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Author Topic: Pope Benedict Peace Message Calls For Wealth Redistribution  (Read 3508 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2011, 05:29:36 PM »


Aid for the care of HIV/AIDS victims in Orthodox communities from African communities to central Europe, Romania in particular but I don't have a reference at hand.


Well of course that is wonderful that Catholics are assisting those suffering from AIDS but it is a bit peculiar to see that as Catholic aid to the Orthodox Church.  The Presbyterian Church here runs programmes in Nepal for cataract sufferers but I don't imagine they see that as aid to the Buddhist religion.

The money is given to Orthodox institutions to aid Orthodox believers. 

Nevermind...!!

On behalf of all those Orthodox sufferers who benefit from the provision of Catholic money I salute you and say thank you.    The Catholic Church being the richest Church in the world, this is a wonderful example of 'wealth redistribution."
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« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2011, 05:50:47 PM »


Aid for the care of HIV/AIDS victims in Orthodox communities from African communities to central Europe, Romania in particular but I don't have a reference at hand.


Well of course that is wonderful that Catholics are assisting those suffering from AIDS but it is a bit peculiar to see that as Catholic aid to the Orthodox Church.  The Presbyterian Church here runs programmes in Nepal for cataract sufferers but I don't imagine they see that as aid to the Buddhist religion.

The money is given to Orthodox institutions to aid Orthodox believers. 

Nevermind...!!

On behalf of all those Orthodox sufferers who benefit from the provision of Catholic money I salute you and say thank you.    The Catholic Church being the richest Church in the world, this is a wonderful example of 'wealth redistribution."

That is very kind of you.
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« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2011, 05:55:26 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.
This is bogus reasoning.

Sorry that I'm not a sheeple. 
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« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2011, 06:02:39 PM »

I just looked up the stats.  In Romania 0.074% of the population have the disease.
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« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2011, 06:36:11 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
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« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2011, 06:40:33 PM »

I just looked up the stats.  In Romania 0.074% of the population have the disease.

Higher if you include Moldava and the vast majority of them present as infants with HIV-AIDS.  It's been pretty horrible for the past few decades and Romania has not been in a position to manage alone.  Here's an older but excellent article that tracks the work and the improvements.  God willing there will be more improvements and increasingly fewer new cases:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/528693
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« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2011, 06:41:07 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it.  

lulz @ this. But you will use the government to enforce all other Hebrew / Christian morality, like abortion, murder, and the like.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 06:41:20 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2011, 06:52:29 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it.  

lulz @ this. But you will use the government to enforce all other Hebrew / Christian morality, like abortion, murder, and the like.
Hold on just a minute here! police Bigsinner said nothing about the use of government authority except to state his opposition to government-enforced redistribution programs, which means you're putting words into his mouth to build up a straw man image of his arguments. The subjects of abortion, murder, and "the like" are also off topic for this thread.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 06:53:33 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2011, 06:55:00 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it.  

lulz @ this. But you will use the government to enforce all other Hebrew / Christian morality, like abortion, murder, and the like.
Hold on just a minute here! police Bigsinner said nothing about the use of governmental authority except to state his opposition to government-enforced redistribution programs, which means you're putting words into his mouth to build up a straw man image of his arguments. The subjects of abortion, murder, and "the like" are also off topic for this thread.

Your understanding of rhetoric doesn't encompass all.

It is not a straw man.

If he doesn't agree, he can respond.
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« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2011, 06:59:25 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it.  

lulz @ this. But you will use the government to enforce all other Hebrew / Christian morality, like abortion, murder, and the like.
Hold on just a minute here! police Bigsinner said nothing about the use of governmental authority except to state his opposition to government-enforced redistribution programs, which means you're putting words into his mouth to build up a straw man image of his arguments. The subjects of abortion, murder, and "the like" are also off topic for this thread.

Your understanding of rhetoric doesn't encompass all.

It is not a straw man.

If he doesn't agree, he can respond.
But the discussion you seem to want is still off topic.
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« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2011, 07:07:15 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".
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« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2011, 07:11:00 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".
But what does Caesar have the right to claim for his own?
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« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2011, 07:14:04 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it.  

lulz @ this. But you will use the government to enforce all other Hebrew / Christian morality, like abortion, murder, and the like.
Hold on just a minute here! police Bigsinner said nothing about the use of government authority except to state his opposition to government-enforced redistribution programs, which means you're putting words into his mouth to build up a straw man image of his arguments. The subjects of abortion, murder, and "the like" are also off topic for this thread.

 Agreed.  This comment made absolutely no sense as the poster was against government intervention.
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« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2011, 07:18:45 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".

Taxes didnt approach 90% as they do in modern socialist countries.  Christ could have simply said in this case, "Render EVERYTHING material to Caesar!" 
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« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2011, 07:23:58 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".
That was for the defense budget and law enforcement.
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« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2011, 07:25:09 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".
But what does Caesar have the right to claim for his own?

I tend to believe all things are God's.  

Anyways, I'd just like to make one quick statement.  To those who do support wealth redistribution, by way of government, know that this is not charity.  You are not being charitable by supporting these programs.  You are not be charitable if the government takes your money and gives it to someone else.  Now, this does not mean that it is a bad thing; but all too often, people who support wealth redistribution seem to think advocating for government money for the poor makes them charitable people.  Anything given out of compulsion is not charity.
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« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2011, 07:31:55 PM »

Wealth Redistribution and the Principles of Christianity

 That is not meant to be an affront to you or to any other Americans on list.
After all, my own ideas on this are themselves grounded in my own New
Zealand culture which is derived from that of Great Britain, but I would
contend that my country's way of dealing with issues of poverty and the like
is a much better outworking of Christianity than the American way. In other
words Christian principles are more deeply embedded in New Zealand's social
and political structures than they are in the US.

This country, and many Commonwealth countries, is orientated towards the
common weal. We see the duty of Government as primarily that of managing
the country for the common good of the entire populace. In order to achieve
this common weal we cheerfully hand over our taxes. And while there is
nothing to prevent a man becoming immensely rich there is, thank God, a
government policy which protects a man from becoming obscenely poor.


But this is *not* the view of American government, at least among those who
hold to the original founding of the US. Your Declaration of Independence
specifically states, "...Governments are instituted among men to preserve
these rights..." In other words, you did *not* see government as managing
the country or imposing a blue print; you saw it as the means to guarantee
people liberty. It is a very different concept.

Neither concept of government is in and of itself Christian, but I would
argue that government established for the common weal is more Christian than
government focused on personal liberty.

Now the NZ (and Commonwealth) approach is all based on a legacy of English
church/state established relationships with a dollop of 19th century Methodist
good works thrown in and this has spread out to the Commonwealth so I can
see how the American culture of separation of Church and State with the pot
of wholesome libertarianism thrown in (I always find your libertarian take on things
intriguing, and sometimes frightening - but always fascinating to read!) can
be horrified by the thought of actively engaging in ‘wealth redistribution.”

But for us social security provision ("wealth redistribution") as a safety net
to help the most needy, and a free health care system for all is a Christian
response and a Christian use of our taxes.

Now as Church and State drift further apart it remains to be seen if that
partnership will continue but I still argue that we in New Zealand (and
perhaps slightly less now in the UK) enjoy a culture where people have
invested into the state the outworking of its Christian principles(getting
more and more diluted of course but still there) as the basis of its law and
care for its citizens.

In my experience, the people who extol the dignity and sense of self-worth
to be found in grinding labour for miserable pay, no health care
and no future have themselves experienced none of those things.

Do the principles and values  advocated by the Neo-classical Capitalists (self-reliance,
entrepreneurship, success as the achievement of wealth, etc.) mesh with what
we read in Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and the Saints? Or do they
contradict the sources of our faith?

Can one be a true Christian and a social Darwinist?

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"If they will not work, neither shall they eat."
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« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2011, 07:36:29 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".
But what does Caesar have the right to claim for his own?

I tend to believe all things are God's.  

Anyways, I'd just like to make one quick statement.  To those who do support wealth redistribution, by way of government, know that this is not charity.  You are not being charitable by supporting these programs.  You are not be charitable if the government takes your money and gives it to someone else.  Now, this does not mean that it is a bad thing; but all too often, people who support wealth redistribution seem to think advocating for government money for the poor makes them charitable people.  Anything given out of compulsion is not charity.
"Socialism is great-until you run out of someone else's money."-Lady Margaret Thatcher.
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« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2011, 07:41:05 PM »

Isn't that old hag dead yet? go meet her admirer, the late Christopher Hitchens.
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« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2011, 07:51:45 PM »

Isn't that old hag dead yet? go meet her admirer, the late Christopher Hitchens.
I don't know if she is dead, but her words are immortal.

As I brought up on another thread, compare the Erie Canal and the Danube Canal on the prospective merits of capitalism and socialism.
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« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2011, 08:16:22 PM »

The Pope makes a statement quite in line with Christian faith and immediately goes the ol' American telling others to mine their beams (in this case motes really).

Your post agrees with my impression as well.


Quote
It genuinely grieves me the behavior of the RCC in handling the sexual abuse cases not just for the cases in themselves, but to the degree they undermine the incredible gift the RCC has given the world, does, and still could.

And this was/is my feeling as well.

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« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2011, 08:26:31 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".
But what does Caesar have the right to claim for his own?

The Christian Caesars in Constantinople claimed the right to exact taxes and to redistribute some of this wealth for the social welfare of their people.

The Byzantine State used taxes to run

Gerocomeia - homes for the aged

Xenotapheia -provided funerals for poor citizens and strangers

Orphanotropheia - orphanages

Ptocheia - homes for the poor

(Forget the Greek word) - homes for reformed prostitutes.

Modern Christian Governments do well to follow the example of the greatest of all Christian cities which strove to be an icon of the heavenly Jerusalem.
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« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2011, 08:31:22 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".
But what does Caesar have the right to claim for his own?

The Christian Caesars in Constantinople claimed the right to exact taxes and to redistribute some of this wealth for the social welfare of their people.

The Byzantine State used taxes to run

Gerocomeia - homes for the aged

Xenotapheia -provided funerals for poor citizens and strangers

Orphanotropheia - orphanages

Ptocheia - homes for the poor

(Forget the Greek word) - homes for reformed prostitutes.

Modern Christian Governments do well to follow the example of the greatest of all Christian cities which strove to be an icon of the heavenly Jerusalem.
No, Father: no emperor claimed taxes to redistribute wealth.  They claimed it as their right as sovereign, and they gave it out as charity as God's chosen son of the Church.  That was the charity of the emperor, but not of those whom he taxed.
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« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2011, 08:39:45 PM »

I've got an idea. It's simple, and has something for both sides in this dispute.

How about the Vatican donate X percent of the take of tourism at its museum and other sites to charity every year? Maybe $1 from every ticket. Or 50c. Whatever is the equivalent. A lot of people go there every year. It'll add up.

See? We can do both, and nobody lost an eye.  Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2011, 08:39:57 PM »

"If they will not work, neither shall they eat."

I do not see what this has to do with the discussion? The difference between refusal to work and inability to work.

This does not apply to those who cannot work - who would leave the soldier paralysed by a landmine to starve to death because he cannot work?  The police dog blinded by a criminal - left to starve because he cannot work?
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« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2011, 08:47:34 PM »

I've got an idea. It's simple, and has something for both sides in this dispute.

How about the Vatican donate X percent of the take of tourism at its museum and other sites to charity every year? Maybe $1 from every ticket. Or 50c. Whatever is the equivalent. A lot of people go there every year. It'll add up.

See? We can do both, and nobody lost an eye.  Smiley

If I'm not mistaken, the Vatican makes almost nothing off the fees for museums.  Virtually all the intake is used for upkeep.
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« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2011, 08:50:01 PM »

At the risk of offending anyone involved in this Orthodox/Catholic **ssing contest, I'd like to return to the Pope's statement per the OP.  If I recall, Jesus told the rich man to sell his property, give it to the poor, and follow Him.  Jesus did not tell anyone to use governmental authority to take property from everyone and redistribute it. 
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar".
But what does Caesar have the right to claim for his own?

The Christian Caesars in Constantinople claimed the right to exact taxes and to redistribute some of this wealth for the social welfare of their people.

The Byzantine State used taxes to run

Gerocomeia - homes for the aged

Xenotapheia -provided funerals for poor citizens and strangers

Orphanotropheia - orphanages

Ptocheia - homes for the poor

(Forget the Greek word) - homes for reformed prostitutes.

Modern Christian Governments do well to follow the example of the greatest of all Christian cities which strove to be an icon of the heavenly Jerusalem.
No, Father: no emperor claimed taxes to redistribute wealth.  They claimed it as their right as sovereign, and they gave it out as charity as God's chosen son of the Church.  That was the charity of the emperor, but not of those whom he taxed.

Now we get to talk about what "is" is...
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« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2011, 08:56:01 PM »

Taxes didnt approach 90% as they do in modern socialist countries. 

I live in a country New Zealand with a highly developed social welfare system.  Here are our tax rates...

2011–2012
 
Income.....................Tax rate
 
$0 – $14,000............. 10.5%
 
$14,001 – $48,000..... 17.5%
 
$48,001 – $70,000..... 30%
 
Over $70,000............. 33%
 
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« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2011, 09:03:49 PM »

The Pope makes a statement quite in line with Christian faith and immediately goes the ol' American telling others to mine their beams (in this case motes really).
I understand your angst. We Americans see the words "wealth redistribution", and immediately the little red flags pop up in our minds saying "taxation, government, and the like". Wealth redistribution actually does not require that the government get involved, though, so the connection is artificial. If the wealthy among us wish to give generously of their wealth to the poor or to non-government organizations whose mission is to serve the poor, then I say more power to them! I would like to see all the wealthy give generously and freely like this, even to the last penny if they so desire. (I just don't believe it charitable for the government to take from the rich so she can give to the poor, since such taking engenders a spirit of resentment, not a spirit of cheerful generosity.)
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« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2011, 09:06:50 PM »

Taxes didnt approach 90% as they do in modern socialist countries. 

I live in a country New Zealand with a highly developed social welfare system.  Here are our tax rates...

2011–2012
 
Income.....................Tax rate
 
$0 – $14,000............. 10.5%
 
$14,001 – $48,000..... 17.5%
 
$48,001 – $70,000..... 30%
 
Over $70,000............. 33%
 

Father, since we are playing that game (not started by you, I note) could we please have these figures amended to include GST, other forms of sales and consumption tax, luxury taxes, land tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, other forms of payable duty, estate/death taxes, inheritance taxes, probate taxes, &c., &c.?

Also, can we please explain why someone earning NZ$70K should pay the same rate of income tax as someone earning multiple millions? As usual, it appears that there is a band of people somewhere around the middle who are disproportionately shouldering the tax burden.

Disclaimers:

1. Apologies for attempting to set the agenda of this discussion but these two points above particularly irk me.
2. I would not and do not question the faith and piety of those who take a contrary view to my own on these points.
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« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2011, 09:11:53 PM »

Taxes didnt approach 90% as they do in modern socialist countries. 

I live in a country New Zealand with a highly developed social welfare system.  Here are our tax rates...

2011–2012
 
Income.....................Tax rate
 
$0 – $14,000............. 10.5%
 
$14,001 – $48,000..... 17.5%
 
$48,001 – $70,000..... 30%
 
Over $70,000............. 33%
 

Father, since we are playing that game (not started by you, I note) could we please have these figures amended to include GST, other forms of sales and consumption tax, luxury taxes, land tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, other forms of payable duty, estate/death taxes, inheritance taxes, probate taxes, &c., &c.?

Also, can we please explain why someone earning NZ$70K should pay the same rate of income tax as someone earning multiple millions? As usual, it appears that there is a band of people somewhere around the middle who are disproportionately shouldering the tax burden.

Disclaimers:

1. Apologies for attempting to set the agenda of this discussion but these two points above particularly irk me.
2. I would not and do not question the faith and piety of those who take a contrary view to my own on these points.
I suggest that what you want may venture too much into politics for the context of this discussion. You may wish to take this question to the Politics board and see if Fr. Ambrose would be willing to follow you there.
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« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2011, 09:18:30 PM »

(I just don't believe it charitable for the government to take from the rich so she can give to the poor, since such taking engenders a spirit of resentment, not a spirit of cheerful generosity.)

In reality, the Christan countries of the Western  world (but not the US?) use taxation for social welfare needs ("redistribution of wealth" in this context.)   Is there a spirit of resentment in those countries among the rich and influential?  If so why have they not used the ballot box to rid themselves of a resented system?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 09:21:06 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2011, 09:23:50 PM »

(I just don't believe it charitable for the government to take from the rich so she can give to the poor, since such taking engenders a spirit of resentment, not a spirit of cheerful generosity.)

In reality, the Christan countries of the Western  world (but not the US?) use taxation for social welfare needs ("redistribution of wealth" in this context.)   Is there a spirit of resentment in those countries among the rich and influential?
I don't know. You tell me.

If so why have they not used the ballot box to rid themselves of a resented system?
It stands to reason that if the rich make up only a minority of the voters, then they will never succeed at using the ballot box to rid themselves of the system they resent, for the poor will always have more votes.
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« Reply #78 on: December 18, 2011, 09:39:18 PM »

(I just don't believe it charitable for the government to take from the rich so she can give to the poor, since such taking engenders a spirit of resentment, not a spirit of cheerful generosity.)

In reality, the Christan countries of the Western  world (but not the US?) use taxation for social welfare needs ("redistribution of wealth" in this context.)   Is there a spirit of resentment in those countries among the rich and influential?
I don't know. You tell me.

You wrote: "since such taking engenders a spirit of resentment.."

I can say of New Zealand where I have lived these last 65 years that it does not engender a spirit of resentment.  People are agreed that part of their taxation is used for education and for the health system.  They are reasonably content that some of it is used for the unemployed -  employers and government believe that a 7% unemployment rate is ideal for a successful economy.  So no, "redistribution of wealth" to the needy is not resented.

On what countries are you basing your statement?

« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 09:44:48 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: December 18, 2011, 09:43:58 PM »

Did you seriously just quote Margaret Thatcher?
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« Reply #80 on: December 18, 2011, 09:45:02 PM »

I've got an idea. It's simple, and has something for both sides in this dispute.

How about the Vatican donate X percent of the take of tourism at its museum and other sites to charity every year? Maybe $1 from every ticket. Or 50c. Whatever is the equivalent. A lot of people go there every year. It'll add up.

See? We can do both, and nobody lost an eye.  Smiley

If I'm not mistaken, the Vatican makes almost nothing off the fees for museums.  Virtually all the intake is used for upkeep.

I see. Well, if I were planning a trip, and they told me there was a new surcharge for charity, I would still go and pay. Just a thought.  Smiley

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 09:45:23 PM by biro » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: December 18, 2011, 09:45:58 PM »

Did you seriously just quote Margaret Thatcher?

Me? Peter?
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« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2011, 09:48:14 PM »

(I just don't believe it charitable for the government to take from the rich so she can give to the poor, since such taking engenders a spirit of resentment, not a spirit of cheerful generosity.)

In reality, the Christan countries of the Western  world (but not the US?) use taxation for social welfare needs ("redistribution of wealth" in this context.)   Is there a spirit of resentment in those countries among the rich and influential?  If so why have they not used the ballot box to rid themselves of a resented system?
In the US, 49% do not pay any income tax.  That's a lot to stuff a ballot box,  Father.

Don't know about "for social welfare needs." I know it is labeled that, but to delve into the substance might land this into politics.
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« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2011, 09:57:24 PM »

In the US, 49% do not pay any income tax.

Who are the 49%?
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« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2011, 10:01:42 PM »

The Pope makes a statement quite in line with Christian faith and immediately goes the ol' American telling others to mine their beams (in this case motes really).
I understand your angst. We Americans see the words "wealth redistribution", and immediately the little red flags pop up in our minds saying "taxation, government, and the like". Wealth redistribution actually does not require that the government get involved, though, so the connection is artificial. If the wealthy among us wish to give generously of their wealth to the poor or to non-government organizations whose mission is to serve the poor, then I say more power to them! I would like to see all the wealthy give generously and freely like this, even to the last penny if they so desire. (I just don't believe it charitable for the government to take from the rich so she can give to the poor, since such taking engenders a spirit of resentment, not a spirit of cheerful generosity.)
I remember a story about the founder of "La Choy," when he sold the company.  He took what he thought enough for himself to live comfortably, and then divided the rest among the employees based on strict seniority (i.e. a janitor of 20 years got more than a C.E.O. of 5 years).  But then, it was his money, to do what he pleased with it.  Including redistributing the wealth.
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« Reply #85 on: December 18, 2011, 10:02:59 PM »

In the US, 49% do not pay any income tax.

Who are the 49%?
Those who earn income.
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« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2011, 10:03:50 PM »

Don't know about "for social welfare needs." I know it is labeled that, but to delve into the substance might land this into politics.

Have you experienced life in a country with a developed system of redistribution of wealth (by that I mean the use of taxation income to assist the poor
)?

The Pope sees the redistribution of wealth as a factor necessary for a peaceful society.
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« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2011, 10:11:35 PM »

Don't know about "for social welfare needs." I know it is labeled that, but to delve into the substance might land this into politics.

Have you experienced life in a country with a developed system of redistribution of wealth (by that I mean the use of taxation income to assist the poor
)?
Sure. I live in the US.

The Pope sees the redistribution of wealth as a factor necessary for a peaceful society.
It's not the only difference of opinion I have with him.  And the Green pope too.
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« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2011, 10:15:04 PM »

I suggest that what you want may venture too much into politics for the context of this discussion. You may wish to take this question to the Politics board and see if Fr. Ambrose would be willing to follow you there.

Apologies, Peter.

I think we've covered the ground before so I'm content to let my questions stand as unanswered, rhetorical ones.
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« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2011, 10:16:22 PM »

MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS
POPE BENEDICT XVI
FOR THE CELEBRATION OF THE
WORLD DAY OF PEACE

1 JANUARY 2012

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111208_xlv-world-day-peace_en.html

This is the whole document which forms the basis of this thread


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