The Old CAF Crowd Will Love This!

[Cavaradossi]

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.

Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.

Funny, most of the lay-people I know have treated my Catholic friends well. Again, perhaps that is because yiayias, despite their love of pews and organs (the musical kind), have a better grasp on reality than most.

[WetCatechumen]

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.

Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.

Funny, most of the lay-people I know have treated my Catholic friends well. Again, perhaps that is because yiayias, despite their love of pews and organs (the musical kind), have a better grasp on reality than most.

I'm sorry! I'm not saying I was treated poorly - but the moment when people find out I am Catholic, their distaste and disappointment in my being Catholic is evident at that moment simply by their tone of voice and facial expressions, but it is not as if they sneer at continually or treat me with disdain.

[Cavaradossi]

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.

Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.

Funny, most of the lay-people I know have treated my Catholic friends well. Again, perhaps that is because yiayias, despite their love of pews and organs (the musical kind), have a better grasp on reality than most.

I'm sorry! I'm not saying I was treated poorly - but the moment when people find out I am Catholic, their distaste and disappointment in my being Catholic is evident at that moment simply by their tone of voice and facial expressions, but it is not as if they sneer at continually or treat me with disdain.

It could just be that they don't really know what to say. They may not run into Catholic (or any other kind of) visitors very often. In my parish, we're currently working on welcoming visitors better, simply because it's not a situation that many of the parishioners are used to (as opposed to the priests, who have presumably talked to more visitors than any of the parishioners). I don't doubt your experiences, as I have encountered similar responses from all manner of groups when visiting as an outsider.

[podkarpatska]

^I wonder if this poor fellow even knows his picture rather predictably gets knocked around here like a ping pong ball when the going gets silly. And I seriously doubt, although I have no basis whatsoever to have this opinion, that in any way he fashions himself as the 'Pope of Rome  and successor to St. Peter', thereby filling a long vacant see as an Orthodox bishop. As previously stated, he is an Orthodox Bishop in Rome, in Italy ministering to the Orthodox Christians in his charge.

To some of our Roman Catholic apologists here I would remind them of two things: above all this is an Orthodox Christian forum and unlike the CAF you don't get banished from here into the never-never vaporous lands of the 'ethernet' worlds for self-identifying yourself as "Catholic", "Roman Catholic" or whatever. Nor do any of us who give you the courtesy of referring to you and your co-religionists as 'Catholics' or 'Roman Catholics' receive any moderations or warnings from our mods.

Let's face reality here. We both refer to, and believe that each's particular Church is the 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' in our theology and our practice. At the present time (newsflash!!!!! -stop the presses....this happened in 1054 AD after all!) the Orthodox do not believe your church to be that 'One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' and you don't believe that we are such. Wow! How many of us don't know that to the extent that we have to hammer it over and over again.

But we are taught that Orthodoxy is one, holy, catholic and apostolic.  

That lesson may not stick with many but it sticks with enough for the time being.  

Your lecture is not out of line of course but you keep repeating that we do not see you as one, holy, catholic and apostolic and that is simply not true.

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.

In that my comments were not directed at you, but others, I am sorry you took offense. As you are well aware, the Orthodox position is that the resumption of communion is the final step in reunion, not an interim one while the major eccesiological and doctrinal issues remain a point of disunion. Without a unity of faith, as expressed through doctrine which we can commonly proclaim, communion would be an empty gesture from our point of view. As to 'sneers', there are plenty from both extremes.

[elijahmaria]

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.

Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I yield!!!...You are correct.  I never meant to include priests at the altar doing what they must do.

I was thinking only of verbal responses from some laity and clergy that I've encountered on the Internet. 

Pardon...

M.

[elijahmaria]

In that my comments were not directed at you, but others, I am sorry you took offense. As you are well aware, the Orthodox position is that the resumption of communion is the final step in reunion, not an interim one while the major eccesiological and doctrinal issues remain a point of disunion. Without a unity of faith, as expressed through doctrine which we can commonly proclaim, communion would be an empty gesture from our point of view. As to 'sneers', there are plenty from both extremes.

Forgive me if I offended.  I am not offended by you!

I should not have reacted.  It was silly and a waste of energy...yours and Father Ambrose's

Please pardon.

M.

[the slave]

I'm truly appalled

Here we are approaching that great Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord God and Saviour [ even if it is 13 days apart for some of us  ] and I come on here and read

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

The Latin Church does indeed say that Orthodox Christians may approach for Communion BUT at the same time they are also reminded that they should abide by the wishes of their own Church .

I have never ever been sneered at in an Orthodox Church [ and I've been in more than one , including a Monastery ] but have always been permitted to Kiss the Cross and Receive Antidoron . I've been welcomed warmly and never been made to feel an outcast .

[podkarpatska]

I'm truly appalled

Here we are approaching that great Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord God and Saviour [ even if it is 13 days apart for some of us  ] and I come on here and read

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

The Latin Church does indeed say that Orthodox Christians may approach for Communion BUT at the same time they are also reminded that they should abide by the wishes of their own Church .

I have never ever been sneered at in an Orthodox Church [ and I've been in more than one , including a Monastery ] but have always been permitted to Kiss the Cross and Receive Antidoron . I've been welcomed warmly and never been made to feel an outcast .

Thank you for your reminder that during the next few weeks all of us who follow the practice of the Eastern Church -Orthodox and Greek Catholic alike- will welcome the birth of our Saviour by proclaiming the powerful words of the prophet: God is with us! S'nami Boh! Sometimes online it is difficult to remember that proclamation.

[elijahmaria]

I'm truly appalled

Here we are approaching that great Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord God and Saviour [ even if it is 13 days apart for some of us  ] and I come on here and read

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice.

The Latin Church does indeed say that Orthodox Christians may approach for Communion BUT at the same time they are also reminded that they should abide by the wishes of their own Church .

I have never ever been sneered at in an Orthodox Church [ and I've been in more than one , including a Monastery ] but have always been permitted to Kiss the Cross and Receive Antidoron . I've been welcomed warmly and never been made to feel an outcast .

I believe that mileage varies on the Internet, and forgive me for responding to those negative experiences at this time of year.

Also I am accustomed to the rebukes of my own eastern Catholic brothers...at any time of the year...for all kinds of reasons...some of them not even real.

Why do you think I spend most of my time with the Orthodox?

Merry Christmas!!

[Marc1152]

I was just sent this new You Tube by a rather extreme "Catholic" Group which speaks to this issue of who is inside the Church. They specifically mention the Orthodox so I thought I would share it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp0RT902D-4&feature=uploademail

[podkarpatska]

That group certainly finds itself 'outside' of the Church of Rome, but they sure ain't looking Eastward for guidance. I guess all faiths have their own problem children! 

[JR]

Our Orthodox Brethren are truly welcome to our table, and a few times an orthodox priest has done so, I presume they are Orthodox priests dressed all in black wearing beards.

I do attend Orthodox churches quite often, but I have never tried to take part, I just watch.

I do get some strange looks, but I think that is because they know I am not Greek and that is quite rare in the smaller churches.

I wish you all a merry and most Holy Christmas.

Shalom.

[J Michael]

Our Orthodox Brethren are truly welcome to our table, and a few times an orthodox priest has done so, I presume they are Orthodox priests dressed all in black wearing beards.

I do attend Orthodox churches quite often, but I have never tried to take part, I just watch.

I do get some strange looks, but I think that is because they know I am not Greek and that is quite rare in the smaller churches.

I wish you all a merry and most Holy Christmas.

Shalom.

Yes...A most blessed, merry, and Holy Christmas to you, too, and to *all* our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters everywhere.  May we be able, out of love and charity, to put aside our differences as we are about to welcome our Savior at His Nativity. 

[Irish Hermit]

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.

Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I yield!!!...You are correct.  I never meant to include priests at the altar doing what they must do.

I was thinking only of verbal responses from some laity and clergy that I've encountered on the Internet. 

Pardon...

M.

If I were out in the sleigh with Father Christmas I'd drop a bigf present down your chimbley.

[elijahmaria]

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.

Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I yield!!!...You are correct.  I never meant to include priests at the altar doing what they must do.

I was thinking only of verbal responses from some laity and clergy that I've encountered on the Internet. 

Pardon...

M.

If I were out in the sleigh with Father Christmas I'd drop a bigf present down your chimbley.

 

I luff presents!!

Thankee

[biro]

Our Orthodox Brethren are truly welcome to our table, and a few times an orthodox priest has done so, I presume they are Orthodox priests dressed all in black wearing beards.

I do attend Orthodox churches quite often, but I have never tried to take part, I just watch.

I do get some strange looks, but I think that is because they know I am not Greek and that is quite rare in the smaller churches.

I wish you all a merry and most Holy Christmas.

Shalom.

Yes...A most blessed, merry, and Holy Christmas to you, too, and to *all* our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters everywhere.  May we be able, out of love and charity, to put aside our differences as we are about to welcome our Savior at His Nativity. 

Amen and Amen. 

[KShaft]

I apologize in advance for revisiting the subject of CAF - but this couldn't pass without comment ...

The EC (remember, that's 'Eastern Catholic' these days - not 'Eastern Christi0anity' as it was in our time) forum Mod has posted some new guidelines there on charitable and civil debate.

In keeping with the rules here, I won't quote her post, but the essence is that posters should think of themselves as "robots". When someone objects to something they've posted, they should run it through a decision-making chart and, having discerned the appropriate factual and non-emotional response, they should post that with "encyclopedia-like neutrality".

The narrative text is followed by debate guidelines, several of which are pretty mundane. But, my definite favorite - in keeping with the narrative that precedes the guidelines - is ... 

"Remember: your goal is to sound like an encyclopedia robot."   

Why didn't I think of that in my day as mod over there? 

The place never ceases to amaze.

Many years,

Neil

"Abolition of Man" anyone? 

[Irish Hermit]

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year
to the Old CAF Crowd!

[KShaft]

I notice that you say you have a profound love and respect for your Eastern Orthodox bretheren. I also notice that you did not say the say about you Latin bretheren. Very interesting.

Oh, for Pete's sake....

Yeah that was my reaction too.

I would have just came out and said "screw the Latins". But I really like the orthodox(as much as they can be) Latins. So I wouldnt want to say that. Now those Franks who hijacked stuff, yeah, screw those guys. Popes were Orthodox up until they took over...

[KShaft]

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......

Under normal circumstances these are heretical or sinful. There can be no doubt.  Extreme cases may lead to understandable exceptions.

[Irish Hermit]

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......

Under normal circumstances these are heretical or sinful. There can be no doubt. 

There can be every doubt.  I would not continue as a member of a Church which blessed heresy and sin.  Who would?

[KShaft]

Any Catholic who converts to a Church that calls us heretics may go with God,

Do Catholics not see us as heretics?   When we allow divorce and a second sacramental marriages is that not heresy in your eyes, given its theological basis?

When we allow contraception is that not heresy in your eyes, both in its theological basis and an abomination in natural law?

Etc., etc......

Under normal circumstances these are heretical or sinful. There can be no doubt.  

There can be every doubt.  I would not continue as a member of a Church which blessed heresy and sin.  Who would?

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

[Irish Hermit]

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?

[KShaft]

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?

 What part of extreme circumstances do you not understand?  Homosexuality doesnt belong in there. Thats a perverted desire, that in even straight people can pop up. Acting on that desire is a sin. 

 Ill give you an example since you are having trouble reading between the lines.  When I was in Iraq I nearly had to shoot a guy because I thought he might have been reaching for a grenade or gun in his car. Since he didnt understand English or any way the word "Stop" or the escalation of volume in peoples voices indicating for you to stop whatever your doing in any language, he went for his ID card. I had my m249 pointing at his head finger on the trigger until he came back out of the car with his ID.  Okay now normally if I would have just shot him nilly willy, well thats a sin. I shoot him because he pulls out a grenade or gun, well that is justifiable homicide. In fact not to shoot him would be a sin because I could get myself or others killed.

If a man is beating his wife and she is in danger of being killed or is just incredibly abusive, divorce in this case is not a sin. Sad, but not a sin. Divorcing someone because she found a guy who is more attractive or has more money or whatever, well sir, that just might be a sin.

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians (who are easily the most Orthodox if you ask me) or say live and let live guys like Antiochians who say you dont even need to go to confession no matter what you do before going up for the Eucharist, and of course with them divorce and remarriage is fine.  Stuff like divorce was always a last resort. Contraception wasnt even questioned until modern times. Modernist priests now say it is okay. I dont know what else I need to say about it. This isnt about blessing sin, its about circumstance when something no longer is a sin because of the circumstance.

In the case of the marriage you do everything possible to save the marriage before you resort to the possibility of divorce. It is without a doubt a method of last resort and not to be desired.

Please stop the melodramatic outrage. Its annoying.

[Irish Hermit]

Please stop the melodramatic outrage. Its annoying.

To say that evil can be necessary and that God blesses evil is an attack on the holiness of the Almighty.

[Irish Hermit]

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians

KShaft, I am enjoying talking with you but the Russian Church permits divorce and remarriage.

Grounds for divorce in the Russian Church  

adultery and a new marriage of one of the parties
a spouse's falling away from Orthodoxy,
perversion,
impotence which had set in before marriage or was self-inflicted,
contraction of leprosy or syphilis,
prolonged disappearance,
conviction with disfranchisement,
encroachment on the life or health of the spouse,
love affair with a daughter in law,
profiting from marriage,
profiting by the spouse's indecencies,
incurable mental disease,
malevolent abandonment of the spouse,
chronic alcoholism or drug-addiction,
abortion without the husband's consent. 

See the 2000 Synodal document
"BASES OF THE SOCIAL CONCEPT
OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH"
http://3saints.com/ustav_mp_russ_english.html

[Cavaradossi]

Please stop the melodramatic outrage. Its annoying.

To say that evil can be necessary and that God blesses evil is an attack on the holiness of the Almighty.

Would you say that an action which could be evil under one circumstance is excusable (or even proper) under another? I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.

Also, do you happen to know why love affair with a daughter in law is listed separately from adultery on that list of reasons for divorce?  I've seen that before but always found it baffling.

[KShaft]

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians

KShaft, I am enjoying talking with you but the Russian Church permits divorce and remarriage.

Ill have to talk with my parish priest about that.  


"Divorce does not heal the diseased marriage but kills it. It is not a positive action or intervention. It is about dissolving the “mini-Church” that has been formed through the marriage relationship.[18] The Holy Scripture attributes divorce to the callousness of man.[19] This is seen as a fall and sin."

"According to Bishop Kallistos Ware divorce is an action of “economia” and “expression of compassion” of the Church toward sinful man. “Since Christ, according to the Matthaean account, allowed an exception to His general ruling about the indissolubility of marriage, the Orthodox Church also is willing to allow an exception”.  Once again it is not something regular but an "exception."

“then the bond that was originally considered indissoluble is already dissolved and the law can offer nothing to replace grace and can neither heal nor resurrect, nor say: ‘Stand up and go’” IOW the church doesnt really do the divorce, the actions of the individuals involved cease to be married."

"Nevertheless, the Orthodox Church sees divorce as a tragedy due to human weakness and sin."

taken from the orthodoxresearchinstitue.org

[Irish Hermit]

Would you say that an action which could be evil under one circumstance is excusable (or even proper) under another

Yes.   If you or I take a man down into the basement, tie him to a chair and then fill him with enough electricity to kill him that is evil.

When the State does the same in a prison it is not evil and it is blessed by the bishops.

[Irish Hermit]

I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.

Would someone say more on the concept of "necessary evil." I do not believe that this is a part of the Orthodox faith. Does it originate in some Western concept?

If war is a "NECESSARY" evil than the notion of moral freedom is quite absent and that sort of moral determinism which involves unavoidable sin and evil is a bit frightening. It entails a voluntary association with and a surrendering to the source of evil, the Devil. I doubt if there can be a patristic base for such a concept.

Orthodox bishops have always blessed the soldiers and their weapons before sending them out to make war. If this were an evil, whether necessary or unnecessary, could the ordained servants of the Most High participate in it and even bestow the Lord's blessing on it? Can God bless evil?

Are there any other "necessary evils"? What about abortion? euthanasia? Or is war the only "necessary evil" that we know? Can anything like a "necessary evil" have a valid place in moral theology?

[Irish Hermit]

Also, do you happen to know why love affair with a daughter in law is listed separately from adultery on that list of reasons for divorce?  I've seen that before but always found it baffling.

Sorry, I do not know the answer to that.  Maybe another forum member does?

[Irish Hermit]

“then the bond that was originally considered indissoluble is already dissolved and the law can offer nothing to replace grace and can neither heal nor resurrect, nor say: ‘Stand up and go’” IOW the church doesnt really do the divorce, the actions of the individuals involved cease to be married."

Just as the Church acting in the Name of God creates a marriage with the Crowning and Blessing by a priest so too the Church through a Bishop acts in the Name of God in dissolving a marriage and giving a divorce because nothing which the Church does is not in accordance with the Will of God.

Yes, the Church is acting, as you say,  pursuant to the tragedy of a loss of love between a man and a woman but until the Church decides to issue a divorce the man and woman remain married.   The divorce becomes actual only when the Church says so.  If the Church does not grant a divorce the couple remain, technically and in the eyes of the Church, married and neither of them may remarry.  Perhaps not an aspect which people often consider but it is reality nonetheless.

[Shiny]

I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.

Would someone say more on the concept of "necessary evil." I do not believe that this is a part of the Orthodox faith. Does it originate in some Western concept?

If war is a "NECESSARY" evil than the notion of moral freedom is quite absent and that sort of moral determinism which involves unavoidable sin and evil is a bit frightening. It entails a voluntary association with and a surrendering to the source of evil, the Devil. I doubt if there can be a patristic base for such a concept.

Orthodox bishops have always blessed the soldiers and their weapons before sending them out to make war. If this were an evil, whether necessary or unnecessary, could the ordained servants of the Most High participate in it and even bestow the Lord's blessing on it? Can God bless evil?

Are there any other "necessary evils"? What about abortion? euthanasia? Or is war the only "necessary evil" that we know? Can anything like a "necessary evil" have a valid place in moral theology?

Amen!! Bless Father!

[podkarpatska]

I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.

Would someone say more on the concept of "necessary evil." I do not believe that this is a part of the Orthodox faith. Does it originate in some Western concept?

If war is a "NECESSARY" evil than the notion of moral freedom is quite absent and that sort of moral determinism which involves unavoidable sin and evil is a bit frightening. It entails a voluntary association with and a surrendering to the source of evil, the Devil. I doubt if there can be a patristic base for such a concept.

Orthodox bishops have always blessed the soldiers and their weapons before sending them out to make war. If this were an evil, whether necessary or unnecessary, could the ordained servants of the Most High participate in it and even bestow the Lord's blessing on it? Can God bless evil?

Are there any other "necessary evils"? What about abortion? euthanasia? Or is war the only "necessary evil" that we know? Can anything like a "necessary evil" have a valid place in moral theology?

Well, I'll five it a go.  I agree that there are no 'necessary evils' as a categorical statement.

However - since we live in an imperfect realm in our earthly existence and we, as human beings, are imperfect at the present time, we are faced with choices in life and we all confront situations which are sometimes crystal clear in terms of our moral obligations and other times - certainly less than clear. Perhaps such situations may better be described as 'lessor evils'? (Perhaps 'evil' is the wrong word.) Being given the gift of free will we have to make choices. Kshaft chose not to shoot the Iragi - yet, in his example another soldier might have done do. Either action - holding a gun to an innocent man's head and filling him with terror as a result or shooting him - whether mortally or not - had its own set of moral consequences and imparted the lives of each of the actors.  I would argue that if both soldiers were Orthodox, each should be troubled by what occurred and each would need to reconcile these feelings with his priest. Sinful or not? I can not say - but the issue should be between the faithful and God - by means of the priest.

Evil is evil - however, moral choices have to be made by all of us as we confront evil in our lives. Some choices are easy as no alternative is presented. We need the teachings of our Church to guide us through the moral minefield life presents.

[elijahmaria]

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?

 What part of extreme circumstances do you not understand?  Homosexuality doesnt belong in there. Thats a perverted desire, that in even straight people can pop up. Acting on that desire is a sin. 

The problem that I find in Orthodoxy when talking about sin is that there is no distinction made between objective evils and sin guilt.  There are no mitigating circumstances that one can speak of in terms of things which, without those circumstances in place, are indeed evil.

Also I have never seen a good definition of evil from any Internet Orthodox venue.  That is not to say there is not one but there is not one that I have ever seen.

If it is evil it is sinful...black and white.

That results in the assertion that things proscribed by Christ are allowed by the Church and called "Good"...

I think that is not helpful in terms of a systematic moral theology...in other words, a coherent logic.

M.

[ialmisry]

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?

 What part of extreme circumstances do you not understand?  Homosexuality doesnt belong in there. Thats a perverted desire, that in even straight people can pop up. Acting on that desire is a sin. 

 Ill give you an example since you are having trouble reading between the lines.  When I was in Iraq I nearly had to shoot a guy because I thought he might have been reaching for a grenade or gun in his car. Since he didnt understand English or any way the word "Stop" or the escalation of volume in peoples voices indicating for you to stop whatever your doing in any language, he went for his ID card. I had my m249 pointing at his head finger on the trigger until he came back out of the car with his ID.  Okay now normally if I would have just shot him nilly willy, well thats a sin. I shoot him because he pulls out a grenade or gun, well that is justifiable homicide. In fact not to shoot him would be a sin because I could get myself or others killed.

If a man is beating his wife and she is in danger of being killed or is just incredibly abusive, divorce in this case is not a sin. Sad, but not a sin. Divorcing someone because she found a guy who is more attractive or has more money or whatever, well sir, that just might be a sin.

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians (who are easily the most Orthodox if you ask me) or say live and let live guys like Antiochians who say you dont even need to go to confession no matter what you do before going up for the Eucharist, and of course with them divorce and remarriage is fine. 

Not sure what you mean "divorce and remarriage is fine" for the Antiochians.  Earlier this decade the Archdiocese reaffirmed, for instance, that if a marriage involves a remarriage of one of the parties, the priest must first ascertain if the new proposed marriage is an affair during the old one, in which case no marriage can take place.

[KShaft]

You'll remember that you are welcomed to our chalice in a Church where there is no "open" chalice.

Rather than seeing that as a good thing, the offer is handed back...generally with a sneer and a reminder that we are not welcome at your chalice. So next time, please keep that in mind when you lecture about how we see one another.

Your exposure to Orthodoxy is horribly limited if it causes you to say such things.

Generally speaking the Orthodox are rather apologetic on the occasions when they have to tell Catholics that we do not commune any but Orthodox.

Priests having to say something to Catholics who unexpectedly present themselves at the chalice will usually say something along the lines of "We're not in communion. I'm sorry."  or "Our bishops are not in communion and we are not allowed lo be either."  It is NEVER done with a sneer.  You should not claim that!

I have never presented myself for communion at an Orthodox church. However, the distaste, when it is revealed I am Catholic, is obvious - from laypersons. Of the handful of Orthodox clergy I have met, none of them have made me feel as if I were unwelcome or demeaned.

I do admit, I have come up to kiss the chalice and receive a blessing (a practice which was taught to me at an OCA church the first time I visited, while I was a Roman Catholic catechumen). On occasion, I have come forward to kiss the chalice and the priest has attempted to commune me before I can tell him I am not Orthodox.

 Ive never had this experience EVER and Ive been to every Orthodox church nearly every Orthodox church around including the ROCOR and Serbian parish.  I think youre dealing with former evangelical converts who just cant seem to differentiate Catholic laity who love the ancient western Church, and Franks who turned the Church into a secular political arm, doing so sometimes deviating from Orthodoxy. All the while never admitting how moronic they were before for hating all the 'Roman' inventions such as the Eucharist and the other sacraments.

[KShaft]

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?

 What part of extreme circumstances do you not understand?  Homosexuality doesnt belong in there. Thats a perverted desire, that in even straight people can pop up. Acting on that desire is a sin. 

 Ill give you an example since you are having trouble reading between the lines.  When I was in Iraq I nearly had to shoot a guy because I thought he might have been reaching for a grenade or gun in his car. Since he didnt understand English or any way the word "Stop" or the escalation of volume in peoples voices indicating for you to stop whatever your doing in any language, he went for his ID card. I had my m249 pointing at his head finger on the trigger until he came back out of the car with his ID.  Okay now normally if I would have just shot him nilly willy, well thats a sin. I shoot him because he pulls out a grenade or gun, well that is justifiable homicide. In fact not to shoot him would be a sin because I could get myself or others killed.

If a man is beating his wife and she is in danger of being killed or is just incredibly abusive, divorce in this case is not a sin. Sad, but not a sin. Divorcing someone because she found a guy who is more attractive or has more money or whatever, well sir, that just might be a sin.

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians (who are easily the most Orthodox if you ask me) or say live and let live guys like Antiochians who say you dont even need to go to confession no matter what you do before going up for the Eucharist, and of course with them divorce and remarriage is fine. 

Not sure what you mean "divorce and remarriage is fine" for the Antiochians.  Earlier this decade the Archdiocese reaffirmed, for instance, that if a marriage involves a remarriage of one of the parties, the priest must first ascertain if the new proposed marriage is an affair during the old one, in which case no marriage can take place.

 Little scrutiny into divorce and remarriage would be what I meant.  Ive heard from many sources that the Antiochian parishes are quite liberal about many things including confession, the Eucharist, and divorce.  Perhaps these sources were incorrect. This isnt stuff Im typically overly concerned with as I always make sure I go to confession/ absolution before going up for the Chalice, and at the OCA parish I typically attend this is always available both during Vespers and during Hours before Liturgy. I know there are spots in the Bible that are not meant to be taken literally, but when Christ says something in a direct manner such as his quote on marriage one should think of it as something to be taken literally in most cases excepting extremes which was probably understood. He was I think answering the willy-nilly divorcing of persons over little things, which didnt happen (I would guess) in the more orthodox households anyway.

[J Michael]

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?

Considering the practice is nonuniform within even the church on divorce and remarriage with some saying its a no go like the Russians (who are easily the most Orthodox if you ask me) or say live and let live guys like Antiochians who say you dont even need to go to confession no matter what you do before going up for the Eucharist, and of course with them divorce and remarriage is fine. 

Your assertion, which I've highlighted in red, is pure...... nonsense!  Wherever did you come up with that??  I was in an Antiochian parish for over 4 years and neither of those attitudes was **ever** expressed.  Ever.  The Antiochians have plenty of other issues, but not those which you accuse them of here.  I think you'd better check your facts.

[Cavaradossi]

I'm not so sure what your disagreement with the phrase necessary evil is.

Would someone say more on the concept of "necessary evil." I do not believe that this is a part of the Orthodox faith. Does it originate in some Western concept?

If war is a "NECESSARY" evil than the notion of moral freedom is quite absent and that sort of moral determinism which involves unavoidable sin and evil is a bit frightening. It entails a voluntary association with and a surrendering to the source of evil, the Devil. I doubt if there can be a patristic base for such a concept.

Orthodox bishops have always blessed the soldiers and their weapons before sending them out to make war. If this were an evil, whether necessary or unnecessary, could the ordained servants of the Most High participate in it and even bestow the Lord's blessing on it? Can God bless evil?

Are there any other "necessary evils"? What about abortion? euthanasia? Or is war the only "necessary evil" that we know? Can anything like a "necessary evil" have a valid place in moral theology?

If I recall, St. John Chrysostom gives the example of slavery. If a man owns slaves, that is definitely not right (I think he calls it an abomination or some other strong word). Yet given the circumstance that he owns a slave, it might be better that he keep him under his care than liberate him into a life of destitute poverty. I this is more of a lesser of two evils concept, but it's definitely an example of a moral dilemma, where no choice is really right except in the sense that one will do the least harm.

[Justin Kissel]

If I recall, St. John Chrysostom gives the example of slavery. If a man owns slaves, that is definitely not right (I think he calls it an abomination or some other strong word). Yet given the circumstance that he owns a slave, it might be better that he keep him under his care than liberate him into a life of destitute poverty. I this is more of a lesser of two evils concept, but it's definitely an example of a moral dilemma, where no choice is really right except in the sense that one will do the least harm.

I think there's lots of support for the concept of lesser and greater evils in the Fathers. The question, I think, is whether we could call a sin necessary? I think possibly so, based partially on James 4:17: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." If we know it would be better to commit one sin so as to avoid a more serious or harmful sin*, then it is in some sense our moral duty--a necessary act, if we want to do the right thing--to commit the lesser sin. I think this is what Father is getting at, though, whether we can consider it necessary.

*For example, doing what Rahab did, and hide Joshua and his men so as to help them avoid capture, but lying and using deception while they hid.

[J Michael]

There is not a consensus as there is in Roman Catholicism under the magisterium, but it is generally understood that those things are not to be used as an everyday fix, more of a necessary evil so to speak. Your spiritual Father being your guide to such compromises due to man's tendency to sin. Its not cut and dried but don't think that its done flippantly either.

Ugh!   Necessary evil!   A weird Roman Catholic concept!   The Orthodox do, in their innocence, sometimes adopt these concepts.   God blessing sin and evil and proclaiming it as necessary?  Our bishops blessing necessary sin and evil? May it never happen!   Where's the exit door?

Got a list of necessary (permissable) evils?
Divorce?
Remarriage?
Contraception?
Homosexuality?

While I *think* I'm pretty much on the same page with you about most of this, why do you say that "necessary evil" is specifically a Roman Catholic concept?  I'm not trying to start a fight, just looking to fill another gap in my education.  Maybe I've come across this elsewhere and hadn't connected the concept with being Roman Catholic in origin.

[biro]

It isn't specifically Roman Catholic. It's a figure of speech. He just likes to be that way. 

[J Michael]

It isn't specifically Roman Catholic.

I hope you're right.

 

It's a figure of speech. He just likes to be that way. 

I hope you're wrong.

[biro]

I find it really funny that Irish Hermit threw in "remarriage" as one of the things he's making fun of you about, when it's the Orthodox Church that permits divorce and up to three marriages in the Church, not the Roman Catholics. 

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