Topic: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!

[podkarpatska]

I nearly ended myself when I read the 2 posts made there , whilst eating my breakfast .

All I know is that I'm not learned enough to be able to sound like an encyclopedia robot.

oh well - I'm devastated

Wow! It's so great to hear from you!  Thank you for attending Father Serge's funeral, he will be missed.  You attending the funeral was a great act of Christian charity, being there in spirit for all of us who couldn't be there in person, you represented us by going.  I imagine the journey was not an easy undertaking from Scotland to Ireland, boat trip, train or bus and back.  It is good to hear from you, please post here more often.

Irish Melkite, you were a great mod over there.  I always strove to tell the truth and in the end I got banned for something trivial.  I lasted longer than most.  Luckily we aren't so heavy handed here.  As a matter of fact the Greek Catholic posters that frequent here often add good conversation.  They gently stick up for their beliefs and for that respect is given.  At other forums, not oc.net, they push this orthodox in union with rome attitude and a host of other ill-favoured ideals.  As a former Greek Catholic I can personally tell you that in the real world Greek Catholics go to church, pray and go home.  The major consensus is not like what you would find in the EC section of another forum.  
For most Greek Catholics going to church is going to church.  They know who they are, our families fought hard when some what for Orthodoxy. The actual truth on the ground and not on the internet is that often Greek Catholics (Ruthenians for the sake of typing are Greek CAtholics too, not Byzantine Catholics) feel like second class citizens to the Latin Rite Catholics.  
Most of the lunatics are Roman Catholics who hate the Roman Catholic liturgy but like the Pope but like the Byzantine liturgies.  
They are the ones that over-justify their existence.  They are the ones that try to creep in pre-vatican 2 practices into the Greek CAtholic liturgies and services.  They are the ones on the internet making normal Greek Catholic church going folk look crazy.  They didn't come from families who in former times were forced by law to be Greek Catholic, it isn't part of their family history.  I have never met a cradle Greek Catholic that boasts that they are the true model of unity and being under the pope ended the schism.  For the most part the Greek Catholics online that I deal with are Roman Catholics with a complex.  The exceptions are Anhela, Neil, Deacon Lance, even Elijahmaria.  They know what they believe, they stick up for it and they don't get all offensive against the Orthodox.  They know that if you live outside of the NE,Mid Atlantic and say Chicago that most Orthodox have never met a Greek Catholic and understand that these Orthodox don't know about them and say things that aren't nice because they don't understand, like Jesus said on the coross, "Father forgive them for they do not know"
Truth be told the average Greek Catholic parish has many pros that an Orthodox parish doesn't have.  My parish and the Greek Catholic parish up the road have almost the same services.  Antiphons are different.  The former priest taught Orthodoxy straight up.  Being under the pope was an afterthought.  The people have been Greek Catholic for 400 years.  their connection to rome is merely praying for the pope in litanies.  This is how it is, and they have latinizations, sure.  But they were Orthodox at one point and forced into Rome.  They never concerned themselves with the Vatican too much.  They don't have parish councils that override the priest.  They don't have converts that shun their ethnic traditions, the very traditions that connect home life with the Faith ( ok, to a point they have Roman Catholics that get like this a bit).  
And I'm not going to knock them, yes they are in union with the pope.  It isn't their fault.  Most people don't even think about it, they just go to church.  And frankly they look at the Orthodox church that broke away from their church and think, man, I don't want to go through that parish council in fighting.  The priests are paid a decent salary and receive medical insurance.  You can't say that about every Orthodox parish and priest.
Now I would never go back to being Greek Catholic.  I am under the Patriarch of Constantinople.  I believe Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith.  It is worth it and everything I go through to be Orthodox.  But I will never condemn someone for being Greek Catholic or staying Greek Catholic.  
Remember where I live, people will go back and forth between Greek CAtholicism and Orthodoxy.  Often marriages are interfaith and if the greek catholic priest makes them mad they'll go to the orthodox church until they decide to park it at the greek catholic church.  Is that right? No.  Am I God and the judge of mankind? No.  Like I said, the former Greek Catholic priest at my family's "Greek Catholic parish which was my parish until I joined my family's Orthodox Church was the kindest man ever.  He was as Orthodox as anyone, even though he was under the pope.  I miss him, he taught the faith, he cared, he was there for his people, he suffered greatly with his diabetes and never complained.  He was truly the father of his flock.  
This stuff never gets talked about online.  It always gets into some us versus them fight.  I am not advocating inter-communion but I am saying that we have learned to love one another and work together.  And Christ said, love one another and forgive, work together, strive for peace and goodwill towards mankind.

You echo my understanding based on my life's experiences and my sentiments. In the old days, the old timers thought of their religion not in terms of being Catholic or as not being Orthodox but merely as following 'our faith' - pardon my Rusyn but i think it is 'nas virjy'. When the schism began, some were passionate, but many simply wanted no trouble and to stay in the church which their labor built - regardless of who owned it - 'our church' or 'nas cerkov'. Today we have been catechised as either Greek Catholics or as Orthodox for seventy five years and the Greek Catholics know they are Greek Catholics and the Orthodox know they are Orthodox. As my baba would say, 'it is what it is.'

[Maria]

I nearly ended myself when I read the 2 posts made there , whilst eating my breakfast .

All I know is that I'm not learned enough to be able to sound like an encyclopedia robot.

oh well - I'm devastated

Wow! It's so great to hear from you!  Thank you for attending Father Serge's funeral, he will be missed.  You attending the funeral was a great act of Christian charity, being there in spirit for all of us who couldn't be there in person, you represented us by going.  I imagine the journey was not an easy undertaking from Scotland to Ireland, boat trip, train or bus and back.  It is good to hear from you, please post here more often.

Irish Melkite, you were a great mod over there.  I always strove to tell the truth and in the end I got banned for something trivial.  I lasted longer than most.  Luckily we aren't so heavy handed here.  As a matter of fact the Greek Catholic posters that frequent here often add good conversation.  They gently stick up for their beliefs and for that respect is given.  At other forums, not oc.net, they push this orthodox in union with rome attitude and a host of other ill-favoured ideals.  As a former Greek Catholic I can personally tell you that in the real world Greek Catholics go to church, pray and go home.  The major consensus is not like what you would find in the EC section of another forum.  
For most Greek Catholics going to church is going to church.  They know who they are, our families fought hard when some what for Orthodoxy. The actual truth on the ground and not on the internet is that often Greek Catholics (Ruthenians for the sake of typing are Greek CAtholics too, not Byzantine Catholics) feel like second class citizens to the Latin Rite Catholics.  
Most of the lunatics are Roman Catholics who hate the Roman Catholic liturgy but like the Pope but like the Byzantine liturgies.  
They are the ones that over-justify their existence.  They are the ones that try to creep in pre-vatican 2 practices into the Greek CAtholic liturgies and services.  They are the ones on the internet making normal Greek Catholic church going folk look crazy.  They didn't come from families who in former times were forced by law to be Greek Catholic, it isn't part of their family history.  I have never met a cradle Greek Catholic that boasts that they are the true model of unity and being under the pope ended the schism.  For the most part the Greek Catholics online that I deal with are Roman Catholics with a complex.  The exceptions are Anhela, Neil, Deacon Lance, even Elijahmaria.  They know what they believe, they stick up for it and they don't get all offensive against the Orthodox.  They know that if you live outside of the NE,Mid Atlantic and say Chicago that most Orthodox have never met a Greek Catholic and understand that these Orthodox don't know about them and say things that aren't nice because they don't understand, like Jesus said on the coross, "Father forgive them for they do not know"
Truth be told the average Greek Catholic parish has many pros that an Orthodox parish doesn't have.  My parish and the Greek Catholic parish up the road have almost the same services.  Antiphons are different.  The former priest taught Orthodoxy straight up.  Being under the pope was an afterthought.  The people have been Greek Catholic for 400 years.  their connection to rome is merely praying for the pope in litanies.  This is how it is, and they have latinizations, sure.  But they were Orthodox at one point and forced into Rome.  They never concerned themselves with the Vatican too much.  They don't have parish councils that override the priest.  They don't have converts that shun their ethnic traditions, the very traditions that connect home life with the Faith ( ok, to a point they have Roman Catholics that get like this a bit).  
And I'm not going to knock them, yes they are in union with the pope.  It isn't their fault.  Most people don't even think about it, they just go to church.  And frankly they look at the Orthodox church that broke away from their church and think, man, I don't want to go through that parish council in fighting.  The priests are paid a decent salary and receive medical insurance.  You can't say that about every Orthodox parish and priest.
Now I would never go back to being Greek Catholic.  I am under the Patriarch of Constantinople.  I believe Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith.  It is worth it and everything I go through to be Orthodox.  But I will never condemn someone for being Greek Catholic or staying Greek Catholic.  
Remember where I live, people will go back and forth between Greek CAtholicism and Orthodoxy.  Often marriages are interfaith and if the greek catholic priest makes them mad they'll go to the orthodox church until they decide to park it at the greek catholic church.  Is that right? No.  Am I God and the judge of mankind? No.  Like I said, the former Greek Catholic priest at my family's "Greek Catholic parish which was my parish until I joined my family's Orthodox Church was the kindest man ever.  He was as Orthodox as anyone, even though he was under the pope.  I miss him, he taught the faith, he cared, he was there for his people, he suffered greatly with his diabetes and never complained.  He was truly the father of his flock.  
This stuff never gets talked about online.  It always gets into some us versus them fight.  I am not advocating inter-communion but I am saying that we have learned to love one another and work together.  And Christ said, love one another and forgive, work together, strive for peace and goodwill towards mankind.

Thanks for this post.

Yes, before I converted to Orthodoxy, I was a Melkite Catholic, but my heritage was Maronite. We had a lot of Maronites in the Melkite Church who had been latinized, so the Melkite Priest conducted a Bible Class for them to help them better understand the Orthodox faith. And he used books published by Light and Life, St. Vladimir Seminary Press, and the Melkite publishing company too. His classes were very Orthodox, in fact, even more Orthodox than the Greek Orthodox Priest (in the adjacent suburb) who preached that it was better for a Buddhist to remain a good Buddhist than to try to convert to Orthodoxy (In other words, this Greek Orthodox Priest taught: Why bother converting these non-Christians? Tell them to go to their temple and really learn their faith.)

[Irish Hermit]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

[Papist]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Well, as this is not the private forum and I have already been warned once for expressing my honest opinion about another poster, all I will say is that I don't think that your characterizations of Catholic teaching/the Catholic Church are in line with honest discussion and inquiry.
That doesn't mean that I have a low opinion of Eastern Orthodoxy. I think it's quite beautiful, and alluring.

[ialmisry]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Well, as this is not the private forum and I have already been warned once for expressing my honest opinion about another poster, all I will say is that I don't think that your characterizations of Catholic teaching/the Catholic Church are in line with honest discussion and inquiry.
That doesn't mean that I have a low opinion of Eastern Orthodoxy. I think it's quite beautiful, and alluring.

not to mention true.

[elijahmaria]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God, and best of all good things to them.  If they remain in the Catholic Church they will simply be a bone of contention and who needs that?  We have plenty of those folks t'stay at home.  I do my very best to direct some folks to Orthodoxy actually.  Now and then you get a rare find in a Catholic convert...but...not always.

[Irish Hermit]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.
.

I was not speaking of Catholics in general but of the CAF crowd who are unique in their way. One major reason given by the moderatorial staff for banishing the Orthodox members was that their financial backers were very chagrined that their money was supporting a forum where Catholics were able to learn of Orthodoxy and convert.

[Irish Hermit]

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......

[Irish Melkite]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Are you trying to love him into trusting and relaxing or are you putting him in his place here?...I can't quite tell.  I mean they say you are so good and loving so I am sure you'd not be making fun of Papist or doing anything to confirm his worst fears.

M.

Mary,

I've known Chris for several years now, here and at CAF (and, if I remember correctly, he also spent a brief period at ByzCath). What I said was half in jest, and certainly hyperbole, but it also had a large element of truth in it. Someone referred to his comment as being 'proof-texting' and I suppose I could have just agreed with that and let it go. But, truth be told, my response to him reflected fact - my comment (or failure to comment, actually) on any of the other Churches or faiths that I named could just as easily have been characterized as evincing a lack of love or respect for them. But, he didn't choose to do so because seizing on my failure to specifically address my love and respect for Latins supported his conviction that I moderated with a bias toward the EO - or against the Latins, take your pick. Apparently, he wasn't alone in thinking that - the CAF administration seemingly believed it as well. Well, if I was, then I'd have expected to have heard complaints from ECs or others along the same lines - but I never have that I can recollect.

Why? There certainly were ECs (and OCs) who engaged in spirited debate at CAF with those of the Orthodox faith - including myself at times in my Irish Melkite persona. The difference was the nature of the debates, how they were conducted, and how they ended - generally all very differently from what happened when (some) Latins engaged in the fray; and, notably, those self-same Latins were as often in conflict with the EC posters as with the EO posters, not infrequently with both at the same time.

It was not a bashful crowd posting there (think Isa, Bob/Orthodoc, stashko, and Father Ambrose) and more than one Eastern Orthodox poster was formally suspended for a period or informally asked to take a brief vacation from posting. But, you know what? The same was true of Eastern Catholic posters. As, indeed, it was of Latin posters. Do I think that anyone was happy when that happened to them? I'm old, Mary, but not senile. Of course, they were not but, in the comments made to the old CAF thread here, several folk acknowledged having had mandated time out but expressed the opinion that it was justified.

I like to believe that was what they really thought - that it wasn't just said as a 'feel-good', after-the-fact, reaction to the much more hard-line style of moderation that followed my termination. No, I can't know that with certainty but I can know that we not infrequently discussed, via PM, what was and was not appropriate posting or style. And, if I was harder on the Latins, it was because they made it harder on themselves by telling us - Eastern Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, what we must believe, what our theology should look like, how our spirituality could be best evidenced. It certainly would not have flown had Easterners invaded the Latin-oriented fora there and done likewise.

I was a Latin Catholic for the first 20 years of my life. Although I transferred my canonical enrollment to the Melkites in the immediate aftermath of VII, I did so neither because of VII nor because of any disdain for the Church in which I was raised. In fact, although I shudder at some of what has passed for liturgics in the past few decades, I still believe that the Latin Church has the imperfect fullness of the faith (as I believe also with regard to the Eastern and Oriental Catholic and Orthodox Churches - each being diminished in its exercise of that faith by its separation from the other Apostolic Churches, as I already explained earlier).

My issue is not with Latins, it is with Latin triumphalism as is commonly experienced here and elsewhere on the net, much more so than it is in real life. Many of the comments by Matt and David as to the differences between real life and life on the net are as equally applicable to the average Latin Catholic in his/her relationship with Eastern Catholics (if they are even aware of us) as they are to the relations between the Carpatho-Rusyns of the Ruthenian Metropolia and those of the Carpatho-Russian Archdiocese, or the UGCC and the UOC, or the Melkites and the Antiochians.

Real life is supporting the functions of one another's parishes because they share an ecclesio-cultural history. Real life is priests from two Churches saying prayers at the wake of a deceased person whose family is split between the two. Real life is offering the use of vestments, liturgical accoutrements, and even of one's temple to the counterpart worship community whose temple burned to the ground. Real life is the prayerful and tearful words of a hierarch expressed on the occasion of the repose of his counterpart who shepherded the 'other' Church. Real life is acknowledging that the sacred text published under the auspices of the 'other' Church is the better translation or the more spiritually edifying.

Real life is an EO presbyter readily agreeing to allow use of photos of his temple to illustrate an 'historical' entry in the EC directory because it was once an EC parish and offering to take photos of any of the EC temples in his area that are lacking same in their directory entries. Real life is Matt thanking Anhelyna for representing him and others who could not be in attendance at the funeral liturgy of an EC priest. Real life is praying for one another's health, praying that the memory of one another's loved ones be eternal, praying the blessing of a priest of the 'other' Church to whom one is speaking.

Real life is not belittling one another's belief or spirituality or praxis. Thanks be to God, those are generally only the virtual life of religious internet fora.   

Many years,

Neil

   

[JR]

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......

You discredit and condemn us with such uncharitable thoughts !

For the most part I have deep respect for my learn'd Eastern brethren and there faith. I would never say such things as you have mentioned and I would never call anybody a heretic ! that is for God to judge, and God only !

Our conversations should always be with charity and understanding, to explain our stance and defend our faith with the virtue of the Apostles themselves, but never get personal in our words or thoughts.

I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you. but  if you take into consideration that neither Orthodoxy nor Byzantine exists where I had lived most of my life then you would understand.

We had a choice of Catholic, protestant or Methodist. there was not even a mosque.

My exposure to Eastern religion / faith was when I moved to Greece a while ago now.

I just thought you should know that not everybody has a choice of what church they belong to, so Latin Rite should not be called Heretic out of charity for the ones that don't now about the East, for there are many that don't.

Shalom

[Irish Hermit]

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......

You discredit and condemn us with such uncharitable thoughts !

I rather wish that one of our Catholic sisters here would listen to your words.  You see, I wrote what I did because she has said, several times, that there can no cooperation betwen us (Rome and Russia) in fighting secularisation and moral degeneration because of these two moral issues, divorce/remarriage and contraception.

For the most part I have deep respect for my learn'd Eastern brethren and there faith. I would never say such things as you have mentioned and I would never call anybody a heretic ! that is for God to judge, and God only !

Our conversations should always be with charity and understanding, to explain our stance and defend our faith with the virtue of the Apostles themselves, but never get personal in our words or thoughts.

I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you. but  if you take into consideration that neither Orthodoxy nor Byzantine exists where I had lived most of my life then you would understand.

We had a choice of Catholic, protestant or Methodist. there was not even a mosque.

My exposure to Eastern religion / faith was when I moved to Greece a while ago now.

I just thought you should know that not everybody has a choice of what church they belong to, so Latin Rite should not be called Heretic out of charity for the ones that don't now about the East, for there are many that don't.

Shalom

[Irish Hermit]

I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you.

It doesn't sound contradictory and in fact I have lots of Catholic friends who say just the same thing.

[JR]

I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you.

It doesn't sound contradictory and in fact I have lots of Catholic friends who say just the same thing.

Nice to know 

[Theophilos78]

What is this thread about? What happened at the CAF? The first forum I started to write posts at. Also the first forum I was kicked out of due to my altercation with a follower of Ahmadiyya... 

[Irish Melkite]

What is this thread about?

That's the $64.000 question if ever there was one

What happened at the CAF?

Read the opening post - and if you aren't familiar with the history of the old Eastern Christianity forum there - and the purging of its Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic members a few years back - you may want to set aside a day or two and read the stickied thread on the topic at the top of this forum. (I'd explain it, but there's only so many hours in the week )

Many years,

Neil

[Irish Hermit]

Read the opening post - and if you aren't familiar with the history of the old Eastern Christianity forum there - and the purging of its Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic members a few years back - you may want to set aside a day or two and read the stickied thread on the topic at the top of this forum.

Here is the thread on this Forum about the Great CAF Purge of 2007 - one by one we bedraggled refugees from CAF scrambled aboard the OC.net lifeboat and looked around for old friends and mates who had survived the Purge.  Some were missing arms, others were eyeless, some were legless.....

"catholic answers forum bars orthodox dicussion"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.0.html

[podkarpatska]

I have been privileged over the course of my life to have known many wonderful, kind, knowledgeable and honest priests, bishops, monks and lay people - good Christians - Orthodox and Catholic alike - who labor tirelessly in the vineyards of our Lord's 'real world'. Seldom have I read words as heartfelt, honest and true as those expressed by Neil this morning in his lengthy post. Thank you for sharing them with us.

Frankly, we get so worked up about our differences and in name-calling and we carry the hurt caused by the words and actions of others so close to our hearts that we often lose sight of what our God calls upon us to do in life. The words of our Lord and Savior come to mind: "And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other." Mark 3:5, KJV.


S'bohom.

David

[Marc1152]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God, and best of all good things to them.  If they remain in the Catholic Church they will simply be a bone of contention and who needs that?  We have plenty of those folks t'stay at home.  I do my very best to direct some folks to Orthodoxy actually.  Now and then you get a rare find in a Catholic convert...but...not always.

Is it really true that most Orthodox Consider the RCC as 'Heretics"..Aren't you exaggerating just a bit? In schism from the Church certainly and obviously and there are a few newly minted doga's that in polite company we may call "Innovative" but I don't thing we consider the RCC heretics in the same manner as we apply the term to Mormons and such the like.

If any one of us were asked to advise a person who was choosing between Mormonism and the RCC I dont think there would be a moments hesitation to choose for a conservative RCC Parish ( no Liturgical Dancing, or talking in tongues etc.)    

[Marc1152]

Read the opening post - and if you aren't familiar with the history of the old Eastern Christianity forum there - and the purging of its Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic members a few years back - you may want to set aside a day or two and read the stickied thread on the topic at the top of this forum.

Here is the thread on this Forum about the Great CAF Purge of 2007 - one by one we bedraggled refugees from CAF scrambled aboard the OC.net lifeboat and looked around for old friends and mates who had survived the Purge.  Some were missing arms, others were eyeless, some were legless.....

"catholic answers forum bars orthodox dicussion"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13287.0.html

Here is the You Tube of it: 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZhl6QswlsQ&feature=relmfu

[Marc1152]

I am a Latin Rite Catholic, I love Orthodoxy and the Byzantine Rite.

That probably sounds contradictory to you.

It doesn't sound contradictory and in fact I have lots of Catholic friends who say just the same thing.

One part of my wife's family is RCC. They show up for Baptism's etc en-mass at our little Rocor Mission Church and sure do fill the place up. They always LOVE It.. My standard question to them is "Catholic enough for ya?,, And they say "Oh yes yes yes.. This is the real deal.."

I think people just want something that challenges them a bit without short cuts or reconfigured to the lowest common denominator.

[elijahmaria]

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......

You discredit and condemn us with such uncharitable thoughts !

I rather wish that one of our Catholic sisters here would listen to your words.  You see, I wrote what I did because she has said, several times, that there can no cooperation betwen us (Rome and Russia) in fighting secularisation and moral degeneration because of these two moral issues, divorce/remarriage and contraception.

Once again you distort what I say here, and anywhere else I have chance to say it.

I do not say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law because the ROC is heretical.

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

It is that so-called heretical faith from which springs Catholic moral teaching.  They cannot be separated.  It is a fundamental truth of Systematic Moral Theology 101.

So don't tell but the truth on me, Father...please.

[Jack Bauer]

Always was angry for the CAF issue.  Though I still go there I've since realize just how uncharitable the site moderators can users can be.  Some are not so bad, but there are definitely those that love to hate.

[Irish Hermit]

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

I just find your words so flawed.  Even the simplest woman on the street can see that we share a great amount of moral law, and that commonality is not destroyed by the small amount of your teaching which is flawed and heretical in our eyes.

[Papist]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Well, as this is not the private forum and I have already been warned once for expressing my honest opinion about another poster, all I will say is that I don't think that your characterizations of Catholic teaching/the Catholic Church are in line with honest discussion and inquiry.
That doesn't mean that I have a low opinion of Eastern Orthodoxy. I think it's quite beautiful, and alluring.

not to mention true.

Mostly... mostly.

[username!]

I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

[ialmisry]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God, and best of all good things to them.  If they remain in the Catholic Church they will simply be a bone of contention and who needs that?  We have plenty of those folks t'stay at home.  I do my very best to direct some folks to Orthodoxy actually.  Now and then you get a rare find in a Catholic convert...but...not always.

Is it really true that most Orthodox Consider the RCC as 'Heretics"..Aren't you exaggerating just a bit? In schism from the Church certainly and obviously and there are a few newly minted doga's that in polite company we may call "Innovative" but I don't thing we consider the RCC heretics in the same manner as we apply the term to Mormons and such the like.

If any one of us were asked to advise a person who was choosing between Mormonism and the RCC I dont think there would be a moments hesitation to choose for a conservative RCC Parish ( no Liturgical Dancing, or talking in tongues etc.)    

Hell, I might be tempted to recommend even one of the Vatican's more liberal parishes in that situation.

[Maria]

I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me   .  What was I thinking?  

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  

Many years,

Neil      

Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Dear Papist, my own interaction with you over at CAF was hardly sterling.  No doubt  chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy you once described me:

"...one of he most dishonest reporters of Church history, one of the worst anti-Catholic biggots, and one of the rudest trolls ever to grace the Catholic Answers forums!!! "

Father you need to get over the idea that we are chagrined by the converts to Orthodoxy.

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God, and best of all good things to them.  If they remain in the Catholic Church they will simply be a bone of contention and who needs that?  We have plenty of those folks t'stay at home.  I do my very best to direct some folks to Orthodoxy actually.  Now and then you get a rare find in a Catholic convert...but...not always.

Is it really true that most Orthodox Consider the RCC as 'Heretics"..Aren't you exaggerating just a bit? In schism from the Church certainly and obviously and there are a few newly minted doga's that in polite company we may call "Innovative" but I don't thing we consider the RCC heretics in the same manner as we apply the term to Mormons and such the like.

If any one of us were asked to advise a person who was choosing between Mormonism and the RCC I dont think there would be a moments hesitation to choose for a conservative RCC Parish ( no Liturgical Dancing, or talking in tongues etc.)    

After reading the thread about Assisi and the pope being blessed by a voodo witch doctor, I would have to agree with you that if a person were trying to choose between Mormonism and Roman Catholicism, I would not hesitate to recommend a more traditional Catholic Church, preferably the SSPX. However, I would also give them a book about Holy Orthodoxy, and encourage them to look East toward Greece.

[Maria]

I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

Thank you, Father, for this reminder.

Pride, arrogance, and triumphalism are not qualities that should be promoted on any Christian site.

I have known some Catholics who were very saintly, and I have met many Orthodoxy whom I consider to be living saints.
It was the devout Eastern Catholics and their love of Orthodoxy that lead me to Orthodoxy.

[ialmisry]

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......

You discredit and condemn us with such uncharitable thoughts !

I rather wish that one of our Catholic sisters here would listen to your words.  You see, I wrote what I did because she has said, several times, that there can no cooperation betwen us (Rome and Russia) in fighting secularisation and moral degeneration because of these two moral issues, divorce/remarriage and contraception.

Once again you distort what I say here, and anywhere else I have chance to say it.

I do not say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law because the ROC is heretical.

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

It is that so-called heretical faith from which springs Catholic moral teaching.  They cannot be separated.  It is a fundamental truth of Systematic Moral Theology 101.

So don't tell but the truth on me, Father...please.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28877.0.html

Irish HermitPatriarch: Pope Is Like-Minded on Morals, Values
Says Both Churches Can Work Together on Many Issues

http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

MOSCOW, JULY 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Orthodox Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russias says he and Benedict XVI often see eye-to-eye on many issues, especially with regard to those of a moral nature.
 
The Patriarch said this in statements on the occasion of his trip to Ukraine, reported today by the Russian agency Interfax.
 
"I must say that the position of the present Pope, Benedict XVI, leaves room for optimism," he said in an interview on Ukrainian television channels, on the eve of his visit to that country.

To continue reading...
http://www.zenit.org/article-29930?l=english

Quote from: Papist on July 20, 2010, 10:25:42 AM
Cool.

How is it cool when Orthodoxy allows both artificial birth control and abortion...depending?

How is that cool?

M.

The point in question here is whether or not Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church follow the same formal teaching, de facto and de jure.  My own observations are "Not yet."  And more to the point I do not believe that they would want to give up that little escape clause built into sexual teaching.

I say close the gap and let the faithful confess their transgressions.  That is the, what was it called?...Neanderthal.... position of the Pope.  Not at all like-minded with the Patriarch, as far as I can see from here.  Apparently that Patriarchs are more modern in their thinking...not at all Neanderthal!!

Mary

I think the point I am making and I'll use Father Harakas's book to make it is that, formally, Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church do not yet teach the same message on sexual morality.

Mary

That is quite right.  The Catholic Church does not teach divorce either and does not recognize so-called second marriages.   One wonders, superficially, what the Patriarch is thinking...eh?   I expect that there's more going on there than meets the eye, but I do think the message needs to be made more clear.

I was about to come back and say that I am not speaking in terms of tit-for-tat but am saying that both Churches will have to find some way to speak with one voice concerning their various approaches to sexual morality and marriage in particular, but of course there's no room for that is there.

Mary

So again, I challenge the Patriarch when he says that he and the Pope are like-minded on moral issues.

I think there's still a good bit of work to be done before that condition pertains in truth.

Mary

I also think that there's more work to be done before Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church can claim a mutual moral ground.  Now if that is a crime them I will stand before God and country and defend the truth of it.

Mary E. Lanser

PeterTheAleut on August 04, 2010, 08:24:51 PM

But you have to admit that you're being dishonest by alleging that Fr. Ambrose advocates sexual license and by withholding information that refutes your allegation.  As I learned honesty, not telling the whole truth is often as bad as telling a lie.

No. I don't need to admit that at all.  

We are speaking in the context of an Orthodox Patriarch saying that he and the Catholic Pope are of like mind on moral issues.

In the context of ALL methods of birth control in Catholic marriages, for a priest to encourage a couple to go ahead and use barrier methods because abstinence is too difficult is an example of sexual license.  Perhaps you simply cannot follow my line of reasoning because you do not have a Catholic phronema.

Since Father Ambrose, from New Zealand, is very clear that his bishop supports his actions and so thereby his Patriarch.  Since that is the case my conclusions stand.

There is no moral like mindedness between the Patriarch in question and the Pope when it comes to artificial birth control.  So the entire assertion can be thrown out till there is a closer and more clearly stated accord.

Mary

Barrier method birth control, if what you say is correct.   That is what fits into my own assertion concerning the Patriarch's somewhat premature announcement about the like-mindedness of the Catholic Pope on moral issues.

M.

Until the Catholic and Orthodox confessions speak as one on issues of sexual morality, you can go ahead and laugh your head off.  And we will both eventually see who laughs best....

Mary

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27710.msg436904.html#msg436904
Doctrinal Theology is not separated from Moral Theology

ElijahmariaHow can this article be true if the Catholic Church teaches so many heresies?  How can we agree on any moral teaching if our doctrinal teachings are so far apart?  

Orthodoxy could never agree to the Catholic stance on abortion, contraception or divorce and they are greatest threats to moral stability in the world....

So what is this showboating about?

No wonder they are calling Archbishop Hilarion a heretic!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++


Catholics and Russian Orthodox Seen as Allies
Moscow Patriarchate Sponsors 2-Day Event in Vatican

By Carmen Elena Villa
 
ROME, MAY 19, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Catholics and Orthodox are growing in the awareness they are not competitors but allies, says an official from the Moscow Patriarchate.

Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev of Volokolamsk, chairman of the Department of External Affairs of the Moscow Patriarchate, affirmed this today at a press conference in the headquarters of the Pontifical Council for Culture.

That council, along with the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Moscow Patriarchate, is sponsoring a Day of Russian Culture and Spirituality in the Vatican, being held today and Thursday.

Archbishop Hilarion, himself an accomplished music composer, noted how culture, art and music have become indispensable in Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.

Through this language, "we can say what we cannot express with diplomatic or political words," he contended. "It is possible to live this dialogue at several levels, also with simple persons."

As part of the cultural event, there will be a concert Thursday in honor of Benedict XVI, sponsored by the patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, His Holiness Kirill I.

Past rivalries

Archbishop Hilarion went on to note that in both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church "the awareness has grown of not being in competition, but of being allies." The rivalries of the past, he added, "must stay there, in the past."

He noted that cultural changes, particularly the "de-Christianization of our countries," is calling for "greater collaboration."

Other cultural changes call increasingly for an open dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox, the prelate said: "Today there are many mixed marriages. We often find an Orthodox person next to a Catholic."
 
"The whole of Russian culture has been founded on a Christian world," recalled the archbishop."When we were banned from all activities, culture enabled us to go forward."

He also reflected how Russian spiritual music is much heard in Catholic liturgy, not to mention how many persons read Dostoyevsky and other authors, he noted.
 
Friends of Benedict

Archbishop Hilarion affirmed that for many Orthodox, "the election of Benedict XVI was received positively," especially because of "his position on moral questions."

"There is a commitment [among the Orthodox] to observe and promote traditional values," he said.
 
In regard to the theological dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics, the archbishop projected that it will last for many years.
 
"Each stage of the dialogue ends with a text where Catholics and Orthodox say something together," he explained. "What is important is that these texts are received not only by theologians but also by the faithful."
 
Surmounting differences
 
For his part, Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the cultural event can become an opportunity "to deepen our ecumenical relations themselves in a new dimension."
 
"The sad age-old separation between East and West was not only caused by theological differences or political conflicts, but especially by distance and a cultural alienation," he explained.

This distance must be overcome, the cardinal affirmed, not in the sense of a leveling "but in the sense of a mutual enrichment, a communion without fusion or absorption."
 
Such a communion, he proposed, can be "a strong common testimony of the richness of European culture and its Christian roots -- today, lamentably forgotten by many and even denied and rejected."

Apparently Orthodoxy believes that doctrinal theology and moral theology are unrelated.  That is an interesting development in my understanding of things, so I will be giving it some thought for the future.

Nonetheless I am still not convinced that there's much if anything to be gained by pretending to share morality when Orthodox formally allows for abortion and contraception and divorce and the Catholic Church teaches formally and emphatically against ALL abortion, all forms of contraception and divorce.

I am aware there are pastoral considerations in both confessions but the formal teachings are widely divergent.  

So I am not sure what Metropolitan Hilarion is saying in that article that I posted before the thread got derailed...

M.

It seems to me that what is being suggested is a collaboration to work to save the collective souls of Christian Europe...not just hoppin' on a committee somewhere to lobby for more or less contraception or fewer abortions.

I don't see that as possible at all.  

I will modify that to say I don't see that as at all possible, given the kinds of attitudes I see on Internet venues that are open to Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.  To much vitriol and disparagement, mockery and idle meanness to have any good effect in any kind of evangelical project of any kind.

Mary

It is all empty words without communion.  Very sad to me.  Given the range of teachings, attitudes and aspects visible in Orthodoxy directed at the papal Church, and the sheer volume of doctrinal detritus,  I think it is an effort that is doomed to make things worse.  I am not in favor of evangelizing with yourself for example who spends so much energy on telling Catholics how horrid is their Church.

Mary

Dear Mary,

As I mentioned on another thread, I think your apprehension of Catholicism as you would like it to be and Catholicism as the Pope sees it are not the same.  

We see that the Pope wishes to work with the Orthodox on the re-evangelisation of Europe and plainly he does not see our differences in moral teaching as preventing this co-operative evangelisation.

I have created a new thread for this topic at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27801.new.html

and here is a sampling to whet your appetite......


++++++++++++++++++++++++

A Holy Alliance between Rome and Moscow Is Born

The common objective: the "new evangelization" of Europe. A delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church visits the Vatican, which publishes an anthology of the patriarch's writings. A meeting between Kirill and Benedict XVI keeps getting closer




ROME, May 24, 2010 – Benedict XVI will soon create a new "pontifical council" expressly dedicated to the "new evangelization." Not for mission countries where the congregation "de propaganda fide" is already at work. But for the countries of ancient Christian tradition that are today in danger of losing the faith.

Pope Joseph Ratzinger wants to link his pontificate to this initiative. And this was the main topic that he discussed one morning in the spring of 2009, at Castel Gandolfo, with four prominent cardinals he had called for consultation: Camillo Ruini, Angelo Bagnasco, Christoph Schönborn, and Angelo Scola, the last being the most resolute in promoting the institution of the new office.

Meanwhile, one great ally has already united with the pope from outside of the Catholic Church, in this enterprise of a new evangelization.

This great ally is the Russian Orthodox Church.

Extract from
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1343399?eng=y

[biro]

tl;dr

[Maria]

tl;dr

What does tl;dr mean?

[dzheremi]

"Too long, didn't read", I think? I'm generally awful at internet acronyms, but I think I've seen that one enough in reply to my own posts...

[Maria]

"Too long, didn't read", I think? I'm generally awful at internet acronyms, but I think I've seen that one enough in reply to my own posts...

Thanks for your prompt response.

I did skim that post, but it did not make much sense.
I certainly could see why the comment "tl;dr" was made.

[Marc1152]

Let's take a short break:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HuShaTNoY

[Maria]

My flash player is not working: It crashed.

You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

[Jack Bauer]

Let's take a short break:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3HuShaTNoY

I LOVE IT!  Sent it to my pastor.  Come to think of it, maybe that's what lasting marriages are based on... Sent it to my pastor.

Yes, Dear.

[elijahmaria]

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

I just find your words so flawed.  Even the simplest woman on the street can see that we share a great amount of moral law, and that commonality is not destroyed by the small amount of your teaching which is flawed and heretical in our eyes.

 

You are talking about a common ethic.  All over the world peoples who are not even Christian legislate in their own social structures strictures against murder, including infanticide and abortion, against theft, against slander and calumny, against infidelity in marriage [however they define it]...

OF COURSE you are going to have some common ethic between Christian groups...

But that does NOT mean that Russian and Rome share a catholic and systematic doctrinal and faith foundation out of which flows Catholic moral law...and yes al Misry the Vatican is the petrine see of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

You simply do not see Rome rushing out to embrace Orthodox morality.  Rather you see the pope reminding Orthodoxy about our differences, in a most polite, but public manner.

Nothing heretical there.

[elijahmaria]

I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

Good thoughts!!...great thoughts in fact...

[Irish Hermit]

You simply do not see Rome rushing out to embrace Orthodox morality.  Rather you see the pope reminding Orthodoxy about our differences, in a most polite, but public manner.

Nothing heretical there.

I would be very surprised indeed if an institution, the papacy, an institution never intended by Christ our Saviour, were able to get everything right.  Walking on their own idiosyncratic path the Popes are certain to make mistakes in theology and in morals.. 

[ialmisry]

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

I just find your words so flawed.  Even the simplest woman on the street can see that we share a great amount of moral law, and that commonality is not destroyed by the small amount of your teaching which is flawed and heretical in our eyes.

 

You are talking about a common ethic.  All over the world peoples who are not even Christian legislate in their own social structures strictures against murder, including infanticide and abortion, against theft, against slander and calumny, against infidelity in marriage [however they define it]...

OF COURSE you are going to have some common ethic between Christian groups...

But that does NOT mean that Russian and Rome share a catholic and systematic doctrinal and faith foundation out of which flows Catholic moral law...and yes al Misry the Vatican is the petrine see of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

No, according to Pope St. Gregory, whom you would like to embrace as a "supreme pontiff" (and not that he might have been adverse to that), Rome, Alexandria and Antioch are one "petrine see" of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  One Pope of that One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church proclaims the Faith and morality of St. Peter

one patriarch founded by St. Peter himself proclaiming his Faith and morality

and one bishop in Rome proclaiming St. Peter's Faith and morality

You simply do not see Rome rushing out to embrace Orthodox morality.

No, just the Vatican's followers, 90+% of whom may pay lip service to the "magisterium," but embrace Orthodoxy morality nonetheless.

Rather you see the pope reminding Orthodoxy about our differences, in a most polite, but public manner.

Nothing heretical there.

You said:

I say that Rome and Russia cannot share a moral law when Orthodoxy declares, formally and informally, that the Catholic faith is heretical.

So it isn't that Russia, in holding to and proclaiming the Catholic Faith, is declaring, formally and informally, that the Vatican's faith is heretical, but rather the heretical Vatican reminding us of the differences between it and our Catholic Faith,  which prevents the Vatican (since Russia has a local Cathedral in Rome, and is in communion with the bishop at Rome in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church, "Rome" is inappropriate) and Russia from sharing a moral law.  That's OK, just don't try to shift the blame to Moscow.

Although I haven't seen your supreme pontiff reminding us of our differences, publicly, privately, politely or impolitely.  Just you.  A lot. 

But that's not new, now, is it?

[podkarpatska]

I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years. 
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism. 
Just some food for thought.

I agree with you and I try to do just that. Those of us with a mixture of Greek Catholicism and Orthodoxy in our own , or our families history, do bring a perspective to the 'divide' that is different in many ways than the theoretical one that triumphalists and boasters of either side would like to envision as the 'reality on the ground'.

[Schultz]

My flash player is not working: It crashed.

You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

It's a scene from Cheers where Woody discovers that he and his fiancee Kelly are "from different religions."

He's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and she's Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. 

[Adela]

I agree with Neil, it sounds like the financial backers of "that site" didn't want Catholics to learn about Orthodoxy and convert.  While I was transitioning from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy I spent time at "that site."  Some of the posters that post here gave me solid advice and helped me along my way.  A poster here that was a mod as well invited me to her church and I never looked back. It was an easy transition.  I've been posting with some of our posters for the better part of 6 years.  
The latin triumphalism that is so profound on 'that other site' is not nice.  And as the moderator here I don't tolerate Orthodox triumphalism, not latin triumphalism.  I like sharing of knowledge and I don't like censoring but I won't put up with people playing the you're a heretic game or my God is better than yours.  People have their reasons for being Catholic.  People have their reasons for being Orthodox.  What is good is decent NON BICKERING discussion about Orthodox-Catholic topics here.

Moving forward I would like to see more topics in this forum, orthodox-catholic forum.  I would like to see more of the Greek Catholics post here that used to post at "that other site."  I would like to see some of the byzcath crowd come here as well  Comparing how Catholics and Orthodox celebrate feasts would be neat.  Discussing say catholic monasticism versus Orthodox monasticism would be neat.  Ask questions to better understand each other.
Remember a lot of Orthodox are ex-protestants who weren't too Catholic friendly to begin with.  Perhaps to help better understand Orthodoxy they should learn something about Catholicism.  
Just some food for thought.

I agree with you and I try to do just that. Those of us with a mixture of Greek Catholicism and Orthodoxy in our own , or our families history, do bring a perspective to the 'divide' that is different in many ways than the theoretical one that triumphalists and boasters of either side would like to envision as the 'reality on the ground'.

Yes, I enjoy reading posters such as Podkarpatska who can inform without attacking.  

These questions would be very interesting to delve into.  I did read on CAF (don't go there very often) where someone asked on the Eastern Catholicism forum what was the difference between Eastern Catholics and Orthodoxy. The answer was "The only difference is the Eastern Catholics have the pope".    But, that is such a shallow, misleading answer, there are some deeper differences such as the view on Original Sin, etc.  I would like to discuss these differences, and not hear words of attacks such as heretics and Vatican propagandists and Papists.....  Also, to find the commonality (without trying to be triumphant or to diminish the differences )

[ialmisry]

My flash player is not working: It crashed.

You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

It's a scene from Cheers where Woody discovers that he and his fiancee Kelly are "from different religions."

He's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and she's Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.  

I thought this funny when I first saw that (still do, but then it doesn't involve me anymore and I have no direct dog in the fight), but seeing the (opposite) directions that the two have taken, I'm not sure they aren't two different religions.  My old parish was in the founding of the ELCA.  Once in, many fled out to the MS. (btw, that had nothing to do with me embracing Orthodoxy) Now, the parish just decided to close its doors after 80 years.
http://www.mayfairlutheranchicago.org/

[FormerReformer]

My flash player is not working: It crashed.

You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.

I tried to install it several times, but alas, nothing works. PM me if anyone has a clue. I use mozilla/firefox/ubuntu.

So, what is this video all about?

It's a scene from Cheers where Woody discovers that he and his fiancee Kelly are "from different religions."

He's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod and she's Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. 

LOL That clip's popped up again? Must be that time of year. One of my favorite Cheers moments.