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Author Topic: Russian nuclear submarine to be fitted with Orthodox chapel  (Read 3180 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 07, 2011, 09:51:39 PM »

The nuclear submarine 'Alexander Nevsky' will have an Orthodox Christian chapel installed in it. The Russian vessel is currently undergoing sea trials, and the chapel will be built when this process is complete.

From the article:
Quote
It was donated to the vessel’s crew by the Omophor Fund (omophorion), which brings together both able-bodied and war-wounded veterans who spent their lives serving their motherland and who are continuing that service in the field of social and church charity.
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 10:15:43 PM »

 see the Glory of the Lord! this is a beautiful thing! someone will get to pray this psalm in certain literality.

Psalm 130

1Out of the depths I have cried to thee, O Lord:

2 Lord, hear my voice. Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication.

3 If thou, O Lord, wilt mark iniquities: Lord, who shall stand it.

4 For with thee there is merciful forgiveness: and by reason of thy law, I have waited for thee, O Lord. My soul hath relied on his word:

5 my soul hath hoped in the Lord.

6 From the morning watch even until night, let Israel hope in the Lord.

7 Because with the Lord there is mercy: and with him plentiful redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 10:44:44 PM »

That's awesome about their military's restoration of clergy. Soldiers need access to priests.
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 11:07:07 PM »

How cool!!!
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 05:19:07 AM »

That's awesome about their military's restoration of clergy. Soldiers need access to priests.

To priests with no military privileges.
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 02:13:42 PM »

Praise be to God.  The Church is now not only in Antartica and Space, but even in the depths of the Sea. 
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 03:03:15 PM »

I would assume that incense might be a problem; heck even candles.
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 03:27:54 PM »

see the Glory of the Lord! this is a beautiful thing! someone will get to pray this psalm in certain literality.

Psalm 130

1Out of the depths I have cried to thee, O Lord:

2 Lord, hear my voice. Let thy ears be attentive to the voice of my supplication.

3 If thou, O Lord, wilt mark iniquities: Lord, who shall stand it.

4 For with thee there is merciful forgiveness: and by reason of thy law, I have waited for thee, O Lord. My soul hath relied on his word:

5 my soul hath hoped in the Lord.

6 From the morning watch even until night, let Israel hope in the Lord.

7 Because with the Lord there is mercy: and with him plentiful redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.



haha...how true! angel
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2011, 03:30:40 PM »

I would assume that incense might be a problem; heck even candles.

Electric candles and incense scented air freshener.
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2011, 10:04:56 PM »

Are these nuclear submarines warships? Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2011, 10:18:12 PM »

Whoever wrote that lame title to the article deserves to be fired.

Great story, though!
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« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2011, 10:20:37 PM »

Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship?
I'm sure you could find Orthodox clergymen who would have a problem with it and some who wouldn't mind it at all.


Quote
I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

There isn't an official EO position on it.
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« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2011, 11:11:27 PM »

I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

Those on board and elsewhere need the prayer as much as anyone else. I mean if the priest was invoking God's blessing on the vessel's destructive power, or praying against state enemies while in battle, I think that many would find such a chapel objectionable. But that's likely not what this is. It's probably just to minister to the crew. Imagine still being able to receive the Mysteries regularly while on a tour of duty.
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« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2011, 03:29:45 AM »

"we all live in an orthodox submarine...."
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« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 08:09:52 AM »

"I'd like to be...
 Under the sea... "  laugh
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« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 09:31:58 AM »

Are these nuclear submarines warships? Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

Contrary to what has been written above, I believe that there is an official EO position on the matter, at least in the Moscow Patriarchate (with more members than nearly all the others combined).  The ship would not have been blessed to have a chapel without the Church's approval.  Also, a Russian nuclear submarine recently sailed under the polar ice cap with a Russian Orthodox Bishop on board.  Russian Orthodox Chaplains are assigned to many military units, and I have photographs of Orthodox priests conducting Liturgy in the field with these men, and even blessing their weapons.  We pray for our armed forces and their success against their enemies at every Liturgy.  How would a Chapel on a Submarine be in any way inconsistent with any of this?  Assigning a Priest to the crew of a Submarine is no different than assigning one to an Infantry unit or a Tank unit.  And since the submarine is a "structure" of sorts, why would one not have a chapel for worship if a Priest (or even a Bishop as in at least one case) is on board?

Your question is a good one.  I think that if you look more deeply into it, you will find that even the Americans have chaplains on warships, many of them Roman Catholic.  In that regard, I do not believe that the EO position is much different than the RC or any of the mainline Protestant denominations.  However, there being a separation between Church and State in the US, and with the move to erase anything religious from any public institution, I would doubt that the US would go through the effort of putting a chapel on any new warships.  However, I would bet that the larger ships such as aircraft carriers have purpose built chapels in them, and I would be pleasantly surprised if others had them, too.
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« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 10:43:31 AM »

Are these nuclear submarines warships? Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

Why would they? Submarine tours can be very lengthy, and sailors need access to the Mysteries as much as all of us. I would be somewhat surprised if clergy had a problem with this.

The Russian Church also makes churches available for soldiers in the field.



http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/05/russian-paratroopers-receive-chapel-on.html
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« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 04:24:55 PM »

Are these nuclear submarines warships? Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

Some members of the Orthodox Peace Fellowship, for example, might, but the clergy are there to help the soldiers. Who says soldiers do not merit spiritual support? They are doing a difficult job defending the country and need ministration.
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« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 04:26:45 PM »

Are these nuclear submarines warships? Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

Why would they? Submarine tours can be very lengthy, and sailors need access to the Mysteries as much as all of us. I would be somewhat surprised if clergy had a problem with this.

The Russian Church also makes churches available for soldiers in the field.



http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/05/russian-paratroopers-receive-chapel-on.html

That's, like, a wellspring of awesomeness.
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« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 04:44:39 PM »

Are these nuclear submarines warships? Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

Why would they? Submarine tours can be very lengthy, and sailors need access to the Mysteries as much as all of us. I would be somewhat surprised if clergy had a problem with this.

The Russian Church also makes churches available for soldiers in the field.



http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/05/russian-paratroopers-receive-chapel-on.html

Wow!
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« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 04:48:45 PM »

Are these nuclear submarines warships? Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

Why would they? Submarine tours can be very lengthy, and sailors need access to the Mysteries as much as all of us. I would be somewhat surprised if clergy had a problem with this.

The Russian Church also makes churches available for soldiers in the field.



http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/05/russian-paratroopers-receive-chapel-on.html
Probably the coolest thig that I have seen all week.
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 04:49:45 PM »

Battlechurch!
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2011, 04:51:46 PM »

Are these nuclear submarines warships? Would any Orthodox Clergy have a problem with a chapel on a warship? I'm not criticizing, just trying to understand the EO position on this kind of thing.

Why would they? Submarine tours can be very lengthy, and sailors need access to the Mysteries as much as all of us. I would be somewhat surprised if clergy had a problem with this.

The Russian Church also makes churches available for soldiers in the field.



http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/05/russian-paratroopers-receive-chapel-on.html

The Church Millitant!  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2011, 05:33:42 PM »

Can it be driven, or did they take off the tires?
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2011, 05:41:42 PM »

ALL YOUR ORTHODOX ARE BELONG TO US
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2011, 05:49:54 PM »

Onward Christian soldiers!   Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2011, 06:10:37 PM »

ALL YOUR ORTHODOX ARE BELONG TO US

Post of the Month!!  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2011, 08:11:07 PM »

Does Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38/39 refer to Russia leading the Ishamel gang in the coming war against Israel?
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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2011, 01:33:27 PM »

Does Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38/39 refer to Russia leading the Ishamel gang in the coming war against Israel?

Only if you're an Evangelical Zionist Protestant.
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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2011, 03:41:25 PM »

Does Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38/39 refer to Russia leading the Ishamel gang in the coming war against Israel?

Nope.
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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2011, 04:38:55 PM »

The Church Millitant!  Grin

Nicely done.  Cheesy

Can it be driven, or did they take off the tires?

I don't know for sure, but I would think it's mobile. There are the popouts on the sides, much like RV's and campers have, so it probably folds up and otherwise looks like a standard military truck.
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« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2012, 03:20:05 PM »

So when are the Russians going to have a Liturgy in the ISS?
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« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2012, 04:40:25 PM »

The Church Millitant!  Grin

Nicely done.  Cheesy

Can it be driven, or did they take off the tires?

I don't know for sure, but I would think it's mobile. There are the popouts on the sides, much like RV's and campers have, so it probably folds up and otherwise looks like a standard military truck.

Maybe we should get a few of those for the US.  Have monks, at least one of them a priest, go out two by two delivering liturgy to rural America.
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« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2012, 04:40:36 PM »

So when are the Russians going to have a Liturgy in the ISS?

That would be wicked awesome.
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« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2012, 10:01:40 PM »

St. Alexandar Nevski, Is My Slava and My Brothers [Patron Saint ] ...I don't  Know What To Think ,Having A Nuclear Sub.Named After Him  Huh......I'm All For The Chapel Though........ police
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« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2012, 03:28:53 AM »

I wonder how they're gonna do liturgy in ISS...
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« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2012, 03:56:08 AM »

So many things wrong with this in my opinion. I cannot share in the enthusiasm. Why not have Orthodox chapels in brothels and abortion clinics? Does Jesus not love harlots as much as soldiers? How can the Ark of salvation dwell within the belly of a ship of destruction?


"What communion hath light with darkness?" [II Corinthians 6:14]



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« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2012, 04:28:29 AM »

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How can the Holy Spirit dwell in the heart of sinful people like you and  me, Gebre?  police
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« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2012, 04:50:57 AM »

Quote
How can the Ark of salvation dwell within the belly of a ship of destruction?

How can the Holy Spirit dwell in the heart of sinful people like you and  me, Gebre?  police



I do not know brother, but we have a divine promise that such a glorious mystery can and does occur. However, we do not have a divine promise that God will bless our participation in the facilitation of instruments of mass destruction.


Selam
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« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2012, 11:18:51 AM »

I don't know about you, but I would guess that the prayers of those under the sea asking for guidance and to be shown the will of God would be pleasing to Him.  I feel far more secure knowing that there are nuclear submarines out there with Orthodox churches aboard than I do with all of those under the sea in the service of greedy corporate pigs. 


So many things wrong with this in my opinion. I cannot share in the enthusiasm. Why not have Orthodox chapels in brothels and abortion clinics? Does Jesus not love harlots as much as soldiers? How can the Ark of salvation dwell within the belly of a ship of destruction?


"What communion hath light with darkness?" [II Corinthians 6:14]



"Lord have mercy."



Selam
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« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2012, 12:06:13 PM »

I don't know about you, but I would guess that the prayers of those under the sea asking for guidance and to be shown the will of God would be pleasing to Him.  I feel far more secure knowing that there are nuclear submarines out there with Orthodox churches aboard than I do with all of those under the sea in the service of greedy corporate pigs. 


So many things wrong with this in my opinion. I cannot share in the enthusiasm. Why not have Orthodox chapels in brothels and abortion clinics? Does Jesus not love harlots as much as soldiers? How can the Ark of salvation dwell within the belly of a ship of destruction?


"What communion hath light with darkness?" [II Corinthians 6:14]



"Lord have mercy."



Selam

Since there have to be such ships in our times, I do agree with Punch.

Let us pray that through the intercession of St. Nicholas the Patron of Sailors at sea , the Theotokas and St. Alexander Nevsky that the full capacity of this vessel never need be utilized. Lord, have mercy.
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« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2012, 04:51:49 PM »

Are there nuclear warheads on this submarine? Because um, in my estimation, that's pretty incompatible with a chapel. No matter whose flag is flying up on deck.
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« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2012, 04:58:22 PM »

Are there nuclear warheads on this submarine? Because um, in my estimation, that's pretty incompatible with a chapel. No matter whose flag is flying up on deck.

How is it any more incompatible with an Orthodox chapel than having one on an infantry base?  Nuclear war heads can kill people.  Tanks can kill people.  Infantry can kill people.  The only thing different is the number one war head can kill, versus the number one tank can kill, versus the number one person can kill.  If we accept an Orthodox person can be in the military, we accept that an Orthodox person can be on a submarine that has the power to kill mass numbers of people.  And the Orthodox Church has been very clear that it does accept soldiers as Christians.
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« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2012, 05:01:07 PM »

There were saints who served in the military- St. George, for one. I know there are others.
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« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2012, 05:50:18 PM »

Are there nuclear warheads on this submarine? Because um, in my estimation, that's pretty incompatible with a chapel. No matter whose flag is flying up on deck.

No, they intend to provide a deterrent using rainbows and unicorn poop.  Hostile nations that may be armed with nuclear weapons are afraid of that stuff, you know.
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« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2012, 05:57:34 PM »

There were saints who served in the military- St. George, for one. I know there are others.

St. Theodore Thyron, St. Demetrios, St. Eugene Rodionov, St. Basil Martysz, St. Sebastian, 40 Martyrs of Sebaste...
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« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2012, 06:00:46 PM »

Yep, thanks.  angel
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« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2012, 06:22:26 PM »

I know that there have been saints that have been in the military. But nuclear weapons are an indefensible evil. All Christians should pray for and pursue their abolition - among all nations. The only reason to have them is because "my neighbor has them and I fear my neighbor."

Call me a polyanna who loves rainbows and unicorn poop - I say that it isn't the church's job to accept the world the way it is, but it is the church's job to press for a world where humans lived under Godly precepts. And that would be a world free of nuclear weapons.
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« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2012, 06:28:51 PM »

Why nuclear bombs are worse than swords or spears? They are equally evil.
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« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2012, 06:35:45 PM »

Need you ask this question?

1. The scale of destruction.
2. Swords don't cause radiation sickness.
3. You can pull a sword back. You can't pull back a mushroom cloud.
4. A full-scale nuclear war would probably destroy all life on the planet bigger than a cockroach.

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« Reply #50 on: February 04, 2012, 06:35:53 PM »

The only thing I'm worried about is that the sound of people chanting may cause reverberations, unless the place is properly soundproofed. I heard submarine sailors have to be very quiet, because sonar can catch almost anything.

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« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2012, 06:36:33 PM »

Need you ask this question?

1. The scale of destruction.
2. Swords don't cause radiation sickness.
3. You can pull a sword back. You can't pull back a mushroom cloud.
4. A full-scale nuclear war would probably destroy all life on the planet bigger than a cockroach.



If you scare the bejeemony out of the enemy first, and they surrender, no need to worry about all those.
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« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2012, 06:36:48 PM »

I know that there have been saints that have been in the military. But nuclear weapons are an indefensible evil. All Christians should pray for and pursue their abolition - among all nations. The only reason to have them is because "my neighbor has them and I fear my neighbor."

Call me a polyanna who loves rainbows and unicorn poop - I say that it isn't the church's job to accept the world the way it is, but it is the church's job to press for a world where humans lived under Godly precepts. And that would be a world free of nuclear weapons.

The only reason to have a military is because your neighbor does.  If Sweden, somehow, became the only nation on the planet with a military, I doubt they'd keep it around.  There wouldn't be a point.  I mean, police carry around guns because there are dangerous criminals who also have weapons.  

Please explain to me how, if the Orthodox Church can ever accept a military existing, it cannot accept nuclear weapons existing?  They are weapons nor more or less than guns, swords, tanks, jet fighters, etc.  They just kill more people more quickly, but then again, so do machine guns when compared to old-school cavalry.

A world under Godly precepts, and one that the Church should - and I believe does - fight for, is one without warfare of any kind.  It doesn't matter if it is nuclear war or war with weapons from the turn of the twentieth century or war with weapons from the turn of the first century.  War is war.  Do you think that those people who die in war care whether they are killed by a sword, or a musket-ball, or a bullet, or a nuclear warhead?
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« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2012, 06:37:43 PM »

The only thing I'm worried about is that the sound of people chanting may cause reverberations, unless the place is properly soundproofed. I heard submarine sailors have to be very quiet, because sonar can catch almost anything.



Hmm...that's quite true.  I wonder if they've thought about the fact that it wouldn't just be the normal conversations and such going on, but a mass of people all saying the same thing in time.
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« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2012, 06:38:54 PM »

Well, let's hope they put in some good soundproofing. Or, they wait to have services until they come up to the surface for a while.  Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2012, 07:04:44 PM »

Need you ask this question?

1. The scale of destruction.
2. Swords don't cause radiation sickness.
3. You can pull a sword back. You can't pull back a mushroom cloud.
4. A full-scale nuclear war would probably destroy all life on the planet bigger than a cockroach.



Evidently you have not seen the results of a conventional war.  Death is death.  There is no glory in it, there is no beauty.  Nuclear weapons have not been used since the end of WWII for only one reason; massive retaliation.  Guaranteed death.  If you have a sword, it will not deter me from attacking you as I am probably more skillful with a sword than you are, and I have a pistol.  If you have a pistol, it will not deter me from attacking you since I may just be faster than you on the draw.  But if you have nuclear weapons, my death is assured.  It takes five full minutes for a submarine launched nuclear missile to hit this country.  It takes 15 minutes for an ICBM launched from Russia to hit us (and vice versa).  In that time, we (or they, if we fired first) would launch everthing we had.  There is no "winner".  There is nothing left to occupy or take.  Nuclear weapons in the hands of a legitimate state are not weapons of war, they are weapons of peace.  They are perhaps the most blessed of all weapons because they are the ones that are the least likely to be used.  But then again, maybe they should be used.  The cockroaches did not kill their Savior.
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« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2012, 08:12:16 PM »

Here is where the Orthodox could learn something from St. Augustine and Just War Theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

According to this theory, it is allowed for Christians to engage in war if the following conditions are met:

1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. there must be serious prospects of success;
4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons would violate precept #4. An argument could be made that this was not the case in 1945, but a nuclear retaliation today could not be justified.




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« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2012, 08:13:23 PM »

We are not Catholics.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no Orthodox "Just war theory"
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« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2012, 10:16:21 PM »

Here is where the Orthodox could learn something from St. Augustine and Just War Theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

According to this theory, it is allowed for Christians to engage in war if the following conditions are met:

1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. there must be serious prospects of success;
4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons would violate precept #4. An argument could be made that this was not the case in 1945, but a nuclear retaliation today could not be justified.


1. I do not base my Theological Beliefs on Wikipedia.
2. I am not Roman Catholic and the Blessed Augustine was wrong on several things, hence him being "Blessed" and not a "St." in the Orthodox Church.
3. Your opinion of the evils are exactly that, YOUR opinion.  Nothing more.  You seem to have a really hard time getting through your head that the CERTAINTY of a retaliatory strike is what prevents the first strike.  Just as soon as someone with a brain full of unicorn poop manages to convince the bad guys that we would consider a retaliatory strike too evil to perform, there would be nothing to prevent them from making a first strike, along with all of its attached evils.  That is why pacifists are more detrimental to peace than the "rough men" that allow them the luxury of being pacifists. That is also why the human race is ultimately doomed.  We protect people like you even though it is far from our best interests to do so.
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« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2012, 11:09:20 PM »

Nuclear weapons have probably saved more lives in the last century than any technology with the possible exception of antibiotics.  WWII killed somewhere between 60-80 million people.  It involved every major military power on the planet and many of the minor powers as well. 

The major wars of the Cold war never saw these kind of casualties because you never had an instance of two major powers fighting one another (with the exception of China who fought the US and to a lesser extent the USSR at various times).

Conventional combat between the US and the Soviet Union would have been disastrous regardless of who won.
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« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2012, 11:13:43 PM »

Here is where the Orthodox could learn something from St. Augustine and Just War Theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory

According to this theory, it is allowed for Christians to engage in war if the following conditions are met:

1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. there must be serious prospects of success;
4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons would violate precept #4. An argument could be made that this was not the case in 1945, but a nuclear retaliation today could not be justified.



2. I am not Roman Catholic and the Blessed Augustine was wrong on several things, hence him being "Blessed" and not a "St." in the Orthodox Church.


This is not actually a thing.  Him being called "Blessed" in no way detracts from him as a Saint.  In fact, it is quite correct to refer to him in writing as St. Augustine.  In fact, St. Photius called him "the divine Augustine"
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« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2012, 11:29:01 PM »

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« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2012, 01:18:19 AM »

...4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power as well as the precision of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Today, the use of nuclear weapons would violate precept #4. An argument could be made that this was not the case in 1945, but a nuclear retaliation today could not be justified.
I agree. I don't see the justification for the use of nuclear weapons.
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« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2012, 01:21:37 AM »

@ JamesRottnek - The theory should be considered on its merits, not on who expounded it. The Catholic Church opposes abortion; so does the Orthodox Church. Does the fact that we disagree with Catholics on some of their teachings (mainly on ecclesiology) negate every single teaching they believe in? No.

@ Punch - 1. I provided the link to Wikipedia as an easy reference. If you have a better reference for Just War Theory, so much the better.

2. Last I checked, all pre-schism (1054) Western saints are recognized by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church has not picked nor chosen which saints which were universally recognized in the west before 1054 would be accepted in the east.

3. I'm not espousing pacifism! There is a time and place for Christians to defend the weak and defenseless. Nuclear weapons seem to be a rather obtuse way to do that; an analogy would be curing someone's cancer by pushing them into a vat of corrosive acid. A nuclear war would "produce disorders greater than the evil to be eliminated."

@ Vamvrat - You wrote: "Nuclear weapons have probably saved more lives in the last century than any technology with the possible exception of antibiotics." Um, okay...to date. But last I checked, both India and Pakistan both have nuclear weapons and are full of hotheads that probably believe that it is Allah or Shiva's will that their enemies be blasted. So we have yet to see how that will work out in the long run. Lord have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2012, 01:37:48 AM »

Eugenio, I am saying that the Orthodox Church has no tradition of a "just war theory" and consequently, while it might be an interesting theory, it has no effect on my morality or sense of morality.  What is moral and immoral is a question for Church Tradition, to be applied in light of a changing world.  There is no tradition of a "just war theory" in Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2012, 02:07:02 AM »

@ JamesRottnek - The theory should be considered on its merits, not on who expounded it. The Catholic Church opposes abortion; so does the Orthodox Church. Does the fact that we disagree with Catholics on some of their teachings (mainly on ecclesiology) negate every single teaching they believe in? No.

@ Punch - 1. I provided the link to Wikipedia as an easy reference. If you have a better reference for Just War Theory, so much the better.

2. Last I checked, all pre-schism (1054) Western saints are recognized by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church has not picked nor chosen which saints which were universally recognized in the west before 1054 would be accepted in the east.

3. I'm not espousing pacifism! There is a time and place for Christians to defend the weak and defenseless. Nuclear weapons seem to be a rather obtuse way to do that; an analogy would be curing someone's cancer by pushing them into a vat of corrosive acid. A nuclear war would "produce disorders greater than the evil to be eliminated."

@ Vamvrat - You wrote: "Nuclear weapons have probably saved more lives in the last century than any technology with the possible exception of antibiotics." Um, okay...to date. But last I checked, both India and Pakistan both have nuclear weapons and are full of hotheads that probably believe that it is Allah or Shiva's will that their enemies be blasted. So we have yet to see how that will work out in the long run. Lord have mercy on us all.

Yes, nuclear weapons "could" potentially cause lots and lots of death and destruction.  But historically they have only been used twice in war, and they killed far less than conventional means would have.  In fact, as far as just war goes, when you have access to neutron bombs, any conventional war that uses more than a brigade or two of troops should be considered unjust. 
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« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2012, 09:25:09 AM »

The bottom line in this discussion seems to be that Nationalism trumps the Church.  That somehow it is ok for two brothers in faith to be justified in being on opposites sides of war is disheartening to hear.  It does sound like national interests is of greater importance than the faith...except for clergy/monks of course since IIRC they are forbidden to engage in killing.  At some point Nationalism becomes Idolatry and I don't think the line is as far away as some think.  I have a tough time communicating this at the Southern Baptist Church I attend.

I served in the USMC during the cold war (mid 80/s)~~viewed a Soviet warship up close and personal during an operation in Cuba once...and at the time I was something of your typical jarhead American patriot...I probably own more guns/ammo than most here so I'm not your imagined pacifist construct....

Yet today I have different perspectives on this and would tend more toward the path of the priests & monks & Amish & Mennonite folks, particularly regarding involvement in governments' wars.  I'll admit to being something of a hypocrite in that if I'm in a position to defend an innocent or family member from danger I will use force as a last resort~~but to be a pawn of a government in their machinations is something else altogether. The priests & monks show us a better way and though not ordained or tonsured it is an available way to walk for the rest of us, isn't it?

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« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2012, 10:44:15 AM »

Yes, Mr. Jim, one of my great concerns here is that nationalism trumps the church, as you so aptly put it.

Like you, I am not too young to remember the Cold War. I Thank God Russia and the U.S. no longer point nukes at each other. But I also know it would probably take about 30 minutes to change that. So when I see a picture of a Russian priest blessing a nuclear submarine I can't help but think "could those nukes be pointed at my city someday?" The fact that the Patriarch of Moscow is constantly shown in support of Putin & crew does not help allay these fears.

I appreciate your service to our country, Mr. Jim. I tried to join the U.S. military at the end of the Cold War, but was kept out because of a medical condition. I have the utmost respect for our armed forces, and I see the need to maintain them. But similar to what you said, I think it is also the church's job to point out an alternative to the sword - even while ministering to all fallen humans in need of the church - be they soldiers, prisoners, students, businesspeople, etc.
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