I have not yet mastered the art of qouting so...
Habte says =>Life is more complicated than simplistic interpretations as "Christians good, Muslims bad" especially in Ethiopia!!
My Reply =>First of all habte, can you please show me who in this thread has used the words ‘Christians good Muslims bad” except YOU? what you are trying to do is to divert the spotlight from the true face of Islam and make those who point out, the very self evident truth, that act of: intolerance violence, and despicable atrocity that the religion and political ideology of Islam sanctions as HOLY, you want to portray them as racists, bigots as you have been consistently arguing, and make it sound like Christian people are against Muslim people which in reality no one have said, except for within your own mind. the real argument is not focusing on individuals its Islam as geopolitical ideology , against everything that is non Muslim, the victims now happen to be Christians and their way of life. So for the last time, we all know and agree that all Christians are not good and all Muslims are not bad, you perhaps regard yourself as the only one who thinks this way but sorry to disappoint you, or take away from whatever self-righteous pleasure you might have been getting from that perception, but you are preaching to the choir here. Instead what we are trying to point out, and the fact within the Quran with thousand years of Islamic Tradition uphold and teaches IS an enemy to human rights, tolerance and peaceful coexistence period. If you disagree and believe Islam to be a religion of peace and tolerance , peaceful coexistence, respectful of human rights , then please say so and prove your point without calling people racists , bigots etc.. When you have no credible reason to do so.***
Habte you still has not answered my question who in this thread has said “Christians good Muslims bad” other than you yourself? If as the fact is that no one uttered such words other than you ,why do you insist in putting those particular idiotic words in people’s mouth? Can you not defend your “Islam is a religion of peace” ideology with something substantial and credible material so therefore you resort into calling people names, when they challenge the political ideology of Islam in its global world view of domination and subjugation of all non Muslim? What is your motive for uttering such a blatant lie of saying that people are arguing along the lines of “Christians good, muslims bad”? I think it is a reasonable question if you would take the responsibility of answering it for all here you have called bigots based on solely your words of “ Christians good muslims bad” . unless of course you can prove to us that Islam is peaceful and tolerant as you claim to not only believe but also teach it to your students, as well as call the rest of us here for bigots for disagreeing with you.
Habte says=> This is a tragedy to be sure, and I pray for my mother Church with all my heart, but that doesn't negate the reason of my mind. In the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the "Christians" from the federal government and militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone. In 2005 the federal government was caught by the AU having committed acts of genocide against an extremely small minority ethnic population in a rural area of the SNNP, killing hundreds of people mercilessly (this was considered a genocide because this small ethnic group only numbered around a 1000 and the soldiers who did the killing openly used racial slurs). This kind of violence is not exactly uncommon, and while it’s not always Christians involved, sometimes they are.***
after your crafty way of linking Christianity with the Federal government and then saying that Christians have been as violent as anyone, which literally says the Christians FROM the Federal Government have been as violent as anyone( in this case anyone being the militant islamist who burnt and slaughtered) Of course you did not stop there you went on to link it with the genocide of the government as if it was a religious genocide especially by Christians who are in the position of power in the Federal government, which you reinforced your statement by the previous sentence about your claim that the Christians from the Federal Government being as violent as “anyone”. Then you make a conclusive extrapolation for us and say so this kind of violence , ( the violence you have referred to i.e., the Christians being as violent as anyone in SNNP state which according to you these Christian’s action also have even lead to the genocide/which is a tragic action of the EPRDF government and not a religious action by anyone as it is factually documented/ so you say the action of these group of Islamists is nothing uncommon) is not exactly uncommon, while it is not always Christians involved(in this case you referring to the Islamists who burned Churches and massacred people) sometimes they are( which as your example of the genocide and the Christians from the Federal Government having been as violent as anyone indicates towards the violence of Christians). If this is not saying that Christians have sanctioned killing for religious reasons as these islamists have done, then what is it?
Yet you deny you have linked those as one, when you say =>I never said the Ethiopian regime is a Christian regime, I said there were surely Christians within the regime, do you care to dispute that Ethiopian Christians are not in positions of political power in Ethiopia or not members of the armed services? Hardly a believable sentiment in a country that's political system has been dominated by regional Christian oligarchies for centuries. Further, I never said Christians sanctioned killing, I AM AN ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN, why would I condemn our Mother that way?***
your last question is mine also, If you are an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian, then Why would you portray as fact by saying violence like these are not uncommon in present day Ethiopia and making it look like that there are Government sanctioned Christians who are killing for “Jesus” as the Islamists have killed and burned for “Allah and His Prophet”? because that IS the violence we are talking about is it not? You mix your timing when it suits you as well, you were talking about the present regime when you linked a Christian violence towards others and not the ancient Christian oligarchy that has been there for centuries, so even why this flip flop? Why indeed?!***
So I was forced to point out the reality of Ethiopian politics and the nature of the dictatorial leadership of EPRDF, plus the nature of the movement towards the Islamisation of Ethiopia, and the Saudi Arabian and other Islamic nations extensive economic support and direct involvement towards the elimination of the Culturally mixed nature of the Ethiopia’s indigenous Islam(one influenced by Ethiopian traditional customs) and instead replacing it with orthodox Islam by the revival Islamic movement that is deeply nostalgic of the Ahmed Gragn’s days of slaughter and subjugation of the Non Muslim. Even The Nationalistic loyalty is quickly becoming replaced by the Quranic declaration of the supremacy of the Islamic Land, this fact that nationalism being incompatible with Islam, as it has been seen practiced in time of Mussolini’s ( who regarded the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as being the vanguard of Ethiopian nationalism and history, he focused on the killing and persecuting Christians burning churches and their historical records while giving extensive support for Muslims)support of Muslims in Ethiopia and in return gaining their cooperation with his leadership as well as strengthening his diplomatic relations with Islamic nations. Meanwhile the fascists terrorized and persecuted the EOC and her followers, especially the patriotic insurgency. It shows that Islam as a geopolitical ideology is global rather than nationalistic. At present as part of the movement toward the global domination of Islam, I have added a few statistical indicators of the increasingly islimization of Ethiopia, and the obvious link with the Saudi’s and other Islamic nations. This has nothing to do with Ethiopian muslims building their mosques, as it is their right to do so. however as old mosques of the indigenous Islam are being torn down and burnt by the reformists, those reformists are also building numerous mosques and madrassas that advocate the Wahabbi Islam via the funding they receive from Islamic nations. This is about the increasingly aggressive influence of Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Egypt, etc.. whose ardent interest circulates around the total islamization of Ethiopia and the eradication of the type of mixed nature of the local Islam that has a sufist practice ,that also through centuries of Christian leadership has culturally Christianized version of indigenous Islam, expressed uniquely in the Northern Province of “wello”. However it is according to the revivalists not true ISLAM( one would argue by looking at the indigenous practices of the yearly celebration of memorial services for the long departed, mediation of judicial nature by a man whose job it is to reconcile and judge among people by invoking the name of Allah only without the use of the sharia law, the ease of conversion to and from Christianity and back again to Islam, the helping of each community in the building of churches together as well as mosques together, going to priests for exorcisms , building shrines for Christian Saints and asking for their spiritual aid, etc. practices that are neither in the Quran nor in the Hadith, that one can see that there is a unique environment that has clearly departed from strict fellowship of the Quran and the Hadith as well as other Islamic Traditions and adopted its own form of spirituality ) and by calling those who practice it as “Non muslims” this sentiment of rejecting the indigenous Islam as being unorthodox, has also been endorsed by the Supreme Islamic Affairs Council in Addis Ababa. As the highest body of Ethiopian Muslims the SIAC ( who even though it does not follow the reformists version of Islam ) has essentially called them ignorant of the true Islamic faith, and practitioners of cultural and non Islamic elements, therefore are not really Muslims. One might then understand and correctly conclude that the relatively peaceful character that Islam in the province of wallo has adopted is not related to its core ideology but rather the result of its being uniquely indigenous and its integration with preexisting culture which upholds economic political and social inclusiveness along with its long exposure to Christianity’s influence in the region. With changing social political and economic environment, what has been portrayed as watered down Islam is being recast into its true form which is a geopolitical ideology whose philosophy is Totalitarianism in all dimensions of human life. As some people in Ethiopia have already said, with the fall of the Derg regime in Ethiopia,” out goes Communism, and in comes Islamism
.” As I have presented in the statistical data, the number of Muslims per mosque, and madrassas in a single district is incredulous. the Saudis being the major financers of such endeavors as well as for the theology being taught through them. Mean while in Saudi Arabia, let alone build a single church in the entire country , if a Christian is dead, will never be buried in the land instead, the body of the person will either be sent back to his/her original country or thrown into the ocean.
=>you claim that: Ethiopia has always maintained good relationships not just with her domestic Muslims, but the Muslim world in general. During the Crusades, Ethiopian Christians always maintained relatively free-access to the Holy Lands because the Muslims there trusted and favored the Ethiopians and even today, one of Ethiopia's largest trading partners isn't the United States, it isn't Israel, it isn't the EU, its Saudi Arabia!!! Clearly then the "beef" between Ethiopians and Muslims has been exaggerated by a political minority with a nefarious agenda, because both history and contemporary circumstances simply do not warrant such speculations.”***
Wait here is another display of your lack of knowledge of Ethiopian history and the distortion of what little you know to suit your purpose, honestly speaking I am flabbergasted by the outrageous claim of Ethiopia having ALWAYS maintained good relationships not just with her domestic Muslims but the Muslim world in general. After the Axumite Hijira, where Ethiopia came in contact with Islam, that lead to her being declared by Mohammed as a ‘Dar- al- hiyat/ Neutral land” that protected her during the period of Pan-Arabism, that semblance of peace would soon change when Islam infiltrated via the trade routes and created small sultanates that later became a threat to the Christian Empires. Thus came, the internal external wars where the Ethiopian kingdom more than once lost its kings lives for has been a war with Muslim lead sieges both from within and from the neighbors as well as Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia who used the opportunity to make Ethiopia dar-al-Islam/ the Land of Islam . The famous Ethiopian saying describing the politically hyper vigilant state existence by the Christian Empire of Ethiopia against the ever present threat of the Muslim neighbors invasion of Ethiopia is summed up by the term that Ethiopia is “dar darua isat, mehalua genet yehonech hager” / A country surrounded by fire yet holds paradise within her/ all this is said to express the conflict with surrounding Muslim nations. This will later on in History of Christian Empire of Ethiopia, will reach its zenith by the brutal jihad led by Ahmed Gragn, mostly leaving in the collective Christian memory what is referred to as “Gragn-trauma”. As to the time of the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem in 634-44 Khalif Omar, has been said to allow Ethiopians to remain in Jerusalem as well as recognizing the rights of other Christian communities to make pilgrimage in the Christian holy places of Jerusalem, this was not a unique privilege of Ethiopians alone, and during the Saladin’s taking of Jerusalem from the crusaders in 1187 he restored the presence of the Ethiopian monks, however during the reign of Lalibela (1190-1225) had trouble maintaining unhampered contacts with the monks in Jerusalem, he decided to build a new Jerusalem in his land. This shows that the reason why the Rock-hewn Churches of Lalibela were built was precisely because the pilgrims were having a hard time to go to Jerusalem safely. The ottomans also controlled Egypt and much of the Red Sea passageway blocked thus this circumscribed Ethiopia’s communication with the outside world including Jerusalem. Over the course of Ethiopia’s long history, there were some positive political relations with Islamic nations however not enduring ones. Some interactions were good, some were terrible there was even intermarriage among the royalties by the conversion of the Muslim into Christianity. Even so one has to look at historical chronicles and see the colorful story of Christian Kings and their not so peaceful interactions with Muslims and in some cases dying while in battle against muslims, I will provide some of their names so those interested can look their histories up, Kings like Emperor Amda Seyon I, Newaya Krestos, Dawit I, Tewodros I, Yeshaq I,Zara yaqob, Eskender, Na’od, Dawit II, Gelawdewos, Menas, Yohannes IV, Minilik II.
The books of Ethiopian history are filled with such conquests and conflicts. As far as the present day trading partner of Ethiopia being Saudi Arabia, we have already established, the consistency of the centuries old plan of radical Islamisation of Ethiopia by Islamic Nations the leading of which is Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are working extensively towards that goal, using overt and covert means. The Islamic NGOs of these countries have come to Ethiopia for this one obvious purpose. Much has been said about this issue already. The beef between Ethiopians and neighboring Muslim countries is far from an exaggerated report, history is a witness to this. You who are a teacher of history, who specialized in Ethiopian history , graduated with honors, who brags on that he has what 30% of Ethiopian professors do not have, yet you do not know these things that the Great Ethiopian Journalist and Historian The Beloved Gashe Paulos GnoGno, who was only a 4th grade dropout, knew and documented extensively about. It is a wonder and a tragedy.
Habte says =>I am also glad you are familiar with the genocide in Gambela, I never tried to insinuate that it was a Christian genocide against folks, rather that many folks from the SNNP perceived it as such, I only brought it up to point out the complicated and divisive sociopolitical conditions in the SNNP where this particular Church was burnt, so folks on the forum could see this incident in its proper context.***
again the genocide in Gambela is not perceived as a Christian genocide against the Anuaks, since the majority of the Anuaks themselves are Christians. The genocide was perpetrated by EPRDF. The Anuaks being outspoken opposers of the Ethnic Federalisim of EPRDF, this among other reasons had made them a prime target of the government’s brutality. The awassa killing SNNP also was not perceived as a Christian vs. Muslim, it was the government’s massacre of hundreds peaceful demonstrators. The same with the massacre of Ethiopians after the 2005 election in Addis Ababa. The list goes on, for the crime of the government on the Citizens is extensive. The present day Islamic reformation and its brutal aggression is a clearly a danger both to the human rights , and civil rights of those that do not follow its religious and political vision within the Ethiopian Muslim community as well as the Christians and other non Muslims.
Habte says => After all, Ethiopians in Addis still have security guards and housekeepers as a residual effect of slavery, which only ended, when in Ethiopia, oh right, 1931!!***
I found this historical/ anthropological analysis really funny! Does this analysis also applies to those household worker employers all over the world who would employ maids and security guards to protect them and also work in the household chore or guardners to tend thier gardens while they go out to work in the cities or simply because they can afford to employ the help? If so then all the corporations that employ janitors, maids, security guards , drivers etc are all suffering the residual effect of slavery ? or could it be that those city dwelling Ethiopians as well as those in the country side who could afford to heir help with what needs to be done at home, or farm, have resorted to employment of a skilled labor in the area they want help with, for an agreed upon price and working conditions, simply because its economically and time wise an effective as well as efficient move to do so? Does it offend your sensibility that poor Ethiopians have maids and security guards employed in their house? or has the definition of slavery changed as we know it?
You see No one has denied that the muslims of Ethiopia are Ethiopians least of all me, denying them will be denying myself. The Ethiopia I envision and pray about is one that will be a just and fair country for all her citizens. I pray to see Ethiopia become a democratic country with all the proper checks and balances of government in place, where the rule of a just law is supreme where the right of the minority is protected. This is why I do not support a monarchy in the present and future of Ethiopia as the monarchy represents a select group of people with a single religion, while Ethiopia is home to diverse ethnicities, language, and religion. Ethiopia must be home for all Ethiopians. You argue in terms of muslims vs. Christians, then from that you make a conclusion about the ideology, while the entire argument has been the nature of the Political and religious ideology of Islam vs. the Non-Muslim, as well as what it means to those muslims that are under such political hegemony in terms of their human and civil rights. [/b] Whethere there is christianity or not , whether there is budhisim or not what we are looking at is the impact of the Islamic world view,or ideology on human rights, peace and tolerance, peaceful coexistance with others, the respect of the equal civill rights of those under its law.
For the last time, An Ideology is the one that is being questioned, challenged here, not individual good or bad people. Islam controls the political and religious arena, this means it must be discussed what it means for those under it and others as a political ideology. We can condemn it as we have analyzed and condemned all forms of totalitarianisms that have no room for peaceful coexistence with others, we must first then acknowledge that there is a problem before we can deliberate on how it can be fixed. Currently there are those who are blatantly denying that there is a problem in the ideology itself. This ideology is not hiding itself, it is in fact open for all to see, but as it is true for most human history, a lot of atrocities and human right violations are faced with denial initially before they are acknowledged for what they are because they ended up knocking everyone’s doors.
***I found your “apology” interesting as it continues to call people bigots accuse them of prejudice, by putting words they have not said in their mouths mainly making the questioning of ideology as an attack against the individual people against ALL muslims, and their Ethiopian citizenship, while you present yourself as a man of benevolent deeds towards Ethiopia, and Ethiopians as well as a man who could talk to prejudice people like those in here and especially me, who like those muslims who burnt the Church hold a contrary idea. Isn’t it brilliant of you to present my idea as contrary as the ideas of those muslims who by the way you want to portray as not following the principles of Islamic ideology which you insist is a peaceful and tolerant one , therefore successfully portraying me and them in the same context. I have to applaud such skill, as I have admired your giving credit to yourself as having invested too seriously and scholarly as one working on a history paper when you were discussing the issue, which by the way you kept on twisting, into Muslims vs. Christians. Even though we kept telling you that it is not. Bottom line is before we can talk about the solutions we must talk about and understand the real essence of the problem.
To conclude, I do not enjoy these dragged out bickering, however, as one man I deeply respect have said ‘cursed be the man who taught me to write, for he gave me a burden!’ so if you my brother would refrain from applying the name Ethiopia while accusing people of bigotry , prejudice, racism, etc.. And the use of Tewahedo when you are chanting Jah Rastafari I, I will put an effort to stay out of whatever else you might have to say. But the moment those words are used or missused; know that they will summon me.
@ Filipinopilgrim +++ Here is the truth about what happened in the town of Assandabo in the oromia region.
Now I have added some video clips for those who managed to read this far about the main topic in here, the truth about Islam. Perhaps we need to hear the voices of those who speak for the voiceless...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q24sPWwoy3s the truth about Islam told by a former Sudanese slave.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqJ1hn76Ek Slave trade and Islam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNfC8Uduj0c&feature=related Brigitte Gabriel: a Survivor of Islamic Terror.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHikftWvobA Islam- what the west needs to know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrueU4xd2w&feature=related using democracy to kill democracy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkPJTRb9QSI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL the complete infidel’s Guide to the Koran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ur75Cg9Qg&feature=related Islam and Terrorism- the Truth about Muhammad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BLo0UtwtJc&NR=1&feature=endscreen Stealth Jihad
Ok I had a long day today, and the weekend has been the busiest for me, so I am tired, and sleepy however, this issue being the way it is, I decided to jot something before I call it a night.
pray for me a sinner!