For everyone who does not carry out the divine will, even though he is a believer, has a heart which, being the workshop of evil thoughts, lacks understanding, and a body which, being always entangled in the defilements of the passions, is mortgaged to sin.
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« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2011, 09:23:39 PM »



Here is Maximos the Confessor from the Philokalia,vol II, p.180-181.

Quote
#28.  The Holy Spirit is present unconditionally in all things, in that he embraces all things, provides for all, and vivifies the natural seeds within them.

Actually an important teaching with regard to creation and modern concerns for ecology. The Holy Spirit is "present unconditionally in all things, in that he embraces all things..." - humans, dogs, cows, insects, trees, rivers, stones.  
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