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Author Topic: Discussion on the -political- situation in Ethiopia  (Read 3343 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jason.Wike
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« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2011, 12:39:38 AM »

Edit a bajillion times: Basically, I don't like the practice of taking people's posts from one discussion and creating a 'frankenstein-discussion' that changes everything about it.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 12:49:37 AM by Jason.Wike » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2011, 01:01:19 AM »


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam


Please forgive me for saying this, but you just lost quite a bit of credibility as an Orthodox Christian. Lord have mercy on both of us.


Well, if you support the demonic Pentecostal proselytization occuring in Ethiopia, then you have lost Orthodox credibility in my eyes as well. But I'm not your judge, and you're not mine.

And please note that my words in no way condoned violence against any people of any religion. For me to state that I do not weep over the destruction of a false religious temple in an Orthodox country is a far cry from me advocating violence against human beings. Obviously some people do not want to recognize the clear difference. My God open their eyes, minds -and more importantly -their hearts (and may He do the same with me.)

"Lord have mercy."



Selam
What's next for you Gebre--to burn the demoniacs at the stake?


A cheap and dishonest attack that demonstrates your complete lack of integrity in this discussion.



Selam

Nothing cheap or dishonest about it. I am trying to figure what you are saying; I am not you and I am not inside your head. As is normal, I am also processing what you write (as I do with every body else) through my own filters. Here is what I perceive that you have said so far:

You: (As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)

My understanding: Gebre would not mind the burning down of Protestant Churches. Does this mean that he would be happy with violence against Protestants? He is usually so Christian, so non-violent & pro-life in his other postings; why is he different in this instance?

You: Well, if you support the demonic Pentecostal proselytization occuring in Ethiopia, then you have lost Orthodox credibility in my eyes as well. But I'm not your judge, and you're not mine. And please note that my words in no way condoned violence against any people of any religion. For me to state that I do not weep over the destruction of a false religious temple in an Orthodox country is a far cry from me advocating violence against human beings. Obviously some people do not want to recognize the clear difference. My God open their eyes, minds -and more importantly -their hearts (and may He do the same with me.)

My understanding: Well, he is certainly prickly about being criticized. So, it is not Protestants in general but Pentecostals. And the problem seems to be that they dare to talk to Orthodox Ethiopeans. I need to tie this down; is he against them because they are demonic or because they somehow offend Gebre's idea of what constitutes true Ethiopeanism? Like the Greeks used to feel: Greek=Orthodox=Greek, with his version being Ethiopean=Orthodox Tewahedo Christians=Ethiopean. Yet, he absolutely denies that he is advocating or condoning violence against any people of any religion. Let me see if I can get him to expand on he has said so far.

You: A cheap and dishonest attack that demonstrates your complete lack of integrity in this discussion.

My understanding: I hit jackpot! From his over-the-top reaction, I must have hit a nerve. He is really in favor of using force to ban the Pentecostals from trying to convert Orthodox folks. It seem sto me that he is projecting his own dishonesty and lack of integrity unto me.

Now, do you see how communications work? You cannot expect folks to buy everything that you write. And, when you fight back what you perceive to be unfounded criticism, you really ought to be more measured in doing so. Insulting other folks really does not help your case.


What you have demonstrated is that your subjective understanding of my objective statements has led you to unfairly attack me. But hey, you're not the first person to have this problem.

But for the record, I condemn the burning of churches. Period. I only wish that some of you on this forum were as bothered by the destruction of human life as you are by the destruction of brick, wood, and mortar.


"Lord have mercy."


Selam
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« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2011, 01:47:24 AM »

^^ Injustice to one is Injustice to all! I will not be indifferent to or be remotely pleased at a burning of any Church, be it, Evangelical or Roman Catholic. your saying it is evil theoretically does not excuse your malicious sentiment.
 
but there is no suprise in the cheerleading that came from you Gebre, not suprising at all, the manner you have done so, speaks volumes in itself. Grin


Hiwot, will you weep if a mosque is destroyed? Judging from your comments about Islam (many with which I agree) I suspect that you would not weep if there were no more mosques in Ethiopia. But perhaps I am mistaken.


Selam
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« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2011, 01:47:25 AM »

Gebre, why should you not weep over an act of violence and hatred - a sin - committed by another human being?  Even if the Pentecostals are demonic, St. Isaac of Syria says that a merciful heart is one on fire even for the demons?


I agree with you 100%. And nothing I said indicated anything to the contrary. The problem is that some people read more into my words than is actually there. Their personal animus and prejudicial bias obfuscates their ability to read my statements objectively. As I said earlier, the irony is that I have been roundly condemned on this very forum for my unconditional pacifism. So you should be able to understand why I have no tolerance for these disingenuous efforts to portray me as someone who condones violence and hatred.


Selam
Gebre, why did you even have to say it in the first place?

I know my post was just overlooked snark, but BOTH the TITLE and the ARTICLE itself made it clear that an Orthodox church was burned down. Obviously you did not pay attention to either before posting so carelessly. That's what gets my goat. This thread has nothing to do with Protestants in Ethiopia and had you read the original post, you would have known that.


Perhaps I did not read the article carefully enough, which is my error. However, a simple answer to my question would have been more productive than the judgmental condemnation that some have levied against me.

I think this discussion can certainly include the issue of Protestantism in Ethiopia. There are many false religious movements that are doing violence to our beloved Orthodox Faith in Ethiopia, and Islam is not the only one. So, that's why I expressed my feelings as I did - which once again I will reiterate - in no way condoned the burning of churches.

Imagine if Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen, or some other heterodox preacher set up a tent in your backyard and began to proselytize their heresies. Now, if someone came along and destroyed that tent, would you be sad or would you be grateful? This is how I feel about the heresies and false religions that are running rampant throughout Ethiopia today. I am angered and saddened to see our Tewahedo Faith assaulted in this manner. And while I would never condone or advocate violence towards any human being for any reason, I honestly would not weep at the removal or destruction of idols and houses of heresy.


Selam
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« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2011, 10:56:46 AM »

Gebre, why should you not weep over an act of violence and hatred - a sin - committed by another human being?  Even if the Pentecostals are demonic, St. Isaac of Syria says that a merciful heart is one on fire even for the demons?


I agree with you 100%. And nothing I said indicated anything to the contrary. The problem is that some people read more into my words than is actually there. Their personal animus and prejudicial bias obfuscates their ability to read my statements objectively. As I said earlier, the irony is that I have been roundly condemned on this very forum for my unconditional pacifism. So you should be able to understand why I have no tolerance for these disingenuous efforts to portray me as someone who condones violence and hatred.


Selam
Gebre, why did you even have to say it in the first place?

I know my post was just overlooked snark, but BOTH the TITLE and the ARTICLE itself made it clear that an Orthodox church was burned down. Obviously you did not pay attention to either before posting so carelessly. That's what gets my goat. This thread has nothing to do with Protestants in Ethiopia and had you read the original post, you would have known that.


Perhaps I did not read the article carefully enough, which is my error. However, a simple answer to my question would have been more productive than the judgmental condemnation that some have levied against me.

I think this discussion can certainly include the issue of Protestantism in Ethiopia. There are many false religious movements that are doing violence to our beloved Orthodox Faith in Ethiopia, and Islam is not the only one. So, that's why I expressed my feelings as I did - which once again I will reiterate - in no way condoned the burning of churches.

Imagine if Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen, or some other heterodox preacher set up a tent in your backyard and began to proselytize their heresies. Now, if someone came along and destroyed that tent, would you be sad or would you be grateful? This is how I feel about the heresies and false religions that are running rampant throughout Ethiopia today. I am angered and saddened to see our Tewahedo Faith assaulted in this manner. And while I would never condone or advocate violence towards any human being for any reason, I honestly would not weep at the removal or destruction of idols and houses of heresy.


Selam
Its quite a stretch to compare Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn to churches in Africa or really, anywhere else. Yes, they are heterodox, but the fact is we are not ones to pontificate whether they're Christians or not. Who are we to say?

Afterall, if we applaud when their churches are destroyed, are we any better than a certian group of folks who paid a visit to Constantinople in say, 1204? Are we, by applauding the destruction of churches, or giving token, half-hearted sympathies (ie. its terrible but.....) doing ANYTHING to help these folks, or helping them to come to the true Church? When we, by giving B.S. sympathies doing anything to show these poeple Christian love that we often belly-ache about and scream for, when we get our butts hurt because someone is critical of another's faith on here? What about When some folks cry for tolerance when SOME folks have an opinion about the "U word" or how some folks feel about a certian Emperor of Ethiopia, or some point of theology.....

Fact is, those who cry for tolerance then give token B.S. about these churches being destroyed need to look in the  mirror, pray for those folks who HAVE NO PLACE TO WORSHIP NOW, grow up, and take a look in the mirror and REALLY see if they're so spiritual as they think, and pass themselves off as.

Afterall, you have no idea who reads these forums, and who hears things. These folks in Ethiopia are surrounded by Orthodox of one stripe or another. Whether it was their church that was destroyed or not does not matter. If they sit by and watch as these protestant churches are destroyed and say little, and do less, that justifies WHY they're not Orthodox. Thats why I said shame to begin with, and I say it now.

NOTE: I know that there was an error about whatever church was destroyed. Does it really matter? You dont think it does not happen? My comment above really has nothing to do with which church was destroyed but for the comment(s) made. Stating after you say something stupid that you have no tolerance for a,b,c or whatever does little to erase the idiocy that was stated before. Whether it was an Orthodox Church or Protestant church matters little.

PP
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« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2011, 11:42:35 AM »

What you have demonstrated is that your subjective understanding of my objective statements has led you to unfairly attack me. But hey, you're not the first person to have this problem.

Oh this is just hilarious. My standards are objective. It's everybody else who has some sort of problem that leads me to be completely misunderstood so that when I say I wouldn't care when Protestant churches are destroyed, they think I'm somehow okay with the destruction of churches! Where do they get their silly, silly ideas?! Some people just won't hear you out, I tell ya...

Really, it reminds of Mel Brooks' classic quip "Tragedy is when I cut my finger; Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die". Except this kind of argument isn't funny at all, though it does kind of bring to mind an open sewer.
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« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2011, 12:10:13 PM »

Gebre, why should you not weep over an act of violence and hatred - a sin - committed by another human being?  Even if the Pentecostals are demonic, St. Isaac of Syria says that a merciful heart is one on fire even for the demons?


I agree with you 100%. And nothing I said indicated anything to the contrary. The problem is that some people read more into my words than is actually there. Their personal animus and prejudicial bias obfuscates their ability to read my statements objectively. As I said earlier, the irony is that I have been roundly condemned on this very forum for my unconditional pacifism. So you should be able to understand why I have no tolerance for these disingenuous efforts to portray me as someone who condones violence and hatred.


Selam
Gebre, why did you even have to say it in the first place?

I know my post was just overlooked snark, but BOTH the TITLE and the ARTICLE itself made it clear that an Orthodox church was burned down. Obviously you did not pay attention to either before posting so carelessly. That's what gets my goat. This thread has nothing to do with Protestants in Ethiopia and had you read the original post, you would have known that.


Perhaps I did not read the article carefully enough, which is my error. However, a simple answer to my question would have been more productive than the judgmental condemnation that some have levied against me.

I think this discussion can certainly include the issue of Protestantism in Ethiopia. There are many false religious movements that are doing violence to our beloved Orthodox Faith in Ethiopia, and Islam is not the only one. So, that's why I expressed my feelings as I did - which once again I will reiterate - in no way condoned the burning of churches.

Imagine if Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen, or some other heterodox preacher set up a tent in your backyard and began to proselytize their heresies. Now, if someone came along and destroyed that tent, would you be sad or would you be grateful? This is how I feel about the heresies and false religions that are running rampant throughout Ethiopia today. I am angered and saddened to see our Tewahedo Faith assaulted in this manner. And while I would never condone or advocate violence towards any human being for any reason, I honestly would not weep at the removal or destruction of idols and houses of heresy.


Selam
Its quite a stretch to compare Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn to churches in Africa or really, anywhere else. Yes, they are heterodox, but the fact is we are not ones to pontificate whether they're Christians or not. Who are we to say?

Afterall, if we applaud when their churches are destroyed, are we any better than a certian group of folks who paid a visit to Constantinople in say, 1204? Are we, by applauding the destruction of churches, or giving token, half-hearted sympathies (ie. its terrible but.....) doing ANYTHING to help these folks, or helping them to come to the true Church? When we, by giving B.S. sympathies doing anything to show these poeple Christian love that we often belly-ache about and scream for, when we get our butts hurt because someone is critical of another's faith on here? What about When some folks cry for tolerance when SOME folks have an opinion about the "U word" or how some folks feel about a certian Emperor of Ethiopia, or some point of theology.....

Fact is, those who cry for tolerance then give token B.S. about these churches being destroyed need to look in the  mirror, pray for those folks who HAVE NO PLACE TO WORSHIP NOW, grow up, and take a look in the mirror and REALLY see if they're so spiritual as they think, and pass themselves off as.

Afterall, you have no idea who reads these forums, and who hears things. These folks in Ethiopia are surrounded by Orthodox of one stripe or another. Whether it was their church that was destroyed or not does not matter. If they sit by and watch as these protestant churches are destroyed and say little, and do less, that justifies WHY they're not Orthodox. Thats why I said shame to begin with, and I say it now.

NOTE: I know that there was an error about whatever church was destroyed. Does it really matter? You dont think it does not happen? My comment above really has nothing to do with which church was destroyed but for the comment(s) made. Stating after you say something stupid that you have no tolerance for a,b,c or whatever does little to erase the idiocy that was stated before. Whether it was an Orthodox Church or Protestant church matters little.

PP


I don't know why you are addressing these comments to me. I have never applauded the burning of churches. I have repeatedly and consistently condemned such actions. It gets very tiring repeating myself, but I will continue to do so if I must. I refuse to let you or anyone else dishonestly mischaracterize my views.


Selam
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« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2011, 12:40:32 PM »

Ok, and then likening people to neo-nazis? Really? This is just stupid no matter what anyone says.

When are the retro-nazis coming back into style?

Sorry once nazis AND zombies have been invoked, the thread has lost all its seriousness.



When it costs a million marks to buy a loaf of bread...  Give it a few years, she's in heat again, as they say.

For the record, Balthazar is now my favorite poster here with his Zombies declaration.  I'm sorry orthonorm, but this is how it has to be.
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« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2011, 12:50:28 PM »

Gebre, why should you not weep over an act of violence and hatred - a sin - committed by another human being?  Even if the Pentecostals are demonic, St. Isaac of Syria says that a merciful heart is one on fire even for the demons?


I agree with you 100%. And nothing I said indicated anything to the contrary. The problem is that some people read more into my words than is actually there. Their personal animus and prejudicial bias obfuscates their ability to read my statements objectively. As I said earlier, the irony is that I have been roundly condemned on this very forum for my unconditional pacifism. So you should be able to understand why I have no tolerance for these disingenuous efforts to portray me as someone who condones violence and hatred.


Selam
Gebre, why did you even have to say it in the first place?

I know my post was just overlooked snark, but BOTH the TITLE and the ARTICLE itself made it clear that an Orthodox church was burned down. Obviously you did not pay attention to either before posting so carelessly. That's what gets my goat. This thread has nothing to do with Protestants in Ethiopia and had you read the original post, you would have known that.


Perhaps I did not read the article carefully enough, which is my error. However, a simple answer to my question would have been more productive than the judgmental condemnation that some have levied against me.

I think this discussion can certainly include the issue of Protestantism in Ethiopia. There are many false religious movements that are doing violence to our beloved Orthodox Faith in Ethiopia, and Islam is not the only one. So, that's why I expressed my feelings as I did - which once again I will reiterate - in no way condoned the burning of churches.

Imagine if Benny Hinn, Joel Olsteen, or some other heterodox preacher set up a tent in your backyard and began to proselytize their heresies. Now, if someone came along and destroyed that tent, would you be sad or would you be grateful? This is how I feel about the heresies and false religions that are running rampant throughout Ethiopia today. I am angered and saddened to see our Tewahedo Faith assaulted in this manner. And while I would never condone or advocate violence towards any human being for any reason, I honestly would not weep at the removal or destruction of idols and houses of heresy.


Selam
Its quite a stretch to compare Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn to churches in Africa or really, anywhere else. Yes, they are heterodox, but the fact is we are not ones to pontificate whether they're Christians or not. Who are we to say?

Afterall, if we applaud when their churches are destroyed, are we any better than a certian group of folks who paid a visit to Constantinople in say, 1204? Are we, by applauding the destruction of churches, or giving token, half-hearted sympathies (ie. its terrible but.....) doing ANYTHING to help these folks, or helping them to come to the true Church? When we, by giving B.S. sympathies doing anything to show these poeple Christian love that we often belly-ache about and scream for, when we get our butts hurt because someone is critical of another's faith on here? What about When some folks cry for tolerance when SOME folks have an opinion about the "U word" or how some folks feel about a certian Emperor of Ethiopia, or some point of theology.....

Fact is, those who cry for tolerance then give token B.S. about these churches being destroyed need to look in the  mirror, pray for those folks who HAVE NO PLACE TO WORSHIP NOW, grow up, and take a look in the mirror and REALLY see if they're so spiritual as they think, and pass themselves off as.

Afterall, you have no idea who reads these forums, and who hears things. These folks in Ethiopia are surrounded by Orthodox of one stripe or another. Whether it was their church that was destroyed or not does not matter. If they sit by and watch as these protestant churches are destroyed and say little, and do less, that justifies WHY they're not Orthodox. Thats why I said shame to begin with, and I say it now.

NOTE: I know that there was an error about whatever church was destroyed. Does it really matter? You dont think it does not happen? My comment above really has nothing to do with which church was destroyed but for the comment(s) made. Stating after you say something stupid that you have no tolerance for a,b,c or whatever does little to erase the idiocy that was stated before. Whether it was an Orthodox Church or Protestant church matters little.

PP


I don't know why you are addressing these comments to me. I have never applauded the burning of churches. I have repeatedly and consistently condemned such actions. It gets very tiring repeating myself, but I will continue to do so if I must. I refuse to let you or anyone else dishonestly mischaracterize my views.


Selam
You've got mail.

PP
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« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2011, 03:24:58 PM »

What you have demonstrated is that your subjective understanding of my objective statements has led you to unfairly attack me. But hey, you're not the first person to have this problem.

Oh this is just hilarious. My standards are objective. It's everybody else who has some sort of problem that leads me to be completely misunderstood so that when I say I wouldn't care when Protestant churches are destroyed, they think I'm somehow okay with the destruction of churches! Where do they get their silly, silly ideas?! Some people just won't hear you out, I tell ya...

Really, it reminds of Mel Brooks' classic quip "Tragedy is when I cut my finger; Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die". Except this kind of argument isn't funny at all, though it does kind of bring to mind an open sewer.


When did I say that I didn't care if Protestant churches are destroyed? Keep having fun with your little straw men.

From your self-righteous condemnation of me based on your eisogesis of a singular sentence of mine which you have selectively isolated from everything else I have written in this thread, I can only assume that you would have no problem with anyone constructing idols, temples, mosques, synogogues, or other edifices of false religion in your own backyard. And if you would have a problem with it, then I assume you would not weep if such idolatrous edifices were taken down and removed from your premises. So unless you would accept the presence of such buildings on your own property, then don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia. 

There are many things that disturb me greatly, many things about which I most certainly care, but that does not necessarily mean that I weep over them. I write what I mean, and I mean what I write. So deal with my clear words and stop judging my heart.
 

Selam
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« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2011, 05:10:19 PM »

What you have demonstrated is that your subjective understanding of my objective statements has led you to unfairly attack me. But hey, you're not the first person to have this problem.

Oh this is just hilarious. My standards are objective. It's everybody else who has some sort of problem that leads me to be completely misunderstood so that when I say I wouldn't care when Protestant churches are destroyed, they think I'm somehow okay with the destruction of churches! Where do they get their silly, silly ideas?! Some people just won't hear you out, I tell ya...

Really, it reminds of Mel Brooks' classic quip "Tragedy is when I cut my finger; Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die". Except this kind of argument isn't funny at all, though it does kind of bring to mind an open sewer.


When did I say that I didn't care if Protestant churches are destroyed? Keep having fun with your little straw men.

From your self-righteous condemnation of me based on your eisogesis of a singular sentence of mine which you have selectively isolated from everything else I have written in this thread, I can only assume that you would have no problem with anyone constructing idols, temples, mosques, synogogues, or other edifices of false religion in your own backyard. And if you would have a problem with it, then I assume you would not weep if such idolatrous edifices were taken down and removed from your premises. So unless you would accept the presence of such buildings on your own property, then don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia. 

There are many things that disturb me greatly, many things about which I most certainly care, but that does not necessarily mean that I weep over them. I write what I mean, and I mean what I write. So deal with my clear words and stop judging my heart.
 

Selam

You first said "I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia." You keep on maintaining that In your mind this statement is not the same as "I (don't) care if Protestant churches are destroyed." Indeed, in the post that I am responding to, you followed the denial with ".. don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia." Now, you seem to be denying what you have already said and keep on saying. So, it may not be a matter of folks misunderstanding you. It must be the other element--what you have variably said "Orthodox Ethiopia" or "the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia."  Are you somehow associating criticism of you condoning (perhaps even encouraging) the destruction of Protestant edifices with criticism of your attachment to your native country and Church?
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« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2011, 05:21:15 PM »

What you have demonstrated is that your subjective understanding of my objective statements has led you to unfairly attack me. But hey, you're not the first person to have this problem.

Oh this is just hilarious. My standards are objective. It's everybody else who has some sort of problem that leads me to be completely misunderstood so that when I say I wouldn't care when Protestant churches are destroyed, they think I'm somehow okay with the destruction of churches! Where do they get their silly, silly ideas?! Some people just won't hear you out, I tell ya...

Really, it reminds of Mel Brooks' classic quip "Tragedy is when I cut my finger; Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die". Except this kind of argument isn't funny at all, though it does kind of bring to mind an open sewer.


When did I say that I didn't care if Protestant churches are destroyed? Keep having fun with your little straw men.

From your self-righteous condemnation of me based on your eisogesis of a singular sentence of mine which you have selectively isolated from everything else I have written in this thread, I can only assume that you would have no problem with anyone constructing idols, temples, mosques, synogogues, or other edifices of false religion in your own backyard. And if you would have a problem with it, then I assume you would not weep if such idolatrous edifices were taken down and removed from your premises. So unless you would accept the presence of such buildings on your own property, then don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia. 

There are many things that disturb me greatly, many things about which I most certainly care, but that does not necessarily mean that I weep over them. I write what I mean, and I mean what I write. So deal with my clear words and stop judging my heart.
 

Selam

You first said "I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia." You keep on maintaining that In your mind this statement is not the same as "I (don't) care if Protestant churches are destroyed." Indeed, in the post that I am responding to, you followed the denial with ".. don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia." Now, you seem to be denying what you have already said and keep on saying. So, it may not be a matter of folks misunderstanding you. It must be the other element--what you have variably said "Orthodox Ethiopia" or "the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia."  Are you somehow associating criticism of you condoning (perhaps even encouraging) the destruction of Protestant edifices with criticism of your attachment to your native country and Church?



Please revisit my words in bold type above.


Selam
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« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2011, 05:23:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Life is more complicated than simplistic interpretations as "Christians good, Muslims bad" especially in Ethiopia!!

This is a tragedy to be sure, and I pray for my mother Church with all my heart, but that doesn't negate the reason of my mind.  In the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the "Christians" from the federal government and  militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone.  In 2005 the federal government was caught by the AU having committed acts of genocide against an extremely small minority ethnic population in a rural area of the SNNP, killing hundreds of people mercilessly (this was considered a genocide because this small ethnic group only numbered around a 1000 and the soldiers who did the killing openly used racial slurs).  This kind of violence is not exactly uncommon, and while its not always Christians involved, sometimes they are.

Further, in the complex and long history of Ethiopia, the Muslims and Christians in the South and East have been fighting wars against each other with atrocities and war crimes committed on both sides.  Essentially, many Muslims in Ethiopia have the same gripe against the Ethiopian government and  oligarchy as the Arabs have against the Americans.  Ethiopians haven't exactly best represented their Christianity to these folks, who were the victims of slaving raids and war parties for centuries!  

So lets not be so simple here as to say the Christians are good, and the Muslims are bad, because every Ethiopian on this forum understands that the Ethiopian governments over the past 40 plus years have been literally horrifying for ALL Ethiopians, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, "animist" or otherwise...

This is tragedy for Muslims as well as Christians, because the folks who burnt this Church do not represent all of Islam.  But I can't explain the forest for the trees, if folks can't see beyond prejudice then obviously it is beyond explanation, and only God can explain it in time.

Let us then pray for them, me, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


I agree with you dear brother. Over-simplistic stereotypes never solve anything, they only serve to perpetuate prejudices. It's sad that some people are so politically motivated that they can't hear the Christian wisdom in your post (and then they ironically claim that they don't want to discuss politics with you Roll Eyes)

Let us pray for the restoration of the Monarchy, for the preservation of the Tewahedo Faith, and for peace in Ethiopia.


"Lord have mercy."


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam

Shame on you Gebre. Shame.

PP


Shame on you and others who choose to ignore my clear words in order to ascribe false motives to me. That kind of stuff gets very irritating. Really.

And for those of you who want to pass your self-righteous judgment against me, let me ask you a question: will you weep if there are no more mosques in Ethiopia?


Selam

If Mohammedans convert to Christianity and convert their mosques into churches, I will rejoice. There won't be any more mosques in Ethiopia. Islam is a spiritual adversary of Christianity. Can't get around that.
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« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2011, 06:35:09 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Life is more complicated than simplistic interpretations as "Christians good, Muslims bad" especially in Ethiopia!!

This is a tragedy to be sure, and I pray for my mother Church with all my heart, but that doesn't negate the reason of my mind.  In the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the "Christians" from the federal government and  militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone.  In 2005 the federal government was caught by the AU having committed acts of genocide against an extremely small minority ethnic population in a rural area of the SNNP, killing hundreds of people mercilessly (this was considered a genocide because this small ethnic group only numbered around a 1000 and the soldiers who did the killing openly used racial slurs).  This kind of violence is not exactly uncommon, and while its not always Christians involved, sometimes they are.

Further, in the complex and long history of Ethiopia, the Muslims and Christians in the South and East have been fighting wars against each other with atrocities and war crimes committed on both sides.  Essentially, many Muslims in Ethiopia have the same gripe against the Ethiopian government and  oligarchy as the Arabs have against the Americans.  Ethiopians haven't exactly best represented their Christianity to these folks, who were the victims of slaving raids and war parties for centuries!  

So lets not be so simple here as to say the Christians are good, and the Muslims are bad, because every Ethiopian on this forum understands that the Ethiopian governments over the past 40 plus years have been literally horrifying for ALL Ethiopians, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, "animist" or otherwise...

This is tragedy for Muslims as well as Christians, because the folks who burnt this Church do not represent all of Islam.  But I can't explain the forest for the trees, if folks can't see beyond prejudice then obviously it is beyond explanation, and only God can explain it in time.

Let us then pray for them, me, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


I agree with you dear brother. Over-simplistic stereotypes never solve anything, they only serve to perpetuate prejudices. It's sad that some people are so politically motivated that they can't hear the Christian wisdom in your post (and then they ironically claim that they don't want to discuss politics with you Roll Eyes)

Let us pray for the restoration of the Monarchy, for the preservation of the Tewahedo Faith, and for peace in Ethiopia.


"Lord have mercy."


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam

Shame on you Gebre. Shame.

PP


Shame on you and others who choose to ignore my clear words in order to ascribe false motives to me. That kind of stuff gets very irritating. Really.

And for those of you who want to pass your self-righteous judgment against me, let me ask you a question: will you weep if there are no more mosques in Ethiopia?


Selam

If Mohammedans convert to Christianity and convert their mosques into churches, I will rejoice. There won't be any more mosques in Ethiopia. Islam is a spiritual adversary of Christianity. Can't get around that.

No disagreement from me on that.


Selam
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« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2011, 06:51:14 PM »

What you have demonstrated is that your subjective understanding of my objective statements has led you to unfairly attack me. But hey, you're not the first person to have this problem.

Oh this is just hilarious. My standards are objective. It's everybody else who has some sort of problem that leads me to be completely misunderstood so that when I say I wouldn't care when Protestant churches are destroyed, they think I'm somehow okay with the destruction of churches! Where do they get their silly, silly ideas?! Some people just won't hear you out, I tell ya...

Really, it reminds of Mel Brooks' classic quip "Tragedy is when I cut my finger; Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die". Except this kind of argument isn't funny at all, though it does kind of bring to mind an open sewer.


When did I say that I didn't care if Protestant churches are destroyed? Keep having fun with your little straw men.

From your self-righteous condemnation of me based on your eisogesis of a singular sentence of mine which you have selectively isolated from everything else I have written in this thread, I can only assume that you would have no problem with anyone constructing idols, temples, mosques, synogogues, or other edifices of false religion in your own backyard. And if you would have a problem with it, then I assume you would not weep if such idolatrous edifices were taken down and removed from your premises. So unless you would accept the presence of such buildings on your own property, then don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia. 

There are many things that disturb me greatly, many things about which I most certainly care, but that does not necessarily mean that I weep over them. I write what I mean, and I mean what I write. So deal with my clear words and stop judging my heart.
 

Selam

You first said "I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia." You keep on maintaining that In your mind this statement is not the same as "I (don't) care if Protestant churches are destroyed." Indeed, in the post that I am responding to, you followed the denial with ".. don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia." Now, you seem to be denying what you have already said and keep on saying. So, it may not be a matter of folks misunderstanding you. It must be the other element--what you have variably said "Orthodox Ethiopia" or "the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia."  Are you somehow associating criticism of you condoning (perhaps even encouraging) the destruction of Protestant edifices with criticism of your attachment to your native country and Church?



Please revisit my words in bold type above.


Selam

So, what you are saying is that you were in error when you said what we have commented on endlessly? That you really did not mean that literally? If that is the case, I want you to know that you have caused needless anguish in folks like me who have liked you and supported you. Why can't you man up and apologize?
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« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2011, 10:42:00 PM »

What you have demonstrated is that your subjective understanding of my objective statements has led you to unfairly attack me. But hey, you're not the first person to have this problem.

Oh this is just hilarious. My standards are objective. It's everybody else who has some sort of problem that leads me to be completely misunderstood so that when I say I wouldn't care when Protestant churches are destroyed, they think I'm somehow okay with the destruction of churches! Where do they get their silly, silly ideas?! Some people just won't hear you out, I tell ya...

Really, it reminds of Mel Brooks' classic quip "Tragedy is when I cut my finger; Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die". Except this kind of argument isn't funny at all, though it does kind of bring to mind an open sewer.


When did I say that I didn't care if Protestant churches are destroyed? Keep having fun with your little straw men.

From your self-righteous condemnation of me based on your eisogesis of a singular sentence of mine which you have selectively isolated from everything else I have written in this thread, I can only assume that you would have no problem with anyone constructing idols, temples, mosques, synogogues, or other edifices of false religion in your own backyard. And if you would have a problem with it, then I assume you would not weep if such idolatrous edifices were taken down and removed from your premises. So unless you would accept the presence of such buildings on your own property, then don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia. 

There are many things that disturb me greatly, many things about which I most certainly care, but that does not necessarily mean that I weep over them. I write what I mean, and I mean what I write. So deal with my clear words and stop judging my heart.
 

Selam

You first said "I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia." You keep on maintaining that In your mind this statement is not the same as "I (don't) care if Protestant churches are destroyed." Indeed, in the post that I am responding to, you followed the denial with ".. don't dare judge me for not weeping if an unOrthodox temple is removed from the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia." Now, you seem to be denying what you have already said and keep on saying. So, it may not be a matter of folks misunderstanding you. It must be the other element--what you have variably said "Orthodox Ethiopia" or "the beloved Orthodox country of Ethiopia."  Are you somehow associating criticism of you condoning (perhaps even encouraging) the destruction of Protestant edifices with criticism of your attachment to your native country and Church?



Please revisit my words in bold type above.


Selam

So, what you are saying is that you were in error when you said what we have commented on endlessly? That you really did not mean that literally? If that is the case, I want you to know that you have caused needless anguish in folks like me who have liked you and supported you. Why can't you man up and apologize?


I would gladly apologize if I felt I spoke in error. But I must say that I sense a strong sense of manufactured outrage from those who have lambasted me so uncharitably. I could not have been more clear throughout this thread that I condemn the burning of churches. I only wish that these same people would weep and lament the heterodox attacks on the Orthodox Faith in Ethiopia. Islam is not the only enemy of the Church; and in fact, I personally believe that some Muslims are closer to Christ than many professing Christians.

I am a pacifist, committed to defending Life and promoting peace. Do those of you who are criticizing me so strongly weep over the violent deaths of your fellow man? How many of you support the troops who are marching off to slay and kill? How many of you vote for politicians who manufacture wars and defend the slaughter of the unborn? How many of you wept when Sadam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden were killed? How many of you would allow Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses to sell their books in your Church bookstores?

You see, unless you are committed to peace and nonviolence, then your false outrage rings on deaf ears. You want me to weep over the destruction of a building, but you don't weep over the destruction of human life. And unless you weep over the burning of the Qur'an or the demolition of a Kingdom Hall, then you have no right to chastise me for simply saying that I would not weep over the demolition of a heterodox temple in beloved Orthodox Ethiopia. To do so is not only unbelievably self-righteous and judgmental, but it is also rife with hypocrisy.

But once again, I shall repeat myself for the umpteenth time: unless the Monarchy is restored and the King decrees it, I shall always condemn the burning of chuches, mosques, or any other house of theistic worship. I may not weep over it, but I condemn it nonetheless.

Now, it would be beneficial and productive if you people focused on the positive comments that I have made in the interest of Christian love rather than honing in on the one sentence with which you find fault- especially when I have repeatedly clarified and qualified that particular sentence. I'm sure that brother Habte Selassie did not start this thread for the purpose of this ridiculous witch hunt.


Selam

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« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2011, 10:55:57 PM »


...

I could not have been more clear throughout this thread that I condemn the burning of churches. I only wish that these same people would weep and lament the heterodox attacks on the Orthodox Faith in Ethiopia.

...

I am a pacifist, committed to defending Life and promoting peace.

...

But once again, I shall repeat myself for the umpteenth time: unless the Monarchy is restored and the King decrees it, I shall always condemn the burning of chuches, mosques, or any other house of theistic worship. I may not weep over it, but I condemn it nonetheless.

Thank you for clarifying, Gebre.  I was not wild about the original comment you made that started this whole brouhaha, and I disagree with the implication that we should not condemn the decree of a king to burn houses of worship;  However, I do appreciate the clarifications that you have made to your comment, making it clear that you do not rejoice over the burning of any churches, even heterodox ones.


Quote
Now, it would be beneficial and productive if you people focused on the positive comments that I have made in the interest of Christian love rather than honing in on the one sentence with which you find fault- especially when I have repeatedly clarified and qualified that particular sentence.

Indeed.
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« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2011, 05:25:48 PM »

^^ Injustice to one is Injustice to all! I will not be indifferent to or be remotely pleased at a burning of any Church, be it, Evangelical or Roman Catholic. your saying it is evil theoretically does not excuse your malicious sentiment.
 
but there is no suprise in the cheerleading that came from you Gebre, not suprising at all, the manner you have done so, speaks volumes in itself. Grin


Hiwot, will you weep if a mosque is destroyed? Judging from your comments about Islam (many with which I agree) I suspect that you would not weep if there were no more mosques in Ethiopia. But perhaps I am mistaken.


Selam




Gebre , suppose Pope Benedict said these words upon hearing the burning of a religious edifice in Italy ( as an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Roman Catholic Churches or Protestant Churches. It’s disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don’t weep over the destruction of a protestant edifice in Catholic Italy!)


No one doubts the Christianity of the pope; no one doubts the peacefulness of his philosophy of life. However If he were to say the above statement, what do you think the reply would be, both from Roman Catholics, and the rest of the world? There would be a major uproar, outrage by many peace and justice loving people. Now you have mentioned that when you said you ‘don’t weep over’ you meant that your lacrimal glands will not produce the fluid we call tear over the destruction of the protestant edifice in Ethiopia. Even if that was the meaning of the usage of that idiom, which me and you both know that the idiom means more than that, still what is there not to lament about the injustice you know to be evil? What is there not to be outraged about over the injustice you know to be evil?


You ask me, if I would weep over the destruction of a mosque in such manner of injustice in Orthodox Ethiopia, here is my answer for what it is worth: unequivocal YES I will lament the burning of a mosque in such an unjust manner, as it was done to the Orthodox Church of St. Arsema! If I knew that it is an evil and unjust act that is been done, especially done in the name of good, then what is slain and destroyed is justice and truth! And each time I pass by the neighborhood that use to have the mosque that now lay in ruins ,the empty space itself condemns me, shames me! Grieves me! Not because I believe in the theology of Islam or the Evangelical church, or the RCC, but because I believe in Justice for ALL! It is an affront to justice when such evil is being done in the name of good and people are indifferent to it.


 I have been deeply grieved by, and have wept over the destruction and burning of over 60 Evangelical Churches by Islamists in Ethiopia, I have been reminded of the great Protestant Pastor Martin Niemoller‘s warning against indifference, and inaction to things we know to be evil and unjust when he said in the Address he gave to the United States Congress in 1968 and which appears in the Congressional Record, October 14, 1968, page 31636.

"When Hitler attacked the Jews
I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics,
I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists,
I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church --
and there was nobody left to be concerned."


I know you are active in many ways for the cause you believe to be just, however on this particular instance your statement regarding the destruction of the protestant Church as not being worth lamenting over, well, even if it was to be said by the Pope himself or Nelson Mandela, it will still be an unjust thing to say to my ears. When an idea is wrong it is wrong no matter who says it. Even so, as testament to Neimller’s words those who burnt the protestant Churches indeed came to burn the Orthodox Churches. There were also more than one hundred Sufi shrines/mosques being burnt down in Jimma area in Southern Ethiopia by the Militant Muslims, who consider the practice of worshipping at Sufi shrines as ‘un-Islamic’ and I was deeply troubled and grieved by it, not by agreement with the sufist’s theology but by the way the injustice was carried out in a country where all should have been free to worship in their respective sects.  Recently, there was a call to burn the Quran by some man in Florida, and I was outraged and deeply troubled by it because as the German Jewish Poet Heinrich Heine wrote: “those who begin by burning books will end by burning people” the book-burning he was referring to was ironically the burning of the Quran itself.  As a result of what they did directly or indirectly the burning of that book lead to the death of many innocents across continents.  Those people failed to understand that ideology cannot be killed by fire, and the gun. In Ethiopia I will pray for Christianization of the entire country not by force or any form of injustice but through honest encounter with the message of the Gospel. Militant Islam seeks to use force against all, and united with all Christians (Evangelicals, and Roman Catholics)and justice loving Muslims, we will resist such injustice together for a peaceful Ethiopia for all. If there is no integrity to justice, it is ceases to be justice.


In Ethiopian history, when the Orthodox Church was burning at the hand of Ahmed Gragn, the Portuguese Roman Catholics have came to our aid, and gave their very lives for her including their great commander and martyr Christopher da Gamma. We will never forget such Christian solidarity. They did not say we know its evil but we will not weep over the destruction of the Tewahedo Church from that corner of Africa. During the Fascists’ invasion, when for our death and mutilation by mustard gas, the burning of our churches and monasteries, the fascists wanted to finance the war, victim herself to the tragic historical mistakes of men’s choices, the Church of Rome directed by the pontiff gave her gold and silver, along with her blessing.  At that time, it was the Protestants of Sweden among others, around the world that expressed their sorrow and outrage with open letters to the pontiff; yes we will never forget people like Alec Sindrum for their incredible courage and Christian witness to justice and righteousness. When the Emperor Hailesilase, appealed for justice for Ethiopia before the League of Nations, it was the sin of indifference, that said “yes it is evil, but what is it to me?” that did nothing while millions were slaughtered. Yet History is a witness that the evil they knew about yet were indifferent to, because it was not happening to them, later on knocked on every one of their doors and they were no longer indifferent.

I would like to remind us, what the Christian Copts did in Egypt when they formed a human chain to protect Muslims at prayer from the military forces.  And what those Muslims did who acted like human shields to protect the Copts. I believe in the human heart the law of God is written to recognize good from evil, what will stop an ideology that is against tolerance and peaceful coexistence is the spirit of Justice and Righteousness, and freedom that I for one believe that God Himself planted in the heart of all human beings. It is not because they agreed upon the theology of one another, however they agreed in the need for justice for all in Egypt. While I hate and oppose the theology that declares war against those who do not believe in it, I admire and honor those who are under it yet have managed to reject that part of the theology and rise above it, in preference to justice for all.


Injustice to one is injustice to all, be it decreed from the podium of the city’s square, by the leader of a nation, or by an individual who takes it upon his or herself to be unjust. It is when we lament and oppose injustice wherever it may be, that we can hope to maintain the integrity of justice without partiality. I hope you understand where I am coming from my brother. I opposed your words as I would oppose them if they were to come even from my bishop.


Now forgive me my brother, for any offence I might have commited against you, I am full of sinful passions, that I am subservient to. May the Lord have mercy on me.

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« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2011, 12:00:59 AM »

^^ Injustice to one is Injustice to all! I will not be indifferent to or be remotely pleased at a burning of any Church, be it, Evangelical or Roman Catholic. your saying it is evil theoretically does not excuse your malicious sentiment.
 
but there is no suprise in the cheerleading that came from you Gebre, not suprising at all, the manner you have done so, speaks volumes in itself. Grin


Hiwot, will you weep if a mosque is destroyed? Judging from your comments about Islam (many with which I agree) I suspect that you would not weep if there were no more mosques in Ethiopia. But perhaps I am mistaken.


Selam




Gebre , suppose Pope Benedict said these words upon hearing the burning of a religious edifice in Italy ( as an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Roman Catholic Churches or Protestant Churches. It’s disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don’t weep over the destruction of a protestant edifice in Catholic Italy!)


No one doubts the Christianity of the pope; no one doubts the peacefulness of his philosophy of life. However If he were to say the above statement, what do you think the reply would be, both from Roman Catholics, and the rest of the world? There would be a major uproar, outrage by many peace and justice loving people. Now you have mentioned that when you said you ‘don’t weep over’ you meant that your lacrimal glands will not produce the fluid we call tear over the destruction of the protestant edifice in Ethiopia. Even if that was the meaning of the usage of that idiom, which me and you both know that the idiom means more than that, still what is there not to lament about the injustice you know to be evil? What is there not to be outraged about over the injustice you know to be evil?


You ask me, if I would weep over the destruction of a mosque in such manner of injustice in Orthodox Ethiopia, here is my answer for what it is worth: unequivocal YES I will lament the burning of a mosque in such an unjust manner, as it was done to the Orthodox Church of St. Arsema! If I knew that it is an evil and unjust act that is been done, especially done in the name of good, then what is slain and destroyed is justice and truth! And each time I pass by the neighborhood that use to have the mosque that now lay in ruins ,the empty space itself condemns me, shames me! Grieves me! Not because I believe in the theology of Islam or the Evangelical church, or the RCC, but because I believe in Justice for ALL! It is an affront to justice when such evil is being done in the name of good and people are indifferent to it.


 I have been deeply grieved by, and have wept over the destruction and burning of over 60 Evangelical Churches by Islamists in Ethiopia, I have been reminded of the great Protestant Pastor Martin Niemoller‘s warning against indifference, and inaction to things we know to be evil and unjust when he said in the Address he gave to the United States Congress in 1968 and which appears in the Congressional Record, October 14, 1968, page 31636.

"When Hitler attacked the Jews
I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics,
I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists,
I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church --
and there was nobody left to be concerned."


I know you are active in many ways for the cause you believe to be just, however on this particular instance your statement regarding the destruction of the protestant Church as not being worth lamenting over, well, even if it was to be said by the Pope himself or Nelson Mandela, it will still be an unjust thing to say to my ears. When an idea is wrong it is wrong no matter who says it. Even so, as testament to Neimller’s words those who burnt the protestant Churches indeed came to burn the Orthodox Churches. There were also more than one hundred Sufi shrines/mosques being burnt down in Jimma area in Southern Ethiopia by the Militant Muslims, who consider the practice of worshipping at Sufi shrines as ‘un-Islamic’ and I was deeply troubled and grieved by it, not by agreement with the sufist’s theology but by the way the injustice was carried out in a country where all should have been free to worship in their respective sects.  Recently, there was a call to burn the Quran by some man in Florida, and I was outraged and deeply troubled by it because as the German Jewish Poet Heinrich Heine wrote: “those who begin by burning books will end by burning people” the book-burning he was referring to was ironically the burning of the Quran itself.  As a result of what they did directly or indirectly the burning of that book lead to the death of many innocents across continents.  Those people failed to understand that ideology cannot be killed by fire, and the gun. In Ethiopia I will pray for Christianization of the entire country not by force or any form of injustice but through honest encounter with the message of the Gospel. Militant Islam seeks to use force against all, and united with all Christians (Evangelicals, and Roman Catholics)and justice loving Muslims, we will resist such injustice together for a peaceful Ethiopia for all. If there is no integrity to justice, it is ceases to be justice.


In Ethiopian history, when the Orthodox Church was burning at the hand of Ahmed Gragn, the Portuguese Roman Catholics have came to our aid, and gave their very lives for her including their great commander and martyr Christopher da Gamma. We will never forget such Christian solidarity. They did not say we know its evil but we will not weep over the destruction of the Tewahedo Church from that corner of Africa. During the Fascists’ invasion, when for our death and mutilation by mustard gas, the burning of our churches and monasteries, the fascists wanted to finance the war, victim herself to the tragic historical mistakes of men’s choices, the Church of Rome directed by the pontiff gave her gold and silver, along with her blessing.  At that time, it was the Protestants of Sweden among others, around the world that expressed their sorrow and outrage with open letters to the pontiff; yes we will never forget people like Alec Sindrum for their incredible courage and Christian witness to justice and righteousness. When the Emperor Hailesilase, appealed for justice for Ethiopia before the League of Nations, it was the sin of indifference, that said “yes it is evil, but what is it to me?” that did nothing while millions were slaughtered. Yet History is a witness that the evil they knew about yet were indifferent to, because it was not happening to them, later on knocked on every one of their doors and they were no longer indifferent.

I would like to remind us, what the Christian Copts did in Egypt when they formed a human chain to protect Muslims at prayer from the military forces.  And what those Muslims did who acted like human shields to protect the Copts. I believe in the human heart the law of God is written to recognize good from evil, what will stop an ideology that is against tolerance and peaceful coexistence is the spirit of Justice and Righteousness, and freedom that I for one believe that God Himself planted in the heart of all human beings. It is not because they agreed upon the theology of one another, however they agreed in the need for justice for all in Egypt. While I hate and oppose the theology that declares war against those who do not believe in it, I admire and honor those who are under it yet have managed to reject that part of the theology and rise above it, in preference to justice for all.


Injustice to one is injustice to all, be it decreed from the podium of the city’s square, by the leader of a nation, or by an individual who takes it upon his or herself to be unjust. It is when we lament and oppose injustice wherever it may be, that we can hope to maintain the integrity of justice without partiality. I hope you understand where I am coming from my brother. I opposed your words as I would oppose them if they were to come even from my bishop.


Now forgive me my brother, for any offence I might have commited against you, I am full of sinful passions, that I am subservient to. May the Lord have mercy on me.




Dear Hiwot,

Thank you for the very thoughful comments and the Christian spirit with which you communicated them. I am actually in total agreement with everything you have said here above.

Let me clarify myself for the benefit of all. I will admit that my words appeared callous and I can understand how it was easy for people to assume from that one sentence that I have no problem with the burning of Protestant churches. And even after I repeatedly and unequivocally stated that I condemn any such action, I can nevertheless understand why many people took issue with what I initially wrote.

I am passionate about peace and justice, and I have frequently used the very examples and quotes that you have used above to help underscore the importance of treating all people justly regardless of the things that may divide us. I was speaking honestly, but I did a poor job of communicating what I really meant.

I am deeply bothered by the various and numerous assaults against our Tewahedo Faith in Ethiopia. I pray for the restoration of the Monarchy and the preservation of the Church (and we do take comfort in Our Lord's promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail against her.) So, I would like to see these heterodox and idolatrous religious movements cease their proselytizing amongst the Orthodox Faithful. If a Protestant Church was converted into an Orthodox Church, or if a mosque were converted into an Orthodox Church, then I would be happy. But I certainly would NEVER encourage or desire to see Protestants or Muslims violently and forcibly removed from their own places of worship. Any such action would most certainly not be Orthodox, and thus I would thoroughly condemn it.

Our great King Emperor Haile Selassie was very tolerant of other religions in Ethiopia as long as they did not infringe upon the Orthodox Church. He even welcomed Protestant missionaries in Ethiopia as long as they did not proselytize amongst the Tewahedo faithful. I may be mistaken (and Hiwot, you or brother Habte may correct me here) but I believe there is a law in the Fetha Nagast that forbids the proselytization of the heterodox amongst the Tewahedo faithful and forbids the disruption of any Orthodox worship or ceremony. So, I always seek and desire to express the same spirit of Christian love and tolerance that His Majesty exemplified.

Once again, I confess that my initial words smacked of insensitivity, and I could have conveyed my feelings in a much more articulate and Christian manner. I hope that everyone now has a better understanding of my true feelings on the matter.


Selam
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"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
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