The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!

[J Michael]

Whoa!  Nine_Two is now also suspended?


Crazy.

Meh, I stopped following threads on CAF. All interesting posters are either banned or laying low. Only silly people who create threads like "I went to my first Byzantine Mass" are left.

Why do you consider them "silly"?

The names of those threads pretty much gives it away. And besides, they usually don't have enough knowledge to participate in interesting debates. Those debates were the main reason why I kept reading CAF.

True.  Now it is just a round of, "It's not Mass, its Divine Liturgy."  "Yes, you are Catholic you can receive Communion."  "Follow what everyone else does."  "You can cross yourself any which way you like."  Etc.

Okay, whatever...I rarely go there and even more rarely follow any of the threads.

[Peter J]

Whoa!  Nine_Two is now also suspended?


Crazy.

Meh, I stopped following threads on CAF. All interesting posters are either banned or laying low. Only silly people who create threads like "I went to my first Byzantine Mass" are left.

Why do you consider them "silly"?

The names of those threads pretty much gives it away. And besides, they usually don't have enough knowledge to participate in interesting debates. Those debates were the main reason why I kept reading CAF.

True.  Now it is just a round of, "It's not Mass, its Divine Liturgy." 
...

One thing I've learned is that there isn't enough time in life to correct all the mistakes people make. Personally, I think "My Church is a Church, not a Rite" is a higher priority than "It's not Mass, its Divine Liturgy." 

[Cyrillic]

Yes. I noticed that it has become your mission to correct that mistake 

[choy]

Of course its nice to help people curious about Eastern Catholicism (which I highly regard as the "gateway faith" to Orthodoxy ) but its nice if there's some deeper theological discussions ongoing.  And with all the regulars gone, it will be just the "newbies".

[Peter J]

Of course its nice to help people curious about Eastern Catholicism (which I highly regard as the "gateway faith" to Orthodoxy ) but its nice if there's some deeper theological discussions ongoing.  And with all the regulars gone, it will be just the "newbies".

But I never inhaled.

[Peter J]

Yes. I noticed that it has become your mission to correct that mistake 

Actually, I think I'm just behind-the-times. A few years ago it was a pretty widespread struggle between people who say "22 Eastern Catholic Rites" and people who correct people who say "22 Eastern Catholic Rites".

[choy]

One thing I've learned is that there isn't enough time in life to correct all the mistakes people make. Personally, I think "My Church is a Church, not a Rite" is a higher priority than "It's not Mass, its Divine Liturgy." 

Well, it is a Rite

[JoeS2]

You're right about the RCs telling the ECs, they should believe everything the Romans teach.  I have even talked to some RCs (i.e. PJM) who cannot honestly understand why Eastern theology is so contradictory to what Rome teaches and yet they are still in "communion" with the Latin church.

Its like forcing two opposing magnets together.  You can do it but with much difficulty...

[choy]

Dear CAF,

This is what your Pope thinks what a non-Catholic forum should look like:



The Orthodox gets to sit at his right hand. 

[Cyrillic]

The Orthodox gets to sit at his right hand. 

"Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

 

[J Michael]

nvm

[Cyrillic]

EDIT: Argh, you're fast.

[J Michael]

EDIT: Argh, you're fast.

Yeah...I just didn't think that engaging in a Urinary Olympics during Great Lent was the most appropriate course of action. 

[JoeS2]

Quite frankly, I don't know why we even bother....

[J Michael]

Quite frankly, I don't know why we even bother....

The same thought has crossed my mind more than once.

[JoeS2]

Quite frankly, I don't know why we even bother....

The same thought has crossed my mind more than once.

Finally, something we can agree on.....

[J Michael]

Quite frankly, I don't know why we even bother....

The same thought has crossed my mind more than once.

Finally, something we can agree on.....

A Lenten miracle!!

(Hey, there's always something we can find to agree on, just that on this forum it proves somewhat challenging  .)

[Cyrillic]

I just visited CAF and there was a debate on the filioque (those are fun  ) and someone quoted the filioque in the Athanasian creed and asked whether the Orthodox call St. Athanasius a lier. I wanted to smash my head through the computer screen.

To be fair through, an Orthodox Christian responded by saying that St. Athanasius was not infallible. I'm not going back again to CAF. I think I prefer the maps to remarks as intelligent as these.

[jmbejdl]

I just visited CAF and there was a debate on the filioque (those are fun  ) and someone quoted the filioque in the Athanasian creed and asked whether the Orthodox call St. Athanasius a lier. I wanted to smash my head through the computer screen.

To be fair through, an Orthodox Christian responded by saying that St. Athanasius was not infallible. I'm not going back again to CAF. I think I prefer the maps to remarks as intelligent as these.

I've never been on CAF, mainly because my closest connection to Roman Catholicism is via my grandmother so I never really felt like it was 'my place'. A couple of time Catholic acquaintances here and elsewhere have suggested I go and see (years ago it has to be said) - looking at this thread, it seems I did the wise thing in declining.

James

[Cyrillic]

By the way, the only one who gave the correct answer to the rhetorical question of the Latin was our very own dzheremi. He was the only one who was able to point out that the Athanasian Creed is a forgery. Dzheremi saved my head and my computer screen 

[Peter J]

I just visited CAF and there was a debate on the filioque (those are fun  ) and someone quoted the filioque in the Athanasian creed

Actually, it says that Spirit is "of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding" ("Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.")

Or at least, that's how I first learned it, and Wikipedia agrees.

[Cyrillic]

I meant the doctrine, not the actual wording. I knew that it used et filio (Really!  )

[dzheremi]

By the way, the only one who gave the correct answer to the rhetorical question of the Latin was our very own dzheremi. He was the only one who was able to point out that the Athanasian Creed is a forgery. Dzheremi saved my head and my computer screen 

It's funny...I thought that was common knowledge, but maybe it isn't on internet forums. I remember when they taught us the "Athanasian" Creed when I was RC, they said it was attributed to him by medieval RC tradition (pretty much what I said in the post). There's nothing at all to indicate that it is related to him outside of that.

[Apotheoun]

By the way, the only one who gave the correct answer to the rhetorical question of the Latin was our very own dzheremi. He was the only one who was able to point out that the Athanasian Creed is a forgery. Dzheremi saved my head and my computer screen 

It's funny...I thought that was common knowledge, but maybe it isn't on internet forums. I remember when they taught us the "Athanasian" Creed when I was RC, they said it was attributed to him by medieval RC tradition (pretty much what I said in the post). There's nothing at all to indicate that it is related to him outside of that.

The things I have read about the "Athanasian Creed" indicate that it was written in southern France sometime in the late fifth or early sixth century, a hundred or more years after the time of St. Athanasios.

[Cyrillic]

By the way, the only one who gave the correct answer to the rhetorical question of the Latin was our very own dzheremi. He was the only one who was able to point out that the Athanasian Creed is a forgery. Dzheremi saved my head and my computer screen 

It's funny...I thought that was common knowledge, but maybe it isn't on internet forums. I remember when they taught us the "Athanasian" Creed when I was RC, they said it was attributed to him by medieval RC tradition (pretty much what I said in the post). There's nothing at all to indicate that it is related to him outside of that.

The things I have read about the "Athanasian Creed" indicate that it was written in southern France sometime in the late fifth or early sixth century, a hundred or more years after the time of St. Athanasios.

I've read that it was written in Vandal-occupied North-Africa. In either case the document wasn't written by St. Athanasius.

[Romaios]

Most Greek Horologia still include the (pseudo-)Athanasian Creed, of course without the Filioque. I think this goes back to the time when Greeks had their books printed in Venice. A footnote in a Horologion printed there in 1856 explains:

Semeiosai, hoti to anothen Symbolon tou Megalou Athanasiou, synkrithen tois archaiotatois cheirographois tois sozomenois en te tou hagiou Markou Bibliotheke, kai symphonon heurethen gnesion te kai homophonoun te gnome tes Orthodoxou Ekklesias, edoxe touto typothenai. Ta gar typothenta en Parisiois kai allothi diapherousi kata te ten phrasin kai ten ennoian. Touto de, aparallakton kai tou en Moschodia typothentos, eusebei gnome entautha prosetethe.

"We mention that the Symbol of the Great Athanasios printed above was compared to the oldest manuscripts kept in the Library of St. Mark and, since it was found according, authentic and in agreement with the mind of the Orthodox Church, it was judged fit to be printed. The versions printed in Paris and in other places are discordant both in their phrasing and in their intention (with the Orthodox faith), but this one, just like the one printed in Moscow, was added here in good faith." 

[Peter J]

Most Greek Horologia still include the (pseudo-)Athanasian Creed, of course without the Filioque.

The Athanasian Creed says that Spirit is "of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding". It doesn't say "the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son".

[Romaios]

Most Greek Horologia still include the (pseudo-)Athanasian Creed, of course without the Filioque.

The Athanasian Creed says that Spirit is "of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding". It doesn't say "the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son".

Well, the Greek version I was referring to goes like this:

Τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἀπὸ τοῦ Πατρός, οὐ πεποιημένον οὔτε δεδημιουργημένον οὔτε γεγεννημένον, ἀλλ'ἐκπορευτόν.

"The Holy Spirit [is] from the Father - neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding".

The Latin original has:

Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.

* et Filio = Filioque.

[Asteriktos]

I've been receiving CAF emails asking for money. Could someone please give them the $11,000 (!) they are asking for?

[Peter J]

I've been receiving CAF emails asking for money. Could someone please give them the $11,000 (!) they are asking for?

I think I speak for everyone hear when I say

no Eastern Christianity Forum = no donations

(Well, maybe not everyone here. But most.)

[stanley123]

Most Greek Horologia still include the (pseudo-)Athanasian Creed, of course without the Filioque.

The Athanasian Creed says that Spirit is "of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding". It doesn't say "the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son".

Well, the Greek version I was referring to goes like this:

Τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον ἀπὸ τοῦ Πατρός, οὐ πεποιημένον οὔτε δεδημιουργημένον οὔτε γεγεννημένον, ἀλλ'ἐκπορευτόν.

"The Holy Spirit [is] from the Father - neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding".

The Latin original has:

Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.

* et Filio = Filioque.

The claim is that the filioque was a later addition to the original Athanasian creed, which did not have it.

[Cyrillic]

no Eastern Christianity Forum = no donations

Most of us would be banned by the end of the week anyway. They don't take kindly to debate over there. Strange for an apologetics forum.

[theistgal]

no Eastern Christianity Forum = no donations

Most of us would be banned by the end of the week anyway. They don't take kindly to debate over there. Strange for an apologetics forum.

Yet there are still a few of us who manage to hang on over there ... AND here ... both boards have their pros & cons. 

[JoeS2]

I've been receiving CAF emails asking for money. Could someone please give them the $11,000 (!) they are asking for?

Oh, by all means, allow me to check my pockets....................Nope not a cent......Then again Im one of the "Banned for Lifers"...

[ialmisry]

I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ...  

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."  

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil

Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.

What's the problem? From your church's position, they were just moving to the other lung.

In Christ,
Andrew

The other lung is the collection of eastern traditions and theology, not the Eastern Orthodox Church, which we still view as being in schism from the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The fact that the Catholic Church views it in this way, can be seen from the magisterium's response to the Zohby initiative.

If this is totally true, why are Orthodox Christians allowed to commune in RC churches?

Good questions. Probably because your faith is close enough to ours, and that you have a partial unity with Catholics, in that you have valid sacrments. This does not mean we think you are the Church, but we do think that elements of the Church exist in Eastern Orthodoxy. Evidence that we don't view your Church as part of "the Church" is found in the fact that we will not concelebrate liturgy with the Eastern Orthodox.

Au contraire.  When the Metropolitan in Transylvania did so, he was almost deposed: the Holy Synod let him off with a severe warning, to him and others.  I don't recall the Vatican saying a thing.

[ialmisry]

no Eastern Christianity Forum = no donations

Most of us would be banned by the end of the week anyway. They don't take kindly to debate over there. Strange for an apologetics forum.

well, they are sorry.

[theistgal]

Since the thread is still going, thought you might be somewhat amused to know that a certain Eastern Catholic monk who posts there regularly was suddenly banned for several hours in the EC subforum. He asked about it and was told by the moderator that it was an accident, and he's since been reinstated.

But the *really* interesting part is that I asked him about this on Facebook (where he's a friend) and he later told me he had received a PM from an administrator scolding him about our conversation there! 

[Cyrillic]

But the *really* interesting part is that I asked him about this on Facebook (where he's a friend) and he later told me he had received a PM from an administrator scolding him about our conversation there! 

I'd love to read what he had to say about us.

[ialmisry]

Since the thread is still going, thought you might be somewhat amused to know that a certain Eastern Catholic monk who posts there regularly was suddenly banned for several hours in the EC subforum. He asked about it and was told by the moderator that it was an accident, and he's since been reinstated.

But the *really* interesting part is that I asked him about this on Facebook (where he's a friend) and he later told me he had received a PM from an administrator scolding him about our conversation there! 

[Papist]

I've been receiving CAF emails asking for money. Could someone please give them the $11,000 (!) they are asking for?

Oh, by all means, allow me to check my pockets....................Nope not a cent......Then again Im one of the "Banned for Lifers"...

Me too! but it was my own fault. In my youthful stupidity, I cursed at one of moderators through PM. Sigh. That was years ago, but still

[theistgal]

But the *really* interesting part is that I asked him about this on Facebook (where he's a friend) and he later told me he had received a PM from an administrator scolding him about our conversation there! 

I'd love to read what he had to say about us.

Well, I'm just waiting for her (not him, hint hint!) to contact me about my comments here. 

[JoeS2]

But the *really* interesting part is that I asked him about this on Facebook (where he's a friend) and he later told me he had received a PM from an administrator scolding him about our conversation there! 

I'd love to read what he had to say about us.

Sounds like things haven't changed any over there.......

[Peter J]

Sounds like things haven't changed any over there.......

Not trying to white-wash catholic.com, but it ought to be said that each side does have it's own quirks.

For example, I often get the impression that the Orthodox are a bit shocked whenever Catholics actually believe what the Vatican says we have to believe. (And I don't tell me it's my overactive imagination ... Nah, I'm just kidding you can tell me.)

[JoeS2]

Sounds like things haven't changed any over there.......

Not trying to white-wash catholic.com, but it ought to be said that each side does have it's own quirks.

For example, I often get the impression that the Orthodox are a bit shocked whenever Catholics actually believe what the Vatican says we have to believe. (And I don't tell me it's my overactive imagination ... Nah, I'm just kidding you can tell me.)

In actuality, Im shocked when they DONT believe in what the Vatican says they have to do believe...

[ialmisry]

Sounds like things haven't changed any over there.......

Not trying to white-wash catholic.com, but it ought to be said that each side does have it's own quirks.

For example, I often get the impression that the Orthodox are a bit shocked whenever Catholics actually believe what the Vatican says we have to believe. (And I don't tell me it's my overactive imagination ... Nah, I'm just kidding you can tell me.)

In actuality, Im shocked when they DONT believe in what the Vatican says they have to do believe...

I'm more shocked that the Vatican not only says it, but says it's infallible.

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