OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 08:33:50 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is the Origin of Christmass Pagan?  (Read 2374 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« on: December 06, 2011, 10:18:18 PM »

A great video to watch! I really enjoyed it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mK7PNN-zJgA (video link)

Also, read this article:
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v (Calculating Christmas)
Quote

"Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance."


To read the rest please visit the link.
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 13,642


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 10:20:41 PM »

Ta-daaa! Knew it.  Grin angel


Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,427


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 01:08:32 PM »

A great video to watch! I really enjoyed it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mK7PNN-zJgA (video link)

Also, read this article:
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v (Calculating Christmas)
Quote

"Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance."


To read the rest please visit the link.
Whoever came out with this observation needs to read alot more. The celebration of Sol Invictus is not the first celebration on December that was substituted with Christmas or vice versa. Everything from the birth of Mithras to the Saturnalia is around this time. The pagan holiday around this time is a proven fact historically and existed long before Christianity.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,926


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 02:14:14 PM »

A great video to watch! I really enjoyed it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mK7PNN-zJgA (video link)

Also, read this article:
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v (Calculating Christmas)
Quote

"Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance."


To read the rest please visit the link.
Whoever came out with this observation needs to read alot more. The celebration of Sol Invictus is not the first celebration on December that was substituted with Christmas or vice versa. Everything from the birth of Mithras to the Saturnalia is around this time. The pagan holiday around this time is a proven fact historically and existed long before Christianity.

PP
Key words being "around that time"
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,427


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2011, 02:30:51 PM »

A great video to watch! I really enjoyed it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mK7PNN-zJgA (video link)

Also, read this article:
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v (Calculating Christmas)
Quote

"Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance."


To read the rest please visit the link.
Whoever came out with this observation needs to read alot more. The celebration of Sol Invictus is not the first celebration on December that was substituted with Christmas or vice versa. Everything from the birth of Mithras to the Saturnalia is around this time. The pagan holiday around this time is a proven fact historically and existed long before Christianity.

PP
Key words being "around that time"
Actually, the reason I said "around that time" is because the Saturnalia was multiple days. But if you want me to be specific, I will. The Saturnalia was celebrated from December 15-17 through 22-26 depending on the days the beginning of these weeks fell on.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2011, 02:52:15 PM »

Christians have Christianized many pagan things throughout the century...philosophy, symbols, you name it.
Logged
lost
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 296


« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2011, 03:04:44 PM »

Just curious do we have any early fathers adressing the resemblance of Christmas with the celebration of the Unconquered Sun or Saturnalia?
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2011, 03:06:40 PM »

Christians have Christianized many pagan things throughout the century...philosophy, symbols, you name it.
Even yoga. Shocked
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,427


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 05:05:24 PM »

Christians have Christianized many pagan things throughout the century...philosophy, symbols, you name it.
Even yoga. Shocked
yeah, that is the lamest thing I've seen since...well, 2 days ago I listened to the new Michael W Smith and if I had any doubt that Christ pop sucked, that confirmed it......

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2011, 05:19:53 PM »

Just curious do we have any early fathers adressing the resemblance of Christmas with the celebration of the Unconquered Sun or Saturnalia?

While there might be some aspects of Saturnalia that have been incorporated in our celebration of Christmas, lights and evergreen decorations, the 25th December was actually the Winter Solstice. St Cyprian connected this celebration of the rebirth of the sun, Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, with the Birth of Christ, not Saturnalia. He declared that this 'anniversary of the invincible' was made actual in Jesus' Birth, the only 'invincible' one and the Sun of Justice. (Quoted from The Year of Grace of the Lord)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 05:21:40 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2011, 05:27:24 PM »

Didn't St. Justin Martyr address some of this...talking about other pagan deities etc
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2011, 05:43:21 PM »

Didn't St. Justin Martyr address some of this...talking about other pagan deities etc

I don't know. But I guess it's important to point out that the origin of Christmas is Christ. If a pagan date was picked to celebration His Nativity, it was done so because of typology that resonated with our Christian beliefs. Christmas was never a pagan celebration however many pagan knick-knacks we have borrowed because they fitted symbolically.
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,926


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 05:58:27 PM »

While there might be some aspects of Saturnalia that have been incorporated in our celebration of Christmas, lights and evergreen decorations, the 25th December was actually the Winter Solstice. St Cyprian connected this celebration of the rebirth of the sun, Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, with the Birth of Christ, not Saturnalia. He declared that this 'anniversary of the invincible' was made actual in Jesus' Birth, the only 'invincible' one and the Sun of Justice. (Quoted from The Year of Grace of the Lord)
Actually, said passage was not by St. Cyprian, and the text in question was referring to March 28th and not December 25th:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxBbl_48quo#t=23m27s

(snarkiness of the video directed against a pagan parallels polemicist, not yourself)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:03:55 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 06:09:16 PM »

While there might be some aspects of Saturnalia that have been incorporated in our celebration of Christmas, lights and evergreen decorations, the 25th December was actually the Winter Solstice. St Cyprian connected this celebration of the rebirth of the sun, Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, with the Birth of Christ, not Saturnalia. He declared that this 'anniversary of the invincible' was made actual in Jesus' Birth, the only 'invincible' one and the Sun of Justice. (Quoted from The Year of Grace of the Lord)
Actually, said passage was not by St. Cyprian, and the text in question was referring to March 28th and not December 25th:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxBbl_48quo#t=23m27s

(snarkiness of the video directed against a pagan parallels polemicist, not yourself)


I haven't watched the video, but how does the anniversary of the invincible fit with the 28th March? The birth of the Sun was the 25th December?
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 06:11:45 PM »

Good video. I found it very interesting. He took apart the Christmas myths quite handily.

You can find the sources cited on David Withun's blog: http://www.piousfabrications.com/2010/12/pagan-origins-of-christmas.html
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:13:21 PM by bogdan » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,926


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 06:14:14 PM »

I haven't watched the video, but how does the anniversary of the invincible fit with the 28th March? The birth of the Sun was the 25th December?
Pseudo-Cyprian believed that the world was created on March 25th based on some bizarre computations. That would make March 28th the 4th Day; the day that Genesis says the sun was created on.

He posited that Christ was born on March 28th to connect him with the sun's creation.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:15:34 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 06:28:28 PM »

I haven't watched the video, but how does the anniversary of the invincible fit with the 28th March? The birth of the Sun was the 25th December?
Pseudo-Cyprian believed that the world was created on March 25th based on some bizarre computations. That would make March 28th the 4th Day; the day that Genesis says the sun was created on.

He posited that Christ was born on March 28th to connect him with the sun's creation.

Hmmmm. I don't know, then. The Year of Grace of the Lord doesn't mention this. I give up.  Grin
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,926


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 06:31:58 PM »

Nevertheless, I agree that Christmas includes a few pagan elements (like the Yuel log, a joyful tradition). If the Alaskan saints can baptize totem poles, why not?
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 06:41:12 PM »

Nevertheless, I agree that Christmas includes a few pagan elements (like the Yuel log, a joyful tradition). If the Alaskan saints can baptize totem poles, why not?

I agree. And once pagan elements are borrowed and Christianised, they are no longer pagan. Smiley 

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Golgotha
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95



« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 07:26:54 PM »

The Church has always had a big mix of stuff in it. Pagan, Greek, Jewish, etc... The key is that it was sanctified and transformed for the Glory of God.
Logged
Isadore
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Mediterranean
Posts: 107



« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2011, 12:50:12 AM »

Christianity can Christianize anything Wink

Most seasonal/earth elements to holidays are pagan.
Logged

"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved."
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,801



« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2011, 04:31:12 AM »

Golgotha, you have a beatiful avatar. Smiley Is that some Norwegian stave church?
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,065



« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2011, 05:03:12 AM »

Golgotha, you have a beatiful avatar. Smiley Is that some Norwegian stave church?

It appears to be a wooden church in either SE Poland or E Slovakia, noted for the wooden churches
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,065



« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2011, 05:05:10 AM »

Santa Claus is pagan, heck even demonic.  The greeks have the purple demons of Lent, well the States have the red demon of Advent, Santa Claus
Logged

podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,477


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2011, 10:48:02 AM »

Golgotha, you have a beatiful avatar. Smiley Is that some Norwegian stave church?

It appears to be a wooden church in either SE Poland or E Slovakia, noted for the wooden churches

As silly as this sounds, I remember going to Epcot at Disney World with my children many years ago and in the World Showcase, there is a recreation of a Norse stave church. My children were confused as to why they Norse had a Slovak or Ukrainian church. I suppose the Norsemen brought their architecture with them - or, perhaps as a good 'Rusnak' might say - they stole 'our' idea! Wink Wink
Logged
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,169



« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2011, 11:57:47 AM »

Jesus had to be born sometime between Jan. 1 and Dec. 31.  The atheists would come up with a complaint no matter what day of the year was picked to honor the LORD.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,427


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2011, 01:16:53 PM »

Jesus had to be born sometime between Jan. 1 and Dec. 31.  The atheists would come up with a complaint no matter what day of the year was picked to honor the LORD.
**applauds***
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,256


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2011, 01:53:05 PM »

Heh, I've even heard rumors that 'santa' was really just "satan" scrambled up.   LOL!

I remember today how sincere the guy looked who told me that and how angry he got when I told him about Bishop Nicholas of Myra.
People react so angry to stuff like that.  He was really convinced.

I told him that "devil" spells "lived" backwards.     But then again, "racecar" spells "racecar" backwards...   Also that St. Nicholas probably didn't speak modern English.... LOL.

Excellent video... Small issue with the Yule log burning but I suppose the author of the vid didn't state that it wasn't pagan but became popular later.  But that's just a "tradition" that some people do, and actually not very important to the overall point he presented.   
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,801



« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2011, 08:40:25 AM »

Heh, I've even heard rumors that 'santa' was really just "satan" scrambled up.

This is most certainly true. Here is video about how Santa Clauses are born and trained. Unfortunately the training won't necessarily tame them if one doesn't treat them properly. Safety Instructions must be followed carefully.

Please note that these instructional manuals include violence, cursing and heavy drinking and some of the Father Christmases were harmed during the process.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 08:41:35 AM by Alpo » Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,065



« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2011, 09:27:16 AM »

Golgotha, you have a beatiful avatar. Smiley Is that some Norwegian stave church?

It appears to be a wooden church in either SE Poland or E Slovakia, noted for the wooden churches

As silly as this sounds, I remember going to Epcot at Disney World with my children many years ago and in the World Showcase, there is a recreation of a Norse stave church. My children were confused as to why they Norse had a Slovak or Ukrainian church. I suppose the Norsemen brought their architecture with them - or, perhaps as a good 'Rusnak' might say - they stole 'our' idea! Wink Wink

Well, of course they stole our idea Smiley
Logged

jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2011, 04:40:44 AM »

A great video to watch! I really enjoyed it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mK7PNN-zJgA (video link)

Also, read this article:
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v (Calculating Christmas)
Quote

"Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance."


To read the rest please visit the link.
Whoever came out with this observation needs to read alot more. The celebration of Sol Invictus is not the first celebration on December that was substituted with Christmas or vice versa. Everything from the birth of Mithras to the Saturnalia is around this time. The pagan holiday around this time is a proven fact historically and existed long before Christianity.

PP

The how many different pagan groups celebrating stuff on the month of December (different days in the month and not necessarily the 25th) was never the point of the article. The point and focus of the article was on the Origin of Christmass itself. Meaning, why did Christians create this Feast day. That's the point. And in mentioning Sol Invictus, it was in regards to the latin church or western church. Mithras was started in the christian east and then went west. It was big with the Roman Army, but what does that have to do with why Christians created a feast day on the month of December?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 04:52:22 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2011, 05:02:10 AM »

http://youtu.be/sASvGq3pLQw (Contra Zeitgeist 11: Mithra)
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2011, 05:06:00 AM »

Christians have Christianized many pagan things throughout the century...philosophy, symbols, you name it.

Yeah, but we should at least know what pagan stuff was christianized. What we shouldn't do is assume that everything was christianized. If our reasons for creating a feast day in December(or January) was different than we should know that too!

The whole point of the article was to show why we celebrate the feast day in December(or January) instead of some other month.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 05:08:06 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2011, 05:13:46 AM »

Christianity can Christianize anything Wink

Most seasonal/earth elements to holidays are pagan.

Everything wasn't pagan. That's the whole point. What I see are two errors. One is to make everything Christian as coming from Judaism. The other is to make everything Christian as coming from paganism.


If one wants to be as accurate as possible then those who defend either errors will pounce on those who wish to see the truth of the matter!

The truth of the matter is that sometimes Christians can develop or grow their own stuff for their own CHRISTIAN(belief or custom) reasons.


Thus, everything doesn't have to come by way of either Judaism or paganism(gentile). It can also come naturally by way of deriving what already exists within it's own Christian bosom.

It can create new stuff, new feast days from it's own self.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 05:23:59 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2011, 05:31:01 AM »

Good video. I found it very interesting. He took apart the Christmas myths quite handily.

You can find the sources cited on David Withun's blog: http://www.piousfabrications.com/2010/12/pagan-origins-of-christmas.html

Thanks for being so kind! My friend will appreciate your kindness! Sometimes it's hard for people are already set in their ways of .....oh, we got everything from pagans or oh, we got everything from judaism.

That you know, they really don't want to hear what anyone else has to say.



And so I thank you for taking the time to watch the video!
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2011, 05:35:55 AM »

The Church has always had a big mix of stuff in it. Pagan, Greek, Jewish, etc... The key is that it was sanctified and transformed for the Glory of God.

Agreed!
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Golgotha
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 95



« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2011, 07:25:16 AM »

+1
Yes! The Church has created many of the traditions within itself.  These are unique, beautiful, and add to the fullness of faith.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 07:26:35 AM by Golgotha » Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,498



« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2011, 08:50:54 AM »

...but what does that have to do with why Christians created a feast day on the month of December?
I've read bits and pieces about this elsewhere (and just did a quick search on Google with the search terms Christmas, date, Annunciation). It seems that the date of December follows from a March 25 Annunciation (Conception of Christ); some sources tie it in with the date of the conception and birth of John the Forerunner, which these scholars claim to be able to determine from the sequence of high priests at the time. Others claim that Jesus was born and died on the same date, and determined that date to be on (or about) March 25. Thus, His birth would occur on December 25.

I'm not prepared to take a personal stand on any of these theories. I can accept that any or all or none may be correct. The event of His birth is more important to me than the date.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,833



« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2011, 01:01:57 PM »

Christians have Christianized many pagan things throughout the century...philosophy, symbols, you name it.

Yeah, but we should at least know what pagan stuff was christianized. What we shouldn't do is assume that everything was christianized. If our reasons for creating a feast day in December(or January) was different than we should know that too!

The whole point of the article was to show why we celebrate the feast day in December(or January) instead of some other month.

No Christian Church calendar has Nativity fall on any other date then December 25th, the Winter Solstice when the celebration shifted from being co-celebrated with Theophany. You must be referring to the fact that some churches are pretending that December 25th falls on some other date.  Wink
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 01:02:34 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,498



« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2011, 01:14:50 PM »

No Christian Church calendar has Nativity fall on any other date then December 25th, the Winter Solstice when the celebration shifted from being co-celebrated with Theophany. You must be referring to the fact that some churches are pretending that December 25th falls on some other date.  Wink
In earliest times, Theophany and Nativity were both celebrated on January 6. It was only later that the two feasts were separated. Even now, the Armenian Church commemorates the two on January 6.
Logged
Tags: Christmass  pagan  feastday 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.139 seconds with 67 queries.