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Author Topic: Russian nuclear submarine to be fitted with Orthodox chapel  (Read 3172 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2012, 05:57:34 PM »

There were saints who served in the military- St. George, for one. I know there are others.

St. Theodore Thyron, St. Demetrios, St. Eugene Rodionov, St. Basil Martysz, St. Sebastian, 40 Martyrs of Sebaste...
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« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2012, 06:00:46 PM »

Yep, thanks.  angel
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« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2012, 06:22:26 PM »

I know that there have been saints that have been in the military. But nuclear weapons are an indefensible evil. All Christians should pray for and pursue their abolition - among all nations. The only reason to have them is because "my neighbor has them and I fear my neighbor."

Call me a polyanna who loves rainbows and unicorn poop - I say that it isn't the church's job to accept the world the way it is, but it is the church's job to press for a world where humans lived under Godly precepts. And that would be a world free of nuclear weapons.
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« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2012, 06:28:51 PM »

Why nuclear bombs are worse than swords or spears? They are equally evil.
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« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2012, 06:35:45 PM »

Need you ask this question?

1. The scale of destruction.
2. Swords don't cause radiation sickness.
3. You can pull a sword back. You can't pull back a mushroom cloud.
4. A full-scale nuclear war would probably destroy all life on the planet bigger than a cockroach.

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« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2012, 06:35:53 PM »

The only thing I'm worried about is that the sound of people chanting may cause reverberations, unless the place is properly soundproofed. I heard submarine sailors have to be very quiet, because sonar can catch almost anything.

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« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2012, 06:36:33 PM »

Need you ask this question?

1. The scale of destruction.
2. Swords don't cause radiation sickness.
3. You can pull a sword back. You can't pull back a mushroom cloud.
4. A full-scale nuclear war would probably destroy all life on the planet bigger than a cockroach.



If you scare the bejeemony out of the enemy first, and they surrender, no need to worry about all those.
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« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2012, 06:36:48 PM »

I know that there have been saints that have been in the military. But nuclear weapons are an indefensible evil. All Christians should pray for and pursue their abolition - among all nations. The only reason to have them is because "my neighbor has them and I fear my neighbor."

Call me a polyanna who loves rainbows and unicorn poop - I say that it isn't the church's job to accept the world the way it is, but it is the church's job to press for a world where humans lived under Godly precepts. And that would be a world free of nuclear weapons.

The only reason to have a military is because your neighbor does.  If Sweden, somehow, became the only nation on the planet with a military, I doubt they'd keep it around.  There wouldn't be a point.  I mean, police carry around guns because there are dangerous criminals who also have weapons.  

Please explain to me how, if the Orthodox Church can ever accept a military existing, it cannot accept nuclear weapons existing?  They are weapons nor more or less than guns, swords, tanks, jet fighters, etc.  They just kill more people more quickly, but then again, so do machine guns when compared to old-school cavalry.

A world under Godly precepts, and one that the Church should - and I believe does - fight for, is one without warfare of any kind.  It doesn't matter if it is nuclear war or war with weapons from the turn of the twentieth century or war with weapons from the turn of the first century.  War is war.  Do you think that those people who die in war care whether they are killed by a sword, or a musket-ball, or a bullet, or a nuclear warhead?
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« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2012, 06:37:43 PM »

The only thing I'm worried about is that the sound of people chanting may cause reverberations, unless the place is properly soundproofed. I heard submarine sailors have to be very quiet, because sonar can catch almost anything.



Hmm...that's quite true.  I wonder if they've thought about the fact that it wouldn't just be the normal conversations and such going on, but a mass of people all saying the same thing in time.
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« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2012, 06:38:54 PM »

Well, let's hope they put in some good soundproofing. Or, they wait to have services until they come up to the surface for a while.  Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2012, 07:04:44 PM »

Need you ask this question?

1. The scale of destruction.
2. Swords don't cause radiation sickness.
3. You can pull a sword back. You can't pull back a mushroom cloud.
4. A full-scale nuclear war would probably destroy all life on the planet bigger than a cockroach.



Evidently you have not seen the results of a conventional war.  Death is death.  There is no glory in it, there is no beauty.  Nuclear weapons have not been used since the end of WWII for only one reason; massive retaliation.  Guaranteed death.  If you have a sword, it will not deter me from attacking you as I am probably more skillful with a sword than you are, and I have a pistol.  If you have a pistol, it will not deter me from attacking you since I may just be faster than you on the draw.  But if you have nuclear weapons, my death is assured.  It takes five full minutes for a submarine launched nuclear missile to hit this country.  It takes 15 minutes for an ICBM launched from Russia to hit us (and vice versa).  In that time, we (or they, if we fired first) would launch everthing we had.  There is no "winner".  There is nothing left to occupy or take.  Nuclear weapons in the hands of a legitimate state are not weapons of war, they are weapons of peace.  They are perhaps the most blessed of all weapons because they are the ones that are the least likely to be used.  But then again, maybe they should be used.  The cockroaches did not kill their Savior.
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« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2012, 08:12:16 PM »

Here is where the Orthodox could learn something from St. Augustine and Just War Theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

According to this theory, it is allowed for Christians to engage in war if the following conditions are met:

1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. there must be serious prospects of success;
4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons would violate precept #4. An argument could be made that this was not the case in 1945, but a nuclear retaliation today could not be justified.




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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2012, 08:13:23 PM »

We are not Catholics.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no Orthodox "Just war theory"
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« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2012, 10:16:21 PM »

Here is where the Orthodox could learn something from St. Augustine and Just War Theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

According to this theory, it is allowed for Christians to engage in war if the following conditions are met:

1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. there must be serious prospects of success;
4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons would violate precept #4. An argument could be made that this was not the case in 1945, but a nuclear retaliation today could not be justified.


1. I do not base my Theological Beliefs on Wikipedia.
2. I am not Roman Catholic and the Blessed Augustine was wrong on several things, hence him being "Blessed" and not a "St." in the Orthodox Church.
3. Your opinion of the evils are exactly that, YOUR opinion.  Nothing more.  You seem to have a really hard time getting through your head that the CERTAINTY of a retaliatory strike is what prevents the first strike.  Just as soon as someone with a brain full of unicorn poop manages to convince the bad guys that we would consider a retaliatory strike too evil to perform, there would be nothing to prevent them from making a first strike, along with all of its attached evils.  That is why pacifists are more detrimental to peace than the "rough men" that allow them the luxury of being pacifists. That is also why the human race is ultimately doomed.  We protect people like you even though it is far from our best interests to do so.
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« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2012, 11:09:20 PM »

Nuclear weapons have probably saved more lives in the last century than any technology with the possible exception of antibiotics.  WWII killed somewhere between 60-80 million people.  It involved every major military power on the planet and many of the minor powers as well. 

The major wars of the Cold war never saw these kind of casualties because you never had an instance of two major powers fighting one another (with the exception of China who fought the US and to a lesser extent the USSR at various times).

Conventional combat between the US and the Soviet Union would have been disastrous regardless of who won.
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« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2012, 11:13:43 PM »

Here is where the Orthodox could learn something from St. Augustine and Just War Theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

According to this theory, it is allowed for Christians to engage in war if the following conditions are met:

1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. there must be serious prospects of success;
4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons would violate precept #4. An argument could be made that this was not the case in 1945, but a nuclear retaliation today could not be justified.



2. I am not Roman Catholic and the Blessed Augustine was wrong on several things, hence him being "Blessed" and not a "St." in the Orthodox Church.


This is not actually a thing.  Him being called "Blessed" in no way detracts from him as a Saint.  In fact, it is quite correct to refer to him in writing as St. Augustine.  In fact, St. Photius called him "the divine Augustine"
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« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2012, 11:29:01 PM »

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« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2012, 01:18:19 AM »

...4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons would violate precept #4. An argument could be made that this was not the case in 1945, but a nuclear retaliation today could not be justified.
I agree. I don't see the justification for the use of nuclear weapons.
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« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2012, 01:21:37 AM »

@ JamesRottnek - The theory should be considered on its merits, not on who expounded it. The Catholic Church opposes abortion; so does the Orthodox Church. Does the fact that we disagree with Catholics on some of their teachings (mainly on ecclesiology) negate every single teaching they believe in? No.

@ Punch - 1. I provided the link to Wikipedia as an easy reference. If you have a better reference for Just War Theory, so much the better.

2. Last I checked, all pre-schism (1054) Western saints are recognized by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church has not picked nor chosen which saints which were universally recognized in the west before 1054 would be accepted in the east.

3. I'm not espousing pacifism! There is a time and place for Christians to defend the weak and defenseless. Nuclear weapons seem to be a rather obtuse way to do that; an analogy would be curing someone's cancer by pushing them into a vat of corrosive acid. A nuclear war would "produce disorders greater than the evil to be eliminated."

@ Vamvrat - You wrote: "Nuclear weapons have probably saved more lives in the last century than any technology with the possible exception of antibiotics." Um, okay...to date. But last I checked, both India and Pakistan both have nuclear weapons and are full of hotheads that probably believe that it is Allah or Shiva's will that their enemies be blasted. So we have yet to see how that will work out in the long run. Lord have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2012, 01:37:48 AM »

Eugenio, I am saying that the Orthodox Church has no tradition of a "just war theory" and consequently, while it might be an interesting theory, it has no effect on my morality or sense of morality.  What is moral and immoral is a question for Church Tradition, to be applied in light of a changing world.  There is no tradition of a "just war theory" in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2012, 02:07:02 AM »

@ JamesRottnek - The theory should be considered on its merits, not on who expounded it. The Catholic Church opposes abortion; so does the Orthodox Church. Does the fact that we disagree with Catholics on some of their teachings (mainly on ecclesiology) negate every single teaching they believe in? No.

@ Punch - 1. I provided the link to Wikipedia as an easy reference. If you have a better reference for Just War Theory, so much the better.

2. Last I checked, all pre-schism (1054) Western saints are recognized by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church has not picked nor chosen which saints which were universally recognized in the west before 1054 would be accepted in the east.

3. I'm not espousing pacifism! There is a time and place for Christians to defend the weak and defenseless. Nuclear weapons seem to be a rather obtuse way to do that; an analogy would be curing someone's cancer by pushing them into a vat of corrosive acid. A nuclear war would "produce disorders greater than the evil to be eliminated."

@ Vamvrat - You wrote: "Nuclear weapons have probably saved more lives in the last century than any technology with the possible exception of antibiotics." Um, okay...to date. But last I checked, both India and Pakistan both have nuclear weapons and are full of hotheads that probably believe that it is Allah or Shiva's will that their enemies be blasted. So we have yet to see how that will work out in the long run. Lord have mercy on us all.

Yes, nuclear weapons "could" potentially cause lots and lots of death and destruction.  But historically they have only been used twice in war, and they killed far less than conventional means would have.  In fact, as far as just war goes, when you have access to neutron bombs, any conventional war that uses more than a brigade or two of troops should be considered unjust. 
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« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2012, 09:25:09 AM »

The bottom line in this discussion seems to be that Nationalism trumps the Church.  That somehow it is ok for two brothers in faith to be justified in being on opposites sides of war is disheartening to hear.  It does sound like national interests is of greater importance than the faith...except for clergy/monks of course since IIRC they are forbidden to engage in killing.  At some point Nationalism becomes Idolatry and I don't think the line is as far away as some think.  I have a tough time communicating this at the Southern Baptist Church I attend.

I served in the USMC during the cold war (mid 80/s)~~viewed a Soviet warship up close and personal during an operation in Cuba once...and at the time I was something of your typical jarhead American patriot...I probably own more guns/ammo than most here so I'm not your imagined pacifist construct....

Yet today I have different perspectives on this and would tend more toward the path of the priests & monks & Amish & Mennonite folks, particularly regarding involvement in governments' wars.  I'll admit to being something of a hypocrite in that if I'm in a position to defend an innocent or family member from danger I will use force as a last resort~~but to be a pawn of a government in their machinations is something else altogether. The priests & monks show us a better way and though not ordained or tonsured it is an available way to walk for the rest of us, isn't it?

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« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2012, 10:44:15 AM »

Yes, Mr. Jim, one of my great concerns here is that nationalism trumps the church, as you so aptly put it.

Like you, I am not too young to remember the Cold War. I Thank God Russia and the U.S. no longer point nukes at each other. But I also know it would probably take about 30 minutes to change that. So when I see a picture of a Russian priest blessing a nuclear submarine I can't help but think "could those nukes be pointed at my city someday?" The fact that the Patriarch of Moscow is constantly shown in support of Putin & crew does not help allay these fears.

I appreciate your service to our country, Mr. Jim. I tried to join the U.S. military at the end of the Cold War, but was kept out because of a medical condition. I have the utmost respect for our armed forces, and I see the need to maintain them. But similar to what you said, I think it is also the church's job to point out an alternative to the sword - even while ministering to all fallen humans in need of the church - be they soldiers, prisoners, students, businesspeople, etc.
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