Topic: Is my marriage HAS to be blessed in OC?

[Victoria]

This topic came up during discussion during an Orthodoxy 101 class at my church. My priest said that if a person didn't get married in OC, then their marriage is invalid and they would be considered living in sin. He said it didn't matter whether marriage took place in RC, Baptist, Evangelical, whatever-not valid. According to him, he has to bless the marriage in OC church otherwise you won't be able to take Eucharist or go to confession. This is a problem because there is NO way that my husband will be willing to come to OC for marriage ceremony. It took several years for him even to accept the fact that I started coming to OC's church. Is my priest correct in this info? My understanding was that RC does accepts marriages performed in other christian denominations. Tell me if I am wrong.

[AWR]

It usually means that an Orthodox Christian must be married  in an Orthodox Church.  A married person can become Orthodox without "re-marrying".  (I may be wrong, but I don't think so)

[primuspilus]

Im a Chtechumen right now and I've never heard of that.

PP

[genesisone]

You may want your priest to clarify his position with the bishop. It wouldn't surprise me if in some cases this might be true, but not so in most. A lot of us would be in big trouble! It's much like in the New Testament where we read of new converts who have an unbelieving spouse. Those men and women were not second-class Christians.

OTOH, once both spouses become Orthodox, they may want their marriage to be blessed, but again, I don't know if it would necessarily be required.

[HandmaidenofGod]

Yeah, I would definitely go to the Bishop with this.

[orthonorm]

This topic came up during discussion during an Orthodoxy 101 class at my church. My priest said that if a person didn't get married in OC, then their marriage is invalid and they would be considered living in sin. He said it didn't matter whether marriage took place in RC, Baptist, Evangelical, whatever-not valid. According to him, he has to bless the marriage in OC church otherwise you won't be able to take Eucharist or go to confession. This is a problem because there is NO way that my husband will be willing to come to OC for marriage ceremony. It took several years for him even to accept the fact that I started coming to OC's church. Is my priest correct in this info? My understanding was that RC does accepts marriages performed in other christian denominations. Tell me if I am wrong.

Something that is a little unclear here. Or I am dense, probably the latter.

You are already married?

If so, I have no idea what is going on here.

If not, then I think I understand the problem.

Was there a misunderstanding here and he was speaking strictly of people who are Orthodox getting married and not those who are already married and becoming Orthodox?

[quietmorning]

I came to the Orthodox Church married to a man who is Athiest.  I have not had my marriage reblessed in the Church, but am hopeful that one day that may happen.   I receive Holy Communion.  

If someone IS an Orthodox Christian and THEN chooses to marry someone who is not, THEN there is a serious problem.  

Please talk to your Bishop. . . .

[IsmiLiora]

I think it is also more of an issue if BOTH are Orthodox Christians. My husband and I are being received at the same time and it has been made clear that while the marriage ceremony does not have to be done that same day, there is no reason to not have our marriage blessed in the Church. I agree with that.

But I think it would be ridiculous for them to expect you to drag a non-believing spouse to such a ceremony!

[Victoria]

This topic came up during discussion during an Orthodoxy 101 class at my church. My priest said that if a person didn't get married in OC, then their marriage is invalid and they would be considered living in sin. He said it didn't matter whether marriage took place in RC, Baptist, Evangelical, whatever-not valid. According to him, he has to bless the marriage in OC church otherwise you won't be able to take Eucharist or go to confession. This is a problem because there is NO way that my husband will be willing to come to OC for marriage ceremony. It took several years for him even to accept the fact that I started coming to OC's church. Is my priest correct in this info? My understanding was that RC does accepts marriages performed in other christian denominations. Tell me if I am wrong.

Something that is a little unclear here. Or I am dense, probably the latter.

You are already married?

If so, I have no idea what is going on here.

If not, then I think I understand the problem.

Was there a misunderstanding here and he was speaking strictly of people who are Orthodox getting married and not those who are already married and becoming Orthodox?

I’m already married, we were married in Protestant church. Priest told me that our marriage would be considered invalid by OC and that he has to marry us again in OC for it to be recognized otherwise we would be considered living in sin. I specificially asked him how it would apply to my situation and this is what he told me

[Victoria]

I think it is also more of an issue if BOTH are Orthodox Christians. My husband and I are being received at the same time and it has been made clear that while the marriage ceremony does not have to be done that same day, there is no reason to not have our marriage blessed in the Church. I agree with that.

But I think it would be ridiculous for them to expect you to drag a non-believing spouse to such a ceremony!

yes, it is and that's why I was freaking out because he would never go!

[Paisius]

I’m already married, we were married in Protestant church. Priest told me that our marriage would be considered invalid by OC and that he has to marry us again in OC for it to be recognized otherwise we would be considered living in sin. I specificially asked him how it would apply to my situation and this is what he told me

Now I have to ask, which jurisdiction is this parish in?

[orthonorm]

I’m already married, we were married in Protestant church. Priest told me that our marriage would be considered invalid by OC and that he has to marry us again in OC for it to be recognized otherwise we would be considered living in sin. I specificially asked him how it would apply to my situation and this is what he told me

Now I have to ask, which jurisdiction is this parish in?

Want to try to guess?

[Paisius]

I’m already married, we were married in Protestant church. Priest told me that our marriage would be considered invalid by OC and that he has to marry us again in OC for it to be recognized otherwise we would be considered living in sin. I specificially asked him how it would apply to my situation and this is what he told me

Now I have to ask, which jurisdiction is this parish in?

Want to try to guess?

I could venture a guess, but I don't know of a single canonical Church that holds the position this priest is espousing.

[orthonorm]

I’m already married, we were married in Protestant church. Priest told me that our marriage would be considered invalid by OC and that he has to marry us again in OC for it to be recognized otherwise we would be considered living in sin. I specificially asked him how it would apply to my situation and this is what he told me

Now I have to ask, which jurisdiction is this parish in?

Want to try to guess?

I could venture a guess, but I don't know of a single canonical Church that holds the position this priest is espousing.

Perfect time for a Nativity pool for charity . . .

[IsmiLiora]

I think just about everyone would be insulted in a guessing game like that.

[orthonorm]

I think just about everyone would be insulted in a guessing game like that.

Everyone, except one. And that is the only who counts and who is willing to run such a pool for a mere 10% off the top.

[IsmiLiora]

Oh snap. A single post search reveals the answer.

Victoria, if that is the same church you mentioned before, I am surprised.  Is it in communion with the others?

[peteprint]

This topic came up during discussion during an Orthodoxy 101 class at my church. My priest said that if a person didn't get married in OC, then their marriage is invalid and they would be considered living in sin. He said it didn't matter whether marriage took place in RC, Baptist, Evangelical, whatever-not valid. According to him, he has to bless the marriage in OC church otherwise you won't be able to take Eucharist or go to confession. This is a problem because there is NO way that my husband will be willing to come to OC for marriage ceremony. It took several years for him even to accept the fact that I started coming to OC's church. Is my priest correct in this info? My understanding was that RC does accepts marriages performed in other christian denominations. Tell me if I am wrong.

Victoria,

The Church didn't even have any jurisdiction over marriage for the first several hundred years of its existence.  Married people that came to the Church didn't have their marriages questioned, regardless if they were Jews, Greeks, Romans, etc.  The Church over time gained legal control of marriage.  The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate. 

[Victoria]

Oh snap. A single post search reveals the answer.

Victoria, if that is the same church you mentioned before, I am surprised.  Is it in communion with the others?

yes, same church, Greek Orthodox and is in communion with others. I don't think I misunderstood what the priest was saying-he also said something along these lines"I never had an problem with convincing the other unorthdox spouse to come in and have their marriage blessed". Really?!

[FrChris]

The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate. 

Uhhm.....no.

The GOA does hold that a marriage, even if done in a church, has not taken place unless it is done by an Orthodox priest that is in communion with the GOA. I know that the Slavic churches have a different understanding, but the GOA will insist that unless the marriage has been done by an Orthodox priest that no marriage has actually taken place.

[peteprint]

The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate.  

Uhhm.....no.

The GOA does hold that a marriage, even if done in a church, has not taken place unless it is done by an Orthodox priest that is in communion with the GOA. I know that the Slavic churches have a different understanding, but the GOA will insist that unless the marriage has been done by an Orthodox priest that no marriage has actually taken place.

Thank you Father Chris.  So does this mean that the GOA believes that everyone in the world who has not been married in the Church is in actuality unmarried and living in sin?  I am shocked by this.  When did they decide that God had given the Church this kind of authority over marriage?

[Victoria]

The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate. 

Uhhm.....no.

The GOA does hold that a marriage, even if done in a church, has not taken place unless it is done by an Orthodox priest that is in communion with the GOA. I know that the Slavic churches have a different understanding, but the GOA will insist that unless the marriage has been done by an Orthodox priest that no marriage has actually taken place.

Ah..hell…So only GOA has this view and others don’t? I’m confused-isn’t this is something that supposed to be the same in any OC church?

[Timon]

The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate. 

Uhhm.....no.

The GOA does hold that a marriage, even if done in a church, has not taken place unless it is done by an Orthodox priest that is in communion with the GOA. I know that the Slavic churches have a different understanding, but the GOA will insist that unless the marriage has been done by an Orthodox priest that no marriage has actually taken place.

Thank you Father Chris.  So does this mean that the GOA believes that everyone in the world who has not been married in the Church is in actuality unmarried and living in sin?  I am shocked by this.

I kind of am too. Maybe I just dont quite understand, but this is a little discouraging to me. I certainly wouldnt mind having my marriage blessed by the Church, but to say its not even  real is a little weird to me.

[FrChris]

The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate. 

Uhhm.....no.

The GOA does hold that a marriage, even if done in a church, has not taken place unless it is done by an Orthodox priest that is in communion with the GOA. I know that the Slavic churches have a different understanding, but the GOA will insist that unless the marriage has been done by an Orthodox priest that no marriage has actually taken place.

Ah..hell…So only GOA has this view and others don’t? I’m confused-isn’t this is something that supposed to be the same in any OC church?

I would stay clear of such sweeping statements as 'everyone in the world'. However, the hierarchy of the GOA has made its decision, and it is up to the priests to carry it out.

[peteprint]

The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate. 

Uhhm.....no.

The GOA does hold that a marriage, even if done in a church, has not taken place unless it is done by an Orthodox priest that is in communion with the GOA. I know that the Slavic churches have a different understanding, but the GOA will insist that unless the marriage has been done by an Orthodox priest that no marriage has actually taken place.

Ah..hell…So only GOA has this view and others don’t? I’m confused-isn’t this is something that supposed to be the same in any OC church?

I would stay clear of such sweeping statements as 'everyone in the world'. However, the hierarchy of the GOA has made its decision, and it is up to the priests to carry it out.

Thank you Father Chris.  I like your Bender avatar! 

This has been news to me, regarding the GOA and it views on marriage.

[Victoria]

The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate. 

Uhhm.....no.

The GOA does hold that a marriage, even if done in a church, has not taken place unless it is done by an Orthodox priest that is in communion with the GOA. I know that the Slavic churches have a different understanding, but the GOA will insist that unless the marriage has been done by an Orthodox priest that no marriage has actually taken place.

Ah..hell…So only GOA has this view and others don’t? I’m confused-isn’t this is something that supposed to be the same in any OC church?

I would stay clear of such sweeping statements as 'everyone in the world'. However, the hierarchy of the GOA has made its decision, and it is up to the priests to carry it out.

Father, so if I went to Slavic church my marriage would be recognized?

[FrChris]

Here is an example of the GOA position from a parish website:

3. Canonical Requirements, Papers, Documents & Certificates

3.1. For the union of a man and woman to be recog­nized as sacramentally valid by the Orthodox Church, the following conditions must be met:

3.2. The Sacrament of Matrimony must be cele­brated by an Orthodox Priest of a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction, according to the liturgi­cal tradition of the Orthodox Church, in a canonical Orthodox Church, and with the authorization of the local Greek Orthodox Metropolis.

.....

A frequent scenario is that folks may have converted in an Antiochian or OCA parish, and then moved to an area where no such parishes are present and so they go to the Greek one. When they present their paperwork, if they present a marriage certificate in their old parish everything is fine and hunky-dory, even though the wedding was not done 'with the authorization of the Greek Orthodox Metropolis'.

If they have no such paperwork, then a wedding is scheduled. It actually can be a nice 'get to know you' party if handled well.

[FrChris]

The idea that you are living in sin without having your marriage blessed in church is absurd.  We recognize the marriages of non-Orthodox people as legitimate. 

Uhhm.....no.

The GOA does hold that a marriage, even if done in a church, has not taken place unless it is done by an Orthodox priest that is in communion with the GOA. I know that the Slavic churches have a different understanding, but the GOA will insist that unless the marriage has been done by an Orthodox priest that no marriage has actually taken place.

Ah..hell…So only GOA has this view and others don’t? I’m confused-isn’t this is something that supposed to be the same in any OC church?

I would stay clear of such sweeping statements as 'everyone in the world'. However, the hierarchy of the GOA has made its decision, and it is up to the priests to carry it out.

Father, so if I went to Slavic church my marriage would be recognized?

You need to ask your current priest that question.

[peteprint]

This GOA article is interesting.  He mentions retaining the convert but makes no mention about the marriage being invalid or non-existent in the eyes of the Church; he still refers to them as "marriages":


"This article will focus on those marriages where one non Greek spouse converted to Greek Orthodoxy, and the other has remained non-Orthodox. The numbers of these marriages comprise only a small segment of the interfaith marriages populating our churches. All interfaith marriages, that is, an Orthodox married to a non-Orthodox, have ongoing challenges. However, the couples who are the topic of this particular article have their own unique challenges and deserve our attention."

http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/departments/marriage/interfaith/orthodoxobserverarticlefolder/spouseconvertorthodox

[FrChris]

I'm telling ya....the GOA wants an Orthodox marriage to have occurred. My wife and I were married in the Latin church and were married in the Orthodox Church, and I have married couples where one or both is/were a convert.

[peteprint]

I'm telling ya....the GOA wants an Orthodox marriage to have occurred. My wife and I were married in the Latin church and were married in the Orthodox Church, and I have married couples where one or both is/were a convert.

I believe you Father Chris.  I was curious:  In this case, the non-Orthodox spouse is still a Christian.  What if an Atheist or Hindu were to convert to Orthodoxy and the spouse, while approving, refused to convert.  Would the Church actually bless a marriage/ marry, a convert with an Atheist or non-Christian spouse?  I can't imagine the Church would ask the convert to divorce the other spouse.  In my parish, I think the marriage might be blessed (not sure), but certainly they could not be married again in the Church.  In the case of the GOA as long as the other spouse remained a non-Christian, the convert is totally out of luck.

[peteprint]

“But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:  If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.  And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband:  else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.  But if the unbelieving [mate] depart, let him depart.  A brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases:  but God hath called us to peace.  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?” ( 1 Corinthians 7:verses 12-16)

[SolEX01]

I'm telling ya....the GOA wants an Orthodox marriage to have occurred. My wife and I were married in the Latin church and were married in the Orthodox Church, and I have married couples where one or both is/were a convert.

I believe you Father Chris.  I was curious:  In this case, the non-Orthodox spouse is still a Christian.  What if an Atheist or Hindu were to convert to Orthodoxy and the spouse, while approving, refused to convert.  Would the Church actually bless a marriage/ marry, a convert with an Atheist or non-Christian spouse?

No.  in your above example, if one spouse converts to Orthodox Christianity, the other Atheist/non-Christian spouse will have to be baptized in Trinitarian form into some kind of Christianity; otherwise, no Sacrament of Holy Matrimony can be performed.

 I can't imagine the Church would ask the convert to divorce the other spouse.  In my parish, I think the marriage might be blessed (not sure), but certainly they could not be married again in the Church.  In the case of the GOA as long as the other spouse remained a non-Christian, the convert is totally out of luck.

Look at the upside.  The convert (while remaining married to her husband) would be an Orthodox Christian in good standing.  The convert could become a sponsor for a baptism or a wedding or serve on the Church's Parish Council.  There are prayers that the Priest can say for married couples without getting into the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.  The OP should not be penalized for becoming an Orthodox Christian.

[peteprint]

But the OP said that she would not be allowed to commune.

[Victoria]

Do forgive me everyone but the whole concept of one jurisdiction not recognizing a marriage while the others do, is ridiculous. I'm not trying to be rude to anyone here but this is very upsetting. Perhaps someone can answer this-how can my marriage be blessed if my spouse won't come to my church? what am I supposed to do then? My priest answer was "well, I'm sure he can be convinced to come in for brief ceremony". Yeah, right-I had to go through 1.5 years of arguing about why I had to come to OC(and he is still not happy) so there is no way that will happen. And yes, I was told I can't take communion if I'm "living in sin"
FYI-I haven't been baptised yet but planning on it next year

[Maria]

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy.

I do know a man who realizing that his Orthodox spouse could not receive Holy Communion and realizing that he was being rather selfish in denying her something that she firmly believed in, rethought the situation and agreed to be married in the Orthodox Church.

He also became an Orthodox Christian.

However, many were praying for this man.

Our God is a God of miracles, and prayer is very effective.

[Iconodule]

Do forgive me everyone but the whole concept of one jurisdiction not recognizing a marriage while the others do, is ridiculous. I'm not trying to be rude to anyone here but this is very upsetting. Perhaps someone can answer this-how can my marriage be blessed if my spouse won't come to my church? what am I supposed to do then? My priest answer was "well, I'm sure he can be convinced to come in for brief ceremony". Yeah, right-I had to go through 1.5 years of arguing about why I had to come to OC(and he is still not happy) so there is no way that will happen. And yes, I was told I can't take communion if I'm "living in sin"
FYI-I haven't been baptised yet but planning on it next year

I normally hate to give such advice, but if your priest won't budge on this issue, and your husband definitely won't come in for the blessing, and the bishop won't do anything, try to find another priest. I think his position is ridiculous- he is making your conversion dependent on your husband's will. Oh, and you are definitely not "living in sin" for getting a non-Orthodox marriage before you were Orthodox. May God and all the saints help you out and resolve this situation for you happily.

[IsmiLiora]

Yes, I'm sorry. That sounds awfully insensitive, actually, to just think that any non-believing spouse will just come in easily. I wouldn't want an Orthodox blessing of my marriage in those circumstances, if my spouse is furious, not supporting of my conversion, and having to stand there while the priest recites the blessing.

Yikes.

I know of some people who converted single, through the GOA, and they weren't forced to have the blessing (they were already married when the one spouse converted). I don't know about their status in terms of Holy Communion, so I can't say too much more on that.

Like I said, I feel like it becomes an issue when a couple that is converting refuses to go through with the blessing. THAT makes sense to me, although it was certainly hard for Mr. Ismi to swallow at first.

Lord, have mercy.

[Victoria]

Thank you everyone. I'm pretty much stuck with this church unless I want to try ROCOR mission which is the only other OC church in the area. By that, I mean if I want to to any other OC church, I have to catch a plane.
Also, does anyone know whether GOARCH recognize baptisms from other denominations? Fortunately, I haven't been baptised yet but I was told by my priest that if someone wants to convert to OC and they have been baptised, they have to be baptised again which frankly makes no sense to me either if this was trinitarian baptism. Combined with marriage issue, this doesn't make me want to go there at all. I think I'm going to need everyone's prayers

[IsmiLiora]

 

Weren't you RC?

I was baptized RC and had to provide them with my certificate. I'm getting chrismated. My husband's baptism couldn't be proven to be Trinitarian (one of those breakaway churches -- no one knows their official doctrine), so he is getting baptized again.

This priest seems like he has this backwards. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I feel like from reading the boards that it is consensus that for the GOA, AT LEAST an RC baptism would indicate chrismation, not baptism.

[Maria]

Quite a few post-Vatican II Catholic baptisms in the USA were ruled invalid by the Vatican. These occurred during the 1970s to the 1990s where some Roman Catholic priests used the formula:

I baptize you in the name of the Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier.

In some cases, even worse versions were used, which I will not post. Anyway, Orthodox Priests must be careful about accepting Catholic Baptisms for the above reason.

[Victoria]

Weren't you RC?

I was baptized RC and had to provide them with my certificate. I'm getting chrismated. My husband's baptism couldn't be proven to be Trinitarian (one of those breakaway churches -- no one knows their official doctrine), so he is getting baptized again.

This priest seems like he has this backwards. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I feel like from reading the boards that it is consensus that for the GOA, AT LEAST an RC baptism would indicate chrismation, not baptism.

No, I was never in RC. I attended Evangelical church for the last 5 years or so. Never got baptized cause they told me it wasn’t necessary since I already “accepted Jesus Into my heart”.

[IsmiLiora]

Well, the Metropolitan accepted mine, and I don't think the text is anywhere on my baptismal certificate.

If they want to do that, they should just declare all other baptisms invalid. Unless it is videotaped or the words explicitly written on the certificate, how are you supposed to know?


Victoria, I apologize. I must have mixed you up with another poster.

[Victoria]

Well, the Metropolitan accepted mine, and I don't think the text is anywhere on my baptismal certificate.

If they want to do that, they should just declare all other baptisms invalid. Unless it is videotaped or the words explicitly written on the certificate, how are you supposed to know?


Victoria, I apologize. I must have mixed you up with another poster.

no biggie

[witega]

Thank you everyone. I'm pretty much stuck with this church unless I want to try ROCOR mission which is the only other OC church in the area. By that, I mean if I want to to any other OC church, I have to catch a plane.
Also, does anyone know whether GOARCH recognize baptisms from other denominations? Fortunately, I haven't been baptised yet but I was told by my priest that if someone wants to convert to OC and they have been baptised, they have to be baptised again which frankly makes no sense to me either if this was trinitarian baptism. Combined with marriage issue, this doesn't make me want to go there at all. I think I'm going to need everyone's prayers

Please see http://www.denver.goarch.org/teleturgical_encyclicals/te-23.pdf -- this is from Metropolitan Isaiah of Denver just last year and page 2 lists the denominations the GOARCH (and the EP in general) normally receives through Chrismation (note his underlining "may not be baptized again"). It's the first one a google search turned up, but it matches multiple episcopal and synodal statements I've seen from both GOA and the EP over the years.