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Author Topic: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!  (Read 25187 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2011, 06:28:22 PM »

Quote
All I know is that a church that prides its theology on being logical and forthright has a very strange sense of ecclesiology whereby a religious body cannot be considered "part of the church" but whose adherents are allowed to receive the one thing that exemplifies being "part of the church:" namely Holy Communion.

Oh, this is brilliant! Hoist by their own petards. Thanks for this, Schultz!

And indeed the exact point of the Orthodox side in the North American consultations!
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« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2011, 06:31:53 PM »

I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ...  

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   Shocked

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there?  Huh

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil
Probably because the bias in favor of Eastern Orthodoxy was palpable. When the moderator is allowing threads celebrating a Catholic's defection to Eastern Orthodoxy, he certainly cannot give the advice the provided above. He'd have to practice what he preaches first.

Your defective assesment of our old CAF moderator is incorrigible.  Cry

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« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2011, 06:47:56 PM »

Is this all an inside joke"?  What is CAF?
The Forum at Catholic Answers dot com.
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« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2011, 06:51:50 PM »

And yet is that not offering the greater thing (communion) and refraining from the lesser (concelebration)?

Yes.  But it is the right thing in my opinion.
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« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2011, 06:57:33 PM »

Hmm. Do you mind if I ask how you come to that conclusion, Deacon Lance? Because my initial reaction was one of confusion, as I thought the same thing that Irish Hermit thought. It's a bit like getting turned down for a $500 loan from the bank, only to have them offer you a $500,000 loan instead.
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« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2011, 07:17:18 PM »

^^Thank you Fr. A and Fr. Deacon for your answers, I was going to attempt to say the same as Papist's understanding is not what his Church has been proclaiming the past number of years.
The manner in which the pope addresses a heirarch of your church does not determine Catholic teaching. If you read Zoghby initiative and receent magesterial documents, the Eastern Othodox Church is considered deficient because of its lack of communion with Rome. These documents hold more weight than a papal address to an Eastern Orthodox bishop. Futher, councils teach that communion with Rome is necessary for one to be a member of the Church. These hold higher authority than a speach, greeting, or address from the Pope.
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« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2011, 07:30:50 PM »

What weight does the Zoghby initiative hold, exactly? It was rejected by Ratzinger when he was Cardinal, so I would be extremely surprised to find it elevated now that he is Pope.
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« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2011, 07:40:41 PM »

What weight does the Zoghby initiative hold, exactly? It was rejected by Ratzinger when he was Cardinal, so I would be extremely surprised to find it elevated now that he is Pope.
The Zoghby intiative holds no weight. However, the magesterial response to the initiative holds a great deal of weight. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that point. Mea Culpa.
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« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2011, 07:55:45 PM »

^^Thank you Fr. A and Fr. Deacon for your answers, I was going to attempt to say the same as Papist's understanding is not what his Church has been proclaiming the past number of years.
The manner in which the pope addresses a heirarch of your church does not determine Catholic teaching. If you read Zoghby initiative and receent magesterial documents, the Eastern Othodox Church is considered deficient because of its lack of communion with Rome. These documents hold more weight than a papal address to an Eastern Orthodox bishop. Futher, councils teach that communion with Rome is necessary for one to be a member of the Church. These hold higher authority than a speach, greeting, or address from the Pope.

Please reread Dominus Iesus:

17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2011, 08:07:56 PM »

Hmm. Do you mind if I ask how you come to that conclusion, Deacon Lance? Because my initial reaction was one of confusion, as I thought the same thing that Irish Hermit thought. It's a bit like getting turned down for a $500 loan from the bank, only to have them offer you a $500,000 loan instead.

It is a great paradox is it not?  Hierarchal concelebration would require reunion, something that is very hard to aquire and in fact may never happen before our Lord returns.  On the otherhand, communing members of seperated sister churches is very easy to do and in fact may happen quite more often before our Lord returns. 
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« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2011, 08:28:03 PM »

^^Thank you Fr. A and Fr. Deacon for your answers, I was going to attempt to say the same as Papist's understanding is not what his Church has been proclaiming the past number of years.
The manner in which the pope addresses a heirarch of your church does not determine Catholic teaching. If you read Zoghby initiative and receent magesterial documents, the Eastern Othodox Church is considered deficient because of its lack of communion with Rome. These documents hold more weight than a papal address to an Eastern Orthodox bishop. Futher, councils teach that communion with Rome is necessary for one to be a member of the Church. These hold higher authority than a speach, greeting, or address from the Pope.

Please reread Dominus Iesus:

17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
I've read this, and modern Church documents must be interpreted in light of past teaching. If communion with Rome is necessary to be in communion with the Catholic Church, then your interpretation of Dominus Iesus is incorrect. Notice that it says the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. Then in other apostolic communions, it says that the Church is present an opperative there. It subsists in the Catholic Church beacuse the Catholic Church is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. It is only present and operative in the other Church, and this is true because because those Church participate in the sacraments that are properly Catholic. Thus, the Church is present in those sacraments, but they are still in schism form the Church.
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« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2011, 08:40:15 PM »

there's a reason why many people (and this latin rite Catholic) rarely, if ever, post over there anymore.
Some of us are banned for life.

Yes, and I am one of them, no warnings, no emails, just logged on to find a screen saying lifetime ban.

So mature of those robots lol

 Huh

Ditto..never had a warning.. never got an email... no chance to reply...Just got banned one day

Sometimes robots ask good questions:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZUNLV7e3vU
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« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2011, 01:47:24 AM »

Schultz: The Roman church essentially says "close enough". I don't get it either, but what I was taught in RCIA is that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches are closer to one another than any other two churches, and hence, while not being in full union, the Eastern Orthodox who is properly disposed may commune due to that perceived closeness. It's like you're more estranged than separated. This goes along with the view expressed by many Romans that the schism should be healed already, as it was mostly a result of human pride and arrogance or some such.

Again, I don't get it, but that's what I remember hearing when I asked my priest this very question. It seems that the Roman Catholic Church sees unity in terms of degree rather than absolutes

Oh, I know what the Roman church says.  I'm just trying to understand Papist's remark in light of the fact that I can, were I so inclined, skip up to the Basilica during lunch and receive communion if I wanted to do so.

Communion is a mark of who is "in church" and who is not. 

Exactly, the Roman Catholic Church has a very confused sense of ecclesiology.
This comes from modernism, does it not?

That, I don't know.

All I know is that a church that prides its theology on being logical and forthright has a very strange sense of ecclesiology whereby a religious body cannot be considered "part of the church" but whose adherents are allowed to receive the one thing that exemplifies being "part of the church:" namely Holy Communion.

Some folks haven't caught up yet.

Maybe they miss it because Orthodox believers are so quick to tell them "So what?"... Wink
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« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2011, 04:27:56 AM »

Hmm. Do you mind if I ask how you come to that conclusion, Deacon Lance? Because my initial reaction was one of confusion, as I thought the same thing that Irish Hermit thought. It's a bit like getting turned down for a $500 loan from the bank, only to have them offer you a $500,000 loan instead.

It is a great paradox is it not?  Hierarchal concelebration would require reunion, something that is very hard to aquire and in fact may never happen before our Lord returns.  On the otherhand, communing members of seperated sister churches is very easy to do and in fact may happen quite more often before our Lord returns. 


To Orthodox eyes the Catholic position seems inconsistent.

From "Communion and Intercommunion"  by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware:


“Eucharistic ecclesiology implies therefore, a threefold unity: Eucharistic unity, that is unity in the one loaf and the one cup of Holy Communion; Dogmatic unity, that is, unity in the one Faith; and Ecclesial unity, that is, unity in the bishop.

“Therefore, intercommunion, or the sharing of sacraments between churches that do not share the same faith and/or bishop is a virtual impossibility. The Bible, the Church Fathers, and the Holy Canons know of only two possibilities: Communion and non-communion. It is all or nothing. Admitting one to communion and to church membership are identical; to what church one belongs is manifested where he receives communion, or where he is admitted to communion.”

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« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2011, 04:36:31 AM »

I need to profess a huge mistake on my part and beg Neil's forgiveness. I was confusing Irish Melkite with the moderator Joe. They are most certainly not the same person, and the accusations I was making were directed at Joe.

Neil, I am very sorry. This is a huge mistake on my part. I don't know why I was conflating the two of you. A case of mistaken identity. I really don't know anything about your moderator days over there. Please forgive me.

Chris,

No need to apologize or ask forgiveness. Actually, 'Joe Monahan' and I are one and the same person (to which Father Ambrose and a few other folk here - OzGeorge being one who comes to mind - can testify; in fact, I think - but may be wrong - that at some point after the classic CAF thread here, I publicly acknowledged my dual identity). CAF policy requires that mods create and use a nick other than the one under which they posted (so as to not bring any issues from their known identity into the mod role). I chose to adopt the name of a priest whom I knew as a youth and much admired.

(During my tenure as 'Joe', I'm fairly certain that only one active poster to the EC forum at CAF was aware of 'who' Joe was. He discovered it by accident when I accidently logged on as Joe - intending to do so as Irish Melkite - and signed off my post with my usual 'Many years' and real-life name. I quickly discovered my error and yanked the post, but one poster was on-line at the time and spotted it. He was and is a long-time, very trusted, friend and never divulged the info.)

As regards my 'bias', I'm pretty comfortable in the recollection that I was even-handed and would like to believe that most regulars on that forum believed that. Those who perceived bias were generally non-Easterners who had problems understanding the relationships that often existed between ECs and EOs there. Those were relationships that were characterized by debate, sometimes very spirited debate, but also by mutual respect and camaraderie, in which ECs and EOs regularly came to the support of one another when Latin triumphalism reared its head and attacked one or the other as being less 'Catholic'/'catholic' or less 'Orthodox'/'orthodox' than Latins.

I fully imagine that some of those who perceived me as biased would be surprised to discover that 'Joe Monahan' hasn't translated his ecclesial allegiance to the Orthodox Church (since they are so convinced that I allowed 'Catholic-bashing' by the Orthodox members of that forum) - well, I haven't, nor will I in this lifetime. I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren and firmly believe that the absolute fullness of our faiths will only be achieved in the ultimate union of the two, when the Holy Spirit tires of the divisions that man has created and leads the respective hierarchs to find the common ground on which they can and must unite. Would that it would happen in my lifetime, but I doubt that.

As regards 'conversion stories', ... I suggest you read this - the one and only post made to this site by 'Joe', in which I discuss that issue among others. You'll find it very much like what Father Ambrose has already said on the topic.

Many years,

Neil

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« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2011, 09:26:28 AM »

I need to profess a huge mistake on my part and beg Neil's forgiveness. I was confusing Irish Melkite with the moderator Joe. They are most certainly not the same person, and the accusations I was making were directed at Joe.

Neil, I am very sorry. This is a huge mistake on my part. I don't know why I was conflating the two of you. A case of mistaken identity. I really don't know anything about your moderator days over there. Please forgive me.

Chris,

No need to apologize or ask forgiveness. Actually, 'Joe Monahan' and I are one and the same person (to which Father Ambrose and a few other folk here - OzGeorge being one who comes to mind - can testify; in fact, I think - but may be wrong - that at some point after the classic CAF thread here, I publicly acknowledged my dual identity). CAF policy requires that mods create and use a nick other than the one under which they posted (so as to not bring any issues from their known identity into the mod role). I chose to adopt the name of a priest whom I knew as a youth and much admired.

(During my tenure as 'Joe', I'm fairly certain that only one active poster to the EC forum at CAF was aware of 'who' Joe was. He discovered it by accident when I accidently logged on as Joe - intending to do so as Irish Melkite - and signed off my post with my usual 'Many years' and real-life name. I quickly discovered my error and yanked the post, but one poster was on-line at the time and spotted it. He was and is a long-time, very trusted, friend and never divulged the info.)

As regards my 'bias', I'm pretty comfortable in the recollection that I was even-handed and would like to believe that most regulars on that forum believed that. Those who perceived bias were generally non-Easterners who had problems understanding the relationships that often existed between ECs and EOs there. Those were relationships that were characterized by debate, sometimes very spirited debate, but also by mutual respect and camaraderie, in which ECs and EOs regularly came to the support of one another when Latin triumphalism reared its head and attacked one or the other as being less 'Catholic'/'catholic' or less 'Orthodox'/'orthodox' than Latins.

I fully imagine that some of those who perceived me as biased would be surprised to discover that 'Joe Monahan' hasn't translated his ecclesial allegiance to the Orthodox Church (since they are so convinced that I allowed 'Catholic-bashing' by the Orthodox members of that forum) - well, I haven't, nor will I in this lifetime. I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren and firmly believe that the absolute fullness of our faiths will only be achieved in the ultimate union of the two, when the Holy Spirit tires of the divisions that man has created and leads the respective hierarchs to find the common ground on which they can and must unite. Would that it would happen in my lifetime, but I doubt that.

As regards 'conversion stories', ... I suggest you read this - the one and only post made to this site by 'Joe', in which I discuss that issue among others. You'll find it very much like what Father Ambrose has already said on the topic.

Many years,

Neil


I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.
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« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2011, 10:06:40 AM »

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Oh, for Pete's sake.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2011, 10:15:18 AM »

I need to profess a huge mistake on my part and beg Neil's forgiveness. I was confusing Irish Melkite with the moderator Joe. They are most certainly not the same person, and the accusations I was making were directed at Joe.

Neil, I am very sorry. This is a huge mistake on my part. I don't know why I was conflating the two of you. A case of mistaken identity. I really don't know anything about your moderator days over there. Please forgive me.

Chris,

No need to apologize or ask forgiveness. Actually, 'Joe Monahan' and I are one and the same person (to which Father Ambrose and a few other folk here - OzGeorge being one who comes to mind - can testify; in fact, I think - but may be wrong - that at some point after the classic CAF thread here, I publicly acknowledged my dual identity). CAF policy requires that mods create and use a nick other than the one under which they posted (so as to not bring any issues from their known identity into the mod role). I chose to adopt the name of a priest whom I knew as a youth and much admired.

(During my tenure as 'Joe', I'm fairly certain that only one active poster to the EC forum at CAF was aware of 'who' Joe was. He discovered it by accident when I accidently logged on as Joe - intending to do so as Irish Melkite - and signed off my post with my usual 'Many years' and real-life name. I quickly discovered my error and yanked the post, but one poster was on-line at the time and spotted it. He was and is a long-time, very trusted, friend and never divulged the info.)

As regards my 'bias', I'm pretty comfortable in the recollection that I was even-handed and would like to believe that most regulars on that forum believed that. Those who perceived bias were generally non-Easterners who had problems understanding the relationships that often existed between ECs and EOs there. Those were relationships that were characterized by debate, sometimes very spirited debate, but also by mutual respect and camaraderie, in which ECs and EOs regularly came to the support of one another when Latin triumphalism reared its head and attacked one or the other as being less 'Catholic'/'catholic' or less 'Orthodox'/'orthodox' than Latins.

I fully imagine that some of those who perceived me as biased would be surprised to discover that 'Joe Monahan' hasn't translated his ecclesial allegiance to the Orthodox Church (since they are so convinced that I allowed 'Catholic-bashing' by the Orthodox members of that forum) - well, I haven't, nor will I in this lifetime. I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren and firmly believe that the absolute fullness of our faiths will only be achieved in the ultimate union of the two, when the Holy Spirit tires of the divisions that man has created and leads the respective hierarchs to find the common ground on which they can and must unite. Would that it would happen in my lifetime, but I doubt that.

As regards 'conversion stories', ... I suggest you read this - the one and only post made to this site by 'Joe', in which I discuss that issue among others. You'll find it very much like what Father Ambrose has already said on the topic.

Many years,

Neil


I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Where I'm from, they call this 'proof texting'.

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« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2011, 10:23:55 AM »

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Where I'm from, they call this 'proof texting'.



Proof texting, 'cherry picking', declaring a half full glass of water as being half empty, making an argument where really none exists...like all the examples I gave, it really describes the person and not the alleged act the person is describing.
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« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2011, 11:04:05 AM »

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Where I'm from, they call this 'proof texting'.



Proof texting, 'cherry picking', declaring a half full glass of water as being half empty, making an argument where really none exists...like all the examples I gave, it really describes the person and not the alleged act the person is describing.

Both here and on the ByzCath board, Irish Melkite is one of the most even tempered and thoughtful posters on the net. His inherent patience and kindness towards all shows throughout his many posts and the comments directed against his post on this thread do confirm Fr. Chris' statement.
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« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2011, 11:05:15 AM »

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Oh, for Pete's sake.... Roll Eyes
or Petrine sake? Tongue
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« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2011, 11:33:04 AM »

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Posts like this one don't make it easy, Papist.
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« Reply #67 on: December 13, 2011, 01:01:13 PM »


JOE !!!!  Hey !!!!

Sorry..this is news to me.

Many years Joe...or Neil or Irish....whatever.... Love ya man !
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« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2011, 01:18:25 PM »

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Oh, for Pete's sake.... Roll Eyes
or Petrine sake? Tongue

LOL!  Cheesy
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« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2011, 04:09:49 AM »

Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  Embarrassed .  What was I thinking?  Huh

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  Shocked

Many years,

Neil      
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« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2011, 06:45:35 AM »

Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  Embarrassed .  What was I thinking?  Huh

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  Shocked

Many years,

Neil      

LOL  Wink
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« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2011, 07:28:30 AM »

Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  Embarrassed .  What was I thinking?  Huh

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  Shocked

Many years,

Neil      
Actually, by reading between the lines, I could sense your love and respect for your Cao Dai brethren.
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« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2011, 10:05:52 AM »

Cao Dai? As in Holy Cao?
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« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2011, 10:46:58 AM »

Cao Dai? As in Holy Cao?
More like Holy Dao:

Quote
Back in the 1920s, in Vietnam, a group of men holding a séance had an experience that led them to found a new religion. It's called Cao Dai, and it includes not only attempts to communicate with spirits but the controversial teaching that all religions share a common principle. Lucky Severson visited Southeast Asia recently and sent us this report.
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« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2011, 11:16:20 AM »

I still hand around CAF, but frankly, I do it at my own peril.  I'm hoping that this site will prove much better.
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« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2011, 11:35:15 AM »

Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  Embarrassed .  What was I thinking?  Huh

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  Shocked

Many years,

Neil      

Are you trying to love him into trusting and relaxing or are you putting him in his place here?...I can't quite tell.  I mean they say you are so good and loving so I am sure you'd not be making fun of Papist or doing anything to confirm his worst fears.

M.
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« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2011, 11:49:45 AM »

Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  Embarrassed .  What was I thinking?  Huh

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  Shocked

Many years,

Neil      

Are you trying to love him into trusting and relaxing or are you putting him in his place here?...I can't quite tell.  I mean they say you are so good and loving so I am sure you'd not be making fun of Papist or doing anything to confirm his worst fears.

M.
To the pure all things are pure. To the impure, nothing is pure.
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« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2011, 02:25:26 PM »

Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  Embarrassed .  What was I thinking?  Huh

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  Shocked

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.
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« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2011, 02:54:33 PM »

Quote from: Papist
Quote from: Irish Melkite
I do, however, have a profound love and respect for my Orthodox brethren
I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Chris,

You caught me  Embarrassed .  What was I thinking?  Huh

Thank goodness you didn't point out my failure to also say it of my Eastern Catholic, Oriental Catholic &  Orthodox, Maronite, Chaldean, Assyrian & ACOE, Old Believer, Old Calendrist, Molokan, Dukhobory, and PNCC brethren, to say nothing of my Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant brethren, my Amish, Mennonite, Moravian, and Bruderhoff brethren, my Jewish brethren, my Wiccan brethren, my Cao Dai brethren, and my brethren of the myriad other Churches and faiths. Obviously, I'll never again be able to hold my head up in any house of worship other than an Eastern Orthodox temple. What to do???

Scariest part of it all, ... I think you're serious  Shocked

Many years,

Neil      
Neil/Joe, I had enough interaction with you at CAF to know that your concern was not fairness, but favoring those in schism from your communion over angainst your brethren in the Latin Church.

Oh boy.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2011, 02:58:24 PM »

From "Communion and Intercommunion"  by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware:

“Eucharistic ecclesiology implies therefore, a threefold unity: Eucharistic unity, that is unity in the one loaf and the one cup of Holy Communion; Dogmatic unity, that is, unity in the one Faith; and Ecclesial unity, that is, unity in the bishop.

In which bishop do the Orthodox have unity?
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« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2011, 03:02:53 PM »

From "Communion and Intercommunion"  by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware:

“Eucharistic ecclesiology implies therefore, a threefold unity: Eucharistic unity, that is unity in the one loaf and the one cup of Holy Communion; Dogmatic unity, that is, unity in the one Faith; and Ecclesial unity, that is, unity in the bishop.

In which bishop do the Orthodox have unity?

Is this rhetorical? Oh and that ain't a self referencing rhetorical.
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« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2011, 03:07:25 PM »

From "Communion and Intercommunion"  by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware:

“Eucharistic ecclesiology implies therefore, a threefold unity: Eucharistic unity, that is unity in the one loaf and the one cup of Holy Communion; Dogmatic unity, that is, unity in the one Faith; and Ecclesial unity, that is, unity in the bishop.

In which bishop do the Orthodox have unity?

I can't speak for either Metropolitan Kallistos or Irish Hermit, but my guess (from the context) would be the local bishop for any given diocese, following the Ignatian teaching on the subject.
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« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2011, 03:16:12 PM »

I can't speak for either Metropolitan Kallistos or Irish Hermit, but my guess (from the context) would be the local bishop for any given diocese, following the Ignatian teaching on the subject.

Thanks for the reply. I don't see how that can be a principle of unity for the Church as a whole though. If "unity in the bishop" is, according to Met. Kallistos, a necessary condition of unity, in which bishop do Greeks and Russians, say, have unity?
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« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2011, 03:25:23 PM »

I can't speak for either Metropolitan Kallistos or Irish Hermit, but my guess (from the context) would be the local bishop for any given diocese, following the Ignatian teaching on the subject.

Thanks for the reply. I don't see how that can be a principle of unity for the Church as a whole though. If "unity in the bishop" is, according to Met. Kallistos, a necessary condition of unity, in which bishop do Greeks and Russians, say, have unity?

In their Bishops. The unity and complete (catholicity) of the faith is found exactly where Metropolitan Kallistos Ware says it is found.

He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?


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« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2011, 03:37:28 PM »

I can't speak for either Metropolitan Kallistos or Irish Hermit, but my guess (from the context) would be the local bishop for any given diocese, following the Ignatian teaching on the subject.

Thanks for the reply. I don't see how that can be a principle of unity for the Church as a whole though. If "unity in the bishop" is, according to Met. Kallistos, a necessary condition of unity, in which bishop do Greeks and Russians, say, have unity?
the ones commemorated at every DL in the Orthodox diptychs of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2011, 03:45:17 PM »

He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?
He's talking about a metaphorical bishop?
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« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2011, 03:54:23 PM »

He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?
He's talking about a metaphorical bishop?
I think its more of the canonical office of bishop.

PP
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« Reply #87 on: December 14, 2011, 04:23:56 PM »

He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?
He's talking about a metaphorical bishop?

I think you put the rhetorical in reverse.

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« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2011, 05:35:38 PM »

He says one cup and loaf, do we all use the exact same cup and loaf throughout the world throughout time in a pedestrian sense?
He's talking about a metaphorical bishop?
No, reality.

The Body is broken, but never divided.

The many chalice contain one blood.

The episcopate is one, each one holding the entirety for the whole.
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« Reply #89 on: December 14, 2011, 05:35:55 PM »

I nearly ended myself when I read the 2 posts made there , whilst eating my breakfast .

All I know is that I'm not learned enough to be able to sound like an encyclopedia robot.

oh well - I'm devastated Sad

Wow! It's so great to hear from you!  Thank you for attending Father Serge's funeral, he will be missed.  You attending the funeral was a great act of Christian charity, being there in spirit for all of us who couldn't be there in person, you represented us by going.  I imagine the journey was not an easy undertaking from Scotland to Ireland, boat trip, train or bus and back.  It is good to hear from you, please post here more often.

Irish Melkite, you were a great mod over there.  I always strove to tell the truth and in the end I got banned for something trivial.  I lasted longer than most.  Luckily we aren't so heavy handed here.  As a matter of fact the Greek Catholic posters that frequent here often add good conversation.  They gently stick up for their beliefs and for that respect is given.  At other forums, not oc.net, they push this orthodox in union with rome attitude and a host of other ill-favoured ideals.  As a former Greek Catholic I can personally tell you that in the real world Greek Catholics go to church, pray and go home.  The major consensus is not like what you would find in the EC section of another forum.  
For most Greek Catholics going to church is going to church.  They know who they are, our families fought hard when some what for Orthodoxy. The actual truth on the ground and not on the internet is that often Greek Catholics (Ruthenians for the sake of typing are Greek CAtholics too, not Byzantine Catholics) feel like second class citizens to the Latin Rite Catholics.  
Most of the lunatics are Roman Catholics who hate the Roman Catholic liturgy but like the Pope but like the Byzantine liturgies.  
They are the ones that over-justify their existence.  They are the ones that try to creep in pre-vatican 2 practices into the Greek CAtholic liturgies and services.  They are the ones on the internet making normal Greek Catholic church going folk look crazy.  They didn't come from families who in former times were forced by law to be Greek Catholic, it isn't part of their family history.  I have never met a cradle Greek Catholic that boasts that they are the true model of unity and being under the pope ended the schism.  For the most part the Greek Catholics online that I deal with are Roman Catholics with a complex.  The exceptions are Anhela, Neil, Deacon Lance, even Elijahmaria.  They know what they believe, they stick up for it and they don't get all offensive against the Orthodox.  They know that if you live outside of the NE,Mid Atlantic and say Chicago that most Orthodox have never met a Greek Catholic and understand that these Orthodox don't know about them and say things that aren't nice because they don't understand, like Jesus said on the coross, "Father forgive them for they do not know"
Truth be told the average Greek Catholic parish has many pros that an Orthodox parish doesn't have.  My parish and the Greek Catholic parish up the road have almost the same services.  Antiphons are different.  The former priest taught Orthodoxy straight up.  Being under the pope was an afterthought.  The people have been Greek Catholic for 400 years.  their connection to rome is merely praying for the pope in litanies.  This is how it is, and they have latinizations, sure.  But they were Orthodox at one point and forced into Rome.  They never concerned themselves with the Vatican too much.  They don't have parish councils that override the priest.  They don't have converts that shun their ethnic traditions, the very traditions that connect home life with the Faith ( ok, to a point they have Roman Catholics that get like this a bit).  
And I'm not going to knock them, yes they are in union with the pope.  It isn't their fault.  Most people don't even think about it, they just go to church.  And frankly they look at the Orthodox church that broke away from their church and think, man, I don't want to go through that parish council in fighting.  The priests are paid a decent salary and receive medical insurance.  You can't say that about every Orthodox parish and priest.
Now I would never go back to being Greek Catholic.  I am under the Patriarch of Constantinople.  I believe Orthodoxy is the fullness of the faith.  It is worth it and everything I go through to be Orthodox.  But I will never condemn someone for being Greek Catholic or staying Greek Catholic.  
Remember where I live, people will go back and forth between Greek CAtholicism and Orthodoxy.  Often marriages are interfaith and if the greek catholic priest makes them mad they'll go to the orthodox church until they decide to park it at the greek catholic church.  Is that right? No.  Am I God and the judge of mankind? No.  Like I said, the former Greek Catholic priest at my family's "Greek Catholic parish which was my parish until I joined my family's Orthodox Church was the kindest man ever.  He was as Orthodox as anyone, even though he was under the pope.  I miss him, he taught the faith, he cared, he was there for his people, he suffered greatly with his diabetes and never complained.  He was truly the father of his flock.  
This stuff never gets talked about online.  It always gets into some us versus them fight.  I am not advocating inter-communion but I am saying that we have learned to love one another and work together.  And Christ said, love one another and forgive, work together, strive for peace and goodwill towards mankind.
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