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Author Topic: Discussion on the -political- situation in Ethiopia  (Read 3136 times) Average Rating: 0
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HabteSelassie
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« on: December 08, 2011, 04:57:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Life is more complicated than simplistic interpretations as "Christians good, Muslims bad" especially in Ethiopia!!

This is a tragedy to be sure, and I pray for my mother Church with all my heart, but that doesn't negate the reason of my mind.  In the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the "Christians" from the federal government and  militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone.  In 2005 the federal government was caught by the AU having committed acts of genocide against an extremely small minority ethnic population in a rural area of the SNNP, killing hundreds of people mercilessly (this was considered a genocide because this small ethnic group only numbered around a 1000 and the soldiers who did the killing openly used racial slurs).  This kind of violence is not exactly uncommon, and while its not always Christians involved, sometimes they are.

Further, in the complex and long history of Ethiopia, the Muslims and Christians in the South and East have been fighting wars against each other with atrocities and war crimes committed on both sides.  Essentially, many Muslims in Ethiopia have the same gripe against the Ethiopian government and  oligarchy as the Arabs have against the Americans.  Ethiopians haven't exactly best represented their Christianity to these folks, who were the victims of slaving raids and war parties for centuries!  

So lets not be so simple here as to say the Christians are good, and the Muslims are bad, because every Ethiopian on this forum understands that the Ethiopian governments over the past 40 plus years have been literally horrifying for ALL Ethiopians, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, "animist" or otherwise...

This is tragedy for Muslims as well as Christians, because the folks who burnt this Church do not represent all of Islam.  But I can't explain the forest for the trees, if folks can't see beyond prejudice then obviously it is beyond explanation, and only God can explain it in time.

Let us then pray for them, me, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 07:47:51 PM by serb1389 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2011, 08:34:56 PM »

This is the exact same thing they do and say in Egypt and Indonesia, the latter which has absolutely nothing in common with Ethiopian or Egyptian Muslims except Islam, but it has nothing to do with Islam? Sorry, its not prejudice to say it does, its the truth. Roll Eyes

Oh, and I forgot they also do the same thing in other countries as well.. Just about all of the -Stans for example. Just say a church doesn't have the proper permit, even if it does, and destroy it. Its a common practice and basically unique to situations of Muslims oppressing non-Muslims...
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 08:53:28 PM by Jason.Wike » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 12:58:04 AM »


First of all habte, can you please show me who in this thread has used the words ‘Christians good Muslims bad” except YOU? what you are trying to do is to divert the spotlight from the true face of Islam and make those who point out, the very self evident truth, that act of :intolerance violence, and despicable atrocity  that the religion and political ideology of Islam sanctions as HOLY, you want to portray them as racists, bigots as you have been consistently arguing, and make it sound like Christian people are against Muslim people which  in reality no one have said, except for within your own  mind . the real argument is not focusing on individuals its Islam as geopolitical ideology , against everything that is non Muslim, the victims now happen to be Christians and their way of life. So for the last time, we all know and agree that all Christians are not good and all Muslims are not bad, you perhaps regard yourself as the only one who thinks this way but sorry to disappoint you, or take away from whatever self-righteous pleasure you might have been getting from that perception, but you are preaching to the choir here. Instead what we are trying to point out, and the fact within the Quran with thousand years of Islamic Tradition uphold and teaches IS an enemy to human rights, tolerance and peaceful coexistence period. If you disagree  and believe Islam to be a religion of peace and tolerance , peaceful coexistence, respectful of human rights , then please say so and  prove your point without calling people racists , bigots etc.. when you have no credible reason to do so.
Second, you have said in the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the Christians from the federal government and militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone. Forgive my ignorance but is EPRDF/ TPLF with its MLLT PARTY (Marxist Leninist League tigray) a Christian party? As far as I know the party is made out of Communists who were following the Albanian communism model, who later renegotiated their position with Diplomatic attaches of the west to ditch their communist agenda and work with the west which they conceded to, and renamed themselves as revolutionary democratic parties in exchange for coming to power.  Under their rule which targeted the Orthodox Church which was a symbol of National Unity, to undermine her power, building of churches was to be derailed via astounding maze of bureaucracy while only in Addis Ababa within  the last 14 years only 130 new mosques have been built, making the total of mosques in the capital 180.the total mosque to Muslim ratio is unbelievable it is according to the census conducted in 1994 the city’s Ethiopian orthodox population was 82.0% while the Muslim population was 12.7% of the total population. This is also going on in other regions  the country at large also For example only in kokosa  a sub-region in Bale, for a Muslim community of less than 10 thousand  there are 60 mosques built, and more than 200 Medresas/ Islamic theology schools/ built! we know who is sending  the money that is coming to build these mosques, Medressas( and what is being taught in there), along with the karate and self defense schools they are opening all over the city and the country and why. at the time the total number of the Orthodox Churches were only 131. You need to read Ethiopian history a bit more  and even so the present day reality is not easy to access for non Ethiopians who do not see the day to day reality of the people. Going back to what you were saying about the Federal government Christians attacking the people of SNNP, it leaves me astounded because  other than the fact that the federal government is not a Christian government, the majority of the SNNP are CHRISTIANS( Orthodox, Evangelicals and Roman Catholics) so who is persecuting whom if you are trying to insinuate state sanctioned Christians from outside  attacking a Muslim state of SNNP, in an  orthodox Christian dominated(65.4% of the total population of the state) state of SNNP? In fact people of SNNP have been victims of Islamic violence.  Your intentional mixing of EPRDF’s action and the Islamist terror is very amazing. I get you are trying to confuse people and lead them to your conclusion and say with you these kinds of violence are not uncommon, and while it is not always Christians involved , sometimes they are. So …. The point  you are trying to make is: Islam is a peaceful religion ! ah if this was only in Ethiopia, I and the rest of Ethiopians would have been in a difficult position to be believed. Fortunately and unfortunately, this is not the political motivated problem of Ethiopia only as you are trying to portray it.


EPRDF dominates and subjugates everyone that is a fact, your twist and spin of it making it a Christian party thereby shifting the atrocities committed by that party as an act of Christians (Christianity) vs. others is nothing but an outrageous lie. A lie which can only be motivated by a desperate attempt to make people say oh well what else is new, Christianity sanctions killing, same as Islam, so quite sad, but oh well it happens, that is the kind of attitude you want to set, I am sorry for you, because facts speak differently about who sanctions killing, for I know even in times of war  where they must defend and preserve the good the Christian soldiers are under penance because Christianity as a religion does not sanction violence, while Islam will reward you with paradise for it. But like I said this goes beyond Muslims and Christians, rather it goes against an ideology of intolerance and subjugation of everything that is non Muslim. If you seek to denounce EPRDF then join the club Ethiopians at home and abroad have been doing so for years now, the genocide committed against the Agnwaks in gambela, and others like the genocide against Amharas in bedeno, by EPRDF and its pupates has been brought to light and will continue to be exposed by those Ethiopians committed to fighting the dictatorship and its atrocities but that is a different issue than what we are dealing with now.

Third, I cannot believe that you would make the Muslims targeted victims of Slavery and slave trade by Christians, OMG! Where have you learnt your history?!  It is true Slavery has existed nearly as old as history we know in different forms  and generally in Christian Ethiopia slavery was the lot of the conquered in domestic land disputes, and Christians have bought slaves, however it was essentially working for free( not that this is anything nice), with all other rights respected  along with political protection guarantied. However, with the aggressive sieges of the mehadist and Arab Muslim slave traders, do you know that the famous Muslim slave trader in Ethiopia was Abba Jiffar (a Muslim prince) and his ancestors who controlled the route of the slave trade from Ethiopia to both east and west of her and the rest of the Muslim raiders were the dominant if not the only ones who have unchecked highly profitable slave trade business? They are the ones who sold Ethiopians to the Arab and Turk slavers, in fact even to the North they were the ones who were selling slaves to the slave traders, and in fear of the Muslim slave traders, many Ethnicities in Ethiopia have been forced to mutilate their children to prevent them from being taken by the Muslim slave raiders, today you can see, lip mutilation, body scaring and hot branding all over the body, marrying girls at the earliest possible age, pulling the teeth of young boys permanently altering their bodies, ALL this was done out of desperation by parents to protect their children from being taken by the Muslim raiders, who were picking people who are young, healthy, unmarred, and virgins( because they wanted virgins to brutalize), for slaves. Today this practice has survived as a cultural identity, as well as an ever present reminder of what was done by the Muslim version of the slave trade. In the Christian kingdom the Feteha negest forbade Christians from being sold or selling slaves, however they could buy them and when they do the Ethiopian Slavery as any historian worth his salt knows is quite different from the kind we know that existed till present time. Even so slavery being inherently evil was declared illegal to be practiced in any form or shape in Ethiopia (even those captured by conquest of war were set free as long as they concede to defeat which previously would have made them slaves and indentured servants) and was abolished by the Emperor Tewodoros I then later even more enforced by the Emperor HailesilaseI.  I say only as a historical fact that will keep your un-proportional analysis of Ethiopia’s history. Not to evaluate the goodness or the badness of individual Muslims or Christians. As I have said before, that is not the issue here.


 And you refer to The Ethiopians as not representing their Christianity to the Muslims; I find that both sad and funny. Because looking back in history, there was an ample opportunity to return an eye for an eye, for what was done for 15 years of Islamic leadership in Ethiopia by Imam Ahmad Ibn Ibrahim (Gragn) yet when they came to power the Christians in Ethiopia showed Islam what it means to coexist in peace. Even while the wounds inflicted upon them by Islam was still fresh and painful. Yet we all understand  then as we do even today ,that the day Islam  becomes  the religion of  the majority ,the façade of peace between  Islam  and others that is present will vanish and  everyone in Ethiopia who is not a Muslim, who is : atheist, animist, whoever, will be a slave in his / her own country, a second class citizen at best, otherwise a mutilated dead corps somewhere. Even so if one were to look at your argument of were we to show Islam our Christianity it will be peaceful with us, then one must also assume that  when Monasteries were being burned, monks and nuns slaughtered, children raped, it must be because those people were not showing their Christianity. Perhaps since you are not an Ethiopian, you have the luxury of your comments and can twist and spin information to satisfy your pacifist beliefs, that does not mean any Ethiopian will agree with you or appreciate your misrepresentation of historical facts. Nor is this only happening in Ethiopia, it has knocked every door now, the time has come to face the facts.


You say let’s not be simple etc etc… however, If you have said the EPRDF is a Christian party initially then why are you counting it among those who have been bad to Christians, you are inconsistent to put it mildly in your facts and argument, all in your attempt to apologize for Islam. The fact is all dictatorships in Ethiopia have spilled the blood of millions of innocent Ethiopians. Islam is both a religious and political dictatorship combined, that seeks to make a one Ummha for Allah. As a dictatorship that has zero tolerance to the non-Muslim, it will systematically eradicate everything that is non Muslim. You are free to believe that the true Islam is holy and peaceful. But you cannot use the non- existent argument of all Christians are good and All Muslims are bad, to cover up the reality of what Islam teaches via its prophet and its sacred Tradition.


I have nothing further to say to you. Especially Ethiopian politics is the last thing I want to discuss with you. Going back to the relevant point of argument: it is inevitable that the true nature of Islam will be forced upon all to see, and history once again will bear witness to this.

Lord have mercy on your servants! Cry


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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 02:36:41 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Life is more complicated than simplistic interpretations as "Christians good, Muslims bad" especially in Ethiopia!!

This is a tragedy to be sure, and I pray for my mother Church with all my heart, but that doesn't negate the reason of my mind.  In the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the "Christians" from the federal government and  militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone.  In 2005 the federal government was caught by the AU having committed acts of genocide against an extremely small minority ethnic population in a rural area of the SNNP, killing hundreds of people mercilessly (this was considered a genocide because this small ethnic group only numbered around a 1000 and the soldiers who did the killing openly used racial slurs).  This kind of violence is not exactly uncommon, and while its not always Christians involved, sometimes they are.

Further, in the complex and long history of Ethiopia, the Muslims and Christians in the South and East have been fighting wars against each other with atrocities and war crimes committed on both sides.  Essentially, many Muslims in Ethiopia have the same gripe against the Ethiopian government and  oligarchy as the Arabs have against the Americans.  Ethiopians haven't exactly best represented their Christianity to these folks, who were the victims of slaving raids and war parties for centuries!  

So lets not be so simple here as to say the Christians are good, and the Muslims are bad, because every Ethiopian on this forum understands that the Ethiopian governments over the past 40 plus years have been literally horrifying for ALL Ethiopians, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, "animist" or otherwise...

This is tragedy for Muslims as well as Christians, because the folks who burnt this Church do not represent all of Islam.  But I can't explain the forest for the trees, if folks can't see beyond prejudice then obviously it is beyond explanation, and only God can explain it in time.

Let us then pray for them, me, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


I agree with you dear brother. Over-simplistic stereotypes never solve anything, they only serve to perpetuate prejudices. It's sad that some people are so politically motivated that they can't hear the Christian wisdom in your post (and then they ironically claim that they don't want to discuss politics with you Roll Eyes)

Let us pray for the restoration of the Monarchy, for the preservation of the Tewahedo Faith, and for peace in Ethiopia.


"Lord have mercy."


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2011, 02:57:33 AM »

^^ Injustice to one is Injustice to all! I will not be indifferent to or be remotely pleased at a burning of any Church, be it, Evangelical or Roman Catholic. your saying it is evil theoretically does not excuse your malicious sentiment.
 
but there is no suprise in the cheerleading that came from you Gebre, not suprising at all, the manner you have done so, speaks volumes in itself. Grin
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 12:12:11 PM »

No one has said all Muslims are bad people, that would be prejudice. People have said Islam causes people to do some things which are bad, which is a fact... I don't understand why people are so confused about this.

We're not supposed to judge people but that does not mean we should accept all ideas and beliefs as good when they are not. There are nice Muslims, and this might not represent them but do they represent Islam? Its saying nice people represent their religion regardless of whether they are in line with it or not, but unkind people don't represent their religion no matter what. Its just the popular newage junk "all religions really are the same and good."
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 12:24:50 PM »

I don't know what people are so upset about; I'm sure that the code requires a mob of people to burn down any building that doesn't fit the code.

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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 01:09:42 PM »

^^ Injustice to one is Injustice to all! I will not be indifferent to or be remotely pleased at a burning of any Church, be it, Evangelical or Roman Catholic. your saying it is evil theoretically does not excuse your malicious sentiment.
 
but there is no suprise in the cheerleading that came from you Gebre, not suprising at all, the manner you have done so, speaks volumes in itself. Grin


It is unchristian and unkind to falsely accuse me in the manner in which you have done here. I realize that you bear a personal grudge against me (a grudge which is by no means mutual), but that doesn't excuse your unfair attack on me. I clearly stated that the burning of any church is disturbing and evil, and that is not mere theory my dear sister. Nothing I said indicates in any way the "cheerleading" of such unfortunate acts. So, if you truly care about justice, then please begin by being fair and just in your comments to your fellow Christian brothers.


Selam
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 01:14:14 PM »

(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.
How is that even okay to say in a thread like this? Really.  Huh

At the very least it shows that you didn't read the original article before leaping on your soap box.
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 01:33:15 PM »

^^ Injustice to one is Injustice to all! I will not be indifferent to or be remotely pleased at a burning of any Church, be it, Evangelical or Roman Catholic. your saying it is evil theoretically does not excuse your malicious sentiment.
 
but there is no suprise in the cheerleading that came from you Gebre, not suprising at all, the manner you have done so, speaks volumes in itself. Grin


It is unchristian and unkind to falsely accuse me in the manner in which you have done here. I realize that you bear a personal grudge against me (a grudge which is by no means mutual), but that doesn't excuse your unfair attack on me. I clearly stated that the burning of any church is disturbing and evil, and that is not mere theory my dear sister. Nothing I said indicates in any way the "cheerleading" of such unfortunate acts. So, if you truly care about justice, then please begin by being fair and just in your comments to your fellow Christian brothers.


Selam

As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.

This comment looks rather 'unchristian' itself however. If you think that the destruction of a protestant church is evil, why not just leave it at that, and not cause an uproar by stating that you regard them as somehow being less deserving of your sympathy?
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 01:40:25 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Life is more complicated than simplistic interpretations as "Christians good, Muslims bad" especially in Ethiopia!!

This is a tragedy to be sure, and I pray for my mother Church with all my heart, but that doesn't negate the reason of my mind.  In the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the "Christians" from the federal government and  militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone.  In 2005 the federal government was caught by the AU having committed acts of genocide against an extremely small minority ethnic population in a rural area of the SNNP, killing hundreds of people mercilessly (this was considered a genocide because this small ethnic group only numbered around a 1000 and the soldiers who did the killing openly used racial slurs).  This kind of violence is not exactly uncommon, and while its not always Christians involved, sometimes they are.

Further, in the complex and long history of Ethiopia, the Muslims and Christians in the South and East have been fighting wars against each other with atrocities and war crimes committed on both sides.  Essentially, many Muslims in Ethiopia have the same gripe against the Ethiopian government and  oligarchy as the Arabs have against the Americans.  Ethiopians haven't exactly best represented their Christianity to these folks, who were the victims of slaving raids and war parties for centuries!  

So lets not be so simple here as to say the Christians are good, and the Muslims are bad, because every Ethiopian on this forum understands that the Ethiopian governments over the past 40 plus years have been literally horrifying for ALL Ethiopians, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, "animist" or otherwise...

This is tragedy for Muslims as well as Christians, because the folks who burnt this Church do not represent all of Islam.  But I can't explain the forest for the trees, if folks can't see beyond prejudice then obviously it is beyond explanation, and only God can explain it in time.

Let us then pray for them, me, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


I agree with you dear brother. Over-simplistic stereotypes never solve anything, they only serve to perpetuate prejudices. It's sad that some people are so politically motivated that they can't hear the Christian wisdom in your post (and then they ironically claim that they don't want to discuss politics with you Roll Eyes)

Let us pray for the restoration of the Monarchy, for the preservation of the Tewahedo Faith, and for peace in Ethiopia.


"Lord have mercy."


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam

Shame on you Gebre. Shame.

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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 04:18:53 PM »

A crowd including police officers and students attacked and burned the St. Arsema Orthodox Church in the town of Quto Baloso, Ethiopia. They did so on the claim that the church roof was not built according to code, but there appear to have been other motives as well.

From the article:
Quote
A source reported to ICC that Hassan Shomolo, a chief of Qebet district police, deployed more than 30 police officers to destroy the church. The police managed to only demolish the roof of the church because Christians in the area protested.

And I thought our building inspectors were bad.
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« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 05:55:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
First things first.  I am only discussing these controversial matters because I am afraid that this bad news will fuel a lot of angst against Ethiopian Muslims, and anymore tension between ourselves and them will only bring on further disasters.  We need to INCREASE our communication, not drive further wedges between us.  A lack of communication breeds intolerance, prejudice, and yes, violence, whereas an increase in communication builds, tolerance, mutual respect, and even a pluralistic community.  Ethiopia has always maintained good relationships not just with her domestic Muslims, but the Muslim world in general.  During the Crusades, Ethiopian Christians always maintained relatively free-access to the Holy Lands because the Muslims there trusted and favored the Ethiopians and even today, one of Ethiopia's largest trading partners isn't the United States, it isn't Israel, it isn't the EU, its Saudi Arabia!!! Clearly then the "beef" between Ethiopians and Muslims has been exaggerated by a political minority with a nefarious agenda, because both history and contemporary circumstances simply do not warrant such speculations.

No one has said all Muslims are bad people, that would be prejudice. People have said Islam causes people to do some things which are bad, which is a fact... I don't understand why people are so confused about this.
ot, but unkind people don't represent their religion no matter what. Its just the popular newage junk "all religions really are the same and good."
By definition, to generalize across the entire spectrum what Islam is and isn't is prejudice, and to harbor negative sentiments about all Muslims because of misinterpretations of Islam is bigotry. There are Muslims who want to go to war with Christians, and there are Muslims who do not.  It gets complicated, for example, Al Shabab has declared war against the Ethiopian regime since 2006, and have pulled of dozens of bombings across Ethiopia, however, their leadership has explicitly stated several times that they are not at war with Ethiopian Christians, their war is with the Ethiopian government, and that they respect the edicts issued by Mo hammed which explicitly forbids Jihad against Ethiopian Christians because of the kindness they showed the prophet and his family during their exile. 

To Hiwot.. 
I never said the Ethiopian regime is a Christian regime, I said there were surely Christians within the regime, do you care to dispute that Ethiopian Christians are not in positions of political power in Ethiopia or not members of the armed services? Hardly a believable sentiment in a country that's political system has been dominated by regional Christian oligarchies for centuries. Further, I never said Christians sanctioned killing, I AM AN ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN, why would I condemn our Mother that way?

 But facts are fact, and as you stated,
Quote
EPRDF dominates and subjugates everyone
and for better or worse, a lot of Muslims, especially Somalis and Oromos, because of the longstanding tensions of a history of slavery and Christian Imperial expansion has distorted their perspective.  Rightly or wrongly, these Ethiopian Muslims perceive any government persecution of them through this historical lens.  I never said Christians persecute Muslims in Ethiopia, but Muslims do feel this way, and so obviously we as Christians need to go OUT OF OUR WAY to dispel and disprove this kind of gossip. I am also glad you are familiar with the genocidee in Gambela, I never tried to insinuate that it was a Christian genocide against folks, rather that many folks from the SNNP perceived it as such, I only brought it up to point out the complicated and divisive sociopolitical conditions in the SNNP where this particular Church was burnt, so folks on the forum could see this incident in its proper context.

Also, I appreciate your jab and my understanding of ye'Ityopya tarik, but sorry my dear, I am quite well versed in Ethiopian  history.  For example, recently  you mistakenly used a speech that Atse Menelik II gave at the head of battle at Adwa, and you took it entirely out of context as if it were a rally cry to war against Muslims as the enemy.  Did you realize that Atse Menelik was ridiculously generous to the Italians, keeping the Italian prisoners of war in better conditions than he allowed for even his own population which was routinely subjected to pillage and plunder by the Imperial armies?  Within weeks Atse Menelik had revived cordial relations with the Italians, even when many of the Rases cried for vengeance and retaliation, and he was highly favorable to the 5000 or so Italian prisoners, and established quite friendly relations with those treacherous Italians even after the bungle of the Treaty of Wichale.  Atse Menelik demonstrated Christian virtues of patience, mercy, and hospitality, even to his avowed enemies! Hardly the hawkish war-cry you insinuated when you quoted the Emperor out of context.  The speech you quoted was not a political speech, it was a battle cry, that should only have been taken directly in the context of that specific battle, because clearly his actions after that battle were contrary to the ideas you proposed.

Further, of course Ethiopia is increasing in numbers of mosques and Islamic schools, Ethiopia has always had a large Muslim population, the difference is that it wasn't until 1992 that Mosques and schools were allowed to be built with less restrictions.  So logically we are seeing an explosion in Mosque building because Ethiopian Muslims have always had a shortage in comparison to their proportional demographics. We as Christians should have more confidence in Our God then to be afraid or anxious by this. Mosque building isn't exactly the Gragn, and further, much like the 9/11 Mosque controversy, if anything its more in favor of our interests to allow Mosques to be buildt to enfranchise and legitimize Muslim populations, otherwise if they feel continually disenfranchised it will only encourage radicalization, where as Mosque building increases dialogue and legitimization.  We can't get rid of Islam in America, neither in Ethiopia, so the best thing we can hope for is dialogue, managed growth, and reciprocal and mutual relationship building

Lastly, I never exactly said that the Muslims were victims of slave raiding (in fact the Muslims were the raiders in partnership with the Christian merchants, slave raiding was illegal for Christians, but not slave trading), rather that in the SNNP and Oromo regions (places which are largely Muslim today) that there is an extensive history of slavery and Imperial conquest, and this is a history which these folks from the South keep in their collective imaginations.  Many Southern Ethiopian Muslims remember this history, and for better or worse it enters into the political discourse of the parties and militias in these regions. After all, Ethiopians in Addis still have security guards and housekeepers as a residual affect of slavery, which only ended, when in Ethiopia, oh right, 1931!!

I would like to state this once and for all!!

We are Christians, how can we then be so presumptuous as to say we can define the "true intentions" of Islam? Nonsense, and as I have stated before, it is prejudiced nonsense, and further when prejudice becomes negative, vitriolic, and hostile, that prejudice has unfortunately evolved into bigotry, and bigotry is dangerous.

I pray for our Mother the Church in Ethiopia, not simply because a parish has been burnt, but because I fear that a lack of communication is fueling the potential for an unnecessary civil war in Ethiopia.  Across Ethiopian history, whenever either the Christians or the governments have a lack of communication with the Muslims, civil war tends to be the reaction.  Whenever there is dialogue, there is peace.  God is the peacemaker, not the sword, be it Christian or Muslim, be He called Igziabeher or Allah by His followers, the sword is not God, it is the flesh.   But as Jesus Christ said, "Blessed are the peacemakers."

stay blessed,
habte selassie



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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2011, 08:24:19 PM »

These Zombies will never cease from murdering the human soul for their bloodthirsty beast. They will soon pay for their barbaric acts.

Hiwot, great "Orthodox" reply to the lukewarm "Habte" dude. I just read some of his comments on this site, he seems to be restless whenever there is a Muslim thing, and he is quick to apologize for the acts of the Ishmaelite zombies.

“And you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I am going to vomit you from my mouth.” Rev.3:16
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 08:49:57 PM »


Ok I will use a bit of Ethiopian history  to give certain important perspective ....

The Emperor Minilik II  implored the Fascists not to resort to war, but told them  if they come that he will meet them on the battle field. After the battle of Adwa where the fascists were defeated, he held a burial service for the enemy soldiers and wept saying “ curse the fascists for they made me spill Christian blood’’ but to protect what was his duty to protect he would have done it again.  he did not see all the Italian soldiers that came as his enemy as being hardliners as their leaders. however the result is the same, they were there as weapons, hoping to gain one thing or another in the event of victory.

He( Menelik II)  who was loved by the people so much for his justice and mercy, that they called him Emiye minilik/  beloved mother minilik, was also known for his love and devotion to the Mother of God, and even in his edict of war  to stress that he meant what he said he declared: ‘

"Assemble the army, beat the drum (Kitet Serawit, Mita Negarit!). God in his bounty has struck down my enemies and enlarged my Empire, preserving me to this day. I have reigned by the grace of God. As we must all die someday, I will not be afflicted if I die, but enemies have come who would ruin our country and change our religion. They have passed beyond the sea that God gave us for our border. I, aware that herds were decimated and people were exhausted, did not wish to do anything until now. These enemies have advanced, burrowing into the country like moles. With the help of God, I will get rid of them. Men of my country, up till now, I believe I have never wronged you, and you have never caused me sorrow. Now, you who are strong, lend me your strong arms (your might), and you who are weak, help me with your prayers, while you think of your children, your wife, and your faith. If you refuse to follow me, beware. You will hate me for I shall not fail to punish you. I swear in the name of Mary that I will never accept any plea of pardon. Men of Shewa, assemble and meet me at Were Illu, and may you be there by the middle of Tiqimt(October). So says Menelik, Elect of God, King of Kings!"

Source => Atse Menelik (Emperor Menelik) Author: Paulos NgoNgo, Bole Publishing (Second Edition 1990) in amharic

 Menelik’s  wisdom in understanding his enemy and as a protector of what is his duty to protect  as well as balancing the demands of his Christian faith especially his utter devotion to  St. Mary was also manifested in the release of one prisoner back to his widowed mother at a time where releasing prisoners freely would have potentially put him at risk. This is a perfect example of being wise like a serpent, meek like the dove, loving your enemy and doing good to those who persecute you. This wisdom has always been the highest standard all strive to live out  in the heart of Christian Ethiopia when they were defending their rights and the rights of others.


“Following the unification of Italy and the establishment of Rome as it's capital, the Pope had lost all political power in what had been his city and the former Papal states that he had ruled directly from there. As a result, relations between the Vatican and the Italian Government were poor, and would remain so until a concordat was signed much later in the 1920's with Mussolini. The Vatican apparently thought this was the perfect opportunity to undermine the Italian government in the eyes of the people by negotiating the freedom of the captives on its own. Pope Leo XIII therefore wrote a letter to Emperor Menelik in May 1896 urging mercy and clemency. To deliver the message, the Pope chose Bishop Macarios, a young Coptic Catholic from the small Coptic community in Egypt that had allegiance to Rome rather than Alexandria. The young bishop arrived in Addis Ababa and apparently got on very well with the Emperor, but the Emperor was shrewd enough to realize that dealing with the Vatican rather than the Quirinale would not be in the best interests of ending the conflict with Italy. He sent the Pope a respectful letter giving his word that the prisoners would not be molested in any way, but asking for His Holinesses understanding, since "...my duty as king and father of my people prevents me from sacrificing the sole guarantee of peace that I have with me". As a token of his respect for the Papal throne however, he released one prisoner who was very ill and allowed him to return to Italy with Bishop Macarios. Not long after this episode, another occurred that showed Menelik's compassionate nature. The Emperor was told that one of the Italian soldiers being kept by the Imperial household had received a letter from his widowed mother in Naples. Apparently, upon reading her letter, the soldier had become extremely inconsolable and was weeping loudly and bitterly. Menelik ordered the soldier brought before him and had a translator read the letter. The distraught mother had written her son saying that she now spent her days weeping in the local St. Mary's church, begging the Mother of God to bring her son home to her, a weak and lonely widow whose life had no meaning without her only child. When the Emperor heard what was written, his eyes filled with tears and he said "The tears of your mother, and our shared love for the Mother of God have freed you. Go back to your mother, and tell her that the Holy Virgin has returned you to her."

Atse Menelik (Emperor Menelik) Author: Paulos NgoNgo, Bole Publishing (Second Edition 1990) Amharic

http://www.angelfire.com/ny/ethiocrown/menelik.html

NB.the above website was quoted as far as it correlated to the  historical records for the sake of translation only. However, I must note it is a biased site in its present day assessment of things ,as we do not have those books  in English online, I have used the only alternative left and quoted it.

I think the above historical records show, how one must keep the delicate act of balancing  being vigilant and aware that the enemy means you harm, showing him mercy along with justice even in times of outright war.
Selam to all.


The above quote was necessary because your lack of understanding of Ethiopian history my friend, the entire context was to demonstrate Minilik’s Christian ethics, while dealing with his Fascist enemies! Especially his fame for loving the Mother of God is well known among Ethiopians, had you known this particular fame that sets him as being most devout to her, you would have understood the point I was making without me explaining it to you, even just by reading what I wrote plainly. Again  let me reass that a Christian can love his enemy and do good to them even while he does what he must to protect the innocents in his care.ure you that I did not quote it mistakenly as you seem to think, it was intentional, to show you You seem to think the Christian is one who will not stand in the way of his family being slaughtered, his country taken, because he loves his enemy that is a misrepresentation of the Gospel that the colonialists tried to use with us. Forget it! here is another lesson on fighting for your right while being a christian. http://www.ethiopians.com/abune_petros.htm 

Your going on about how minilik was kind to his enemies, that only stresses the point that I was making, he went to war with them defeated them and showed them mercy afterwards in the best way he could. Ethiopians have learnt this lesson very well time and again, that if you do not call fascism evil and instead call it modernization , developmental Endeavour, civilization etc. then you will be the Slave to the Eldorado the fascist will build in your own country. Now Islam is without any doubt as stated by the Quran and as taught by  its militant prophet the epitome of dictatorship , subjugation, on both the political and religious side. You feel it is a peaceful religion, good for you! now for those Ethiopians who are facing the evil of Islam day by day, you have to allow them to speak for what they know. every time there is dictatorship, slavery, and slaughter, men of honor have fought for their rights, Christians in Ethiopia will one day say enough is enough, as the rest of the world will do so as well. There are many ways to battle dictatorship, there are  many ways to close the slaughter house Islam opens up each time it becomes the majority in any land. We as Christians will have to come up with the best solution for it. But all this can only happen when we acknowledge the evil of Islam with NON_NEGOTIATIABLE  Quran and the Islamic Tradition, towards all human rights, civil rights, Now than become like the ostrich with its head stuck in the sand for fear of any kind of conflict. Until equal rights and mutual respect and tolerance  can be recognized by Islam which will never be because the Quran cannot be changed by any human, and sharia is the Law of Allah, then even if we were to try to avoid war, it will be forced upon us , unless we can agree to the terms of the Sharia.

As to the new mosques , and madrasas being built no one argues that they cannot build to cater to the population of Muslims in their area, however the disproportionate ratio of mosque to the number of Muslims in the districts speaks for itself, who is funding what, the Islamists in Ethiopia have put forward their demand that Ethiopia should be a member of the Organization of Islamic Countries (IOC) by the usual forgery of documents, and distortion of facts , they said Islam is the religion of the  Majority in Ethiopia. This distorted document went in so far as being used by the US, International religious freedom report. Anyway, in Ethiopia it is not because the Christians have no confidence in God that they are protesting the violation of their rights and the injustice they are facing every day, but it is because it is the right thing to do. The militant Islam is quite busy being funded by the Saudis and others to overrun the country with Militant Islam, at the same time destroying anything Christian along the way, orthodox,RC, Protestant. These are the victims of Islam now, however later when it is victorious the atheists and the animists will also be taken to the slaughter house. How you can explain it is beyond me, that your business. However fear of conflict alone will not hold people to be slaves for too long.

If you feel like you can talk to Islam to teach it tolerance and mutual respect for the Non Muslim, good for you. Go try it in Middle East, let me know how that went for you. We will call you a great peace maker then. Perhaps we can also negotiate with the devil; if we can talk to him he might change his mind too and become loving and tolerant. I for one am all for that kind of change both from Islam and the Devil.

Anyway I am done with this thread, like I said, all the political stuff you brought will not overshadow the one fact that crosses the border and politics of Ethiopia , and is being demonstrated time and again as we speak all over the world, is being taught by the Imams, is recorded and sanctioned by Quran: Jihad will a martyr make with paradise his reward. There is the Land of Islam, and there is the Land of the Sword. This is not Christianity vs. Islam , no it is Islam vs. Human rights, Islam vs. Peaceful coexistence, Islam vs. Liberty, Islam vs. Tolerance, Islam vs. Peace!

Yes blessed are the peacemakers!
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 10:54:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I will no longer argue with Hiwot, it is clear we have a difference of opinion.  I would just like to state for the record however, since lately Hiwot has been slandering my reputation here on OC.net, that I have a BA with honors in specifically Ethiopian History, something which even 30% of college history professors in Ethiopia don't even have, so I am not exactly stupid about these matters Smiley

So she and I may disagree about how to interpret the facts of history (after all this is exactly what we all do with history isn't it?), and perhaps we are both biased by our ideologies.  But I will interject my major point so y'all can understand my axe that I am grinding a bit inappropriately and yet crucially crucial all things considering.   Again, prejudice is to make broad generalizations and assumptions about an entire group or people or religion.  Bigotry is when prejudice becomes negative, vitriolic, and even hateful.  Both prejudice and bigotry have been expressed on this thread, and on this forum.

The bigotry expressed here is to assume that ALL Ethiopian Muslims are somehow the enemy or at war with Ethiopian Christians, this is simply not true.  Atse Menelik never practiced such, even when he warred against Muslim kingdoms, princes, and militias, he always understood the difference between fighting a specific enemy, and assuming all folks of a similar culture, religion, or ethnicity are also your enemy.  Some Muslims in Ethiopia are at war with either Christians or the federal government, but I will continue to loudly insist that it is prejudiced to assume that ALL Muslims in Ethiopia feel that way.  

All of Islam didn't burn down this church, some Muslims did, and if folks can't see the difference, then I will never be able to explain it.  Some folks intuitively understand that Nazism is wrong, and yet there are still neo-Nazis who disagree, and so clearly it is not self-evident or self-explanatory, and this is a similar matter.  If folks can't see the prejudice and bigotry expressed here against Islam and Muslims as wrong, then they can't see the forest for the trees and I'll never be able to explain it until God reveals it in time, so all I can do is pray pray pray..


By the way, what do the Apostles have to say about situations like these?

Quote
Now the finish: Be all of like disposition, sympathetic, fond of brethren, tenderly compassionate, of humble disposition, NOT RENDERING EVIL FOR EVIL, or REVILING FOR REVILING, but on the CONTRARY, blessing, seeing that you were called for this, that you should be enjoying the allotment of blessing, for:  He who is wanting to love life and acquainted with good days, let his tongue cease from evil, and his lips speak no guile.  Now let him avoid evil and do good. Let him SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.  For the eyes of the Lord are on the just and His ears are for their petition, yet the face of the Lord is on evil doers.  And is there anyone who will be ill-treating you, if you you should come zealous for good? Yet if you may be suffering also because of righteousness, happy are you. NOW YOU MAY NOT BE AFRAID WITH THEIR FEAR, NOR YET BE DISTURBED, yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but WITH MEEKNESS AND FEAR, having a good conscience, that, in what they are speaking against you as evil doers, they be mortified, who traduce you good behavior in Christ. For it is better to be suffering for doing good, if the will of God be willing, than for doing evil, seeing that Christ also for our sakes once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God.."
1 Peter 3:8-18

I pray for this Church that was burnt, especially that folks on all sides cool down rather than flare up.
stay blessed,
habte selassie

« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 11:02:27 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 11:28:11 PM »

No one has said all Muslims are bad people, that would be prejudice. People have said Islam causes people to do some things which are bad, which is a fact... I don't understand why people are so confused about this.
ot, but unkind people don't represent their religion no matter what. Its just the popular newage junk "all religions really are the same and good."
By definition, to generalize across the entire spectrum what Islam is and isn't is prejudice, and to harbor negative sentiments about all Muslims because of misinterpretations of Islam is bigotry.


Sorry but this sounds like some relativistic junk. Everything is something, some things are bad, some are good, some are evil, some are holy. Whatever they are. But it is not prejudice to say something is what it is, that is the "fascism of relativism" I think the Roman Pope calls it.

It must be nice to be able to scream "bigotry" and "prejudice" to silence and slander those who disagree with you.
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 11:37:45 PM »

Ok, and then likening people to neo-nazis? Really? This is just stupid no matter what anyone says.
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 11:42:03 PM »

Ok, and then likening people to neo-nazis? Really? This is just stupid no matter what anyone says.

When are the retro-nazis coming back into style?

Sorry once nazis AND zombies have been invoked, the thread has lost all its seriousness.

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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 11:51:39 PM »

Well I'm not giving up on it until the communists show up...
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 11:54:18 PM »

Well I'm not giving up on it until the communists show up...

We all have our battles to fight my friend . . .

Be vigilant!
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2011, 12:11:58 AM »

These Zombies will never cease from murdering the human soul for their bloodthirsty beast. They will soon pay for their barbaric acts.

Hiwot, great "Orthodox" reply to the lukewarm "Habte" dude. I just read some of his comments on this site, he seems to be restless whenever there is a Muslim thing, and he is quick to apologize for the acts of the Ishmaelite zombies.

“And you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I am going to vomit you from my mouth.” Rev.3:16

Did they video tape the Zombies?  None of my friends believe me when I say I've seen one; they all think I'm hallucinating.  I'm glad other people have seen Zombies too.

Anyways, I never knew you could kill a soul.  Do you have to use Quel' Serrar to kill it?
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2011, 12:17:00 AM »

I've called Muslims a lot of names.....but never zombies.
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« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2011, 02:11:43 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Life is more complicated than simplistic interpretations as "Christians good, Muslims bad" especially in Ethiopia!!

This is a tragedy to be sure, and I pray for my mother Church with all my heart, but that doesn't negate the reason of my mind.  In the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the "Christians" from the federal government and  militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone.  In 2005 the federal government was caught by the AU having committed acts of genocide against an extremely small minority ethnic population in a rural area of the SNNP, killing hundreds of people mercilessly (this was considered a genocide because this small ethnic group only numbered around a 1000 and the soldiers who did the killing openly used racial slurs).  This kind of violence is not exactly uncommon, and while its not always Christians involved, sometimes they are.

Further, in the complex and long history of Ethiopia, the Muslims and Christians in the South and East have been fighting wars against each other with atrocities and war crimes committed on both sides.  Essentially, many Muslims in Ethiopia have the same gripe against the Ethiopian government and  oligarchy as the Arabs have against the Americans.  Ethiopians haven't exactly best represented their Christianity to these folks, who were the victims of slaving raids and war parties for centuries!  

So lets not be so simple here as to say the Christians are good, and the Muslims are bad, because every Ethiopian on this forum understands that the Ethiopian governments over the past 40 plus years have been literally horrifying for ALL Ethiopians, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, "animist" or otherwise...

This is tragedy for Muslims as well as Christians, because the folks who burnt this Church do not represent all of Islam.  But I can't explain the forest for the trees, if folks can't see beyond prejudice then obviously it is beyond explanation, and only God can explain it in time.

Let us then pray for them, me, and us all.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


I agree with you dear brother. Over-simplistic stereotypes never solve anything, they only serve to perpetuate prejudices. It's sad that some people are so politically motivated that they can't hear the Christian wisdom in your post (and then they ironically claim that they don't want to discuss politics with you Roll Eyes)

Let us pray for the restoration of the Monarchy, for the preservation of the Tewahedo Faith, and for peace in Ethiopia.


"Lord have mercy."


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam

Shame on you Gebre. Shame.

PP


Shame on you and others who choose to ignore my clear words in order to ascribe false motives to me. That kind of stuff gets very irritating. Really.

And for those of you who want to pass your self-righteous judgment against me, let me ask you a question: will you weep if there are no more mosques in Ethiopia?


Selam
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« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2011, 02:11:45 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I will no longer argue with Hiwot, it is clear we have a difference of opinion.  I would just like to state for the record however, since lately Hiwot has been slandering my reputation here on OC.net, that I have a BA with honors in specifically Ethiopian History, something which even 30% of college history professors in Ethiopia don't even have, so I am not exactly stupid about these matters Smiley

So she and I may disagree about how to interpret the facts of history (after all this is exactly what we all do with history isn't it?), and perhaps we are both biased by our ideologies.  But I will interject my major point so y'all can understand my axe that I am grinding a bit inappropriately and yet crucially crucial all things considering.   Again, prejudice is to make broad generalizations and assumptions about an entire group or people or religion.  Bigotry is when prejudice becomes negative, vitriolic, and even hateful.  Both prejudice and bigotry have been expressed on this thread, and on this forum.

The bigotry expressed here is to assume that ALL Ethiopian Muslims are somehow the enemy or at war with Ethiopian Christians, this is simply not true.  Atse Menelik never practiced such, even when he warred against Muslim kingdoms, princes, and militias, he always understood the difference between fighting a specific enemy, and assuming all folks of a similar culture, religion, or ethnicity are also your enemy.  Some Muslims in Ethiopia are at war with either Christians or the federal government, but I will continue to loudly insist that it is prejudiced to assume that ALL Muslims in Ethiopia feel that way.  

All of Islam didn't burn down this church, some Muslims did, and if folks can't see the difference, then I will never be able to explain it.  Some folks intuitively understand that Nazism is wrong, and yet there are still neo-Nazis who disagree, and so clearly it is not self-evident or self-explanatory, and this is a similar matter.  If folks can't see the prejudice and bigotry expressed here against Islam and Muslims as wrong, then they can't see the forest for the trees and I'll never be able to explain it until God reveals it in time, so all I can do is pray pray pray..


By the way, what do the Apostles have to say about situations like these?

Quote
Now the finish: Be all of like disposition, sympathetic, fond of brethren, tenderly compassionate, of humble disposition, NOT RENDERING EVIL FOR EVIL, or REVILING FOR REVILING, but on the CONTRARY, blessing, seeing that you were called for this, that you should be enjoying the allotment of blessing, for:  He who is wanting to love life and acquainted with good days, let his tongue cease from evil, and his lips speak no guile.  Now let him avoid evil and do good. Let him SEEK PEACE AND PURSUE IT.  For the eyes of the Lord are on the just and His ears are for their petition, yet the face of the Lord is on evil doers.  And is there anyone who will be ill-treating you, if you you should come zealous for good? Yet if you may be suffering also because of righteousness, happy are you. NOW YOU MAY NOT BE AFRAID WITH THEIR FEAR, NOR YET BE DISTURBED, yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but WITH MEEKNESS AND FEAR, having a good conscience, that, in what they are speaking against you as evil doers, they be mortified, who traduce you good behavior in Christ. For it is better to be suffering for doing good, if the will of God be willing, than for doing evil, seeing that Christ also for our sakes once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God.."
1 Peter 3:8-18

I pray for this Church that was burnt, especially that folks on all sides cool down rather than flare up.
stay blessed,
habte selassie




Amen, amen, amen.


Selam
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« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2011, 02:11:45 AM »


As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.

This comment looks rather 'unchristian' itself however. If you think that the destruction of a protestant church is evil, why not just leave it at that, and not cause an uproar by stating that you regard them as somehow being less deserving of your sympathy?

I am only being honest my friend. The "Pente" movement is quite demonic and has casued great harm in Ethiopia. They target Orthodox Christians for their evangelistic efforts, and many have been led away from the True Faith by these wolves. In spite of that, I still condemn the acts of these certain Muslim extremists. However, if the Monarchy is restored and the King demolishes mosques and other houses of false religious worship, then I will not weep but rather rejoice. I hardly see how this makes me unchristian.


Selam
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« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2011, 02:57:30 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My heart moved me to post here this thing.  While I do not retract my statements and accusations of bigotry and prejudice, and I continue to affirm that we as Ethiopian Orthodox Christians need to react in a constructive and communicative way to this issue between Ethiopian Muslims and Christians, I also have been to harsh in my dialogue with Sister Hiwot here.  We have a misunderstanding, but perhaps I approached our discussion a bit to enthusiastically as if it were a history paper, and not a conversation.

She is an Ethiopian, and I am duty bound to respect her opinions, even if I disagree with them.  It would be naive of me not to.  I have dedicated my entire adult life to the cause of Ethiopia, through advocacy, fundraising, education, awareness, community building, networking, etc etc.  All my best job offers are in Ethiopia.  Much of my networking is in Ethiopia, and even here in Los Angeles I am deeply embedded within the Ethiopian ex-pat community, teaching the children and building a relationship around the needs of the community here.  That being said, that is also why I am so sensitive to both the Muslim and Christian Ethiopian needs, it is not one vs the other, BOTH groups are naturally, politically, and indigenously Ethiopian, and we who love Ethiopia must learn to bridge the gap and represent all interests mutually.  That is why I have seemingly defended Ethiopian Muslims here on this particular thread, even though some Muslims are the ones who burnt our Church, because I am afraid that a lack of communication can exasperate and worsen the situation.  Both peoples are Ethiopian, and for the sake of Ethiopia both peoples will inevitably have to get along.  HOWEVER, I have also been to rash against Sis Hiwot then, because she is Ethiopian, and her interests and insights are equally valid, equally important, equally part of the discussion.  In order to bridge the gap, she needs to be included, even if her ideas are contrary, after all some of these Muslims clearly have contrary ideas as well.  In time, only love can save us from ourselves, only love and build a true Ethiopia, only love can bridge the gap. 

So I love all the folks here, and I love all the Ethiopians (Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise) and I love Sis Hiwot and as an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian who is involved actively in the Church ministries, I am duty bound and dedicated to her needs as well.  I can only pray that since I see where she is coming from, perhaps in time she might see where I am coming from, and where the Ethiopian Muslims are coming from as well, and we can truly bridge all gaps in the Lord.

My apologies to all, lets pray for the Church first, but in the process that all peoples be reconciled through Her.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2011, 03:09:47 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My heart moved me to post here this thing.  While I do not retract my statements and accusations of bigotry and prejudice, and I continue to affirm that we as Ethiopian Orthodox Christians need to react in a constructive and communicative way to this issue between Ethiopian Muslims and Christians, I also have been to harsh in my dialogue with Sister Hiwot here.  We have a misunderstanding, but perhaps I approached our discussion a bit to enthusiastically as if it were a history paper, and not a conversation.

She is an Ethiopian, and I am duty bound to respect her opinions, even if I disagree with them.  It would be naive of me not to.  I have dedicated my entire adult life to the cause of Ethiopia, through advocacy, fundraising, education, awareness, community building, networking, etc etc.  All my best job offers are in Ethiopia.  Much of my networking is in Ethiopia, and even here in Los Angeles I am deeply embedded within the Ethiopian ex-pat community, teaching the children and building a relationship around the needs of the community here.  That being said, that is also why I am so sensitive to both the Muslim and Christian Ethiopian needs, it is not one vs the other, BOTH groups are naturally, politically, and indigenously Ethiopian, and we who love Ethiopia must learn to bridge the gap and represent all interests mutually.  That is why I have seemingly defended Ethiopian Muslims here on this particular thread, even though some Muslims are the ones who burnt our Church, because I am afraid that a lack of communication can exasperate and worsen the situation.  Both peoples are Ethiopian, and for the sake of Ethiopia both peoples will inevitably have to get along.  HOWEVER, I have also been to rash against Sis Hiwot then, because she is Ethiopian, and her interests and insights are equally valid, equally important, equally part of the discussion.  In order to bridge the gap, she needs to be included, even if her ideas are contrary, after all some of these Muslims clearly have contrary ideas as well.  In time, only love can save us from ourselves, only love and build a true Ethiopia, only love can bridge the gap. 

So I love all the folks here, and I love all the Ethiopians (Muslim, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise) and I love Sis Hiwot and as an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian who is involved actively in the Church ministries, I am duty bound and dedicated to her needs as well.  I can only pray that since I see where she is coming from, perhaps in time she might see where I am coming from, and where the Ethiopian Muslims are coming from as well, and we can truly bridge all gaps in the Lord.

My apologies to all, lets pray for the Church first, but in the process that all peoples be reconciled through Her.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Give thanks for your wisdom and humility. I agree with you 100%. May God have mercy on us all, and may we all strive to be merciful with one another.


Selam
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2011, 11:41:50 AM »

It seems that Ethiopian Muslims have problems of their own:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ethiopianamerican-muslim-ad-hoc-committee-says-no-to-violations-of-ethiopian-muslims-rights-by-the-ethiopian-government-133952943.html

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According to different media outlets and Ethiopian government officials, the government sponsored Lebanese and Syrian nationals who are alien to Ethiopian Muslims' religious cultures and ways of life started the indoctrination of the Muslim populace with the choice of theology of the government's like. Lately, the violation of Ethiopian Muslims' religious rights intensified in most public spheres. Officials who work closely with the government informed the media in Ethiopia about the plan to train (indoctrinate) close to 30,000 imams throughout the country by violating its own constitution as a secular government and forcing students and their parents to sign documents agreeing not to wear the religiously mandated head scarf (Hijab) or perform the religiously mandated prayers even though the official stated policy permits them to do so. As part of this plan of intimidation, the government announced the arrest of over 500 Muslim religious leaders and activist in the town of Assandabo in the Oromia region.


Is there religious tit for tat going on?
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2011, 03:13:36 PM »


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam

Please forgive me for saying this, but you just lost quite a bit of credibility as an Orthodox Christian. Lord have mercy on both of us.
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2011, 03:21:01 PM »

^^ Injustice to one is Injustice to all! I will not be indifferent to or be remotely pleased at a burning of any Church, be it, Evangelical or Roman Catholic. your saying it is evil theoretically does not excuse your malicious sentiment.
 
but there is no suprise in the cheerleading that came from you Gebre, not suprising at all, the manner you have done so, speaks volumes in itself. Grin


It is unchristian and unkind to falsely accuse me in the manner in which you have done here. I realize that you bear a personal grudge against me (a grudge which is by no means mutual), but that doesn't excuse your unfair attack on me. I clearly stated that the burning of any church is disturbing and evil, and that is not mere theory my dear sister. Nothing I said indicates in any way the "cheerleading" of such unfortunate acts. So, if you truly care about justice, then please begin by being fair and just in your comments to your fellow Christian brothers.


Selam

Gebre--Hiwot did not accuse you falsely for the only thing she is guilty of is to have understood your own words in their plainest sense. It seems to me that if anyone is accusing anybody falsely, it is you.
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2011, 03:57:03 PM »

While I disagree with Pentecostals and other Protestants on a number of issues, I don't think anybody deserves violence. People are people.


Amen.

I have been soundly ridiculed on this forum for my consistent promotion of nonviolence, which is why it's so ironic and dishonest for anyone here to accuse me of condoning violence. As happens too often on this forum, some people refuse to read my words and take them at face value. They keep building their straw men and knocking them down, but their little straw men having nothing to do with me.


Selam
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2011, 04:16:37 PM »


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam


Please forgive me for saying this, but you just lost quite a bit of credibility as an Orthodox Christian. Lord have mercy on both of us.


Well, if you support the demonic Pentecostal proselytization occuring in Ethiopia, then you have lost Orthodox credibility in my eyes as well. But I'm not your judge, and you're not mine.

And please note that my words in no way condoned violence against any people of any religion. For me to state that I do not weep over the destruction of a false religious temple in an Orthodox country is a far cry from me advocating violence against human beings. Obviously some people do not want to recognize the clear difference. My God open their eyes, minds -and more importantly -their hearts (and may He do the same with me.)

"Lord have mercy."



Selam
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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2011, 09:39:00 PM »

Calling Pentecostalism demonic is not bigoted and prejudiced, apparently, but calling Islam bad and responsible for Islamic activities is?
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« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2011, 11:35:10 PM »


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam


Please forgive me for saying this, but you just lost quite a bit of credibility as an Orthodox Christian. Lord have mercy on both of us.


Well, if you support the demonic Pentecostal proselytization occuring in Ethiopia, then you have lost Orthodox credibility in my eyes as well. But I'm not your judge, and you're not mine.

And please note that my words in no way condoned violence against any people of any religion. For me to state that I do not weep over the destruction of a false religious temple in an Orthodox country is a far cry from me advocating violence against human beings. Obviously some people do not want to recognize the clear difference. My God open their eyes, minds -and more importantly -their hearts (and may He do the same with me.)

"Lord have mercy."



Selam
What's next for you Gebre--to burn the demoniacs at the stake?
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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2011, 01:54:43 AM »

Calling Pentecostalism demonic is not bigoted and prejudiced, apparently, but calling Islam bad and responsible for Islamic activities is?

Once again, I beg you to read my words carefully. I referred to the specific evangelical efforts of the current Pentecostal movement in Ethiopia which blatantly target Orthodox Tewahedo Christians. In my opinion, this movement is indeed demonic. I also believe that the specific acts of these particular Muslim extremists who burned these churches are also demonic. However, I do not dare presume to condemn all Muslims or all Pentecostals. I think that's the very point brother Habte was trying to make: let us not condemn all people of other faiths than our own with prejudicial ignorance; and by all means, let's us please stop condemning our own Orthodox brethren.




Selam
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« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2011, 01:54:45 AM »


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam


Please forgive me for saying this, but you just lost quite a bit of credibility as an Orthodox Christian. Lord have mercy on both of us.


Well, if you support the demonic Pentecostal proselytization occuring in Ethiopia, then you have lost Orthodox credibility in my eyes as well. But I'm not your judge, and you're not mine.

And please note that my words in no way condoned violence against any people of any religion. For me to state that I do not weep over the destruction of a false religious temple in an Orthodox country is a far cry from me advocating violence against human beings. Obviously some people do not want to recognize the clear difference. My God open their eyes, minds -and more importantly -their hearts (and may He do the same with me.)

"Lord have mercy."



Selam
What's next for you Gebre--to burn the demoniacs at the stake?


A cheap and dishonest attack that demonstrates your complete lack of integrity in this discussion.



Selam
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« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2011, 02:37:14 AM »

Gebre, why should you not weep over an act of violence and hatred - a sin - committed by another human being?  Even if the Pentecostals are demonic, St. Isaac of Syria says that a merciful heart is one on fire even for the demons?
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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2011, 02:49:33 AM »

Gebre, why should you not weep over an act of violence and hatred - a sin - committed by another human being?  Even if the Pentecostals are demonic, St. Isaac of Syria says that a merciful heart is one on fire even for the demons?


I agree with you 100%. And nothing I said indicated anything to the contrary. The problem is that some people read more into my words than is actually there. Their personal animus and prejudicial bias obfuscates their ability to read my statements objectively. As I said earlier, the irony is that I have been roundly condemned on this very forum for my unconditional pacifism. So you should be able to understand why I have no tolerance for these disingenuous efforts to portray me as someone who condones violence and hatred.


Selam
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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2011, 06:05:44 PM »


(As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)


Selam


Please forgive me for saying this, but you just lost quite a bit of credibility as an Orthodox Christian. Lord have mercy on both of us.


Well, if you support the demonic Pentecostal proselytization occuring in Ethiopia, then you have lost Orthodox credibility in my eyes as well. But I'm not your judge, and you're not mine.

And please note that my words in no way condoned violence against any people of any religion. For me to state that I do not weep over the destruction of a false religious temple in an Orthodox country is a far cry from me advocating violence against human beings. Obviously some people do not want to recognize the clear difference. My God open their eyes, minds -and more importantly -their hearts (and may He do the same with me.)

"Lord have mercy."



Selam
What's next for you Gebre--to burn the demoniacs at the stake?


A cheap and dishonest attack that demonstrates your complete lack of integrity in this discussion.



Selam

Nothing cheap or dishonest about it. I am trying to figure what you are saying; I am not you and I am not inside your head. As is normal, I am also processing what you write (as I do with every body else) through my own filters. Here is what I perceive that you have said so far:

You: (As an aside, I was wondering if these churches that were burned were Tewahedo Churches or Protestant Churches. It is disturbing and evil either way, but I personally don't weep over the destruction of a Protestant edifice in Orthodox Ethiopia.)

My understanding: Gebre would not mind the burning down of Protestant Churches. Does this mean that he would be happy with violence against Protestants? He is usually so Christian, so non-violent & pro-life in his other postings; why is he different in this instance?

You: Well, if you support the demonic Pentecostal proselytization occuring in Ethiopia, then you have lost Orthodox credibility in my eyes as well. But I'm not your judge, and you're not mine. And please note that my words in no way condoned violence against any people of any religion. For me to state that I do not weep over the destruction of a false religious temple in an Orthodox country is a far cry from me advocating violence against human beings. Obviously some people do not want to recognize the clear difference. My God open their eyes, minds -and more importantly -their hearts (and may He do the same with me.)

My understanding: Well, he is certainly prickly about being criticized. So, it is not Protestants in general but Pentecostals. And the problem seems to be that they dare to talk to Orthodox Ethiopeans. I need to tie this down; is he against them because they are demonic or because they somehow offend Gebre's idea of what constitutes true Ethiopeanism? Like the Greeks used to feel: Greek=Orthodox=Greek, with his version being Ethiopean=Orthodox Tewahedo Christians=Ethiopean. Yet, he absolutely denies that he is advocating or condoning violence against any people of any religion. Let me see if I can get him to expand on he has said so far.

You: A cheap and dishonest attack that demonstrates your complete lack of integrity in this discussion.

My understanding: I hit jackpot! From his over-the-top reaction, I must have hit a nerve. He is really in favor of using force to ban the Pentecostals from trying to convert Orthodox folks. It seem sto me that he is projecting his own dishonesty and lack of integrity unto me.

Now, do you see how communications work? You cannot expect folks to buy everything that you write. And, when you fight back what you perceive to be unfounded criticism, you really ought to be more measured in doing so. Insulting other folks really does not help your case.
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« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2011, 06:08:13 PM »

Gebre, why should you not weep over an act of violence and hatred - a sin - committed by another human being?  Even if the Pentecostals are demonic, St. Isaac of Syria says that a merciful heart is one on fire even for the demons?


I agree with you 100%. And nothing I said indicated anything to the contrary. The problem is that some people read more into my words than is actually there. Their personal animus and prejudicial bias obfuscates their ability to read my statements objectively. As I said earlier, the irony is that I have been roundly condemned on this very forum for my unconditional pacifism. So you should be able to understand why I have no tolerance for these disingenuous efforts to portray me as someone who condones violence and hatred.


Selam
Gebre, why did you even have to say it in the first place?

I know my post was just overlooked snark, but BOTH the TITLE and the ARTICLE itself made it clear that an Orthodox church was burned down. Obviously you did not pay attention to either before posting so carelessly. That's what gets my goat. This thread has nothing to do with Protestants in Ethiopia and had you read the original post, you would have known that.
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« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2011, 08:22:45 PM »

I have not yet mastered the art of qouting so... Smiley


Habte says =>Life is more complicated than simplistic interpretations as "Christians good, Muslims bad" especially in Ethiopia!!

My Reply =>First of all habte, can you please show me who in this thread has used the words ‘Christians good Muslims bad” except YOU? what you are trying to do is to divert the spotlight from the true face of Islam and make those who point out, the very self evident truth, that act of: intolerance violence, and despicable atrocity that the religion and political ideology of Islam sanctions as HOLY, you want to portray them as racists, bigots as you have been consistently arguing, and make it sound like Christian people are against Muslim people which in reality no one have said, except for within your own mind. the real argument is not focusing on individuals its Islam as geopolitical ideology , against everything that is non Muslim, the victims now happen to be Christians and their way of life. So for the last time, we all know and agree that all Christians are not good and all Muslims are not bad, you perhaps regard yourself as the only one who thinks this way but sorry to disappoint you, or take away from whatever self-righteous pleasure you might have been getting from that perception, but you are preaching to the choir here. Instead what we are trying to point out, and the fact within the Quran with thousand years of Islamic Tradition uphold and teaches IS an enemy to human rights, tolerance and peaceful coexistence period. If you disagree and believe Islam to be a religion of peace and tolerance , peaceful coexistence, respectful of human rights , then please say so and prove your point without calling people racists , bigots etc.. When you have no credible reason to do so.


***Habte you still has not answered my question who in this thread has said “Christians good Muslims bad” other than you yourself? If  as the fact is that no one uttered such words other than you ,why do you insist in putting those particular idiotic  words in people’s mouth? Can you not defend your “Islam is a religion of peace” ideology with something substantial and credible material so therefore you resort into calling people names, when they challenge the political ideology of Islam in its global world view of domination and subjugation of all non Muslim? What is your motive for uttering such a blatant lie of saying that people are arguing along the lines of “Christians good, muslims bad”?  I think it is a reasonable question if you would take the responsibility of answering it for all here you have  called  bigots based on solely your words of “ Christians good muslims bad” . unless of course you can prove to us that Islam is peaceful and tolerant as you claim to not only believe but also teach it to your students, as well as call the rest of us here for bigots for disagreeing with you.


Habte says=> This is a tragedy to be sure, and I pray for my mother Church with all my heart, but that doesn't negate the reason of my mind. In the SNNP state in Ethiopia, the "Christians" from the federal government and militias have been about as dangerous and violent as anyone. In 2005 the federal government was caught by the AU having committed acts of genocide against an extremely small minority ethnic population in a rural area of the SNNP, killing hundreds of people mercilessly (this was considered a genocide because this small ethnic group only numbered around a 1000 and the soldiers who did the killing openly used racial slurs). This kind of violence is not exactly uncommon, and while it’s not always Christians involved, sometimes they are.


*** after your crafty way of linking Christianity with the Federal government and then saying that Christians  have been as violent as anyone, which literally says the Christians FROM the  Federal Government have been as violent as anyone( in this case anyone being the militant islamist who burnt and slaughtered) Of course you did not stop there you went on to link it with the genocide of the government as if it was a religious genocide especially by Christians who are in the position of power in the Federal government,  which you reinforced your statement by the previous sentence about your claim that the Christians from the Federal Government being as violent as “anyone”. Then you make a conclusive extrapolation for us and say so this kind of violence , ( the violence  you have referred to i.e., the Christians being as violent as anyone  in SNNP state which according to you these Christian’s action also have even lead to  the genocide/which is a tragic action of the EPRDF government and not a religious action by anyone as it is factually documented/  so you say the action of these group of Islamists is nothing uncommon) is  not exactly uncommon, while it is not always Christians involved(in this case you referring to the Islamists who burned Churches and massacred people)  sometimes they are( which as your example of the genocide and the Christians from the Federal Government having been as violent as anyone indicates towards the violence of Christians). If this is not saying that Christians have sanctioned killing for religious reasons as these islamists have done, then what is it?


Yet you deny you have linked those as one, when you say =>I never said the Ethiopian regime is a Christian regime, I said there were surely Christians within the regime, do you care to dispute that Ethiopian Christians are not in positions of political power in Ethiopia or not members of the armed services? Hardly a believable sentiment in a country that's political system has been dominated by regional Christian oligarchies for centuries. Further, I never said Christians sanctioned killing, I AM AN ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN, why would I condemn our Mother that way?



*** your last question is mine also, If you are an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian, then Why would you portray as fact by saying violence like these are not uncommon in present day Ethiopia and making it look like that there are Government sanctioned Christians who are killing for “Jesus” as the Islamists have killed and burned for “Allah and His Prophet”? because that IS the violence we are talking about is it not? You mix your timing when it suits you as well, you were talking about the present regime when you linked a Christian violence towards others and not the ancient Christian oligarchy that has been there for centuries, so even why this flip flop? Why indeed?!


***So I was forced to point out the reality of Ethiopian politics and the nature of the dictatorial leadership of EPRDF, plus the nature of the movement towards the Islamisation of Ethiopia, and the Saudi Arabian and other Islamic nations extensive economic support and direct involvement towards the elimination of the Culturally mixed nature of the  Ethiopia’s  indigenous Islam(one  influenced by Ethiopian traditional customs)  and instead replacing it with orthodox Islam by the revival Islamic movement that is deeply nostalgic of the Ahmed Gragn’s days of  slaughter and subjugation of the Non Muslim. Even The Nationalistic loyalty is quickly becoming replaced by the Quranic declaration of the supremacy of the Islamic Land,  this fact that nationalism being incompatible with Islam, as it has been seen practiced in time of Mussolini’s ( who regarded the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as being the vanguard of Ethiopian nationalism and history, he  focused on the killing and persecuting Christians  burning churches and their  historical records while giving  extensive support for Muslims)support of Muslims in Ethiopia and in return gaining their cooperation with his leadership as well as strengthening his diplomatic relations with Islamic nations. Meanwhile the fascists terrorized and persecuted the EOC and her followers, especially the patriotic insurgency. It shows that Islam as a geopolitical ideology is global rather than nationalistic.  At present as part of  the movement  toward the global domination of Islam, I have added a few statistical indicators of the increasingly islimization of Ethiopia, and the obvious link with the Saudi’s and other Islamic nations. This has nothing to do with Ethiopian muslims building their mosques, as it is their right to do so. however as old mosques of the indigenous Islam are being torn down and burnt by the reformists, those reformists are also building numerous mosques and madrassas that advocate the Wahabbi Islam via the funding they receive from Islamic nations. This is about the increasingly aggressive influence of Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Egypt, etc.. whose ardent interest circulates around the total islamization of Ethiopia and the eradication of  the type of mixed nature of the local Islam  that has a sufist practice ,that also through centuries of Christian leadership   has culturally Christianized version of indigenous Islam,  expressed uniquely in the Northern Province of  “wello”. However it is according to the revivalists not true ISLAM( one would argue by looking at the indigenous practices of the yearly celebration of memorial services for the long departed, mediation of judicial nature by a man whose job it is to reconcile  and judge among people by invoking the name of Allah only without the use of the sharia law, the ease of conversion to and from Christianity and back again to Islam, the helping of each community in the building of  churches together as well as mosques together, going to priests for exorcisms , building shrines for Christian Saints and asking for their spiritual aid, etc. practices that are neither in the Quran nor in the Hadith, that  one can see that there is a  unique environment that has clearly departed from strict fellowship of the Quran and the Hadith as well as other Islamic Traditions and adopted its own form of spirituality ) and  by calling those who practice it as “Non muslims” this sentiment of rejecting the indigenous Islam as being unorthodox, has also been endorsed by the Supreme Islamic Affairs Council in Addis Ababa. As the highest body of Ethiopian Muslims the SIAC ( who even though it does not follow the reformists version of Islam )  has essentially called them ignorant of the true Islamic faith, and practitioners of cultural and non Islamic elements, therefore are not really Muslims. One might then understand and correctly conclude that the relatively peaceful character that Islam in the province of wallo has adopted is not related to its core ideology but rather the result of its being uniquely indigenous and its integration with preexisting culture which upholds economic political and social inclusiveness along with its long exposure to Christianity’s influence in the region. With changing social political and economic environment, what has been portrayed as watered down Islam is being recast into its true form which is a geopolitical ideology whose philosophy is Totalitarianism in all dimensions of human life. As some people in Ethiopia have already said, with the fall of the Derg regime in Ethiopia,” out goes Communism, and in comes Islamism.” As I have presented in the statistical data, the number of Muslims per mosque, and madrassas  in a single district is incredulous. the Saudis being the major financers of such endeavors as well as for the theology being taught through them. Mean while  in Saudi Arabia, let alone build a single church in the entire country , if a Christian is dead, will never be buried in the land instead, the body of the person will either be sent back to his/her original country or thrown into the ocean.

=>you claim that: Ethiopia has always  maintained good relationships not just with her domestic Muslims, but the Muslim world in general. During the Crusades, Ethiopian Christians always maintained relatively free-access to the Holy Lands because the Muslims there trusted and favored the Ethiopians and even today, one of Ethiopia's largest trading partners isn't the United States, it isn't Israel, it isn't the EU, its Saudi Arabia!!! Clearly then the "beef" between Ethiopians and Muslims has been exaggerated by a political minority with a nefarious agenda, because both history and contemporary circumstances simply do not warrant such speculations.”

*** Wait here is another display of your lack of knowledge of Ethiopian history and the distortion of what little you know to suit your purpose, honestly speaking I am flabbergasted by the outrageous claim of Ethiopia having ALWAYS maintained good relationships not just with her domestic Muslims but the Muslim world in general. After the Axumite Hijira, where Ethiopia came in contact with Islam, that lead to her being declared by Mohammed as a ‘Dar- al- hiyat/ Neutral land”  that protected her during the period of Pan-Arabism, that semblance of peace would soon change when Islam infiltrated via the trade routes and created small sultanates that later became a threat to the Christian Empires. Thus came, the internal external wars where the Ethiopian kingdom more than once lost its kings lives for has been a war with Muslim lead sieges both from within and from the  neighbors  as well as Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia who used the opportunity to make Ethiopia dar-al-Islam/ the Land of Islam . The famous Ethiopian saying describing the politically hyper vigilant  state  existence by the Christian Empire of Ethiopia  against the ever present threat of the Muslim neighbors invasion of Ethiopia is summed up by the term that Ethiopia is “dar darua isat, mehalua genet yehonech hager” / A country surrounded by fire yet holds paradise within her/ all this is said to express the conflict with surrounding Muslim nations. This will later on in History of Christian Empire of Ethiopia, will reach its zenith by the  brutal jihad led by Ahmed Gragn, mostly leaving in the collective Christian memory what is referred to as “Gragn-trauma”. As to the time of the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem in 634-44 Khalif Omar, has been said to allow Ethiopians to remain in Jerusalem as well as recognizing the rights of other Christian communities to make pilgrimage in the Christian holy places of Jerusalem, this was not a unique privilege of Ethiopians alone, and during the Saladin’s taking of Jerusalem from the crusaders in 1187 he restored the presence of the Ethiopian monks, however during the reign of Lalibela (1190-1225) had trouble maintaining unhampered contacts with the monks in Jerusalem, he decided to build a new Jerusalem in his land. This shows that the reason why the Rock-hewn Churches of Lalibela were built was precisely because the pilgrims were having a hard time to go to Jerusalem safely. The ottomans  also controlled Egypt and much of the Red Sea passageway  blocked thus this circumscribed Ethiopia’s communication with the outside world including Jerusalem. Over the course of Ethiopia’s long history, there were some positive political relations with Islamic nations however not enduring ones. Some interactions were good, some were terrible there was even intermarriage among the royalties by the conversion of the Muslim into Christianity. Even so one has to look at historical chronicles and see the colorful story of Christian Kings and their not so peaceful interactions with Muslims and in some cases dying while in battle against muslims, I will provide some of their names so those interested can look their histories  up, Kings like Emperor Amda Seyon I, Newaya Krestos, Dawit I, Tewodros I, Yeshaq I,Zara yaqob, Eskender, Na’od, Dawit II, Gelawdewos, Menas, Yohannes IV, Minilik II.

The books of Ethiopian history are filled with such conquests and conflicts. As far as the present day trading partner of Ethiopia being Saudi Arabia, we have already established, the consistency of the centuries old plan of radical  Islamisation of Ethiopia by Islamic Nations the leading of which is Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are working extensively towards that goal, using overt and covert means. The Islamic NGOs of these countries have come to Ethiopia for this one obvious purpose. Much has been said about this issue already. The beef between Ethiopians and neighboring Muslim countries is far from an exaggerated  report, history is a witness to this. You who are a teacher of history, who specialized in Ethiopian history , graduated with honors, who brags on that he has what 30% of Ethiopian professors do not have, yet you do not know these things that the Great Ethiopian Journalist and Historian The Beloved Gashe Paulos GnoGno, who was only a 4th grade dropout, knew and documented extensively about. It is a wonder and a tragedy.


Habte says =>I am also glad you are familiar with the genocide in Gambela, I never tried to insinuate that it was a Christian genocide against folks, rather that many folks from the SNNP perceived it as such, I only brought it up to point out the complicated and divisive sociopolitical conditions in the SNNP where this particular Church was burnt, so folks on the forum could see this incident in its proper context.

*** again the genocide in Gambela is not perceived as a Christian genocide against the  Anuaks, since the majority of the Anuaks themselves are Christians. The genocide was perpetrated by EPRDF. The Anuaks being outspoken opposers of the Ethnic Federalisim of EPRDF, this among other reasons had made them a prime target of the government’s brutality. The awassa killing SNNP also was not perceived as a Christian vs. Muslim, it was the government’s massacre of hundreds peaceful demonstrators. The same with the massacre of Ethiopians after the 2005 election in Addis Ababa. The list goes on, for the crime of the government on the Citizens is extensive. The present day Islamic reformation and its brutal aggression  is a clearly a danger both to the human rights , and civil rights of those that do not follow its religious and political vision within the Ethiopian Muslim community as well as  the Christians and other non Muslims.

Habte says => After all, Ethiopians in Addis still have security guards and housekeepers as a residual effect of slavery, which only ended, when in Ethiopia, oh right, 1931!!

*** I found this historical/ anthropological analysis really funny! Does this analysis also applies to those household worker employers all over the world who would employ maids and security guards to protect them and also work in the household chore or guardners to tend thier gardens while they go out to work in the cities or simply because they can afford to employ the help? If so then all the corporations that employ janitors, maids, security guards , drivers etc are all suffering the residual effect of slavery ? or could it be that those city dwelling Ethiopians as well as those in the country side who could afford to heir help with what needs to be done at home, or farm, have resorted to employment of a skilled labor in the area they want help with, for an agreed upon price and working conditions, simply because its economically and time wise an effective as well as efficient move to do so? Does it offend your sensibility that poor Ethiopians have maids and security guards employed in their house? or has the definition of slavery changed as we know it?


You see No one has denied that the muslims of Ethiopia are Ethiopians least of all me, denying them will be denying myself. The Ethiopia I envision and pray about is one that will be a just and fair country for all her citizens. I pray to see Ethiopia become a democratic country with all the proper checks and balances of government in place, where the rule of a just law is supreme where the right of the minority is protected. This is why I do not support a monarchy in the present and future of Ethiopia as the monarchy represents a select group of people with a single religion, while Ethiopia is home to diverse ethnicities, language, and religion. Ethiopia must be home for all Ethiopians. You argue in terms of muslims vs. Christians, then from that you make a conclusion about the ideology, while the entire argument has been the nature of the Political and religious ideology of Islam vs. the Non-Muslim, as well as what it means to those muslims that are under such political hegemony in terms of their human and civil rights. [/b] Whethere there is christianity or not , whether there is budhisim or not what we are looking at is the impact of  the Islamic world view,or ideology on human rights, peace and tolerance, peaceful coexistance with others, the respect of the equal civill rights of those under its law.


For the last time, An Ideology is the one that is being questioned, challenged here, not individual good or bad people. Islam controls the political and religious arena, this means it must be discussed what it means for those under it and others as a political ideology. We can condemn it as we have analyzed and condemned all forms of totalitarianisms that have no room for peaceful coexistence with others, we must first then acknowledge that there is a problem before we can deliberate on how it can be fixed. Currently there are those who are blatantly denying that there is a problem in the ideology itself. This ideology is not hiding itself, it is in fact open for all to see, but as it is true for most human history, a lot of atrocities and human right violations are faced with denial initially before they are acknowledged for what they are because they ended up knocking everyone’s doors.

***I found your “apology” interesting as it continues to call people bigots accuse them of prejudice,  by putting words they have not said in their mouths mainly making the questioning of ideology as an attack against the individual people  against ALL muslims, and their Ethiopian citizenship, while you present yourself as a man of benevolent deeds towards Ethiopia, and Ethiopians as well as a man who  could talk to prejudice people like those in here and especially me, who like those muslims who burnt the Church hold a contrary idea. Isn’t it brilliant of you to present my idea as contrary as the ideas of those muslims who by the way you want to portray as not following the principles of Islamic ideology which you insist is a peaceful and tolerant one , therefore successfully portraying me and them in the same context. I have to applaud such skill, as I have admired your giving credit to yourself as having invested too seriously and scholarly as one working on a history paper when you were discussing the issue, which by the way you kept on twisting, into Muslims vs. Christians. Even though we kept telling you that it is not. Bottom line is before we can talk about the solutions we must talk about  and understand the real essence of the problem.


To conclude, I do not enjoy these dragged out bickering, however, as one man I deeply respect have said ‘cursed be the man who taught me to write, for he gave me a burden!’ so if you my brother would refrain from applying the name Ethiopia while accusing people  of bigotry , prejudice, racism, etc.. And the use of Tewahedo when you are chanting Jah Rastafari I, I will put an effort to stay out of whatever else you might have to say. But the moment those words are used or missused; know that they will summon me.

@ Filipinopilgrim +++ Here is the truth about what happened in the town of Assandabo in the oromia region.
http://m.christianpost.com/news/court-imprisons-more-than-500-muslim-extremists-for-mass-church-burnings-51409/

Now I have added some video clips for those who managed to read this far about the main topic in here, the truth about Islam. Perhaps we need to hear the voices of those who speak for the voiceless...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q24sPWwoy3s    the truth about Islam told by a former Sudanese slave.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idqJ1hn76Ek   Slave trade and Islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNfC8Uduj0c&feature=related  Brigitte Gabriel: a Survivor of Islamic Terror.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHikftWvobA  Islam- what the west needs to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrueU4xd2w&feature=related   using democracy to kill democracy!

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkPJTRb9QSI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL    the  complete infidel’s Guide to the Koran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ur75Cg9Qg&feature=related Islam and Terrorism- the Truth about Muhammad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BLo0UtwtJc&NR=1&feature=endscreen  Stealth Jihad

Ok I had a long day today, and the weekend  has been the busiest for me, so I am tired, and sleepy  however, this issue being the way it is, I decided to jot something before I call it a night. 

pray for me a sinner!


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To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
akimori makoto
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« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2011, 08:30:39 PM »

Do you have to use Quel' Serrar to kill it?

Anyone who understands this reference is sad and pathetic -- as am I!
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
HabteSelassie
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« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2011, 08:40:58 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Sis Hiwot, I thought we squashed all this?  I already told you, I refuse to get into any specific arguments with your posts any long, because you will not be able to convince me to adhere to your interpretations of Ethiopian history and geopolitics, and neither will I persuade you towards mine, so we should agree to disagree.  If you insist on making points then, please in the future try not to do them specifically against me by name, as I will not follow your lead.  You have the freedom to express any of your opinions, and if they are historically inaccurate, prejudiced, or simply mistaken, the Truth of reality will speak for itself, and those who have Eyes to See will See, likewise if such flaws are found in my own posts the same will occur, however you and I personally seem to have diametrically opposed viewpoints, so shouldn't we cut this drama out?



That being said, I appreciate you adding pages of substance to this discussion, however I will not address each of your points directly, rather I will just let the readers think for themselves in all regards.

By the way, I have never accused any individual or poster here of being racist, bigoted, or prejudiced, rather I have attacked many racist, bigoted, and prejudiced ideas, opinions, and comments expressed on the forum. These individuals who express them may not inherently be racist or prejudiced, but clearly they express prejudiced ideas which I will continue to criticize, however I will in the future be most careful not to name names since folks can't hear it.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2011, 11:49:41 PM »

Do you have to use Quel' Serrar to kill it?

Anyone who understands this reference is sad and pathetic -- as am I!

I've never actually played the game; my roommate did, however.
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