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Author Topic: Is Islam Really A Peaceful Religion?  (Read 7358 times) Average Rating: 0
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Orthodoc
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« on: September 04, 2004, 12:47:42 PM »

For those of you who are not faint hearted access the following website and scroll down.  You will see a picture of just the hand of a dead Russian child clutching her Orthodox Cross!  This picture brought tears to my eyes and will etched in my mind forever.

Dear Lord grant peace and rest to these poor innocent children!


http://www.drudgereport.com/

And scroll down.

Be prepared for tears!  This is another reason why I am so devoutly and fiercly Orthodox!

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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2004, 01:07:19 PM »

For those of you who are not faint hearted access the following website and scroll down.  You will see a picture of just the hand of a dead Russian child clutching her Orthodox Cross!  This picture brought tears to my eyes and will etched in my mind forever.

Dear Lord grant peace and rest to these poor innocent children!

http://www.drudgereport.com/
And scroll down.

Be prepared for tears!  This is another reason why I am so devoutly and fiercly Orthodox!
Orthodoc

Where's the picture?
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Orthodoc
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2004, 01:07:23 PM »



It looks like the picture has dissappeared from the site!  I would post it here but not without the OK from the moderators & instructions on how to do so.

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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2004, 09:50:46 PM »

Yes, I saw the terrible pictures coming from Beslan. They flooded the Irish and British media. What we do not see are the images of Chechen children. There is a terrible dilemma here. How do we address the phenomena of 'terrorism' without sacrificing the things we are supposed to hold dear. The rule of law, habeus corpus, free speech, equality before the law, universal suffrage?

My own reaction was initially was tears followed by a vengeful anger. But is this Christian? I do not mean you sit there like an emotionally incontinent pudding talking vaguely about 'turning the other cheek'. But some of the reactions I have seen and heard to this and the 'abortion' barge off Portugal is not 'righteous' anger - which belongs to God - but seems little different to the hate of the KKK or any other 'extremist' far left or right groups.

Indeed, I believe that any one who were to visit this website and not especially be empathetic to the viewpoints expressed would simply have their views reinforced, and perhaps conclude these Christians are actually quite dangerous and perhaps should be monitored by the security forces as potentially if not actually holding views incompatible with the desired moral ethos of a modern day secular society. Now before the apopletic Christian fraternity drop in on me, think. There are those in high places already saying this, in Europe for example. People who regard anyone holding absolute views on right and wrong, believe in God as creator, etc., as being religious 'fundamentalists'. That will include you and me too. (I have already had this made very clear to me and told there is not place in my profession for such 'extreme' views - and I am moderate). American southern Christians are frequently labelled as 'fundamentalist'. This same reductionist labell is applied to Moslems too. If we do not show a bit more continence about expressing our feelings a lot of others who are not empathetic to 'organised religion' are going to use what we say and write as evidence of marked anti-social and irresponsible tendencies; and they do have an agenda.

Does this matter. Well yes, because I believe the apopletic postings seen regularly and which some openly boast about seem to be contrary to every teaching of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2004, 04:36:56 PM »

Found it.  This girl apparently survived.  The caption reads: "An injured schoolgirl who escaped from the seized Russian school holds a cross in her hand in a hospital in Beslan, North Ossetia, Russia Friday, Sept. 3, 2004."

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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2004, 06:40:32 PM »

[Found it.  This girl apparently survived.  The caption reads: "An injured schoolgirl who escaped from the seized Russian school holds a cross in her hand in a hospital in Beslan, North Ossetia, Russia Friday, Sept. 3, 2004."]

Thanks for this information!

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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2004, 08:22:54 PM »

I think that Islam, like many religious ideologies, including The True Faith (Orthodoxy) have all been co-opted during the course of history as a means of justifying man's evil against his brother.  If we must ask whether or not Islam is a religion of peace, let's also ask whether or not Russia is an Orthodox nation (read your history on the Chechen conflict, and you'll understand what I mean).  You simply can't be this broad-based in such statements.  The Islam that sells on CNN isn't the Islam that a majority of the people practice.  Much like the fundamentalist protestant-fueled "to hell with 'em if they're not US (pun very much intended)" attitude fails to represent our Faith.  The people who did this were possessed by reciprocal evil, in other words, this is the product of an overt cycle, not up for debate.  The seeds for this horror were sewn long ago, and the people of both nations are bearing the brunt of schemes and treachery concocted by faithless men in power.
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2004, 09:13:21 PM »

[The seeds for this horror were sewn long ago, and the people of both nations are bearing the brunt of schemes and treachery concocted by faithless men in power. ]

Nothing, AND I MEAN NOTHING, justifies the deliberate murder of hundreds of innocent children!  Where is the outrage from the Moslem  world community?   Where was the outrage from the Moselm community or Hierachy after 911? What Moselm religious leader has spoken out against this?  

By their deeds they shall be known.  

Show me where in the Koran it advocates love and peace!

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2004, 10:28:01 PM »

The Islam that sells on CNN isn't the Islam that a majority of the people practice.  Much like the fundamentalist protestant-fueled "to hell with 'em if they're not US (pun very much intended)" attitude fails to represent our Faith.  The people who did this were possessed by reciprocal evil, in other words, this is the product of an overt cycle, not up for debate.  The seeds for this horror were sewn long ago, and the people of both nations are bearing the brunt of schemes and treachery concocted by faithless men in power.

I can agree that the guys who carried out this deranged act are not representative of the Muslim community, and most likely are not following the will of the majority of Muslims.  I work in a highly multicultural industry and have Muslim friends from whom I've witnessed as much outrage at this behavior as my non-Muslim associates.  No matter what one's quirky faith teaches, most people will exhibit a degree of decency and humanity towards their neighbors.

That said, one has to be careful in making equivocal statements on this behavior being the same as the behavior of the Russian government.  Despite its flaws, I don't see the the Russian government behaving anywhere close to this evil.  I know of no predominately Christian country, Russia included, that has this problem with death clubs seeking to murder on a mass scale and claiming they are merely fulfilling the tenets of the Christian faith.  Wherever the Islamic civilization is in contact with another non-Muslim culture, it initiates war and violence, without fail.  From the north in the Caucasus, in the east in India and southeastern Asia, in Africa in the south, to the Europe in the US in the west.  I've friends from Africa who've converted to Christianity but their families have to keep their faith secret in the villages back home because the Muslim majority will slaughter them in an instant if they found out.

Let's not seek out nuances for this behavior, as it's inexcusable.  Chechnya pretty much had de facto independence after the first Chechen war in 94-96.  The thugs in power tried to institute an Islamic regime, which ran counter to the people's will.  They then invaded neighboring Dagestan in an attempt to start a civil war there as well, and that's what precipitated the second Chechen war.  A small band of criminals began this conflict, and the Russian government has a right to protect its people and integrity of its borders against attack, just like any other civilized country under assault from those seeking its destruction.
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2004, 11:52:49 PM »

It has gone beyond just the borders of Chechya when al-quaida is suspected of financing this whole tragedy and arab and egyptian bodies are being found among those  that were the hostage-takers.

The cold callous dis-respect for human life whether from Fundementalist "Muslims" or even "Christians" that  murder abortion doctors/nurses must not be tolerated.  The rest of the muslim community need to speak up or be be seen as condoning this behaviour.

"Lord have Mercy"
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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2004, 02:51:32 AM »

I saw a news broadcast yesterday of the first funerals. One appeared to be that of an Christian Orthodox child and another that of a Moslem child. An informed observer with links to the region has said there is grief and outrage in all the neighbouring republics regardless of the majority religious population of each. So perhaps we who live at a great distance should not jump to quick conclusions based on the media reports available to us.

In Iraq the insurgents kill more local moslems than any other group, including Coalition troops. Sometimes we are selective in who and what we greave over. This may stem similarly from the thrust of our media reports which will emphazise Coalition casualties, or even American as opposed to other Coalition allies losses.
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2004, 03:29:10 AM »

Quote
I can agree that the guys who carried out this deranged act are not representative of the Muslim community, and most likely are not following the will of the majority of Muslims.
I disagree. You cannot separate the fruit from the tree.
Because of the lack of knowledge of arabic and the Islamic resources, the West is misled by the image Islamists try to give to their religion.
But by consulting the original books and texts and the interpretation of the Quran and know about the principle of "Abbrogation" (meaning: ALLAH changed his mind and replaces verses ) and knowing the Haddith, the question posted in this thread will be definitely put ot rest.

Also, reading the history and knowing how the very identity of North Africa, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq , Constantinople ( second Rome ) , which were flourishing christian places, was eradicated and christianity supressed there, will also ne helpul in assessing the true colors of Islam.

You guys never lived among Islamic majority where they practice Islam in its true version. I hope the West wakes up one day. But I do not believe it will ever happen until it is too late.

Peace,
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2004, 09:36:11 AM »

[The cold callous dis-respect for human life whether from Fundementalist "Muslims" or even "Christians" that  murder abortion doctors/nurses must not be tolerated.  The rest of the muslim community need to speak up or be be seen as condoning this behaviour.]

AMEN fellow parishioner!  I couldn't agree more.  Welcome to 'orthodoxchristianity.net.  

Since your avatar shows the inside of St Stephens and mine the outside, we have a good representation of what our wonderful parish looks like.  Maybe we can get JoeS to use a picture of the Chapel as his avatar!  Whata ya think?

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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2004, 11:50:28 AM »

I know of no predominately Christian country, Russia included, that has this problem with death clubs seeking to murder on a mass scale and claiming they are merely fulfilling the tenets of the Christian faith.  Wherever the Islamic civilization is in contact with another non-Muslim culture, it initiates war and violence, without fail.  From the north in the Caucasus, in the east in India and southeastern Asia, in Africa in the south, to the Europe in the US in the west.  I've friends from Africa who've converted to Christianity but their families have to keep their faith secret in the villages back home because the Muslim majority will slaughter them in an instant if they found out.

Russia is not a "predominately Christian country."
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2004, 12:05:53 PM »

[Russia is not a "predominately Christian country." ]

Sez who?  Care to give proof to back that up?

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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2004, 12:40:14 PM »

Okay, let me see if I can get this straight?  Are you seriously suggesting that Russia is a predominately Christian country?  

Is this is even a matter of debate?  

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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2004, 12:50:30 PM »

Frankly it's just plain silly to suggest that Russia is a Christian nation.  

http://www.roca.org/OA/122/122a.htm

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/pr/96_99/19178-2.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_russi.htm

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« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2004, 02:11:52 PM »

Finally.  A muslim cleric in Britain has come out with a clear statement about the use of children as hostages in response to the Beslan tragedy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml

 Cleric supports targeting children
By Rajeev Syal
(Filed: 05/09/2004)

An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.

Omar Bakri Mohammed, the spiritual leader of the extremist sect al-Muhajiroun, said that holding women and children hostage would be a reasonable course of action for a Muslim who has suffered under British rule.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Mohammed said: "If an Iraqi Muslim carried out an attack like that in Britain, it would be justified because Britain has carried out acts of terrorism in Iraq.

"As long as the Iraqi did not deliberately kill women and children, and they were killed in the crossfire, that would be okay."

Mr Mohammed, 44, who lives in Edmonton, north London, but is originally from Syria, also claimed that the Chechen rebels were not responsible for the deaths of more than 350 people - at least half of them children - who are so far known to have died in Beslan.

"The Mujahideen [Chechen rebels] would not have wanted to kill those people, because it is strictly forbidden as a Muslim to deliberately kill women and children. It is the fault of the Russians," he said.

The father of seven came to Britain in 1985 after being deported from Saudi Arabia because of his membership of a banned group. He has since been given leave by the Home Office to remain in Britain for five years but the Government is reviewing his status.

He gave an interview yesterday to promote a "celebratory" conference in London next Saturday to commemorate the third anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Andrew Dismore, the Labour MP for Hendon, was infuriated by Mr Mohammed's comments. "That sounds to me like incitement and I will report him to Scotland Yard," he said. "It is an insult to most moderate Muslims, who are sick of people like this claiming to represent them."
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2004, 02:26:52 PM »

No. Islam is not a peaceful religion.

http://answering-islam.org/TWOR/peacepromoting.html
http://muhammadanism.org/Government/Government_Sharia_Ideology.htm
http://answering-islam.org/t_root.html
http://muhammadanism.org/News/default.htm#Jihad
http://answering-islam.org/Terrorism/peace-loving.html
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/xstnc-6.html
http://answering-islam.org/Terrorism/islam_and_violence.html
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/tokill.shtml
http://answering-islam.org/Bailey/jihad.html
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/islamicterrorism.shtml
http://answering-islam.org/Hahn/jihad.htm
http://www.islamreview.com/articles/terrorofislam.shtml
http://answering-islam.org/Terrorism/agenda.html
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-pact-of-umar.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Terrorism/by_the_sword.html
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-muhammad-seeds-terrorism.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Silas/terrorism.htm
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-korans-battle-cry.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Terrorism/peace_concept.html
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-jihad.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Books/Hughes/jihad.htm
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« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2004, 02:41:08 PM »

Jennifer writes:

[Okay, let me see if I can get this straight? Are you seriously suggesting that Russia is a predominately Christian country?

Is this is even a matter of debate?]

-----------------

REPLY-

Yes I am saying that Russia is a Christian country.  Going by what you give as examples (Ref: http://www.roca.org/OA/122/122a.htmQuote:  "Only 29 percent of the population hold the Christian faith).

 Then you would also have to say that most of western europe are no longer christain countries.  A 29% church attendance is higher than than both England and France for instance.

While Christianity is dying in the west where there is a shortage of priests, nuns, and monks and empty churches are closing daily the opposite is true in Russia where there is definitely a revival of Orthodox Christianity -

Current statistics from the Moscow Patriarchate -

THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH TODAY
The Russian Orthodox Church is the largest religious association in our country. At present it has 128 dioceses in various regions of Russia and in far and near abroad. Since 1990 the Russian Church has been led by His holiness Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia,. the 15th patriarch in its history, who governs together with the Holy Synod. In the Russian Orthodox Church today there are 128 dioceses (for comparison, there were 67 diocese in 1989), 19000 parishes (6893 in 1988), and nearly 480 monasteries (18 in 1980). These figures point vividly to an all-round revival of church life taking place under the primatial leadership of His Holiness Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia. The pastoral service is carried out by 150 bishops, 17500 priests and 2300 deacons. The network of educational Orthodox institutions is directed by the Education Committee. At present there are 5 theological academies (there were 2 in 1991), 26 seminaries (there were 3 in 1988), and 29 pre-seminaries, which did not exist at all till the 90s. There are two Orthodox universities, a Theological Institute, a women's pre-seminary, and 28 icon-painting schools. The total number of theological students including those of the correspondence departments is about 6000 people. Educational institutions have been established to develop religious education among the laity. This important work is coordinated by the Department for Religious Education and Catechism. There is a variety of forms in which religious education and catechization of lay people are carried out, including Sunday schools at churches, circles for adults, groups for preparing adults for baptism, Orthodox kindergartens, Orthodox groups in state-run kindergartens, Orthodox gymnasia, schools, lyceums, and Orthodox courses for teachers of catechism. Sunday school has been the most popular form of catechism. In the field of charity the work is carried out on all-church level through the Department for Church Charity and Social Service. It is necessary to mention in the first place a number of successfully functioning medical programs. A special mention should be made of the Moscow Patriarchate's Central Hospital of St. Alexis the Metropolitan of Moscow. In the situation where healthcare is becoming commercial, this medical institution is one of the few clinics in Moscow which provide free medical check-up and treatment. A psychiatric service has been set up at the Mental Health Center of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences. It gives free help to persons sent by parishes in the Moscow diocese. These are only a few examples of concrete work carried out by the above-mentioned Department. In December 1990 the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church decided to establish a church youth organization. This decision led to the First Congress of Orthodox Youth which set up an All-Church Orthodox Youth Movement as an official youth organization established by the Russian Orthodox Church. The tasks which the Movement set itself at that time were to attract children, adolescents and young people who sought their way to church in the fold of the Russian Orthodox Church and to unite groups of young Orthodox Christians under programs of social service, restoration of monasteries and churches, pilgrimages and contacts with young Christians in other countries. The external contacts of the Russian Orthodox Church are supervised by the Department for External Church Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate. It tasks include the following: - to provide hierarchical and financial administration over dioceses, monasteries, parishes and other institutions of our Church in far abroad; - to prepare decisions for the church authorities concerning church-state and church-society relations; - to maintain relations of the Russian Orthodox Church with Local Orthodox Churches, non-Orthodox Churches and religious associations, non-Christian religions, religious and secular international organizations, public, political, social, cultural, academic, economic, financial and other institutions, as well as mass media.

++++++++++

Now, can you compare that to the church attendance statistics in  any country in western europe?

Religious Statistics for Western Europe


===================================

United Kingdom:

Religious Statistics -


 New statistic 2004: 24% Atheist; 11% Agnostic; 18% Deist; 3% Hinduist, Sikh or Muslim; 16% Neodoukhobor; 5% Pseudoatheist according to the previous computations with the ISSP; 23% Christian (Anglican, Protestant, Catholic), group practicing and conservative

Note: I guess we can even say that England is less Christain than Russia.

==========

Belgium:

New statistic (Approximative): 1/10 Atheist; 1/5 Agnostic; 2% Muslim; 12% Deist;
 13% Christian deist; 12% New Age; 4% Neodoukhobor; 15% Pseudochristian (acc. WVS) and Catholic the 11% surely.

Note: Same with Belgium

==========

France:

- New statistic 2004: 14% atheist; 25% agnostic; 4% Muslim Deist; 27% Christian Deist; 6% pseudoatheist; 1% Muslim; 1% pseudo-Sikh; 15.5% neodoukhobor; 5.5% Catholic (!).


Note: Definitely France!!!

===========

And how about Germany!

- New statistic: 23% Atheist; 16% Agnostic; 16% Deist; 5% Christian deist; 5% Pseudoatheist; 2% Muslim; 18% Neodoukhobor; 14% Christian (surely 6% Catholic, 8% Protestant).

==========

Conclusion: After 77+ tears of religious persecution that was not experienced in western europe.... Russia isn't any less Christain than any other supposedly Christian nation in western europe!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2004, 02:58:09 PM »

Islam is a religion that was spread by the sword.

Muhamed's Army slaughtered untold thousands. He personally slaughtered unarmed people who had surrendered but refused to convert.

This bloody tradition carries on today. But for two conflicts in the world today (Nepal and Columbia), every major conflict involves Muslims.

Until all Islam reforms...we will be cursed with the presence of their vile faith and bloody hate-filled traditions....

Lord Have Mercy.
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« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2004, 04:08:50 PM »

What is "Neodoukhobor"?
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« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2004, 04:20:21 PM »

Jennifer writes:


Yes I am saying that Russia is a Christian country.  Going by what you give as examples (Ref: http://www.roca.org/OA/122/122a.htmQuote:  "Only 29 percent of the population hold the Christian faith).

 Then you would also have to say that most of western europe are no longer christain countries.  A 29% church attendance is higher than than both England and France for instance.


Who said anything about England or France?  

Russia is not a predominately Christian country.  France is not a predominately Christian country.  England is not a predominately Christian country.  

Didn't bother to read the rest of your post.  

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« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2004, 04:37:23 PM »

Here is some data collected by a Russian Polling organization..  Clearly 60 percent of the people of Russia identify themselves with Christianity (58% Orthodox, 2% other Chrisitian), which in my book, would make it a predominantly Christian country.

More than two-thirds of respondents to a recent survey by the All-Russia Center for the Study of Public Opinion (VTsIOM) claimed to be adherents to one or another religious confession, Izvestiya reported on 25 August. According to the survey, 58 percent of respondents declared themselves Orthodox believers, while 5 percent said they were Muslims and less than 2 percent said they belonged to non-Orthodox Christian confessions. Thirty-one percent declared themselves atheists. Of those who said that they believe in God, 60 percent said that they had never read any biblical text. Of those who claimed to be Orthodox believers, 42 percent said that they had never been in an Orthodox church, while another 31 percent said that they went to church "not more than once a year." "The biggest difference between believers and nonbelievers is not how often they go to church, but whether or not they pray to God," said VTsIOM sociologist Aleksandr Golov.
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« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2004, 04:55:26 PM »

I think you guys are really reaching here.  Obviously there are differing statistics out there about the religiosity of Russians.  However, it is definitely reaching to suggest that Russia is a Christian country.  

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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2004, 06:00:46 PM »

Well Jennifer, I'm not sure what your point is or what is motivating you, however Russia used to called "Holy Rus" That was before Orthodoxy was assaulted by the Godless communist, who lost power only a short time ago. Most Russian had been Orthodox Christians, before Churches where destroyed and people killed which was the goal of communism relative to the Orthodox Church. Surely had not the communist and others risen up against Orthodoxy, I might add Russia would still be mostly Orthodox. Would you please tell us with some sort of factual support what it is if not predominately Christian country at this time?

In Christ,

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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2004, 06:29:06 PM »

I think you guys are really reaching here.  Obviously there are differing statistics out there about the religiosity of Russians.  However, it is definitely reaching to suggest that Russia is a Christian country.  

What's reaching about 60% of Russians identifying themselves as being Christian?  That's a clear majority.  I have cited statistics from the most prominent polling agency in Russia.  YOU are the one who's reaching, as I don't see any data cited by you to support your claim to the contrary other than your "belief".
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2004, 06:48:52 PM »

[Would you please tell us with some sort of factual support what it is if not predominately Christian country at this time? ]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for her to support her oulandish claims if I were you Matthew.  Notice how she side steps the facts presented.

Perhaps she can tell us what countries she thinks are predominately Christian if Russia isn't.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2004, 07:04:12 PM »

   RUSSIA

    - 147.700.000 inhab.
    - Usual data: In Time (1996), the affiliation is 71.8% Orthodox, 5.5 Muslim, 1.8% Catholic, 0.7% Protestant, 0.6% Buddhist,
      0.3% Jewish, 18.9% without. In The World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, Oxford University Press) appears: Christians
      57.4% (as Orthodox the 49.3%, in the Russian independent churches 5.3%, as Protestants 1.1%, as Roman Catholics
      1.9% and a remainder of the 0.6%); nonreligious 27.5%; Muslims 7.6%; Atheists 5.2%; Ethnoreligionists 0.8%; Jews 0.7%;
      Hindus 0.5%; Buddhists 0.4%.
    - Data: Seven million in traditional muslim ethnicites (1995). In '98 census the 8.5% muslim, 1% animist, 0.5% Catholic.
      Interesting note: The Kalmucs are the unique Buddhist ethnicity in Europe (since the XVIII century).
      The National Opinion Research Center: Russians declared Orthodox 50% (1993), but many by fashion or nationalism,
      item percentage believed in god, 40% believed in the other life (compare it with the data about Russia  reported in
      the Genaral Data ), but 8% go at the church once per month min.
      Reported by Tony Carnes (Urban Mission #13): The Russian Center of Public Opinion Research (VTZIOM) 1993
      found: 41% think they are Orthodox, 10% attend the church at least once at month, 41% believe in Jesus is the
      Son of God (38% among the Orthodox).

Orthodoc
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2004, 07:05:28 PM »

Ummmm I posted several links citing statistics that the majority of Russians are not Christians.  There's this button on your browser called the "page up" button.  I suggest you try it out.  

Matthew, "what might have been" is not the same as "what is."  Yes, Russia was Christian but it's not anymore.  

I think this desire to believe that Russia is a "predominately Christian country" borders on the pathological.  Why the need?  Why is it so important to you to believe that most Russians are Christian?  

It's bizarre.  

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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2004, 08:09:48 PM »

[It's bizarre. ]

What bizarre is the fact that the statistics provided in the websites you gave are much higher than any so called western european Christian country.  And this after 77+ years of religious persecution which didn't occur in western europe.

What is bizarre is that it has been pointed out to you that the Church is growing by leaps and bounds in Russia while it is dying in western europe.

What's bizarre is that you do not address the questions put to you but side step them.  You wouldn't be a lawyer by any chance, would you?

Once again, provide us with a list of countries in western europe you still consider Christian and will will compare  statistics.

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« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2004, 10:11:52 PM »

[It's bizarre. ]

What bizarre is the fact that the statistics provided in the websites you gave are much higher than any so called western european Christian country.  And this after 77+ years of religious persecution which didn't occur in western europe.

Orthodoc, once again we're not talking about Western Europe.  We're talking about Russia.  The statistics I cited indicate that Russia is not a "predominately Christian country."  

Quote
What is bizarre is that it has been pointed out to you that the Church is growing by leaps and bounds in Russia while it is dying in western europe.

Again, we're not talking about Western Europe.  You know, you have western Catholicism on the brain.  To you, everything is about Roman Catholicism.  If that's not pathological, then I don't know what is.  

And the "growing by leaps and bounds" thing is just funny.  It's true but it doesn't mean anything.  

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What's bizarre is that you do not address the questions put to you but side step them.  You wouldn't be a lawyer by any chance, would you?

I admit that I didn't read your posts carefully so probably missed some of your questions.  

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Once again, provide us with a list of countries in western europe you still consider Christian and will will compare  statistics.

Third times a charm.  We are not talking about Western Europe.  Let's repeat that, we're not talking about Western Europe.  

But to answer your question, off the top of my head and without resorting to a silly fight about statistics, the only country in western Europe that I'd consider to be "predominatey Christian" is the Vatican.  

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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2004, 10:15:48 PM »

That said, one has to be careful in making equivocal statements on this behavior being the same as the behavior of the Russian government.  Despite its flaws, I don't see the the Russian government behaving anywhere close to this evil.  I know of no predominately Christian country, Russia included, that has this problem with death clubs seeking to murder on a mass scale and claiming they are merely fulfilling the tenets of the Christian faith.  

It's not quite correct to say that people from "predominately Christian countries" don't engage in this kind of barbarism.  Look at the pogroms, especially the one in 1905.  Often with de facto support of the clergy.  

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« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2004, 10:34:51 PM »

[But to answer your question, off the top of my head and without resorting to a silly fight about statistics, the only country in western Europe that I'd consider to be "predominatey Christian" is the Vatican. ]

Considering the news items regarding the RCC and its leader these last few years, that can be up for debate.

I just finished reading your last fifty posts and you seem very much against organized religion yet you spend so much time in religious discussion groups.  Are you a practicing Roman Catholic?

What is your purpose for being here?

Orthodoc

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« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2004, 10:46:48 PM »

[But to answer your question, off the top of my head and without resorting to a silly fight about statistics, the only country in western Europe that I'd consider to be "predominatey Christian" is the Vatican. ]

Considering the news items regarding the RCC and its leader these last few years, that can be up for debate.

But they're "predominately Christian."  

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I just finished reading your last fifty posts and you seem very much against organized religion yet you spend so much time in religious discussion groups.  Are you a practicing Roman Catholic?

Now that's a little creepy.  You honestly have nothing better to do with your time?  

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What is your purpose for being here?

What is your purpose for being here?
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« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2004, 11:00:04 PM »

[What is your purpose for being here? ]

Another question side stepped.  I asked first!

Orthodoc

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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2004, 11:31:39 PM »

Is someone trolling here?

JoeS  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2004, 11:57:31 PM »

[What is your purpose for being here? ]

Another question side stepped.  I asked first!

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« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2004, 12:31:41 AM »

« Last Edit: September 07, 2004, 12:32:04 AM by Cap'n Roberto » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2004, 03:03:31 AM »

I had two observations:

Why did a topic that was intended to discuss the human disaster at Russia become a question of identifying Russia's religious identity,orthodox or not ?

The british cleric who endorsed killing children and taking them hostages for a just cause, did the "user-friendly" british government remove him from the country ( he should be removed from life) ?

How liberal can liberals become ?

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« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2004, 08:38:13 AM »

Here is some data collected by a Russian Polling organization..  Clearly 60 percent of the people of Russia identify themselves with Christianity (58% Orthodox, 2% other Chrisitian), which in my book, would make it a predominantly Christian country.

Well, you can get similar numbers for England too.  It's all part of a general European pattern of lip service to the established church and pretty low actual participation. The difference in numbers between the English and the Russians is merely a matter of degree within this pattern.
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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2004, 09:19:02 AM »



My thoughts exactly.
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« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2004, 02:43:21 PM »

Well, you can get similar numbers for England too.  It's all part of a general European pattern of lip service to the established church and pretty low actual participation. The difference in numbers between the English and the Russians is merely a matter of degree within this pattern.

I agree with you, although the numbers in Russia seem to be trending in the opposite direction of those in western Europe.  In spite of England's weak numbers I would still consider England to be a predominantly Christian country as far as individual faith identification is concerned.  After all, England still has as it's officially established religion the C of E.  Of course Jennifer appears to have an aversion to acknowledging statistical evidence to the contrary of her arguements.  

Note to Jennfier (and the rest of us at times):  Stubbornly clinging to arguements in the face of opposing evidence to the contrary makes one look foolish.  Conceding a minor point here and there doesn't destroy our credibilty, but to the contrary shows we are capable of learning and understanding.   I acknowledge that your gut instinct is likely born from your impression of the effects of 70 years of atheistic Communism on Russia.  In fact, it appears that Christianity has been stronger and more resilient than we would have previously thought, and the statistics bear this out.
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« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2004, 02:58:34 PM »

Why did a topic that was intended to discuss the human disaster at Russia become a question of identifying Russia's religious identity,orthodox or not ?

The question turned to the issue of "Muslims preying on Christians," which is a common dichotomy raised in situations like these...an "us vs. them" mentality.

Jennifer, though, raises a good point, I think...at the very least, I DON'T think she's being a troll...while the predominant religion of a country may or may not be Christianity, it's wrong, I think, to make this a faith vs. faith issue, especially since, 1) as Jennifer has pointed out, modern Russia =/= Christian (even though it may be closer thereto than Europe does not make it so in and of itself), and 2) the terrorists carrying out these monstrosities, while they are indeed violently loyal to their faith, do not care one bit whether the people they are attacking are devout or secular or anything else.  Jennifer made a point that has gone unanswered to anyone's satisfaction, so we probably ought to agree to disagree.  I think, however, she shouldn't be called a troll for asking an honest question simply because it might make some uncomfortable.

Respectfully,

Pedro
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« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2004, 03:08:09 PM »

But the care , Pedro, about the identity of the prey. You do not find muslims falling prey to terror attacks. The islamic world in large sees the West fight against terrorism and Russia's struggle against the islamic terrorists in Chechneya as christians versus muslim issue, even if those christians are not devout or even do not care.

This is very clear from listening to islamic preacher in the Arab World (and in the West) in arabic. These terrorists are not an exception of islamic world. You never hear any condemnation of terrorism in the islamic World in the street.

It has to do with faith. Big time.  
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