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Author Topic: Pope Benedict Peace Message Calls For Wealth Redistribution  (Read 3405 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 17, 2011, 03:30:36 PM »

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VATICAN CITY (RNS) Noting a "rising sense of frustration" at the worldwide economic recession, Pope Benedict XVI said that a more just and peaceful world requires "adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth."

The pope's words appeared in his message for the World Day of Peace 2012, released on Friday (Dec. 16) at the Vatican.

The message laments that "some currents of modern culture, built upon rationalist and individualist economic principles, have cut off the concept of justice from its transcendent roots, detaching it from charity and solidarity."

I think this is an issue the Orthodox and Catholics can come together on.
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2011, 04:33:14 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 04:36:19 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2011, 05:28:08 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.

Whenever one of these plutocrats, whether religious or secular, says such a thing, the message is always for everyone else ...except for themselves.  Never fails.
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 05:33:04 PM »

That's kind of funny, because I wasn't aware he actually owned the art in the Vatican. I thought they were all bought and paid for hundreds of years ago, but who cares about facts?

The Pope is elected by the College of Cardinals. His entire non-'kingdom' is less than the size of a modern state university, and only a couple hundred elderly priests, bishops and religious live there. All the security guards live over the border in Italy.

Really, you're afraid of a country that is less than 1/4 the size of a city. It is inside another city.

And as for plutocrat, it wasn't too long ago that the Vatican was millions in debt.

You're batting zero. Guess you're just swinging for the exercise.
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 06:08:06 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.
Whenever one of these plutocrats, whether religious or secular, says such a thing, the message is always for everyone else ...except for themselves.  Never fails.

I suppose by this standard, unless a priest is both the poorest and the most generous in his parish, he has no authority to preach on the widow with the two mites. But then again a priest in that position might not be able to preach on the parable of the talents where we are instructed to use discernment in what we do with what we have. Perhaps such a priest shouldn't preach at all about charity until he's given away all the icons, lampstands, and items in the sanctuary, and of course the church building.
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 07:28:08 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.
Whenever one of these plutocrats, whether religious or secular, says such a thing, the message is always for everyone else ...except for themselves.  Never fails.

I suppose by this standard, unless a priest is both the poorest and the most generous in his parish, he has no authority to preach on the widow with the two mites. But then again a priest in that position might not be able to preach on the parable of the talents where we are instructed to use discernment in what we do with what we have. Perhaps such a priest shouldn't preach at all about charity until he's given away all the icons, lampstands, and items in the sanctuary, and of course the church building.

I think the main point that username! was trying to make is that it is hypocritical for a man who controls massive quantities of valuable things that are kept locked up and never used or seen, to start talking about wealth redistribution (even using the term).
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 07:36:55 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.
Whenever one of these plutocrats, whether religious or secular, says such a thing, the message is always for everyone else ...except for themselves.  Never fails.

I suppose by this standard, unless a priest is both the poorest and the most generous in his parish, he has no authority to preach on the widow with the two mites. But then again a priest in that position might not be able to preach on the parable of the talents where we are instructed to use discernment in what we do with what we have. Perhaps such a priest shouldn't preach at all about charity until he's given away all the icons, lampstands, and items in the sanctuary, and of course the church building.

I think the main point that username! was trying to make is that it is hypocritical for a man who controls massive quantities of valuable things that are kept locked up and never used or seen, to start talking about wealth redistribution (even using the term).

1.  At his coronation/installation a new Pope takes an oath not to dispose of the Vatican's chattels, works of art, etc.

2.  Several years go the Vatican almost fell into the red because it had overreached itself with charitable and missionary works, disaster relief.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 07:39:39 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 07:44:42 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.
Whenever one of these plutocrats, whether religious or secular, says such a thing, the message is always for everyone else ...except for themselves.  Never fails.

I suppose by this standard, unless a priest is both the poorest and the most generous in his parish, he has no authority to preach on the widow with the two mites. But then again a priest in that position might not be able to preach on the parable of the talents where we are instructed to use discernment in what we do with what we have. Perhaps such a priest shouldn't preach at all about charity until he's given away all the icons, lampstands, and items in the sanctuary, and of course the church building.

I think the main point that username! was trying to make is that it is hypocritical for a man who controls massive quantities of valuable things that are kept locked up and never used or seen, to start talking about wealth redistribution (even using the term).

1.  At his coronation/installation a new Pope takes an oath not to dispose of the Vatican's chattels, works of art, etc.

2.  Several years go the Vatican almost fell into the red because it had overreached itself with charitable and missionary works, disaster relief.



Thank you.  I'm glad someone said it.  If I am thinking correctly, I believe the Vatican distributes about 25% of its yearly income to those in need throughout the world. 
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 10:11:48 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.

You sound just like the protestant kids who came into my parish church when I was a child and made fun of all the gold and lace and gems...Said we should sell it all and give it to the poor. 

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 10:48:58 PM »

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Hope the Pope likes the 50 Christmas trees sent to the Vatican by the Ukraine.

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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 10:55:07 PM »

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Just send back what you Roman Catholics stole from Orthodox churches. We'll be content with that.
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2011, 11:04:45 PM »

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Just send back what you Roman Catholics stole from Orthodox churches. We'll be content with that.

It's all coming back, my boy!  :-)

Russians Plan to Sack Rome (USP, November 4,2010).  News has leaked out of special Russian paramilitary forces being trained at secret locations in Transbekistan.  Their purpose is the sacking of Rome and Venice, Florence and other major Italian cities as well as those of France and Germany should it becomes apparent that the forces of Islam, political or military, are about to take possession of these countries.  The Russian Government intends to rescue the priceless artistic treasures of Italy and Western Europe.  Islam, known for its iconoclasm, may wish to destroy these items.  Some Russian advisors are advising that there should be a pre-emptive strike in the near future rather than wait for the Islamic threat to grow any stronger.  His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who took an oath at his papal election to maintain the treasures of the Vatican will be invited to accompany the works to Russia and accept the position of Supreme Curator at one of the Russian museums which will be built to house them.

The Grand Mufti of Hydrobul has expressed his agreement:  "Da, da, let the Russians take them all away,  We'd only have to destroy them when we take control of Europe anyway.  The Taliban boys would want to blow them all up."

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« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2011, 11:50:23 PM »

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Just send back what you Roman Catholics stole from Orthodox churches. We'll be content with that.

It's all coming back, my boy!  :-)

Russians Plan to Sack Rome (USP, November 4,2010).  News has leaked out of special Russian paramilitary forces being trained at secret locations in Transbekistan.  Their purpose is the sacking of Rome and Venice, Florence and other major Italian cities as well as those of France and Germany should it becomes apparent that the forces of Islam, political or military, are about to take possession of these countries.  The Russian Government intends to rescue the priceless artistic treasures of Italy and Western Europe.  Islam, known for its iconoclasm, may wish to destroy these items.  Some Russian advisors are advising that there should be a pre-emptive strike in the near future rather than wait for the Islamic threat to grow any stronger.  His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who took an oath at his papal election to maintain the treasures of the Vatican will be invited to accompany the works to Russia and accept the position of Supreme Curator at one of the Russian museums which will be built to house them.

The Grand Mufti of Hydrobul has expressed his agreement:  "Da, da, let the Russians take them all away,  We'd only have to destroy them when we take control of Europe anyway.  The Taliban boys would want to blow them all up."

 Smiley

Would you provide a link to the source of this material, please? Thank you.
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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2011, 12:14:24 AM »

That's kind of funny, because I wasn't aware he actually owned the art in the Vatican. I thought they were all bought and paid for hundreds of years ago, but who cares about facts?

The Pope is elected by the College of Cardinals. His entire non-'kingdom' is less than the size of a modern state university, and only a couple hundred elderly priests, bishops and religious live there. All the security guards live over the border in Italy.

Really, you're afraid of a country that is less than 1/4 the size of a city. It is inside another city.

And as for plutocrat, it wasn't too long ago that the Vatican was millions in debt.

You're batting zero. Guess you're just swinging for the exercise.

I think you misunderstood, the pope is an absolute monarch.  If he wanted to sell anything art, paper, curtain atm machine, a shrub that exists in vatican or any catholic church property he is well within his rights as monarch to do so.  No one is afraid, but the vatican is one of the world's largest land owners and they hold companies and property world wide.  So, maybe they could sell some stuff and re-distribute the wealth.
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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 12:17:07 AM »

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Just send back what you Roman Catholics stole from Orthodox churches. We'll be content with that.

It's all coming back, my boy!  :-)

Russians Plan to Sack Rome (USP, November 4,2010).  News has leaked out of special Russian paramilitary forces being trained at secret locations in Transbekistan.  Their purpose is the sacking of Rome and Venice, Florence and other major Italian cities as well as those of France and Germany should it becomes apparent that the forces of Islam, political or military, are about to take possession of these countries.  The Russian Government intends to rescue the priceless artistic treasures of Italy and Western Europe.  Islam, known for its iconoclasm, may wish to destroy these items.  Some Russian advisors are advising that there should be a pre-emptive strike in the near future rather than wait for the Islamic threat to grow any stronger.  His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who took an oath at his papal election to maintain the treasures of the Vatican will be invited to accompany the works to Russia and accept the position of Supreme Curator at one of the Russian museums which will be built to house them.

The Grand Mufti of Hydrobul has expressed his agreement:  "Da, da, let the Russians take them all away,  We'd only have to destroy them when we take control of Europe anyway.  The Taliban boys would want to blow them all up."

 Smiley

Would you provide a link to the source of this material, please? Thank you.

Me.   Message 166 http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30969.msg489890.html#msg489890  It is a joke in response to the claim sometimes made by the Catholics that we ought to be grateful that the Italians and others looted Constantinople in 1204 and the 60 subsequent years since it prevented the destruction of our treasures when the Muslims took Constantinople in 1453.
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« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 12:17:27 AM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.

You sound just like the protestant kids who came into my parish church when I was a child and made fun of all the gold and lace and gems...Said we should sell it all and give it to the poor. 

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.


Well the church having gold and lace is fine.  
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« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2011, 12:22:12 AM »

That's kind of funny, because I wasn't aware he actually owned the art in the Vatican. I thought they were all bought and paid for hundreds of years ago, but who cares about facts?

The Pope is elected by the College of Cardinals. His entire non-'kingdom' is less than the size of a modern state university, and only a couple hundred elderly priests, bishops and religious live there. All the security guards live over the border in Italy.

Really, you're afraid of a country that is less than 1/4 the size of a city. It is inside another city.

And as for plutocrat, it wasn't too long ago that the Vatican was millions in debt.

You're batting zero. Guess you're just swinging for the exercise.

I think you misunderstood, the pope is an absolute monarch.  If he wanted to sell anything art, paper, curtain atm machine, a shrub that exists in vatican or any catholic church property he is well within his rights as monarch to do so.  No one is afraid, but the vatican is one of the world's largest land owners and they hold companies and property world wide.  So, maybe they could sell some stuff and re-distribute the wealth.

He cannot sell because of his pre-coronation oath.  Without his taking the oath there would be no coronation/installation.

I don't see the economic sense in selling off land and companies for the sake of a short term gain when they will continue to bring in income if retained.
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« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2011, 01:19:21 AM »

monarchs can break oaths, can re write law.  not saying he would..
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« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2011, 01:24:50 AM »

monarchs can break oaths, can re write law.  not saying he would..
What if he took an oath, with hand on the Bible? Shocked
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« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2011, 01:59:09 AM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.
Whenever one of these plutocrats, whether religious or secular, says such a thing, the message is always for everyone else ...except for themselves.  Never fails.

I suppose by this standard, unless a priest is both the poorest and the most generous in his parish, he has no authority to preach on the widow with the two mites. But then again a priest in that position might not be able to preach on the parable of the talents where we are instructed to use discernment in what we do with what we have. Perhaps such a priest shouldn't preach at all about charity until he's given away all the icons, lampstands, and items in the sanctuary, and of course the church building.

I think the main point that username! was trying to make is that it is hypocritical for a man who controls massive quantities of valuable things that are kept locked up and never used or seen, to start talking about wealth redistribution (even using the term).

1.  At his coronation/installation a new Pope takes an oath not to dispose of the Vatican's chattels, works of art, etc.

2.  Several years go the Vatican almost fell into the red because it had overreached itself with charitable and missionary works, disaster relief.



I was unaware of this, Father.  I suppose it isn't nearly so hypocritical as it seemed, then.  I was completely unaware that the Pope could not, in fact, simply sell off some of the locked away items the Vatican has.

Thank you
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« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2011, 02:48:56 AM »

monarchs can break oaths, can re write law.  not saying he would..
What if he took an oath, with hand on the Bible? Shocked

he's the king, he can do what he wants. 
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« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2011, 07:38:13 AM »

Does this mean he is willing to give up his prada shoes Gucci sunglasses and royals royce popemobile? I hate it when these religious socialist clowns get involved in politics.
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« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2011, 07:52:59 AM »

Does this mean he is willing to give up his prada shoes Gucci sunglasses and royals royce popemobile? I hate it when these religious socialist clowns get involved in politics.

I remember Mother Theresa of Calcutta - "When I pick up babies from the gutters and when I give a bed to the dying they call me a saint, when I say that there social and political ways to prevent these things they call me a communist."

Some religious leaders handle it the way the Pope does;  others take cruises on luxury yachts on the Mediterranean to advertise the plight of the dolphins.
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« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2011, 08:12:41 AM »

Does this mean he is willing to give up his prada shoes Gucci sunglasses and royals royce popemobile? I hate it when these religious socialist clowns get involved in politics.

I remember Mother Theresa of Calcutta - "When I pick up babies from the gutters and when I give a bed to the dying they call me a saint, when I say that there social and political ways to prevent these things they call me a communist."

Some religious leaders handle it the way the Pope does;  others take cruises on luxury yachts on the Mediterranean to advertise the plight of the dolphins.

I believe that was Dorthy Day.
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« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2011, 08:46:56 AM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.
This is bogus reasoning.
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« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2011, 11:29:22 AM »

The complete text of BXVI's Peace Message:

Excerpt:
Quote
We cannot ignore the fact that some currents of modern culture, built upon rationalist and individualist economic principles, have cut off the concept of justice from its transcendent roots, detaching it from charity and solidarity: “The ‘earthly city’ is promoted not merely by relationships of rights and duties, but to an even greater and more fundamental extent by relationships of gratuitousness, mercy and communion. Charity always manifests God’s love in human relationships as well, it gives theological and salvific value to all commitment for justice in the world”(7).
....
Peace, however, is not merely a gift to be received: it is also a task to be undertaken. In order to be true peacemakers, we must educate ourselves in compassion, solidarity, working together, fraternity, in being active within the community and concerned to raise awareness about national and international issues and the importance of seeking adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth, the promotion of growth, cooperation for development and conflict resolution. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God”, as Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:9).
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« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2011, 01:54:31 PM »

As I said there is never any gratitude for the churches and seminaries that have been built or any other funds for orphanages and other sorts of social welfare concerns in Orthodox lands.  There never will be any acknowledgement as long as the kinds of attitudes that I see here prevail.

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Hope the Pope likes the 50 Christmas trees sent to the Vatican by the Ukraine.


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« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2011, 03:20:52 PM »

monarchs can break oaths, can re write law.  not saying he would..
What if he took an oath, with hand on the Bible? Shocked

he's the king, he can do what he wants. 

Its good ta be da king!!!
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« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2011, 03:32:10 PM »

As I said there is never any gratitude for the churches and seminaries that have been built or any other funds for orphanages and other sorts of social welfare concerns in Orthodox lands. 

This is a very destructive statement.  Why make it without substantiating it unless the purpose is simply to encourage your fellow Catholics to dislike Orthodox Christians as ingrates?

Quote

There never will be any acknowledgement as long as the kinds of attitudes that I see here prevail.

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Hope the Pope likes the 50 Christmas trees sent to the Vatican by the Ukraine.


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« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2011, 03:44:08 PM »

As I said there is never any gratitude for the churches and seminaries that have been built or any other funds for orphanages and other sorts of social welfare concerns in Orthodox lands. 

This is a very destructive statement.  Why make it without substantiating it unless the purpose is simply to encourage your fellow Catholics to dislike Orthodox Christians as ingrates?

I really don't have to do anything of the sort.  The comments here speak for themselves.

Many Catholics and many Orthodox do not have any idea how much material help the Vatican gives to Orthodox lands annually...or that they give anything at all.  Actual dollar amounts are not published but they are not insignificant.  Once in a while there will be an article about a seminary, a library, a parish church, an orphanage.  I was simply trying to point out that which is often unknown.

Leave it to you to make something ugly out of even that much.
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« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2011, 03:59:14 PM »

As I said there is never any gratitude for the churches and seminaries that have been built or any other funds for orphanages and other sorts of social welfare concerns in Orthodox lands. 

This is a very destructive statement.  Why make it without substantiating it unless the purpose is simply to encourage your fellow Catholics to dislike Orthodox Christians as ingrates?

I really don't have to do anything of the sort.  The comments here speak for themselves.

Many Catholics and many Orthodox do not have any idea how much material help the Vatican gives to Orthodox lands annually...or that they give anything at all.  Actual dollar amounts are not published but they are not insignificant.  Once in a while there will be an article about a seminary, a library, a parish church, an orphanage.  I was simply trying to point out that which is often unknown.

Leave it to you to make something ugly out of even that much.

So you didn't intend to make a generalisation that the Orthodox are ingrates.  You were speaking of two or three people on this forum?  That's quite a different complexion.  Thank you for clarifying.

The Catholic "Aid to the Church in Need" funded some projects in Russia in the years after Perestroika. but I think they ceased operations there as the Russian Church very quickly strengthened and had access to its own money.
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« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2011, 04:08:36 PM »

The Pope makes a statement quite in line with Christian faith and immediately goes the ol' American telling others to mine their beams (in this case motes really).

Pure American non-critical, middle class piety.

The RCC for sometime has taken a very admirable stand and actions on behalf of all the world's poor.

Too bad so much was lost in getting hamstrung by the sexual scandals.

If you don't think the RCC hasn't given a lot to the world in terms of time, money, and care, especially as an American, I suggest you do a little more in depth looking at the world around or what was here a few decades ago.

It ain't for nothing that many (most?) hospitals, nursing homes, and food kitchens were under the supervision of the RCC.

The amount of time given to this country by RCC women could not be counted. Heck, nearly every person I know who is really putting themselves out there for charity wise are often RC women, no matter how lapsed they are.

It genuinely grieves me the behavior of the RCC in handling the sexual abuse cases not just for the cases in themselves, but to the degree they undermine the incredible gift the RCC has given the world, does, and still could.

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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2011, 04:10:28 PM »

As I said there is never any gratitude for the churches and seminaries that have been built or any other funds for orphanages and other sorts of social welfare concerns in Orthodox lands. 

This is a very destructive statement.  Why make it without substantiating it unless the purpose is simply to encourage your fellow Catholics to dislike Orthodox Christians as ingrates?

I really don't have to do anything of the sort.  The comments here speak for themselves.

Many Catholics and many Orthodox do not have any idea how much material help the Vatican gives to Orthodox lands annually...or that they give anything at all.  Actual dollar amounts are not published but they are not insignificant.  Once in a while there will be an article about a seminary, a library, a parish church, an orphanage.  I was simply trying to point out that which is often unknown.

Leave it to you to make something ugly out of even that much.

So you didn't intend to make a generalisation that the Orthodox are ingrates.  You were speaking of two or three people on this forum?  That's quite a different complexion.  Thank you for clarifying.

The Catholic "Aid to the Church in Need" funded some projects in Russia in the years after Perestroika. but I think they ceased operations there as the Russian Church very quickly strengthened and had access to its own money.

There are all kinds of on-going things being done in all Orthodox lands and locations.  Debts paid...among other things.  I don't have a list of "projects" at hand.  I simply run into these things.

I think that the ignorance of these things goes well beyond two or three on this forum and the kinds of responses that one sees here, one sees in other venues as well.

I think it is pretty much par.

Also I have never seen any positive thing said about it ever...even from you...till today and I am not sure this is positive as much as it is simply stating a fact and making it appear that it happened once and is over... Wink

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« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2011, 04:20:48 PM »

As I said there is never any gratitude for the churches and seminaries that have been built or any other funds for orphanages and other sorts of social welfare concerns in Orthodox lands.  

This is a very destructive statement.  Why make it without substantiating it unless the purpose is simply to encourage your fellow Catholics to dislike Orthodox Christians as ingrates?

I really don't have to do anything of the sort.  The comments here speak for themselves.

Many Catholics and many Orthodox do not have any idea how much material help the Vatican gives to Orthodox lands annually...or that they give anything at all.  Actual dollar amounts are not published but they are not insignificant.  Once in a while there will be an article about a seminary, a library, a parish church, an orphanage.  I was simply trying to point out that which is often unknown.

Leave it to you to make something ugly out of even that much.

So you didn't intend to make a generalisation that the Orthodox are ingrates.  You were speaking of two or three people on this forum?  That's quite a different complexion.  Thank you for clarifying.

The Catholic "Aid to the Church in Need" funded some projects in Russia in the years after Perestroika. but I think they ceased operations there as the Russian Church very quickly strengthened and had access to its own money.


There are all kinds of on-going things being done in all Orthodox lands and locations.  Debts paid...among other things.  I don't have a list of "projects" at hand.  I simply run into these things
.

Tell us about the last one you ran into.

Caritas is in Russia but it does not aasist with Orthodox Church projects but with general humanitariam programmes.

Aid to the Church in Russia assists with Catholic projects.
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« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2011, 04:21:00 PM »

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Just send back what you Roman Catholics stole from Orthodox churches. We'll be content with that.

It's all coming back, my boy!  :-)

Russians Plan to Sack Rome (USP, November 4,2010).  News has leaked out of special Russian paramilitary forces being trained at secret locations in Transbekistan.  Their purpose is the sacking of Rome and Venice, Florence and other major Italian cities as well as those of France and Germany should it becomes apparent that the forces of Islam, political or military, are about to take possession of these countries.  The Russian Government intends to rescue the priceless artistic treasures of Italy and Western Europe.  Islam, known for its iconoclasm, may wish to destroy these items.  Some Russian advisors are advising that there should be a pre-emptive strike in the near future rather than wait for the Islamic threat to grow any stronger.  His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who took an oath at his papal election to maintain the treasures of the Vatican will be invited to accompany the works to Russia and accept the position of Supreme Curator at one of the Russian museums which will be built to house them.

The Grand Mufti of Hydrobul has expressed his agreement:  "Da, da, let the Russians take them all away,  We'd only have to destroy them when we take control of Europe anyway.  The Taliban boys would want to blow them all up."

 Smiley

Would you provide a link to the source of this material, please? Thank you.

Me.   Message 166 http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30969.msg489890.html#msg489890  It is a joke in response to the claim sometimes made by the Catholics that we ought to be grateful that the Italians and others looted Constantinople in 1204 and the 60 subsequent years since it prevented the destruction of our treasures when the Muslims took Constantinople in 1453.
Okay. That works for me. Thanks, Father.
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« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2011, 04:26:50 PM »

The Pope makes a statement quite in line with Christian faith and immediately goes the ol' American telling others to mine their beams (in this case motes really).

Pure American non-critical, middle class piety.

The RCC for sometime has taken a very admirable stand and actions on behalf of all the world's poor.

Too bad so much was lost in getting hamstrung by the sexual scandals.

If you don't think the RCC hasn't given a lot to the world in terms of time, money, and care, especially as an American, I suggest you do a little more in depth looking at the world around or what was here a few decades ago.

It ain't for nothing that many (most?) hospitals, nursing homes, and food kitchens were under the supervision of the RCC.

The amount of time given to this country by RCC women could not be counted. Heck, nearly every person I know who is really putting themselves out there for charity wise are often RC women, no matter how lapsed they are.

It genuinely grieves me the behavior of the RCC in handling the sexual abuse cases not just for the cases in themselves, but to the degree they undermine the incredible gift the RCC has given the world, does, and still could.



I agree with you here on all counts but particularly on the very last comment.  A few horridly twisted men can do a world of damage.  I understand the dangers and the need to make sure the accusations are real and true, but to protect the sordid few at the expense of all has been nearly an insurmountable wrong on the part of many bishops, some of whom still refuse to acknowledge their own myopia, stupidity and perfidy...depending on the extent of complicity.
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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2011, 04:28:24 PM »

I think that the Vatican should send less to Orthodox countries for a while.  I cannot imagine, after my time here, that it's much appreciated in any event.

Just send back what you Roman Catholics stole from Orthodox churches. We'll be content with that.

It's all coming back, my boy!  :-)

Russians Plan to Sack Rome (USP, November 4,2010).  News has leaked out of special Russian paramilitary forces being trained at secret locations in Transbekistan.  Their purpose is the sacking of Rome and Venice, Florence and other major Italian cities as well as those of France and Germany should it becomes apparent that the forces of Islam, political or military, are about to take possession of these countries.  The Russian Government intends to rescue the priceless artistic treasures of Italy and Western Europe.  Islam, known for its iconoclasm, may wish to destroy these items.  Some Russian advisors are advising that there should be a pre-emptive strike in the near future rather than wait for the Islamic threat to grow any stronger.  His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI who took an oath at his papal election to maintain the treasures of the Vatican will be invited to accompany the works to Russia and accept the position of Supreme Curator at one of the Russian museums which will be built to house them.

The Grand Mufti of Hydrobul has expressed his agreement:  "Da, da, let the Russians take them all away,  We'd only have to destroy them when we take control of Europe anyway.  The Taliban boys would want to blow them all up."

 Smiley

Would you provide a link to the source of this material, please? Thank you.

Me.   Message 166 http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30969.msg489890.html#msg489890  It is a joke in response to the claim sometimes made by the Catholics that we ought to be grateful that the Italians and others looted Constantinople in 1204 and the 60 subsequent years since it prevented the destruction of our treasures when the Muslims took Constantinople in 1453.
Okay. That works for me. Thanks, Father.

Preventative looting   laugh
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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2011, 04:37:17 PM »



Tell us about the last one you ran into.


Aid for the care of HIV/AIDS victims in Orthodox communities from African communities to central Europe, Romania in particular but I don't have a reference at hand.

Also money for the Orthodox Church in Cyprus.
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2011, 04:47:41 PM »

The the pope can sell the vatican move into a couple acre property like the phanar.  He can get rid of his fancy vestments, his prada shoes, etc.. remember he is the last absolute monarch in europe.  As an American, who was educated from birth not to like monarchism I see this idea as nothing but a king who is richer than the world telling everyone else to live more poorly but yet we don't see him reducing his lifestyle or selling off anything in his kingdom, even if it is the vatican and small it is packed with riches beyond belief and his bank account is most likely larger than the federal reserve of half the world's countries.

Whenever one of these plutocrats, whether religious or secular, says such a thing, the message is always for everyone else ...except for themselves.  Never fails.
I question the very premise of "wealth redistribution."  A society that is fair, with amble opportunity (I hesitate to say "equal" opportunity, as that offer is taken as an invitation to punish the progeny of those who have chosen wisely, to float the children of fools) is all that is morally required.  Guaranteeing equal results is not only impossible, but immoral.
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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2011, 04:53:12 PM »

  A society that is fair, with amble opportunity...

Interesting...
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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2011, 04:53:25 PM »


Aid for the care of HIV/AIDS victims in Orthodox communities from African communities to central Europe, Romania in particular but I don't have a reference at hand.


Well of course that is wonderful that Catholics are assisting those suffering from AIDS but it is a bit peculiar to see that as Catholic aid to the Orthodox Church.  The Presbyterian Church here runs programmes in Nepal for cataract sufferers but I don't imagine they see that as aid to the Buddhist religion.
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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2011, 05:02:46 PM »


I question the very premise of "wealth redistribution.

With very few exceptions "wealth redistribution" is an integral feature of the social and governmental policies of every Christian country.
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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2011, 05:08:31 PM »


Aid for the care of HIV/AIDS victims in Orthodox communities from African communities to central Europe, Romania in particular but I don't have a reference at hand.


Well of course that is wonderful that Catholics are assisting those suffering from AIDS but it is a bit peculiar to see that as Catholic aid to the Orthodox Church.  The Presbyterian Church here runs programmes in Nepal for cataract sufferers but I don't imagine they see that as aid to the Buddhist religion.

The money is given to Orthodox institutions to aid Orthodox believers. 

Nevermind...!!
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« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2011, 05:19:43 PM »

Wealth Redistribution and the Principles of Christianity

 That is not meant to be an affront to you or to any other Americans on list.
After all, my own ideas on this are themselves grounded in my own New
Zealand culture which is derived from that of Great Britain, but I would
contend that my country's way of dealing with issues of poverty and the like
is a much better outworking of Christianity than the American way. In other
words Christian principles are more deeply embedded in New Zealand's social
and political structures than they are in the US.

This country, and many Commonwealth countries, is orientated towards the
common weal. We see the duty of Government as primarily that of managing
the country for the common good of the entire populace. In order to achieve
this common weal we cheerfully hand over our taxes. And while there is
nothing to prevent a man becoming immensely rich there is, thank God, a
government policy which protects a man from becoming obscenely poor.


But this is *not* the view of American government, at least among those who
hold to the original founding of the US. Your Declaration of Independence
specifically states, "...Governments are instituted among men to preserve
these rights..." In other words, you did *not* see government as managing
the country or imposing a blue print; you saw it as the means to guarantee
people liberty. It is a very different concept.

Neither concept of government is in and of itself Christian, but I would
argue that government established for the common weal is more Christian than
government focused on personal liberty.

Now the NZ (and Commonwealth) approach is all based on a legacy of English
church/state established relationships with a dollop of 19th century Methodist
good works thrown in and this has spread out to the Commonwealth so I can
see how the American culture of separation of Church and State with the pot
of wholesome libertarianism thrown in (I always find your libertarian take on things
intriguing, and sometimes frightening - but always fascinating to read!) can
be horrified by the thought of actively engaging in ‘wealth redistribution.”

But for us social security provision ("wealth redistribution") as a safety net
to help the most needy, and a free health care system for all is a Christian
response and a Christian use of our taxes.

Now as Church and State drift further apart it remains to be seen if that
partnership will continue but I still argue that we in New Zealand (and
perhaps slightly less now in the UK) enjoy a culture where people have
invested into the state the outworking of its Christian principles(getting
more and more diluted of course but still there) as the basis of its law and
care for its citizens.

In my experience, the people who extol the dignity and sense of self-worth
to be found in grinding labour for miserable pay, no health care
and no future have themselves experienced none of those things.

Do the principles and values  advocated by the Neo-classical Capitalists (self-reliance,
entrepreneurship, success as the achievement of wealth, etc.) mesh with what
we read in Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and the Saints? Or do they
contradict the sources of our faith?

Can one be a true Christian and a social Darwinist?

Fr Ambrose
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