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Author Topic: Archbishop urges lapsed Catholics to leave the faith  (Read 1333 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jetavan
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« on: December 14, 2011, 07:39:41 AM »

Quote
Archbishop [of Dublin] Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.

He said: "It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say 'I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don't really believe in it'."

Fr Michael Drumm, from the Catholic Schools Partnership, said the church would be getting firmer with parents looking to have their children baptised as a Catholic.
Sounds kind of harsh.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 07:40:06 AM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2011, 10:08:53 AM »

Quote
Archbishop [of Dublin] Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.

He said: "It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say 'I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don't really believe in it'."

Fr Michael Drumm, from the Catholic Schools Partnership, said the church would be getting firmer with parents looking to have their children baptised as a Catholic.
Sounds kind of harsh.
I suppose it's no harsher than what Jesus said in John 6.
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2011, 10:30:09 AM »

Why do they want their children baptized if they are not believers themselves?  What do they get if the children are baptized?

Edit:  The article says nothing of an overriding superficial factor (like can't get into the best schools unless the child is baptized).  Maybe this is not a matter of faith, but a matter of deepening what little faith there is?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 10:32:59 AM by quietmorning » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 10:39:33 AM »

Friends of mine, one of whom is agnostic and the other some kind of Christian (she flops around a lot, but was baptized in the RC), recently got their child baptized in a Roman Catholic church.  The godfather is an atheist.  I don't know the godmother so I can't say where her faith lies (or lack thereof).  I have no they managed to convince the priest this was a good idea.  I did not attend because I felt the whole ceremony was just a mockery of the sacrament.  I believe there was some family pressure to have the little girl baptized which is probably what happens in a lot of these cases. 

When my wife and I were going through pre-Cana classes, the deacon leading the seminar asked, "Why are you getting married in a Catholic church?" and most of the responses were, "It's tradition...it's just what we do in our family...blah blah."  Most were taken aback when I answered, "Being with someone else is hard enough without having the grace of God to help you out." 







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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 11:19:54 AM »

Quote
Archbishop [of Dublin] Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.

He said: "It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say 'I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don't really believe in it'."

Fr Michael Drumm, from the Catholic Schools Partnership, said the church would be getting firmer with parents looking to have their children baptised as a Catholic.
Sounds kind of harsh.

It sounds good to me! For far too long they allowed secularism to destroy it's people, it's institutions, it's faith/religion, it's culture, and it's countries. This good medicine will only make Roman Catholicism in that region stronger, firm in their convictions/beliefs, and one minded when it comes to saying no to the bad influence of the secular world. They should have the freedom to pick and choose what they think is good in secularism while saying no to whatever they think is harmful to their faith.

In kicking people out who really don't believe anyway, will allow the liberal / modernist influence to finally go away. Or at least repressed to a more controllable state. The conservatives and traditionalists will automatically have more control and more say in the direction of that region in their communion.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 11:25:49 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 11:26:12 AM »

Quote
Archbishop [of Dublin] Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.

He said: "It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say 'I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don't really believe in it'."

Fr Michael Drumm, from the Catholic Schools Partnership, said the church would be getting firmer with parents looking to have their children baptised as a Catholic.
Sounds kind of harsh.
I suppose it's no harsher than what Jesus said in John 6.
Which verse?
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 11:43:18 AM »

"Being with someone else is hard enough without having the grace of God to help you out." 

Such a profound truth! ...er...I mean, in regards to the wife dealing w/me not the other way around of course.
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 12:31:05 PM »

Quote
Archbishop [of Dublin] Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.

He said: "It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say 'I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don't really believe in it'."

Fr Michael Drumm, from the Catholic Schools Partnership, said the church would be getting firmer with parents looking to have their children baptised as a Catholic.
Sounds kind of harsh.
I suppose it's no harsher than what Jesus said in John 6.
Which verse?
I don't know the number, but it's the one where many of His disciples say, "That's such a hard teaching. Who can listen to it?", and then stop following Jesus. Rather than chase them down and try to plead with them to come back, He turns and says to the twelve, "And what about you? Are you going to leave me, too?"
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 12:31:34 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 12:46:25 PM »

That's verse 60 onwards. "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." Smiley

It seems that many people do not believe this anymore, and see Jesus more as a nice optional guy who they can come to see on Christmas and Easter and for baptism or whatever and that's it. I applaud the archbishop in his frank manner. The faith must be taken seriously, and if you have already decided that this is unpalatable to you, then you are unpalatable to Him. "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 01:56:28 PM »

I think this also fits with HH Pope Benedict's belief.


Quote
The common theory is that bishops fear a turn away from modernism will further put the Church out of touch with the culture and also further empty the pews (when, in fact, others theorize, it was modernism, including awkward and rocking new music, that helped empty them to begin with). Where is the move in America to traditionalize?

Interesting is the notion that this Pope not only doesn't care if the Church shrinks, but actually desires such, as long as it purifies -- that Benedict XVI is interested in a purer, more devotional, and stricter Church, citing the strength of the Church in its early history, when it was vastly smaller than the billion-strong institution of our present day, a Church that is large but often in disagreement.

http://www.pewsitter.com/view_news_id_9843.php
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 02:54:32 PM »

That's verse 60 onwards. "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." Smiley

It seems that many people do not believe this anymore, and see Jesus more as a nice optional guy who they can come to see on Christmas and Easter and for baptism or whatever and that's it. I applaud the archbishop in his frank manner. The faith must be taken seriously, and if you have already decided that this is unpalatable to you, then you are unpalatable to Him. "So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."
Amen!

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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 03:08:47 PM »

regardless of whether the parents are atheists even, baptizing infants bestows them with grace, since the efficacy of the sacrament does not depend on the faith of the parent. I would think that to be a good thing...
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 03:11:04 PM »

In the particular situation in Ireland, this is a smart decision. So many people there are not even "Christmas and Easter" Catholics, but only use the Church for "rites of passage" like Christenings, First Communion and Weddings. This approach will force people to see that the celebrations and social traditions they value are rooted in the Faith they have abandoned.
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 04:11:11 PM »

"Being with someone else is hard enough without having the grace of God to help you out." 

Such a profound truth! ...er...I mean, in regards to the wife dealing w/me not the other way around of course.

Great recovery, brother!
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 04:15:40 PM »

Quote
Archbishop [of Dublin] Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.

He said: "It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say 'I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don't really believe in it'."

Fr Michael Drumm, from the Catholic Schools Partnership, said the church would be getting firmer with parents looking to have their children baptised as a Catholic.
Sounds kind of harsh.
I suppose it's no harsher than what Jesus said in John 6.
Which verse?
I don't know the number, but it's the one where many of His disciples say, "That's such a hard teaching. Who can listen to it?", and then stop following Jesus. Rather than chase them down and try to plead with them to come back, He turns and says to the twelve, "And what about you? Are you going to leave me, too?"

Were you thinking of John 6:53, "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." ?
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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 04:24:06 PM »

regardless of whether the parents are atheists even, baptizing infants bestows them with grace, since the efficacy of the sacrament does not depend on the faith of the parent. I would think that to be a good thing...

The Holy Mystery of Baptism is not a private ceremony and it certainly is not magic; if it were, we would not sin after we rise from the waters and put on Christ. Just like the Holy Mystery of Marriage, Baptism is also a sacrament of the Church, with the local congregation and especially the family and the sponsors pledging to help the newly illumined or the married couple run the race, which is not concluded at the end of the respective sacraments. Since babies cannot assent, it is vitally important that the parents, the sponsors and the congregation assent for them. It is indeed a mystical union between the one being baptized and everybody else both in the biological and spiritual families. It just will not work if the biological family is not part of the spiritual family.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 04:25:02 PM by Second Chance » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2011, 04:24:27 PM »

This reminds me of a couple I was counseling prior to marrying them. The bride was Orthodox and the groom was Latin, so naturally they were getting married in the Orthodox Church. However, the bride had not attended church for about 10 years, which was still more frequent than the groom.

I suggested that prior to the couple being married, the bride should prepare herself for the Mystery by herslef going to Confession.

She was aghast that I would even suggest such a thing. "That would be the height of hypocrisy, Father!" she tried to defend herself.

My response was: "You're close that going to Confession now would be close to the height of hypocrisy. The summit of hypocrisy would be to show up to the Church to get married after ignoring the same Church for 10 years, all so that you can please your wealthy grandparents and get that nice Greek wedding they want for you."
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« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 04:27:39 PM »

This reminds me of a couple I was counseling prior to marrying them. The bride was Orthodox and the groom was Latin, so naturally they were getting married in the Orthodox Church. However, the bride had not attended church for about 10 years, which was still more frequent than the groom.

I suggested that prior to the couple being married, the bride should prepare herself for the Mystery by herslef going to Confession.

She was aghast that I would even suggest such a thing. "That would be the height of hypocrisy, Father!" she tried to defend herself.

My response was: "You're close that going to Confession now would be close to the height of hypocrisy. The summit of hypocrisy would be to show up to the Church to get married after ignoring the same Church for 10 years, all so that you can please your wealthy grandparents and get that nice Greek wedding they want for you."
Well done Fr. Chris!
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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2011, 04:32:55 PM »

regardless of whether the parents are atheists even, baptizing infants bestows them with grace, since the efficacy of the sacrament does not depend on the faith of the parent. I would think that to be a good thing...

But it's not simply a magic ritual to bestow the child with grace. Baptism is the death of the old man and your rebirth into a new life in Christ. What good is it to baptise a child who will grow up without any connection to this new life?

Just like approaching Holy Communion without faith, love, and the fear of God makes it a source of condemnation rather than sanctification, a baptism after which the person has no connection with Christ is without benefit.

No priest should baptise an adult who comes asking to join the Church if he thinks there's is no chance of them sticking around afterwards. I can't imagine him justifying it by saying "I knew he was never going to come back afterwards, but at least he received some grace." In the same way, infant baptism should only be performed when those responsible for that child are sure to bring him/her up in the faith. Parents and godparents who bring a child to the church for baptism should be scrutinised and catechised just as thoroughly as an adult who comes on his own accord. Sadly, this is not the case.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 04:33:44 PM by Orthodox11 » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 05:38:51 PM »

This reminds me of a couple I was counseling prior to marrying them. The bride was Orthodox and the groom was Latin, so naturally they were getting married in the Orthodox Church. However, the bride had not attended church for about 10 years, which was still more frequent than the groom.

I suggested that prior to the couple being married, the bride should prepare herself for the Mystery by herslef going to Confession.

She was aghast that I would even suggest such a thing. "That would be the height of hypocrisy, Father!" she tried to defend herself.

My response was: "You're close that going to Confession now would be close to the height of hypocrisy. The summit of hypocrisy would be to show up to the Church to get married after ignoring the same Church for 10 years, all so that you can please your wealthy grandparents and get that nice Greek wedding they want for you."

Okay, you've got to tell us what happened next.
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« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 07:19:03 PM »

Being with someone else is hard enough without having the grace of God to help you out.

Golden words.
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 11:48:38 PM »

Quote
Archbishop [of Dublin] Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.

He said: "It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say 'I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don't really believe in it'."

Fr Michael Drumm, from the Catholic Schools Partnership, said the church would be getting firmer with parents looking to have their children baptised as a Catholic.
Sounds kind of harsh.
I suppose it's no harsher than what Jesus said in John 6.
Which verse?
I don't know the number, but it's the one where many of His disciples say, "That's such a hard teaching. Who can listen to it?", and then stop following Jesus. Rather than chase them down and try to plead with them to come back, He turns and says to the twelve, "And what about you? Are you going to leave me, too?"

Were you thinking of John 6:53, "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you." ?
Not so much that as His reaction later in the chapter when much of his flock of disciples left Him.
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2011, 12:00:59 AM »

This reminds me of a couple I was counseling prior to marrying them. The bride was Orthodox and the groom was Latin, so naturally they were getting married in the Orthodox Church. However, the bride had not attended church for about 10 years, which was still more frequent than the groom.

I suggested that prior to the couple being married, the bride should prepare herself for the Mystery by herslef going to Confession.

She was aghast that I would even suggest such a thing. "That would be the height of hypocrisy, Father!" she tried to defend herself.

My response was: "You're close that going to Confession now would be close to the height of hypocrisy. The summit of hypocrisy would be to show up to the Church to get married after ignoring the same Church for 10 years, all so that you can please your wealthy grandparents and get that nice Greek wedding they want for you."
Haha...awesome. Pwned.
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« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2011, 01:41:42 AM »

This reminds me of a couple I was counseling prior to marrying them. The bride was Orthodox and the groom was Latin, so naturally they were getting married in the Orthodox Church. However, the bride had not attended church for about 10 years, which was still more frequent than the groom.

I suggested that prior to the couple being married, the bride should prepare herself for the Mystery by herslef going to Confession.

She was aghast that I would even suggest such a thing. "That would be the height of hypocrisy, Father!" she tried to defend herself.

My response was: "You're close that going to Confession now would be close to the height of hypocrisy. The summit of hypocrisy would be to show up to the Church to get married after ignoring the same Church for 10 years, all so that you can please your wealthy grandparents and get that nice Greek wedding they want for you."

Okay, you've got to tell us what happened next.

Then he started the exorcism, and then there was writhing, etc.
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2011, 01:51:31 AM »

In the particular situation in Ireland, this is a smart decision. So many people there are not even "Christmas and Easter" Catholics, but only use the Church for "rites of passage" like Christenings, First Communion and Weddings. This approach will force people to see that the celebrations and social traditions they value are rooted in the Faith they have abandoned.

I see this a lot in the United States, too. Among Catholics and Orthodox (probably Protestants too, but I've never really been in any Protestant circles). I think that bishops in pretty much every denomination in most developed countries ought to take measures like this.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 01:51:49 AM by William » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2011, 02:40:26 AM »

I am wondering if, since we know we may eat and drink to our own damnation, if we might also baptize to our own damnation, too? Not the child's, of course, but there has to be something to pay on the part of the parents for playing with the things of God in this way.
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