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Author Topic: The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!  (Read 22762 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #225 on: January 02, 2012, 03:44:33 PM »

I find it really funny that Irish Hermit threw in "remarriage" as one of the things he's making fun of you about, when it's the Orthodox Church that permits divorce and up to three marriages in the Church, not the Roman Catholics.  Roll Eyes



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« Reply #226 on: January 02, 2012, 04:18:31 PM »

While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.
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« Reply #227 on: January 02, 2012, 04:20:37 PM »

I find it really funny that Irish Hermit threw in "remarriage" as one of the things he's making fun of you about, when it's the Orthodox Church that permits divorce and up to three marriages in the Church, not the Roman Catholics.  Roll Eyes



I did not throw it in.  KShaft raised these issues, starting in message 199.
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J Michael
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« Reply #228 on: January 02, 2012, 04:23:07 PM »

While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?
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« Reply #229 on: January 02, 2012, 05:17:06 PM »

While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept?

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

The Orthodox understanding of a necessary evil....  laugh

"Conquest by Western Roman Catholic powers would likely mean forcible conversion to the Catholic faith, while conquest by the Muslim Ottoman Empire would mean second-class citizenship but would at least allow Orthodox Christians to retain their current religion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_of_two_evils_principle

So conquest by Muslims was seen as a lesser evil.
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« Reply #230 on: January 02, 2012, 05:29:47 PM »

While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

The concept of necessary evil is usually linked with the choice between two evils.  I am reluctant to say more since there may be Roman Catholics here who will prefer to address their Church's teaching.
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J Michael
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« Reply #231 on: January 02, 2012, 08:03:09 PM »

While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

The concept of necessary evil is usually linked with the choice between two evils.  I am reluctant to say more since there may be Roman Catholics here who will prefer to address their Church's teaching.

I appreciate your reluctance and willingness to defer to Roman Catholics on that teaching--if indeed there is an "official" teaching on "necessary" evil.  However, you haven't really answered either of my questions, of which I have another for you--If, God forbid, one is put in the position of having to choose between two evils, does that make one of them, probably the one chosen, "necessary", at least in the sense that I think we're talking about it here?  Or does it just make it the "lesser" of the two, which one has unfortunately been forced to choose?  I hope you see the distinction I'm trying to make  Wink.
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« Reply #232 on: January 02, 2012, 08:08:59 PM »

While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic
"?

I believe the Roman Catholic Church is credited with the establishment of the principle of the lesser of two evils.  The concept of necessary evil is a corollary.

Quote
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

I do not have anything bookmarked.
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« Reply #233 on: January 02, 2012, 08:12:10 PM »

While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept? 

Because I typically come across it and the attempt to explain its legitimacy in Roman Catholic works.

1.  Does that make it "Roman Catholic"?
2.  Can you cite some references or links?

The concept of necessary evil is usually linked with the choice between two evils.  I am reluctant to say more since there may be Roman Catholics here who will prefer to address their Church's teaching.

I appreciate your reluctance and willingness to defer to Roman Catholics on that teaching--if indeed there is an "official" teaching on "necessary" evil.  However, you haven't really answered either of my questions, of which I have another for you--If, God forbid, one is put in the position of having to choose between two evils, does that make one of them, probably the one chosen, "necessary", at least in the sense that I think we're talking about it here?  Or does it just make it the "lesser" of the two, which one has unfortunately been forced to choose?  I hope you see the distinction I'm trying to make  Wink.

Because I do not believe in necessary evil I am at a loss to answer. 
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« Reply #234 on: January 02, 2012, 08:17:32 PM »

I believe the Roman Catholic Church is credited with the establishment of the principle of the lesser of two evils

I think the concept was pretty firmly established in the undivided Church:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - Jn. 19:11

"It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said: Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40, 19

"Some members we can dispense with and yet live: without others life is an impossibility. Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him?' You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins." - St. Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 2, 30

"'But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints.' He has spoken of the bitter passion, of wrath; he now comes to the lesser evil: for that lust is the lesser evil, hear how Moses also in the law says, first, 'Thou shalt do no murder' (Ex. 20:13), which is the work of wrath, and then, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' (Ex. 20:14), which is of lust. For as 'bitterness,' and 'clamor,' and 'all malice,' and 'railing,' and the like, are the works of the passionate man, so likewise are 'fornication, uncleanness, covetousness,' those of the lustful; since avarice and sensuality spring from the same passion. But just as in the former case he took away 'clamor' as being the vehicle of 'anger,' so now does he 'filthy talking' and 'jesting' as being the vehicle of lust; for he proceeds, 'Nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting; but rather giving of thanks.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 17 on Ephesians

"Moreover, when he blames dissensions and schisms, which undoubtedly are evils, he immediately adds heresies likewise. Now, that which he subjoins to evil things, he of course confesses to be itself an evil; and all the greater, indeed, because he tells us that his belief of their schisms and dissensions was grounded on his knowledge that "there must be heresies also." For he shows us that it was owing to the prospect of the greater evil that he readily believed the existence of the lighter ones" - Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heresies, 5

"For we are not more perfect than David, who by a little carelessness was hurled into the very gulf of sin. Yet he arose again quickly. Look not then to his having sinned only, but also to his having washed away his sin. For to this end He wrote that history, not that thou shouldest behold him fallen, but admire him risen; to teach thee, when thou art fallen, how thou shouldest arise. Thus, as physicians choose out the most grievous diseases, and write them in their books, and teach their method of cure in similar cases; if so be men having practised on the greater, may easily master the less; even so God likewise hath brought forward the greatest of sins, that they also who offend in small things may find the cure of these easy, by means of the other: since if those admitted of healing, much more the less. ...in the case of Cain, what was done was not a murder only, but worse than even many murders; for it was not a stranger, but a brother, whom he slew; and a brother who had not done but suffered wrong; not after many murderers, but having first originated the horrid crime: so here too that which was perpetrated was not murder only. For it was no ordinary man that did it, but a prophet: and he slays not him that had done wrong, but him that had suffered wrong; for indeed he had been mortally wronged, by the forcing away his wife: nevertheless after that he added this also." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 26 on Matthew
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« Reply #235 on: January 02, 2012, 08:21:54 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.
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« Reply #236 on: January 02, 2012, 08:35:50 PM »

I believe the Roman Catholic Church is credited with the establishment of the principle of the lesser of two evils

I think the concept was pretty firmly established in the undivided Church:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - Jn. 19:11

"It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said: Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40, 19

"Some members we can dispense with and yet live: without others life is an impossibility. Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him?' You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins." - St. Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 2, 30

"'But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints.' He has spoken of the bitter passion, of wrath; he now comes to the lesser evil: for that lust is the lesser evil, hear how Moses also in the law says, first, 'Thou shalt do no murder' (Ex. 20:13), which is the work of wrath, and then, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' (Ex. 20:14), which is of lust. For as 'bitterness,' and 'clamor,' and 'all malice,' and 'railing,' and the like, are the works of the passionate man, so likewise are 'fornication, uncleanness, covetousness,' those of the lustful; since avarice and sensuality spring from the same passion. But just as in the former case he took away 'clamor' as being the vehicle of 'anger,' so now does he 'filthy talking' and 'jesting' as being the vehicle of lust; for he proceeds, 'Nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting; but rather giving of thanks.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 17 on Ephesians

"Moreover, when he blames dissensions and schisms, which undoubtedly are evils, he immediately adds heresies likewise. Now, that which he subjoins to evil things, he of course confesses to be itself an evil; and all the greater, indeed, because he tells us that his belief of their schisms and dissensions was grounded on his knowledge that "there must be heresies also." For he shows us that it was owing to the prospect of the greater evil that he readily believed the existence of the lighter ones" - Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heresies, 5

"For we are not more perfect than David, who by a little carelessness was hurled into the very gulf of sin. Yet he arose again quickly. Look not then to his having sinned only, but also to his having washed away his sin. For to this end He wrote that history, not that thou shouldest behold him fallen, but admire him risen; to teach thee, when thou art fallen, how thou shouldest arise. Thus, as physicians choose out the most grievous diseases, and write them in their books, and teach their method of cure in similar cases; if so be men having practised on the greater, may easily master the less; even so God likewise hath brought forward the greatest of sins, that they also who offend in small things may find the cure of these easy, by means of the other: since if those admitted of healing, much more the less. ...in the case of Cain, what was done was not a murder only, but worse than even many murders; for it was not a stranger, but a brother, whom he slew; and a brother who had not done but suffered wrong; not after many murderers, but having first originated the horrid crime: so here too that which was perpetrated was not murder only. For it was no ordinary man that did it, but a prophet: and he slays not him that had done wrong, but him that had suffered wrong; for indeed he had been mortally wronged, by the forcing away his wife: nevertheless after that he added this also." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 26 on Matthew

I'm afraid this is just too much for my football-besotted brain to take in at the moment  Grin Sad Grin.  I'm headed back to the Rose Bowl--Go Ducks  Grin Grin!!
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« Reply #237 on: January 02, 2012, 08:36:09 PM »

Eh, deleted. Don't want to scandalize anyone.
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« Reply #238 on: January 02, 2012, 08:40:27 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

I don't know, Father. That's certainly a tough one. I don't claim to understand with fullness the concept of lesser evils either (e.g., if it is the right thing, is it an evil anymore? isn't it then a good?).
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« Reply #239 on: January 02, 2012, 08:42:27 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Off topic, anyone?

What does that have to do with anything, and since when has any major prelate in either of our two churches said anything which remotely resembles it?

If you're asking about the RCC, you must have missed the many statements by the current Pope and his predecessor that homosexuals are called to celibacy. Only someone who was fishing very hard for a straw man argument because he couldn't prove his non-point would say otherwise.
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« Reply #240 on: January 02, 2012, 09:41:43 PM »


I know four Orthodox people who are primarily attracted to the same sex, two of which were given that sort of advice by their priests and one by his bishop.  I live in a part of the country that has an exceptionally high number of people who identify as gay, so I don't know if that has anything to do with the outlook of certain priests, as gay people are pretty much mainstreamed in my area.
 

I was thinking of experience in one of the home countries of Orthodoxy.

As we know Canon 6 of Saint Basil allows an established couple who are in fornication to continue and this was made a Canon of the Church at Trullo.  I have heard it said that the same leniency can be extended to permanent homosexual couples.   But the matter is above my paygrade.
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« Reply #241 on: January 02, 2012, 09:44:55 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Off topic, anyone?

The thread diverged into a variety of topics quite a while ago.

People make quite innocent peripheral comments and somebody picks up on it and it becomes a real sub thread.
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« Reply #242 on: January 02, 2012, 11:27:40 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

If a student is taking two classes one in Greek and the other in Latin, but he is failing both, is it the lesser of two evils for him to shoot his Greek teacher, who is more strict, rather than to shoot both teachers? If he shoots only one teacher, he might be able to pass the Latin course and avoid the pressure of constant studying in both courses, which he knows he would fail because of the heavy load. So would a clergyman give the advice that shooting only one teacher would be better, since it would  be the lesser of two evils?
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« Reply #243 on: January 03, 2012, 01:02:15 AM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

If a student is taking two classes one in Greek and the other in Latin, but he is failing both, is it the lesser of two evils for him to shoot his Greek teacher, who is more strict, rather than to shoot both teachers? If he shoots only one teacher, he might be able to pass the Latin course and avoid the pressure of constant studying in both courses, which he knows he would fail because of the heavy load. So would a clergyman give the advice that shooting only one teacher would be better, since it would  be the lesser of two evils?

Clearly, the lesser of two evils would always be to kill the Latin teacher instead of the Greek teacher, regardless of circumstance.
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« Reply #244 on: January 03, 2012, 01:10:27 AM »

It depends. Is the Greek teacher teaching Erasmian pronunciation? Though in that case, is shooting the Greek teacher really "evil"?
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« Reply #245 on: January 03, 2012, 01:26:06 AM »

It depends. Is the Greek teacher teaching Erasmian pronunciation? Though in that case, is shooting the Greek teacher really "evil"?

I did not consider this situation. Surely killing a Greek teacher who uses Erasmian pronunciation is no worse than killing a dog or a Turk.  laugh




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« Reply #246 on: January 03, 2012, 06:12:32 AM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

If a student is taking two classes one in Greek and the other in Latin, but he is failing both, is it the lesser of two evils for him to shoot his Greek teacher, who is more strict, rather than to shoot both teachers? If he shoots only one teacher, he might be able to pass the Latin course and avoid the pressure of constant studying in both courses, which he knows he would fail because of the heavy load. So would a clergyman give the advice that shooting only one teacher would be better, since it would  be the lesser of two evils?

I suppose by killing the Latin teacher over the Greek Teacher, you would be killing an already dead language compared to a living language !   Wink
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« Reply #247 on: January 03, 2012, 08:27:01 AM »

I believe the Roman Catholic Church is credited with the establishment of the principle of the lesser of two evils

I think the concept was pretty firmly established in the undivided Church:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - Jn. 19:11

"It is better both to attain the good and to keep the purification. But if it be impossible to do both it is surely better to be a little stained with your public affairs than to fall altogether short of grace; just as I think it better to undergo a slight punishment from father or master than to be put out of doors; and to be a little beamed upon than to be left in total darkness. And it is the part of wise men to choose, as in good things the greater and more perfect, so in evils the lesser and lighter. Wherefore do not overmuch dread the purification. For our success is always judged by comparison with our place in life by our just and merciful Judge; and often one who is in public life and has had small success has had a greater reward than one who in the enjoyment of liberty has not completely succeeded; as I think it more marvellous for a man to advance a little in fetters, than for one to run who is not carrying any weight; or to be only a little spattered in walking through mud, than to be perfectly clean when the road is clean. To give you a proof of what I have said: Rahab the harlot was justified by one thing alone, her hospitality, though she receives no praise for the rest of her conduct; and the Publican was exalted by one thing, his humility, though he received no testimony for anything else; so that you may learn not easily to despair concerning yourself." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 40, 19

"Some members we can dispense with and yet live: without others life is an impossibility. Some offences are light, some heavy. It is one thing to owe ten thousand talents, another to owe a farthing. We shall have to give account of the idle word no less than of adultery; but it is not the same thing to be put to the blush, and to be put upon the rack, to grow red in the face and to ensure lasting torment. Do you think I am merely expressing my own views? Hear what the Apostle John says: 'He who knows that his brother sinneth a sin not unto death, let him ask, and he shall give him life, even to him that sinneth not unto death. But he that hath sinned unto death, who shall pray for him?' You observe that if we entreat for smaller offences, we obtain pardon: if for greater ones, it is difficult to obtain our request: and that there is a great difference between sins." - St. Jerome, Against Jovinianus, 2, 30

"'But fornication, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints.' He has spoken of the bitter passion, of wrath; he now comes to the lesser evil: for that lust is the lesser evil, hear how Moses also in the law says, first, 'Thou shalt do no murder' (Ex. 20:13), which is the work of wrath, and then, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' (Ex. 20:14), which is of lust. For as 'bitterness,' and 'clamor,' and 'all malice,' and 'railing,' and the like, are the works of the passionate man, so likewise are 'fornication, uncleanness, covetousness,' those of the lustful; since avarice and sensuality spring from the same passion. But just as in the former case he took away 'clamor' as being the vehicle of 'anger,' so now does he 'filthy talking' and 'jesting' as being the vehicle of lust; for he proceeds, 'Nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting; but rather giving of thanks.'" - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 17 on Ephesians

"Moreover, when he blames dissensions and schisms, which undoubtedly are evils, he immediately adds heresies likewise. Now, that which he subjoins to evil things, he of course confesses to be itself an evil; and all the greater, indeed, because he tells us that his belief of their schisms and dissensions was grounded on his knowledge that "there must be heresies also." For he shows us that it was owing to the prospect of the greater evil that he readily believed the existence of the lighter ones" - Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heresies, 5

"For we are not more perfect than David, who by a little carelessness was hurled into the very gulf of sin. Yet he arose again quickly. Look not then to his having sinned only, but also to his having washed away his sin. For to this end He wrote that history, not that thou shouldest behold him fallen, but admire him risen; to teach thee, when thou art fallen, how thou shouldest arise. Thus, as physicians choose out the most grievous diseases, and write them in their books, and teach their method of cure in similar cases; if so be men having practised on the greater, may easily master the less; even so God likewise hath brought forward the greatest of sins, that they also who offend in small things may find the cure of these easy, by means of the other: since if those admitted of healing, much more the less. ...in the case of Cain, what was done was not a murder only, but worse than even many murders; for it was not a stranger, but a brother, whom he slew; and a brother who had not done but suffered wrong; not after many murderers, but having first originated the horrid crime: so here too that which was perpetrated was not murder only. For it was no ordinary man that did it, but a prophet: and he slays not him that had done wrong, but him that had suffered wrong; for indeed he had been mortally wronged, by the forcing away his wife: nevertheless after that he added this also." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 26 on Matthew

And then as we open ourselves to grace, there is this:

Saint Symeon the New Theologian, in his Hymn no. 44 reiterates this point in the following way:

"The Master is in no way envious of mortal men that they should appear equal to Him by divine grace, neither does He deem His servants unworthy to be like unto Him, but rather does He delight and rejoice to see us who were made men such as to become by grace what He is by nature. And He is so beneficent that He wills us to become even as He is. For if we be not as He is, exactly like unto Him in every way, how could we be united to Him? How could we dwell in Him, as He said, without being like unto Him, and how could He dwell in us, if we be not as He is?" (9)
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« Reply #248 on: January 03, 2012, 08:27:01 AM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

I don't know, Father. That's certainly a tough one. I don't claim to understand with fullness the concept of lesser evils either (e.g., if it is the right thing, is it an evil anymore? isn't it then a good?).

It is one thing to say that a sin is permissible...

It is quite something else to say that the guilt for that sin is mitigated by some circumstance or another...

One sin guilt that is not ever mitigated according to Catholic teaching is abortion.

Have you ever been turned over to your bishop for absolution?

I have.
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« Reply #249 on: January 03, 2012, 04:25:58 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.
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« Reply #250 on: January 03, 2012, 05:16:20 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Uhh....I hope you're not addressing this to Fr. Ambrose!!  Or is this the advice that you would gently and charitably offer someone in that situation  Roll Eyes?
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« Reply #251 on: January 03, 2012, 05:34:38 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

I cannot see that Fr Seraphim should be held up as a theologian (there is, people say, much that is wrong in his writings) but I am recommending him for his heroic struggle with his own sexuality.  He is similar to Saint Augustine whom the Orthodox would draw back from recommending as a theologian but will praise him for the repentance and piety found in his Confessions.  He is a model of repentance. Fr Seraphim offers a similar model of repentance for our sex-obsessed century.

He would provide a suitable intercessor for those struggling with same-sex attraction.  In this way, in his own spiritual and moral struggles he may provide more comfort for the people of our times than modern theologians.  We can love him and venerate him for this alone.



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« Reply #252 on: January 03, 2012, 06:52:32 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Dear KShaft,

I admire Fr Seraphim very much and believe that in his struggle to rein in the "objective disorder" of his soul and the "strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil" he has achieved a great measure of holiness and is an outstanding inspiration and model for others who struggle with the same disorder of same sex attraction. That is the crux of his sanctity.

But what you write is a little unrealistic and a little cruel.

In order to remove himself from temptation Fr Seraphim had to go to extraordinary lengths.   He took up residence on a remote mountain and then he tortured his body with such fierce ascetic practices that he died of ill health in his 40s.

Other men cannot do that.  They have to remain at their jobs, where every Christmas party brings alcohol and temptations.   They have to accept birthday invitations and visit pubs and restaurants and that brings more temptation.  They cannot engage in the merciless asceticism which Fr Seraphim did.

To say, let them imitate Fr Seraphim is not really possible.

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« Reply #253 on: January 03, 2012, 06:59:08 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Dear KShaft,

I admire Fr Seraphim very much and believe that in his struggle to rein in the "objective disorder" of his soul and the "strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil" he has achieved a great measure of holiness and is an outstanding inspiration and model for others who struggle with the same disorder of same sex attraction. That is the crux of his sanctity.

But what you write is a little unrealistic and a little cruel.

In order to remove himself from temptation Fr Seraphim had to go to extraordinary lengths.   He took up residence on a remote mountain and then he tortured his body with such fierce ascetic practices that he died of ill health in his 40s.

Other men cannot that.  They have to remain at their jobs, where every Christmas party brings alcohol and temptations.   They have to accept birthday invitations and visit pubs and restaurants and that brings more temptation.  They cannot engage in the merciless asceticism which Fr Seraphim did.

To say, let them imitate Fr Seraphim is not really possible.



Imagine that, thinking of homosexuals as people, instead of abstractions.
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« Reply #254 on: January 04, 2012, 02:18:13 AM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Dear KShaft,

I admire Fr Seraphim very much and believe that in his struggle to rein in the "objective disorder" of his soul and the "strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil" he has achieved a great measure of holiness and is an outstanding inspiration and model for others who struggle with the same disorder of same sex attraction. That is the crux of his sanctity.

But what you write is a little unrealistic and a little cruel.

In order to remove himself from temptation Fr Seraphim had to go to extraordinary lengths.   He took up residence on a remote mountain and then he tortured his body with such fierce ascetic practices that he died of ill health in his 40s.

Other men cannot do that.  They have to remain at their jobs, where every Christmas party brings alcohol and temptations.   They have to accept birthday invitations and visit pubs and restaurants and that brings more temptation.  They cannot engage in the merciless asceticism which Fr Seraphim did.

To say, let them imitate Fr Seraphim is not really possible.



 I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

 " Any one who puts ones hand to the plow and then looks back is not fit for the Kingdom of (Heaven)"
 " Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it." 

 I am myself fighting off such passions. Not homosexuality, but fornication and perversion in general.  When I was in Germany I went to a brothel at least once a week.  Now I have not been with a woman for nearly a year and a half. (Try telling your typical buddies that as something good!). I still sin with lust and other stuff, but those battles I went through to get to where I am now were horrible and I would burn to not call and would battle not calling for hours at a time. And the war goes on.  Being soft or saying "its okay" just enables the person. It isnt okay and making excuses for it doesn't help at all.  You need to make a decision not to do it period, avoid the occasions of sin when possible, understand you will fall,  learn from it, dont beat yourself up too hard(emphasis here is too hard) and battle harder. This isnt a new years resolution. This is your immortal soul. If you half ass it you will fail; period. If you arent willing to go through what Fr. Seraphim did, how can you claim to truly love our Lord? "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
You may not be able to do exactly as he did, but to the best of your ability and what is possible for a layman who has other responsibilities,  you will see results and the Holy Spirit working with you. He doesnt give you commands that are impossible, and that includes chastity no matter what your sexual orientation.
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« Reply #255 on: January 04, 2012, 02:30:02 AM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Uhh....I hope you're not addressing this to Fr. Ambrose!!  Or is this the advice that you would gently and charitably offer someone in that situation  Roll Eyes?

 Well I wasnt "saying" this to Fr. Ambrose as in "stop being gay Father!" but I was retorting the guy who would give such advice to the homosexual Orthodox man.

Charity is being honest and being there for someone. Gentle may have nothing to do with it. Gentle is letting an individual know their loved one has passed on. Charity with a heroin addict may involve locking him in a room and tying him to a bed. There's nothing gentle about it.
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« Reply #256 on: January 04, 2012, 02:41:25 AM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

I cannot see that Fr Seraphim should be held up as a theologian (there is, people say, much that is wrong in his writings) but I am recommending him for his heroic struggle with his own sexuality.  He is similar to Saint Augustine whom the Orthodox would draw back from recommending as a theologian but will praise him for the repentance and piety found in his Confessions.  He is a model of repentance. Fr Seraphim offers a similar model of repentance for our sex-obsessed century.

He would provide a suitable intercessor for those struggling with same-sex attraction.  In this way, in his own spiritual and moral struggles he may provide more comfort for the people of our times than modern theologians.  We can love him and venerate him for this alone.





Well yes I agree with all this Father.  His understanding of demonic forces/philosophies and how they manifest themselves in the modern world are a true weapon against those forces and philosophies. Even though the writings are simple, they are effective. Im not sure where he erred, but if its the toll houses for instance (which any literal interpretation of as opposed to allegorically I am thoroughly opposed to as it relies on gnosticism and takes away the judgment that belongs Christ and hands it to demons. Ridiculous.)I hope that he just used it metaphorically or allegorically and not as an actual phenomenon that happens after death.
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« Reply #257 on: January 04, 2012, 02:59:34 AM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?
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« Reply #258 on: January 04, 2012, 03:09:46 AM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

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« Reply #259 on: January 04, 2012, 05:33:23 AM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

My apologies.  I mistyped snd entered an incorrect number for the canon.  It is of course canon 26.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xii.html
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« Reply #260 on: January 04, 2012, 12:34:36 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Uhh....I hope you're not addressing this to Fr. Ambrose!!  Or is this the advice that you would gently and charitably offer someone in that situation  Roll Eyes?

 Well I wasnt "saying" this to Fr. Ambrose as in "stop being gay Father!" but I was retorting the guy who would give such advice to the homosexual Orthodox man.


Just checking  Wink.  The way you worded it could be interpreted that you were saying it "to" him.

Charity is being honest and being there for someone. Gentle may have nothing to do with it. Gentle is letting an individual know their loved one has passed on. Charity with a heroin addict may involve locking him in a room and tying him to a bed. There's nothing gentle about it.

Basically no argument with you there.  Not so sure, however, about the "tying him to a bed" part though  Shocked.
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« Reply #261 on: January 04, 2012, 12:56:43 PM »

If a man is a homosexual,  is it the lesser of two evils for him to have a permanent relationship with another man than be out on the streets and bars constantly seeking sexual partners?  I ask because I know this advice was given to a gay Orthodox man.

Dear Lord man! Do Like Fr. Seraphim Rose and stop screwing men all together and live an Orthodox way of life.

Uhh....I hope you're not addressing this to Fr. Ambrose!!  Or is this the advice that you would gently and charitably offer someone in that situation  Roll Eyes?

 Well I wasnt "saying" this to Fr. Ambrose as in "stop being gay Father!" but I was retorting the guy who would give such advice to the homosexual Orthodox man.


Just checking  Wink.  The way you worded it could be interpreted that you were saying it "to" him.

Charity is being honest and being there for someone. Gentle may have nothing to do with it. Gentle is letting an individual know their loved one has passed on. Charity with a heroin addict may involve locking him in a room and tying him to a bed. There's nothing gentle about it.

Basically no argument with you there.  Not so sure, however, about the "tying him to a bed" part though  Shocked.

Your mind is just in the gutter sir... lol ... I clearly meant that for his own protection so he doesnt attempt to fly out of a window or perhaps stab his 'captors'. Now if it was a Victoria Secret model on the other hand......
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« Reply #262 on: January 04, 2012, 01:01:42 PM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

My apologies.  I mistyped snd entered an incorrect number for the canon.  It is of course canon 26.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xii.html

Father I think that addresses a couple who fall into lust but have serious feelings about one another. Its saying it would be better to not be more involved with a girl you 'hooked up' with for a night, and go your separate ways (at least when considering a marriage partner)  but if you do develop serious feelings about her then you allow them to still see each other. I dont think that is at all condoning continued fornication, especially in the manner I was thinking of (a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners).
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« Reply #263 on: January 04, 2012, 03:52:54 PM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

My apologies.  I mistyped snd entered an incorrect number for the canon.  It is of course canon 26.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xii.html

Father I think that addresses a couple who fall into lust but have serious feelings about one another. Its saying it would be better to not be more involved with a girl you 'hooked up' with for a night, and go your separate ways (at least when considering a marriage partner)  but if you do develop serious feelings about her then you allow them to still see each other. I dont think that is at all condoning continued fornication, especially in the manner I was thinking of (a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners).

My interpretation of the canon was the one I was taught in Serbia.  We could try and check if it is the one taught in Greece. 

My imagination is not as active as yours and I never imagined it to apply to "a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners" but to serious long-term and as the canon says "passionate" lovers.
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« Reply #264 on: January 04, 2012, 04:58:34 PM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 26 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

My apologies.  I mistyped snd entered an incorrect number for the canon.  It is of course canon 26.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xvii.xii.html

Father I think that addresses a couple who fall into lust but have serious feelings about one another. Its saying it would be better to not be more involved with a girl you 'hooked up' with for a night, and go your separate ways (at least when considering a marriage partner)  but if you do develop serious feelings about her then you allow them to still see each other. I dont think that is at all condoning continued fornication, especially in the manner I was thinking of (a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners).

My interpretation of the canon was the one I was taught in Serbia.  We could try and check if it is the one taught in Greece.  

My imagination is not as active as yours and I never imagined it to apply to "a lustful guy or girl fornicating with multiple partners" but to serious long-term and as the canon says "passionate" lovers.

Oh no when you said they allow fornication thats what I thought you meant before looking at the canon. Thats why I thought it odd.
The canon states when dealing with the passionate couple to not separate them. It doesn't say to be consenting to fornication. Perhaps they cannot marry for whatever reason(I have heard of priests with mistresses only because they met after he was ordained and has children by her and they are pretty much a family without the official marriage ceremony) or they do not want them to marry others because they still love one another (because couples who fornicated before marriage are typically separated according to the canon) and would end up committing adultery(this being the 'something worse' they refer to).  I think this is what they are talking about but I could be way off base...

Do you know Fr. Dennis Pavichevich or his nephew Fr Aleksa Pavichevich? I believe Fr. Dennis went to a Serbian seminary but later went to SVS.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 05:01:51 PM by KShaft » Logged
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #265 on: January 04, 2012, 05:10:53 PM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

Huh??
Could you give us a link to where you read this?
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KShaft
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« Reply #266 on: January 04, 2012, 05:17:57 PM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

Huh??
Could you give us a link to where you read this?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #267 on: January 04, 2012, 05:28:13 PM »

Do you know Fr. Dennis Pavichevich or his nephew Fr Aleksa Pavichevich? I believe Fr. Dennis went to a Serbian seminary but later went to SVS.

No.  I think he was in Serbia a decade before me.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #268 on: January 04, 2012, 11:45:45 PM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

Huh??
Could you give us a link to where you read this?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm
Cool! Cool Thank you.
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KShaft
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« Reply #269 on: January 05, 2012, 02:25:50 AM »

I think making excuses for behavior that laid two cities to burn and that St. Paul himself would not allow one to enter into the Kingdom, is much more cruel.

Noone wishes to encourage immorality but, despite Saint Paul's warning that fornicators will not enter the Kingdom,  canon 6 of Saint Basil, taken into the universal Church at the Council of Trullo, permits fornicators to continue in fornication.

I do not pretend to understand this dichotomy but the fact is that it exists.  An example of serious pastoral economy?

If a presbyter has through ignorance contracted an illegal marriage, while he still retains the right to his place, as we have defined in the sacred canons, yet he must abstain from all sacerdotal work. For it is sufficient if to such an one indulgence is granted. For he is unfit to bless another who needs to take care of his own wounds, for blessing is the imparting of sanctification. But how can he impart this to another who does not possess it himself through a sin of ignorance? Neither then in public nor in private can he bless nor distribute to others the body of Christ, [nor perform any other ministry]; but being content with his seat of honour let him lament to the Lord that his sin of ignorance may be remitted. For it is manifest that the nefarious marriage must be dissolved, neither can the man have any intercourse with her on account of whom he is deprived of the execution of his priesthood.

Huh??
Could you give us a link to where you read this?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm
Cool! Cool Thank you.

NP!
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