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« on: December 06, 2011, 08:30:29 PM »

From my own limited observations, it seems like few Orthodox men wear formal clothing to church. By this I mean a suit and tie. Folks usually wear at least a nice shirt and slacks, but few wear a coat, and even fewer wear a tie. I even remember reading somewhere that it is not traditional For Orthodox men to wear ties because of vanity.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 08:42:36 PM »

Speaking only for myself, I dislike wearing suit and tie to Church as it reminds me too much of work. I also feel that suit and tie together connote "commerce", rather than "formality".
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 08:52:40 PM »

I think you should look your best. Whenever we would have liturgies at the seminary there were many guys who would wear cufflinks & ties underneath their cassocks.  Now, were they doing it b/c of "sunday best" or b/c of vanity, that is a personal spiritual issue.  IMO, you should dress your best every sunday.  Is it the end of the world if you don't?  No, but it shows effort, which i'm a big fan of.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 08:54:28 PM »

i see a good representation of suits and ties at my parish. i dont wear one, primarily becuase i dont have one.
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 08:59:55 PM »

i see a good representation of suits and ties at my parish. i dont wear one, primarily becuase i dont have one.

I have a total of one suit. I only wear it to Liturgy on Christmas, Pascha, or the other Great Feasts. Other than that it's one of my three dress shirts and a pair of black jeans. That said, if I had the expendable income, I might start wearing suits more often.
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 09:42:43 PM »

I think there are multiple factors in play here:

-Geographical area;
-Age of the parishioner;
-Time of year;
-Whether or not a suit is in the parishioner's closet;
-the service itself.

When I was a priest in MS, I never saw a suit during the summer. July/August in MS is unbeleivably warm, even if the air conditioning had not been stolen and was functioning. Suits just were not seen, except for maybe a funeral.

Once fall arrived, older male parishioners would wear suits to the Sunday Liturgy if they had one; dress was more casual if the service was during a weekday or not a Liturgy.

From my colleagues in other parts of the US, suit wearing was more common in MS than other places due to the culture of the area.
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 09:51:18 PM »

At the OCA Parish where I was baptized, suit and tie.

At the current Rocor Parish, it is way too hot to wear a suit especially for me due to vesting.

I had to wear a suit this Saturday when we hosted +Metropolitan Hilarion for an ordination. I ripped that sucker off as fast as I could after I handed him the bread and salt.
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2011, 09:54:34 PM »

I wear a shirt and tie and a pair of nice slacks because that is how i feel most comfortable, and respectful
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2011, 09:54:51 PM »

From my own limited observations, it seems like few Orthodox men wear formal clothing to church. By this I mean a suit and tie. Folks usually wear at least a nice shirt and slacks, but few wear a coat, and even fewer wear a tie. I even remember reading somewhere that it is not traditional For Orthodox men to wear ties because of vanity.

Thoughts?

I live in the North East section of the US, and growing up my father and the other male members of my family always wore a suit and tie. If not a tie, a suit with a nice shirt underneath. This still holds true to this day, and whenever my boyfriend attends Liturgy with me he always wears a shirt and tie, if not a full suit and tie. During the summer months, men will usually switch off to a polo shirt and a nice set of khakis.

As others have said, I think it depends on geography, age, and the economy of the surrounding area of the parish.

I've been to some parishes in well to do areas where everyone was dressed quite prim and proper, and been to other parishes where people were dressed rather casual.

I think you should always wear your "best" for Church, whatever that may be. If your "best" happens to be the only clean pair of jeans you own, then put them on. If you can afford a suit, well put that on.
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 09:59:18 PM »

I wear a suit and tie during the winter months, but during the summer it's more "business casual" for me.

I don't understand why people wear jeans  and tennis shoes to church.  That doesn't seem right.
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 10:11:29 PM »

When I was a priest in MS, I never saw a suit during the summer. July/August in MS is unbeleivably warm, even if the air conditioning had not been stolen and was functioning. Suits just were not seen, except for maybe a funeral.
As a sometime practitioner of Mississippi Orthodoxy, I wholeheartedly attest to the truthfulness of this, especially the possibility that someone stole the air-conditioner. Churches make excellent targets for copper thieves.

But speaking only of clothes and especially suits, in the summer an older gentleman might wear a seersucker suit, but those men are getting fewer and fewer. Even in the cooler months when jackets come out they will be open and no ties worn. In one rural parish I have attended, it is likely the men will be evenly split between wearing slacks/white shirt and their best pair of Wranglers/work shirt. The jeans will always be the newest, darkest ones with the least amount of wear, though the Skoal ring in the back pocket will obviously stand out. I do not think there is any theology behind this, only practicality -- you wear what you have, and you have what you can afford.
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 10:18:59 PM »

When I was a priest in MS, I never saw a suit during the summer. July/August in MS is unbeleivably warm, even if the air conditioning had not been stolen and was functioning. Suits just were not seen, except for maybe a funeral.
As a sometime practitioner of Mississippi Orthodoxy, I wholeheartedly attest to the truthfulness of this, especially the possibility that someone stole the air-conditioner. Churches make excellent targets for copper thieves.

But speaking only of clothes and especially suits, in the summer an older gentleman might wear a seersucker suit, but those men are getting fewer and fewer. Even in the cooler months when jackets come out they will be open and no ties worn. In one rural parish I have attended, it is likely the men will be evenly split between wearing slacks/white shirt and their best pair of Wranglers/work shirt. The jeans will always be the newest, darkest ones with the least amount of wear, though the Skoal ring in the back pocket will obviously stand out. I do not think there is any theology behind this, only practicality -- you wear what you have, and you have what you can afford.


No, I wasn't kidding about the ac being stolen..in two years in MS the ac units got stolen twice.

Nothing like doing a Liturgy with 5 layers of clothing in a day with 99 degrees heat and 90% humidity....
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 10:41:18 PM »

I usually wear jeans to church.  A lot of the men wear jeans, so I don't feel out of place.  There is only one guy at the service I attend who wears a suit and he is a Texan in his 60s. Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 10:46:41 PM »

I never quite understood the reasoning behind wearing "Sunday best". Does it glorifies God in any way? Not that I know of. It seems more or less to be a bizarre custom our culture has adopted. Not that I wish to condemn people who feel the need to dress that way, I just choose not to. The witness of the saints, monastics, and fools-for-Christ is quite clear - good looks and comely dress have never assisted in salvation.
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 10:50:16 PM »

I never quite understood the reasoning behind wearing "Sunday best". Does it glorifies God in any way? Not that I know of. It seems more or less to be a bizarre custom our culture has adopted. Not that I wish to condemn people who feel the need to dress that way, I just choose not to. The witness of the saints, monastics, and fools-for-Christ is quite clear - good looks and comely dress have never assisted in salvation.

The emperors were saints as well.  just saying. 
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 10:56:40 PM »

I never quite understood the reasoning behind wearing "Sunday best". Does it glorifies God in any way? Not that I know of. It seems more or less to be a bizarre custom our culture has adopted. Not that I wish to condemn people who feel the need to dress that way, I just choose not to. The witness of the saints, monastics, and fools-for-Christ is quite clear - good looks and comely dress have never assisted in salvation.

The emperors were saints as well.  just saying. 
Absolutely. I was not condemning anyone for dressing well. It should simply be clear that such customs are not helpful in our salvation. It is simply that - custom.
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« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2011, 10:58:12 PM »

Unless the parish posts a set of guidelines, I guess it's a judgement call. I enjoy wearing a blouse and skirt every week, but that's just me. Most of the people in our church dress what could be called 'business casual.' I have seen a few people come in casual clothes, though, and nobody bothers them. I'm just happy they're here.  Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2011, 10:59:21 PM »

From my own limited observations, it seems like few Orthodox men wear formal clothing to church. By this I mean a suit and tie. Folks usually wear at least a nice shirt and slacks, but few wear a coat, and even fewer wear a tie. I even remember reading somewhere that it is not traditional For Orthodox men to wear ties because of vanity.

Thoughts?

I live in the North East section of the US, and growing up my father and the other male members of my family always wore a suit and tie. If not a tie, a suit with a nice shirt underneath. This still holds true to this day, and whenever my boyfriend attends Liturgy with me he always wears a shirt and tie, if not a full suit and tie. During the summer months, men will usually switch off to a polo shirt and a nice set of khakis.

As others have said, I think it depends on geography, age, and the economy of the surrounding area of the parish.

I've been to some parishes in well to do areas where everyone was dressed quite prim and proper, and been to other parishes where people were dressed rather casual.

I think you should always wear your "best" for Church, whatever that may be. If your "best" happens to be the only clean pair of jeans you own, then put them on. If you can afford a suit, well put that on.
The problem with that is, I've known at least one person from the "only clean pair of jeans" set who honestly feels quite looked down upon when the rest of the congregation is suit and tie.

I guess I could just tell him to suck it up, only focus on God, etc. but I'm not sure...
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 11:02:23 PM »

In my parish, a lot of the people are from the older generation, and they were probably taught that dressed up is the way you go to Church. If it bothers you, ask someone in the parish staff. Otherwise, it's not the most important thing on the plate.
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2011, 11:12:36 PM »

In my parish, a lot of the people are from the older generation, and they were probably taught that dressed up is the way you go to Church. If it bothers you, ask someone in the parish staff. Otherwise, it's not the most important thing on the plate.
Not me, not my parish. Thanks though Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2011, 11:15:36 PM »

I generally wear a nice shirt and khakis. I could wear a suit, but I'd feel a little pretentious being that formal at 17 years old.  Tongue
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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2011, 11:20:23 PM »

From my own limited observations, it seems like few Orthodox men wear formal clothing to church. By this I mean a suit and tie. Folks usually wear at least a nice shirt and slacks, but few wear a coat, and even fewer wear a tie. I even remember reading somewhere that it is not traditional For Orthodox men to wear ties because of vanity.

Thoughts?

I live in the North East section of the US, and growing up my father and the other male members of my family always wore a suit and tie. If not a tie, a suit with a nice shirt underneath. This still holds true to this day, and whenever my boyfriend attends Liturgy with me he always wears a shirt and tie, if not a full suit and tie. During the summer months, men will usually switch off to a polo shirt and a nice set of khakis.

As others have said, I think it depends on geography, age, and the economy of the surrounding area of the parish.

I've been to some parishes in well to do areas where everyone was dressed quite prim and proper, and been to other parishes where people were dressed rather casual.

I think you should always wear your "best" for Church, whatever that may be. If your "best" happens to be the only clean pair of jeans you own, then put them on. If you can afford a suit, well put that on.
The problem with that is, I've known at least one person from the "only clean pair of jeans" set who honestly feels quite looked down upon when the rest of the congregation is suit and tie.

I guess I could just tell him to suck it up, only focus on God, etc. but I'm not sure...

What I tend to find most often (and I was guilty of this myself, in the past) is that "the only clean pair of jeans" set is most often those who have access to better clothes but specifically dress in a t-shirt and jeans to "make a point". Usually, they go dressed like that in order to be "looked down on" (or in the case of certain non-denoms they just feel out of place while visiting mom and dad's church for Christmas). For me, any feelings of such persecution left when I really did start attending Church in my only clean pair of jeans- my last pair of khaki's headed out the door after a stain remover ended up being the stainer.
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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2011, 11:23:04 PM »

I wore jeans to church for a while in college. This happened a lot when I lived in a town where we got heavy snow, and frankly, I didn't feel like having my legs freeze before I got to the building.  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2011, 11:32:29 PM »

I'm glad more men don't wear suits to church. Otherwise they would be a distraction.


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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2011, 11:53:53 PM »

My old parish was full of suits.

My new one is far more casual and contains some of the LARPing sort, but primarily from the women.

Edit: I'm fairly formal, but try not to wear anything too flashy.  I don't do the jeans and a t-shirt thing, because I'm not a redneck nondenominational whatever who thinks Jesus is my drinking buddy (I'm with you, FormerReformer).  The judgment that some of those people have for those of us who choose to dress up a bit is remarkable.  It seems a great deal of effort goes into being "properly" attired from the clergy side; the least I can do is look presentable.  For those who can't afford to "dress up," it's a totally different scenario, but some form of slacks and a collared shirt (I always cover my arms) shouldn't be too difficult for most.
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« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2011, 12:00:10 AM »

Funny but people wear thier best to meet earthly "VIPs"; presidents, queens, prime ministers, CEO's etc.
But when you go to spend time with G-d, jeans are ok.
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« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2011, 12:04:40 AM »

I remember hearing somewhere, when you go to worship, "you should dress like you're going to see a king."

Because you are.  angel
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2011, 12:17:02 AM »

I've done a bit of traveling and I notice people in the South dress up more for Church. I haven't been to the Northeast but I assume it might be the same. A large chunk of the guys at my parish wear suits and ties. (Some even with cowboy boots) I feel a little out of place wearing slacks and a shirt Tongue
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2011, 12:27:03 AM »

Funny but people wear thier best to meet earthly "VIPs"; presidents, queens, prime ministers, CEO's etc.
But when you go to spend time with G-d, jeans are ok.
The former expect us to be dressed according to worldly customs. For them, it is indeed right and proper. God, on the other hand, only requires we be clothed in the wedding garments of repentance and illumination.
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2011, 12:29:19 AM »

Funny but people wear thier best to meet earthly "VIPs"; presidents, queens, prime ministers, CEO's etc.
But when you go to spend time with G-d, jeans are ok.
The former expect us to be dressed according to worldly customs. For them, it is indeed right and proper. God, on the other hand, only requires we be clothed in the wedding garments of repentance and illumination.
But doesn't the entire Orthodox theology of icons, vestments, altar dressings, etc. imply that God wants the best we can materially offer as well?
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2011, 12:34:11 AM »

I guess I could just tell him to suck it up, only focus on God, etc. but I'm not sure...

And this would be the correct response. We shouldn't be focusing on what others wear to Church; there are beautiful icons all around us, if you want something to look at, look at an icon.  

It angers and annoys me how much time is dedicated to what people are wearing. "Her skirt is too short!" "His arms are showing!" "Why doesn't he have a beard?" "Where is her head covering?"

Stop focusing on others and focus on your own soul and your relationship with God.

Each one of us here is familiar with the social norms, economic challenges, and weather obstacles we must overcome to go to Liturgy at our own particular parish. My advice to anyone would be to do the best with what you've got. If you see others in the parish are dressed more casual, then that's okay. If you see people are dressed more formal, and you can afford to do so, then follow suit. (No pun intended.)

To spend time consuming yourself with worry about what others think of you and such is not only sinful, it will just cause unnecessary anxiety.
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2011, 12:38:19 AM »

But doesn't the entire Orthodox theology of icons, vestments, altar dressings, etc. imply that God wants the best we can materially offer as well?

While this is sound reasoning, it's not always possible.

A family may be able to afford fine dresses and suits, but if they have to traverse through snow and cold winds to get to Liturgy, this may not be practical.

This is why it is best not to focus on what others wear, and to only worry about yourself.

You ultimately have to dress in a way that you feel is honoring to God, but isn't giving into pride, vanity, etc.
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2011, 12:45:33 AM »

But doesn't the entire Orthodox theology of icons, vestments, altar dressings, etc. imply that God wants the best we can materially offer as well?

While this is sound reasoning, it's not always possible.

A family may be able to afford fine dresses and suits, but if they have to traverse through snow and cold winds to get to Liturgy, this may not be practical.

This is why it is best not to focus on what others wear, and to only worry about yourself.

You ultimately have to dress in a way that you feel is honoring to God, but isn't giving into pride, vanity, etc.
True, but I was responding to IC's assertion that such things are completely irrelevant spiritually. That sounds like the kind of reasoning that leads to the Protestant "four bare walls and a sermon."
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2011, 01:00:35 AM »

Funny but people wear thier best to meet earthly "VIPs"; presidents, queens, prime ministers, CEO's etc.
But when you go to spend time with G-d, jeans are ok.
The former expect us to be dressed according to worldly customs. For them, it is indeed right and proper. God, on the other hand, only requires we be clothed in the wedding garments of repentance and illumination.
But doesn't the entire Orthodox theology of icons, vestments, altar dressings, etc. imply that God wants the best we can materially offer as well?
I think there is a distinction to be made in liturgy and personal dress. A beautiful liturgy is for the glory of God and to the benefit of the faithful. Wearing pressed pants and a nice coat...not so much.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem : "But let your apparel be plain, not for adornment, but for necessary covering: not to minister to your vanity, but to keep you warm in winter, and to hide the unseemliness of the body: lest under the pretense of hiding the unseemliness, you fall under another kind of unseemliness by your extravagant dress."

Were modern fashion and pleasant dress such a boon to salvation, I sincerely doubt anyone would have worn things like this :







Fine clothing is just like fine tasting food. Not sinful in of itself, but it can be a pitfall for many. The saints have shown time after time that neither are necessary nor are they beneficial in obtaining illumination.
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« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2011, 01:06:05 AM »

No one is saying that they are a "boon to salvation," IC. Not even close.
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« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2011, 01:07:12 AM »

And yet by the same quote of St. Cyril, St. Mary of Egypt and the Fools-for-Christ were in violation of his "hide the unseemliness of the body advice." Those saints were by and large special cases so it's kind of pointless to bring them up in a general discussion of dress.

Just like a church can be well decorated for the glory of God, so can the people be well dressed for the glory of God. By the same token, God is also pleased with people who don't have a lot of money and are dressing the best they can and with poor parishes that can only afford a couple of icons. The point is that we make the effort.
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« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2011, 01:07:38 AM »

No one is saying that they are a "boon to salvation," IC. Not even close.

Go reread the thread.
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« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2011, 01:21:09 AM »

And yet by the same quote of St. Cyril, St. Mary of Egypt and the Fools-for-Christ were in violation of his "hide the unseemliness of the body advice." Those saints were by and large special cases so it's kind of pointless to bring them up in a general discussion of dress.

Just like a church can be well decorated for the glory of God, so can the people be well dressed for the glory of God. By the same token, God is also pleased with people who don't have a lot of money and are dressing the best they can and with poor parishes who can only afford a couple of icons. The point is that we make the effort.
I don't think the saints are "special cases" (in the since that their examples are removed from the tradition of the Church). They should be sources of inspiration, not simply admiration. Obviously, this must be taken in strides as we are able. Do you find St. Cyril's quote applicable to Orthodox today?

Do you know of any saints/elders/teachers of the Church that encourage fine dress and equate it to beautiful liturgy?

And I will make clear for anyone reading (lest my words be misinterpreted) : I am not condemning fine clothing, only the idea that it is pleasing to God or in anyway beneficial to the salvation of our souls.
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« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2011, 01:24:07 AM »

Funny but people wear thier best to meet earthly "VIPs"; presidents, queens, prime ministers, CEO's etc.
But when you go to spend time with G-d, jeans are ok.
In Spanish, you use the informal second person when talking to God and use the formal second person when talking to presidents, queens, prime ministers, CEOs, etc.
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« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2011, 01:29:43 AM »

And yet by the same quote of St. Cyril, St. Mary of Egypt and the Fools-for-Christ were in violation of his "hide the unseemliness of the body advice." Those saints were by and large special cases so it's kind of pointless to bring them up in a general discussion of dress.

Just like a church can be well decorated for the glory of God, so can the people be well dressed for the glory of God. By the same token, God is also pleased with people who don't have a lot of money and are dressing the best they can and with poor parishes who can only afford a couple of icons. The point is that we make the effort.
I don't think the saints are "special cases" (in the since that their examples are removed from the tradition of the Church). They should be sources of inspiration, not simply admiration. Obviously, this must be taken in strides as we are able. Do you find St. Cyril's quote applicable to Orthodox today?

Do you know of any saints/elders/teachers of the Church that encourage fine dress and equate it to beautiful liturgy?

And I will make clear for anyone reading (lest my words be misinterpreted) : I am not condemning fine clothing, only the idea that it is pleasing to God or in anyway beneficial to the salvation of our souls.
Special cases in the sense that not everyone goes walking about naked today. They did it for a specific reason.

And for the rest, you may have a point. But I still don't see why dressing in a t-shirt in a jeans should be acceptable if this isn't all you have available.
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« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2011, 01:30:43 AM »

It is true that many holy fools walked around in rags or even stark naked, but this was an outgrowth of their holiness and their calling to holy foolishness. Not everyone is called to that (in fact it's quite rare), and if one seeks to emulate them in their ascesis, without the accompanying holiness and calling, it is quite possible one is deluded and in fact more arrogant than some uptight man wearing an Armani suit.

You cannot judge a person by what they wear. Someone might wear simple clothes out of sheer pride before men, or someone may wear expensive clothes out of sheer awe before God. It is not for anyone to say.

For myself, I was raised to wear my best when I go to worship God. Not because I think I can impress Him, but because that is what humans do. We give nice things to people we consider important. Yes, it's all nothing but filthy rags before God, but I think it's like a 3-year-old scribbling in crayon for his mother. It's nothing but a mess, but it's beautiful to the mother and child and that's all that really matters.

People dress rather formally at my parish, and it does not necessarily reflect the wealth. I would wear a suit if I could afford one.

So long as we do not cause others to stumble, what we wear is a personal decision. Whatever we offer God with a loving and pure heart is accepted by Him, I believe.
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« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2011, 01:42:58 AM »

Funny but people wear thier best to meet earthly "VIPs"; presidents, queens, prime ministers, CEO's etc.
But when you go to spend time with G-d, jeans are ok.
The former expect us to be dressed according to worldly customs. For them, it is indeed right and proper. God, on the other hand, only requires we be clothed in the wedding garments of repentance and illumination.
But doesn't the entire Orthodox theology of icons, vestments, altar dressings, etc. imply that God wants the best we can materially offer as well?
I think there is a distinction to be made in liturgy and personal dress. A beautiful liturgy is for the glory of God and to the benefit of the faithful. Wearing pressed pants and a nice coat...not so much.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem : "But let your apparel be plain, not for adornment, but for necessary covering: not to minister to your vanity, but to keep you warm in winter, and to hide the unseemliness of the body: lest under the pretense of hiding the unseemliness, you fall under another kind of unseemliness by your extravagant dress."

Were modern fashion and pleasant dress such a boon to salvation, I sincerely doubt anyone would have worn things like this :

The saints have shown time after time that neither are necessary nor are they beneficial in obtaining illumination.
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« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2011, 01:43:24 AM »

Whether it's at the Ethiopian Orthodox Church or the Greek Orthodox Church we attend here in Mississippi, the Orthodox Church is the only Church where I truly felt accepted regardless of what I wore. Of course, I never entered the Church dressed in an inappropriate manner. My personal opinion is that we should simply dress prepared to pray. Prostrations are difficult enough without trying to do them in a suit.  Wink



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« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2011, 02:03:46 AM »

Prostrations are difficult enough without trying to do them in a suit.  Wink

+1
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« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2011, 02:06:26 AM »

OCA, GOA, or else, I wear a tie with a suit or nice sport jacket with slacks, all wool and my Johnny Murphy's as a sign of respect for the service I perform.  When I'm not serving, I always dress appropriately nice as a sign of respect towards Christ the King.  I feel so many people will deck out for a date or for a show, but when it comes to presenting oneself to God, they need a little work.  But what's worse than a man not wearing his Sunday Best?  ... Answer:  A woman wearing her "best", inappropriate for Sunday Best...  Does that ever happen in the Orthodox arena, and how is it handled?  I guess our former protestant ways are why we are the way we are.  And we live in Dallas, where heated summers are grueling hot.
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« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2011, 02:07:32 AM »

Prostrations are difficult enough without trying to do them in a suit.  Wink

+1
Well, being prior serve, it's nothing for me to drop and give em 20 in my Class As, same with a suit.
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« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2011, 02:56:36 AM »

But I still don't see why dressing in a t-shirt in a jeans should be acceptable if this isn't all you have available.

Perhaps that person struggles with pride, and his/her spiritual father has commanded them to wear jeans to Church rather than dress extravagantly. It is not for us to judge, but rather for God to understand.
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« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2011, 03:29:22 AM »

I've seen a range from casual (jeans and a t shirt) to suit and tie in my church. I've personally worn everything from a tie (I do have a couple of decent looking jackets that were given to me, I still need to have them tailored to fit before I can wear them) to the clothes I wore to work (in a factory) the night before. I wore sandals to my chrismation. My priest does send an email out every spring reminding the parish not too dress too immodestly or too casual (shorts are usually mentioned specifically) and another one around football season asking people not to wear their favorite jersey.
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« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2011, 04:50:41 AM »

But I still don't see why dressing in a t-shirt in a jeans should be acceptable if this isn't all you have available.

Perhaps that person struggles with pride, and his/her spiritual father has commanded them to wear jeans to Church rather than dress extravagantly. It is not for us to judge, but rather for God to understand.
Good point.
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« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2011, 05:52:43 AM »


St John (Maximovitch) the Wonderworker would not allow anyone serving at the altar to wear a tie because to him it signified a hangman's noose, and symbols of death had no place in the sanctuary (it was also reminiscent of Judas' betrayal). 
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« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2011, 09:14:38 AM »

Answer:  A woman wearing her "best", inappropriate for Sunday Best...  Does that ever happen in the Orthodox arena, and how is it handled?
I look the other way.
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« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2011, 10:18:53 AM »

Whether it's at the Ethiopian Orthodox Church or the Greek Orthodox Church we attend here in Mississippi, the Orthodox Church is the only Church where I truly felt accepted regardless of what I wore. Of course, I never entered the Church dressed in an inappropriate manner. My personal opinion is that we should simply dress prepared to pray. Prostrations are difficult enough without trying to do them in a suit.  Wink



Selam

I've certainly never had a problem prostrating in a suit, but, then again, I actually wear clothes that fits me unlike most American men who wear the most ill fitting attire and I'm not talking about it from an aesthetic standpoint, either.  Clothes that fit should not look like their hanging off a man.  Even in cultures where loose fitting garments are the norm, they fit the wearer. 

That being said, I agree with Gebre's sentiment.  One should wear something simple, tasteful, dignified and comfortable.

Coming to church in a hairshirt and robe in the 21st century United States is vanity, too.
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« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2011, 10:40:42 AM »


That being said, I agree with Gebre's sentiment.  One should wear something simple, tasteful, dignified and comfortable.

Coming to church in a hairshirt and robe in the 21st century United States is vanity, too.
Excellent points that I can easily agree with.

In my own parish, men rarely wear jacket and tie. I will occasionally put on a tie with a dress shirt (no jacket) simply because I like the look and am comfortable with it.

Men dress in something better than everyday "work clothes", and generally a bit better than "just going to the mall". Certainly no shorts and flip-flops as I've seen in other places. If it's a Great Feast, funeral, wedding, etc., then it will be stepped up a level or two.

What is important when deciding what to wear is to avoid drawing attention to oneself.
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« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2011, 10:42:14 AM »

I never quite understood the reasoning behind wearing "Sunday best". Does it glorifies God in any way? Not that I know of. It seems more or less to be a bizarre custom our culture has adopted. Not that I wish to condemn people who feel the need to dress that way, I just choose not to. The witness of the saints, monastics, and fools-for-Christ is quite clear - good looks and comely dress have never assisted in salvation.

I don't think it is done for God, I think we do it for our own reasons.   It is just to get the sense that going to Liturgy is doing something different than other things we do.  We prepare for it, we have a special morning routine that includes dressing better than we do for a routine outing.     I do think it depends on location, and local custom.  Around here "Best" (the suit and tie) is for feast days and funerals, but "Sunday better" is  how I would describe dress at a Sunday Liturgy.  A way to  dress a little different than going to work.  It is like fasting before Liturgy, it is not done for God, but for our own reasons.
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« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2011, 11:22:09 AM »

As long as you're covered and it's plain, you're good.

The only thing I wish is that men were better about making an effort to wear long sleeves, or for women long skirts or dresses and head coverings. But I can see if none of the other women cover then that could be a distraction if one woman decided to be the stickler.
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« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2011, 11:43:47 AM »

I'm glad more men don't wear suits to church. Otherwise they would be a distraction.


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I'm so glad that you said this first! Grin

Guys, just so you know, men generally look mighty fine in a suit!

(nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
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« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2011, 11:45:52 AM »

I never quite understood the reasoning behind wearing "Sunday best". Does it glorifies God in any way? Not that I know of. It seems more or less to be a bizarre custom our culture has adopted. Not that I wish to condemn people who feel the need to dress that way, I just choose not to. The witness of the saints, monastics, and fools-for-Christ is quite clear - good looks and comely dress have never assisted in salvation.

I don't think it is done for God, I think we do it for our own reasons.   It is just to get the sense that going to Liturgy is doing something different than other things we do.  We prepare for it, we have a special morning routine that includes dressing better than we do for a routine outing.     I do think it depends on location, and local custom.  Around here "Best" (the suit and tie) is for feast days and funerals, but "Sunday better" is  how I would describe dress at a Sunday Liturgy.  A way to  dress a little different than going to work.  It is like fasting before Liturgy, it is not done for God, but for our own reasons.

When this topic comes up, a priest that I know always asks, "Think about it. Would you dress up for a job interview? Or a friend's wedding? Or any kind of important occasion?"
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« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2011, 12:23:57 PM »

I wear a polo and kahkis with nice shoes usually.
I dont have my suit anymore and Im not sure if I would wear it if I did. I kind of look like a Mafia soldier when I do.

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« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2011, 12:34:27 PM »

I never quite understood the reasoning behind wearing "Sunday best". Does it glorifies God in any way? Not that I know of. It seems more or less to be a bizarre custom our culture has adopted. Not that I wish to condemn people who feel the need to dress that way, I just choose not to. The witness of the saints, monastics, and fools-for-Christ is quite clear - good looks and comely dress have never assisted in salvation.

I don't think it is done for God, I think we do it for our own reasons.   It is just to get the sense that going to Liturgy is doing something different than other things we do.  We prepare for it, we have a special morning routine that includes dressing better than we do for a routine outing.     I do think it depends on location, and local custom.  Around here "Best" (the suit and tie) is for feast days and funerals, but "Sunday better" is  how I would describe dress at a Sunday Liturgy.  A way to  dress a little different than going to work.  It is like fasting before Liturgy, it is not done for God, but for our own reasons.

I think on the flip side of this though, when we DON'T do it, we are NOT doing it for our own reasons, not for God.  Are you not dressing up b/c you have a strict prayer rule against vanity?  Let's be honest...not a lot of people fit into that category. 
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« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2011, 12:39:47 PM »

The only thing I wish is that men were better about making an effort to wear long sleeves

Forgive my ignorance, but how is wearing a short sleeve shirt (such as a polo shirt, or short-sleeved dress shirt) immodest?

I know that in monasteries men are required to wear long sleeves, but we are not in a monastery.
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« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2011, 12:59:57 PM »

I wear a polo and kahkis with nice shoes usually.
I dont have my suit anymore and Im not sure if I would wear it if I did. I kind of look like a Mafia soldier when I do.

PP

We often hear from the more hyper- amongst us that we should dress simply and avoid bringing attention to ourselves.  The bolded outfit is probably the best way to go (for a man) when really trying to strive to follow the quote from St. Cyril posted earlier in this thread.  It's the most innocuous and plain "dress up" outfit which definitely fits the bill of "simple, tasteful, dignified and comfortable," that I mentioned previously as my rule of the thumb.  If on the cool side of things, long sleeve white or blue button down and/or sweater would also not be out of place.
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« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2011, 01:01:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From my own limited observations, it seems like few Orthodox men wear formal clothing to church. By this I mean a suit and tie. Folks usually wear at least a nice shirt and slacks, but few wear a coat, and even fewer wear a tie. I even remember reading somewhere that it is not traditional For Orthodox men to wear ties because of vanity.

Thoughts?

ALL the babyboomer aged Ethiopian men dress in complete, 3 and even 5 piece suits, and still even on the hottest day of summer also wear their prayer shawls.  However, the younger men do not.  We either rock what I call the "probation officer" look which is a nice dress shirt, no tie, and slacks with wing-tips or other dress shoes.  Then there is also folks like myself who rock the "teacher" look, white khakis and white patterned dress shirts (wearing all white is the ideal in the Church for Liturgy, especially when Communing).  Some folks even come in very casual, but this is less common, however doesn't seem to frowned upon socially.  I would wear a suit but it seems like it may be a bit pretentious considering all the other younger men do not.  I've only been to the Church once in my life in a shirt without a collar, and that was an accident! Further, we usually wear prayer shawls, both men and women, and so this sort of sanctifies what ever we happen to be wearing.  Church clothes are called "yekit lebs" or clothes that are set aside.



Also, here in the US the suit is going out of style, even the president never rocks it anymore! The probation officer look is in, even for job interviews and weddings.  Even when I'd LIKE to wear a suit (and I have several very nice ones hanging in my closet) it always seems that it would be over-dressed these days. When a good friend of mine was going through some Family Court drama, all the folks thought I was his lawyer because my suit was so nice.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #62 on: December 07, 2011, 01:24:26 PM »

Also, here in the US the suit is going out of style, even the president never rocks it anymore!

Spend some time walking the streets of NYC, Boston, or DC, and you will see quite the contrary. Speaking from experience of taking the NYC Subway daily, and the DC Metro at times, most men are dressed in suits.
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« Reply #63 on: December 07, 2011, 01:35:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Also, here in the US the suit is going out of style, even the president never rocks it anymore!

Spend some time walking the streets of NYC, Boston, or DC, and you will see quite the contrary. Speaking from experience of taking the NYC Subway daily, and the DC Metro at times, most men are dressed in suits.
I stand corrected:)

Let me rephrase that then.. Here on the West Coast the suit is going out of style.  Downtown LA, or in the South Bay, or on the Westside, there are men in suits to be sure, but they are an increasing minority. I ride the Metro so I have a lot of experience in a lot of neighborhoods steadily on foot. I've seen the same kind of vibe in San Francisco, Oakland, San Diego, Portland etc etc..

 And again, the president doesn't even rock a suit anymore! In fact, he takes his jacket off so often I wonder why he even wears a suit, wouldn't he be better off with probation officer look of a nice dress patterned dress shirt with no tie? The white office shirt without a tie and jacket just looks tacky if you as me, and come on, he is the president!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2011, 02:10:36 PM »

I wear a polo and kahkis with nice shoes usually.
I dont have my suit anymore and Im not sure if I would wear it if I did. I kind of look like a Mafia soldier when I do.

PP

We often hear from the more hyper- amongst us that we should dress simply and avoid bringing attention to ourselves.  The bolded outfit is probably the best way to go (for a man) when really trying to strive to follow the quote from St. Cyril posted earlier in this thread.  It's the most innocuous and plain "dress up" outfit which definitely fits the bill of "simple, tasteful, dignified and comfortable," that I mentioned previously as my rule of the thumb.  If on the cool side of things, long sleeve white or blue button down and/or sweater would also not be out of place.
it also helps that my work is directly across the street from my parish which also has PP wearing a polo and khaki Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2011, 04:10:41 PM »

Forgive my ignorance, but how is wearing a short sleeve shirt (such as a polo shirt, or short-sleeved dress shirt) immodest?

Because our muscular arms will obviously cause the women to pant with lust.
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« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2011, 04:34:54 PM »

Because our muscular arms will obviously cause the women to pant with lust.

Seriously?  Undecided

You must have a much younger and muscular group of men in your parish than I do in mine.

To find a man under 50 in my parish is a rare occurrence. Never mind one with bulging muscles!  laugh
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« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2011, 04:56:06 PM »

I live less than a hundred metres from a Church. Sometimes, if wasn't doing too much and I heard the bells ring, I used to get up and head to Church dressed in whatever I happened to be wearing at that moment. I don't do that any more, as the glares of disapproval made doing so too uncomfortable.

Church-going is becoming increasingly upsetting for me these days.
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« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2011, 04:58:08 PM »

Because our muscular arms will obviously cause the women to pant with lust.

Seriously?  Undecided

You must have a much younger and muscular group of men in your parish than I do in mine.

To find a man under 50 in my parish is a rare occurrence. Never mind one with bulging muscles!  laugh

These days, I would be glad to chance upon someone under 40 that hasn't spent the majority of the last few months/years in the gym. Of course, when such people come to Church twice a year, everything is on show. It does happen.
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« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2011, 05:09:59 PM »

I live less than a hundred metres from a Church. Sometimes, if wasn't doing too much and I heard the bells ring, I used to get up and head to Church dressed in whatever I happened to be wearing at that moment. I don't do that any more, as the glares of disapproval made doing so too uncomfortable.

Church-going is becoming increasingly upsetting for me these days.

it's too bad that you're getting upset at church.  just keep in mind that it's a hospital.  the people who are there are sick & in need of remedies & cures.  It also helps to get to know some people at the church & become friends with them.  This will in turn help you when you happen to "slip up" with social graces. 
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« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2011, 05:44:51 PM »

I live less than a hundred metres from a Church. Sometimes, if wasn't doing too much and I heard the bells ring, I used to get up and head to Church dressed in whatever I happened to be wearing at that moment. I don't do that any more, as the glares of disapproval made doing so too uncomfortable.

Church-going is becoming increasingly upsetting for me these days.

it's too bad that you're getting upset at church.  just keep in mind that it's a hospital.  the people who are there are sick & in need of remedies & cures.  It also helps to get to know some people at the church & become friends with them.  This will in turn help you when you happen to "slip up" with social graces. 

Thank you for the encouragement, Father.

I know that by getting upset I am engaging in something of an implicit judgment of everyone else, but it's difficult feeling alienated from your own parish.
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« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2011, 06:10:58 PM »


St John (Maximovitch) the Wonderworker would not allow anyone serving at the altar to wear a tie because to him it signified a hangman's noose, and symbols of death had no place in the sanctuary (it was also reminiscent of Judas' betrayal). 

Ha, I was thinking the same thing.  Christ says to take up our crosses and follow him, not our nooses!  Fitting, this coming from St. John the Wonderworker, a saint I pray to more often than most.
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« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2011, 07:34:03 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

From my own limited observations, it seems like few Orthodox men wear formal clothing to church. By this I mean a suit and tie. Folks usually wear at least a nice shirt and slacks, but few wear a coat, and even fewer wear a tie. I even remember reading somewhere that it is not traditional For Orthodox men to wear ties because of vanity.

Thoughts?

ALL the babyboomer aged Ethiopian men dress in complete, 3 and even 5 piece suits, and still even on the hottest day of summer also wear their prayer shawls.  However, the younger men do not.  We either rock what I call the "probation officer" look which is a nice dress shirt, no tie, and slacks with wing-tips or other dress shoes.  Then there is also folks like myself who rock the "teacher" look, white khakis and white patterned dress shirts (wearing all white is the ideal in the Church for Liturgy, especially when Communing).  Some folks even come in very casual, but this is less common, however doesn't seem to frowned upon socially.  I would wear a suit but it seems like it may be a bit pretentious considering all the other younger men do not.  I've only been to the Church once in my life in a shirt without a collar, and that was an accident! Further, we usually wear prayer shawls, both men and women, and so this sort of sanctifies what ever we happen to be wearing.  Church clothes are called "yekit lebs" or clothes that are set aside.



Also, here in the US the suit is going out of style, even the president never rocks it anymore! The probation officer look is in, even for job interviews and weddings.  Even when I'd LIKE to wear a suit (and I have several very nice ones hanging in my closet) it always seems that it would be over-dressed these days. When a good friend of mine was going through some Family Court drama, all the folks thought I was his lawyer because my suit was so nice.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2011, 09:35:51 PM »

If I owned a suit jacket, I'd wear it on Sundays.  If I could tie a tie properly, I'd wear it on Sundays.  As I don't own a suit jacket and can't properly tie a tie, I wear a dress shirt and dress pants to Liturgy.
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« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2011, 10:26:46 PM »

If I owned a suit jacket, I'd wear it on Sundays.  If I could tie a tie properly, I'd wear it on Sundays.  As I don't own a suit jacket and can't properly tie a tie, I wear a dress shirt and dress pants to Liturgy.
Try this. http://www.neckties.com/content/howtotieatie.html
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« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2011, 10:31:30 PM »

I've seen a range from casual (jeans and a t shirt) to suit and tie in my church. I've personally worn everything from a tie (I do have a couple of decent looking jackets that were given to me, I still need to have them tailored to fit before I can wear them) to the clothes I wore to work (in a factory) the night before. I wore sandals to my chrismation. My priest does send an email out every spring reminding the parish not too dress too immodestly or too casual (shorts are usually mentioned specifically) and another one around football season asking people not to wear their favorite jersey.

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« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2011, 10:49:21 PM »

I've seen a range from casual (jeans and a t shirt) to suit and tie in my church. I've personally worn everything from a tie (I do have a couple of decent looking jackets that were given to me, I still need to have them tailored to fit before I can wear them) to the clothes I wore to work (in a factory) the night before. I wore sandals to my chrismation. My priest does send an email out every spring reminding the parish not too dress too immodestly or too casual (shorts are usually mentioned specifically) and another one around football season asking people not to wear their favorite jersey.
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« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2011, 11:05:55 PM »

Well I go to an OCA Parish in the West Coast of the United States, NorCal to be specific. The weather is usually pretty moderate here, some of the older men wear suits, but most people just wear a dress shirt and some slacks. In the summer they'll wear a short-sleeved dress shirt. As for me, I'm 15, I usually just wear one of my four dress shirts, the same pair of black dress pants every Sunday and Vans shoes. If I owned a suit I would wear it to Liturgy, but, I do not.
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« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2011, 04:15:16 AM »

If I owned a suit jacket, I'd wear it on Sundays.  If I could tie a tie properly, I'd wear it on Sundays.  As I don't own a suit jacket and can't properly tie a tie, I wear a dress shirt and dress pants to Liturgy.
Try this. http://www.neckties.com/content/howtotieatie.html

That site looks like it might actually be useful.
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« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2011, 04:17:00 AM »

Glad I could help.
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« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2011, 04:45:49 AM »

What would you wear in front of CEO?
What would you wear in front of president of USA?
What would you wear in front of God, Creator of Universe, at Church.

My grandpa's generation, for every man there was the Church suit, the best one available. Usually at the death of the person the Church suit and shoes were donated in the name of departed person, thus moving in after life with the departed person. While I had a dream/vision about after life, everybody was wearing the Sunday suit.

Sunday suit was a great deal. Even seeing and playing near it was kind of forbidden as children as to not damage it. Maybe in back of the mind this was the suit for the after life so it had to be in great shape. You get in after life the shape at the moment of giving. So you don't want in Heaven near angels to get in a suit with a hole.

Visualize this. Location heaven. There is a banquet and God is at the front table. Angels and saints are nearby. Then you make an entrance. What do you want to wear? To make sure you are not in a wrong position, you can donate an extra suit for yourself today. I think Men's warehouse gives and extra suit for free, that can be moved right away in great condition to after life, by donating it right away to a person in need. Also you can donate in the name of relatives, children and such, so they have it in Heaven, even in the name ofanybody you want.

At Holy liturgy God is present, coming to give his beloved people Holy Communion for eternal life. Angels and saints are present too.
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« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2011, 10:55:36 AM »

To all those who don't have a suit or a tie, might I recommend my favorite store: Goodwill...
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« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2011, 11:14:40 AM »

Also, here in the US the suit is going out of style, even the president never rocks it anymore!

Spend some time walking the streets of NYC, Boston, or DC, and you will see quite the contrary. Speaking from experience of taking the NYC Subway daily, and the DC Metro at times, most men are dressed in suits.
LOL. NYC/Boston/DC/LA=USA.  Speaking from the Midwest, in the heartland of fly over country, not so.

The other day I was in the midst of a bunch of lawyers arguing (all but one in suits, and the one non-lawyer had three pinky rings) that Blagojevich was not going to get more than 4/5 years, and I (not in a suit) was saying 14 years.  Guess who was right.

That said, I don't know if the suit is going out of style.  I wear one too.
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« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2011, 11:24:02 AM »

I wear a suit and tie with freshly laundered white shirt ironed by myself. If I did not have plenty of these personal items I would endeavor to wear the best I owned. I am not dressing for myself, my fellow worshipers, or the clergy but in respect.
Over the many years I have noted that my Greek parishes always had a more formal, unwritten, dress code and my Slavic parishes less so. But even in parishes with less formal attire, everyone was dressed to the best they could. And you know what? The priests were just delighted that the temple was full in any tradition.
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« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2011, 11:27:07 AM »

What would you wear in front of CEO?
What would you wear in front of president of USA?
What would you wear in front of God, Creator of Universe, at Church.

My grandpa's generation, for every man there was the Church suit, the best one available. Usually at the death of the person the Church suit and shoes were donated in the name of departed person, thus moving in after life with the departed person. While I had a dream/vision about after life, everybody was wearing the Sunday suit.

Sunday suit was a great deal. Even seeing and playing near it was kind of forbidden as children as to not damage it. Maybe in back of the mind this was the suit for the after life so it had to be in great shape. You get in after life the shape at the moment of giving. So you don't want in Heaven near angels to get in a suit with a hole.

Visualize this. Location heaven. There is a banquet and God is at the front table. Angels and saints are nearby. Then you make an entrance. What do you want to wear? To make sure you are not in a wrong position, you can donate an extra suit for yourself today. I think Men's warehouse gives and extra suit for free, that can be moved right away in great condition to after life, by donating it right away to a person in need. Also you can donate in the name of relatives, children and such, so they have it in Heaven, even in the name ofanybody you want.

At Holy liturgy God is present, coming to give his beloved people Holy Communion for eternal life. Angels and saints are present too.

This is actually a great point.  Many stores, especially now, offer buy one get one (or, in the case of Jos. A Bank, buy one, get TWO) free offers.  Thanks for bringing this up!
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« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2011, 11:38:03 AM »

Sometimes we need to be a bit more literal with Scripture. I can't help but think of the literal meaning of the wedding garment parable! One needs to remember where one is when in Church and how to dress. To this day, most of the times I have been to liturgy in ACROD, UOC and OCA in the northeast USA, the 'old fashioned' way of dressing neatly - but not ostentatiously - still prevails. Men with ties, maybe not a suit but a clean sport coat or sweater and women in skirts, some with modest pantsuits.
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« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2011, 11:59:37 AM »

What would you wear in front of CEO?
What would you wear in front of president of USA?
What would you wear in front of God, Creator of Universe, at Church.

My grandpa's generation, for every man there was the Church suit, the best one available. Usually at the death of the person the Church suit and shoes were donated in the name of departed person, thus moving in after life with the departed person. While I had a dream/vision about after life, everybody was wearing the Sunday suit.

Sunday suit was a great deal. Even seeing and playing near it was kind of forbidden as children as to not damage it. Maybe in back of the mind this was the suit for the after life so it had to be in great shape. You get in after life the shape at the moment of giving. So you don't want in Heaven near angels to get in a suit with a hole.

Visualize this. Location heaven. There is a banquet and God is at the front table. Angels and saints are nearby. Then you make an entrance. What do you want to wear? To make sure you are not in a wrong position, you can donate an extra suit for yourself today. I think Men's warehouse gives and extra suit for free, that can be moved right away in great condition to after life, by donating it right away to a person in need. Also you can donate in the name of relatives, children and such, so they have it in Heaven, even in the name ofanybody you want.
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« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2011, 03:50:14 PM »

What would you wear in front of CEO?
What would you wear in front of president of USA?
What would you wear in front of God, Creator of Universe, at Church.

I love those hymns.

Almighty President of the Universe, receive our prayers!
Thrice Holy Elected Official of the Heavenly Federation, have mercy on us!

You know, the president of the USA rarely wears suits himself anymore. A good indicator that he won't be let into the Great Dread and Final Inauguration.
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« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2011, 04:23:21 PM »

I don't think its a question of suits and fedoras, but rather one's mindset in terms of how one views oneself in the presence of the Almighty. T-shirts, flip-flops and torn jeans are not usually viewed as appropriate in our society for functions other than everyday, casual activities. But, if that is all one has, than one should not fear worshiping in them.
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« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2011, 05:24:38 PM »

My personal opinion:

We ought to look our best when entering the house of God. Ideally, our outward appearance should be a reflection of our inward disposition. I think this is a very Orthodox idea. Our priests and bishops are vested in precious materials, to be a reflection of the dignity of their office. Our time period is the first in history when we actually prefer to dress down in public. In our parents' and grandparents' day, you wear suits even when leaving the house. I think this went along with the general seriousness they had with life. Our generation does not know what gravitas is. This era has no room for reverence and propriety, which have been set aside for weddings and graduations, etc.. These are the last remaining reminders of an "other world." We Orthodox, and traditional Christians in general, should be the first to correct this aberration in modern society.

Obviously, the poor should not be looked down upon for what they can and cannot afford. But this is something the Church has had to deal with from the very beginning. This ought not be an excuse to come to Church indecently. Notice that the poor still want to wear their best, like the widow who offered her two pennies. An yet we, who can bring ten bags of gold, offer the same two pennies.

The argument that since holy fools and monks dress poorly, we should do the same seems rather absurd to me. We should seek to imitate their humility. Sometimes humility means conforming to propriety. If anyone is inspired to take up the monastic habit, then good for them obviously, but the habit does not the monk make. And over-exaggerated humility is one of the best ways to fall in delusion.
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« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2011, 05:54:34 PM »

My great-grandmother never left the house to go "downtown" without dressing nicely, including hat and gloves, even if only to go to the dime store or to pay the electric bill.

And she worked in a cotton mill and lived in a shotgun house in the mill village.

As far as the poor dressing in their best, I have noticed the same thing in our parish. We have some homeless people who show up sporadically, but they always make an effort to be as clean and presentable as they can be.

I don't get this "the president isn't wearing suits anymore," either since most of the time when I see President Obama on tv, he is wearing a suit - he most certainly wears a suit when it's an important occasion.

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« Reply #91 on: December 08, 2011, 06:33:09 PM »

My personal opinion:

We ought to look our best when entering the house of God. Ideally, our outward appearance should be a reflection of our inward disposition. I think this is a very Orthodox idea. Our priests and bishops are vested in precious materials, to be a reflection of the dignity of their office. Our time period is the first in history when we actually prefer to dress down in public. In our parents' and grandparents' day, you wear suits even when leaving the house. I think this went along with the general seriousness they had with life. Our generation does not know what gravitas is. This era has no room for reverence and propriety, which have been set aside for weddings and graduations, etc.. These are the last remaining reminders of an "other world." We Orthodox, and traditional Christians in general, should be the first to correct this aberration in modern society.

Obviously, the poor should not be looked down upon for what they can and cannot afford. But this is something the Church has had to deal with from the very beginning. This ought not be an excuse to come to Church indecently. Notice that the poor still want to wear their best, like the widow who offered her two pennies. An yet we, who can bring ten bags of gold, offer the same two pennies.

The argument that since holy fools and monks dress poorly, we should do the same seems rather absurd to me. We should seek to imitate their humility. Sometimes humility means conforming to propriety. If anyone is inspired to take up the monastic habit, then good for them obviously, but the habit does not the monk make. And over-exaggerated humility is one of the best ways to fall in delusion.

Wonderfuly expressed! I wholeheartedly agree with you.
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« Reply #92 on: December 08, 2011, 08:06:54 PM »

My personal opinion:

We ought to look our best when entering the house of God. Ideally, our outward appearance should be a reflection of our inward disposition. I think this is a very Orthodox idea. Our priests and bishops are vested in precious materials, to be a reflection of the dignity of their office. Our time period is the first in history when we actually prefer to dress down in public. In our parents' and grandparents' day, you wear suits even when leaving the house. I think this went along with the general seriousness they had with life. Our generation does not know what gravitas is. This era has no room for reverence and propriety, which have been set aside for weddings and graduations, etc.. These are the last remaining reminders of an "other world." We Orthodox, and traditional Christians in general, should be the first to correct this aberration in modern society.

Obviously, the poor should not be looked down upon for what they can and cannot afford. But this is something the Church has had to deal with from the very beginning. This ought not be an excuse to come to Church indecently. Notice that the poor still want to wear their best, like the widow who offered her two pennies. An yet we, who can bring ten bags of gold, offer the same two pennies.

The argument that since holy fools and monks dress poorly, we should do the same seems rather absurd to me. We should seek to imitate their humility. Sometimes humility means conforming to propriety. If anyone is inspired to take up the monastic habit, then good for them obviously, but the habit does not the monk make. And over-exaggerated humility is one of the best ways to fall in delusion.

Wonderfuly expressed! I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Excellent points re dignity of living.

Speaking of the "other world" and the remembrance thereof, I must say that I can't think of any mode of clothing more symbolic of this world and its values than the business suit, especially one starkly pin-striped, accompanied by a sharp tie and some polished shoes.
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« Reply #93 on: December 08, 2011, 08:25:07 PM »

I don't believe suits somehow translate into being better dressed for God.

If anything, I'd rather be naked.
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« Reply #94 on: December 08, 2011, 08:34:54 PM »

I ain't even getting put into a suit when I am placed whatever container holds my body at my repose.

Doing the work of God ain't going to a job interview or anything else wordly where their values of vanity reign.

Plus there are many practical reasons for Christians not to be wearing expensive clothes or cheap clothes impersonating expensive clothes.

Unless you are showing up for some sort of Gala for God.

It is time to work. I don't work in a suit.

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« Reply #95 on: December 08, 2011, 08:39:25 PM »

Speaking of the "other world" and the remembrance thereof, I must say that I can't think of any mode of clothing more symbolic of this world and its values than the business suit, especially one starkly pin-striped, accompanied by a sharp tie and some polished shoes.

I agree. On days where I have to wear a suit because of some meeting at university, I will always change to something less showy if I go to church later that day. The only days of the year I'd wear one to church are Christmas and Easter, just to avoid standing out or offending those who consider other attire improper.
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« Reply #96 on: December 08, 2011, 08:48:33 PM »

I'll reveal a secret here: I'm jealous of the altar servers because they get to wear awesome vestments. The subdeacons wear black robes. They look like judges.  Cheesy
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« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2011, 10:57:33 PM »

I will say that bluejeans hanging out from underneath vestments or cassocks is TACKY.
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« Reply #98 on: December 08, 2011, 11:18:26 PM »

Speaking of the "other world" and the remembrance thereof, I must say that I can't think of any mode of clothing more symbolic of this world and its values than the business suit, especially one starkly pin-striped, accompanied by a sharp tie and some polished shoes.

There is a difference between being well dressed and being flashy.

You know it and I know it.

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« Reply #99 on: December 08, 2011, 11:26:53 PM »

I will say that bluejeans hanging out from underneath vestments or cassocks is TACKY.

True story no.1:

Lad in his late teens, college student, senior altarboy, and epistle reader. The Metropolitan of ROCOR was visiting his city, and there was a Vigil to be served on a weeknight. Being senior altarboy, he knew he had to be there on time. But he had a late lecture that day: so, should he skip the lecture, leaving him plenty of time to ride his bike home, change, and ride to church? Or should he go to the lecture, and ride straight to church? His mother, a church singer herself, and his grandmother, the head of the church women's group, left it up to him.

The lad went to the late lecture, then rode like mad to the church. He got there on time, and served as was proper. In jeans under his stikharion. At a service where the Metropolitan of ROCOR was in attendance.

True story no. 2:

Lad in his early twenties, going through a rebellious phase, dresses like a cross between a rock god and a Goth (though without the makeup, thank God). Turns up under sufferance to serve in the altar on a Sunday morning, in black trousers tucked into chunky calf-length boots sporting several broad side-straps inserted into large silver buckles. He has a habit of standing with legs quite apart. The boots and straps are clearly visible in the side splits of his stikharion.

Which is tackier, Alveus?
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« Reply #100 on: December 08, 2011, 11:48:17 PM »

Speaking of the "other world" and the remembrance thereof, I must say that I can't think of any mode of clothing more symbolic of this world and its values than the business suit, especially one starkly pin-striped, accompanied by a sharp tie and some polished shoes.

There is a difference between being well dressed and being flashy.

You know it and I know it.

Yes, and sometimes one justifies itself by masquerading as the other: that's all I'm on guard against.
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« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2011, 02:13:17 AM »

I will say that bluejeans hanging out from underneath vestments or cassocks is TACKY.
And grounds for dismissal.  One girl used to serve at our parish and I nearly croaked when I saw her wearing that short jean skirt.  At least she wore a cassock over it.  On the other hand, when a woman reader went forward and made the profound "bow", if I noticed I always watched my children's directed view to insure I covered their eyes before the show started.  I'm surprised no one tried to stick a dollar on her skirt... or whatever that was. 

As far as dressing tasteful and appropriate.  The wearing of ties is really not as important as dressing modestly.  I realize that sometimes people come to mass in the middle of vacation or find themselves out of place.  That's why I think a cover of sorts might not be a bad idea in some situations.  Ever seen a young girl show up in a bathing suit and flipflops?   
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« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2011, 03:02:47 AM »

What would you wear in front of CEO?
What would you wear in front of president of USA?
What would you wear in front of God, Creator of Universe, at Church.

I love those hymns.

Almighty President of the Universe, receive our prayers!
Thrice Holy Elected Official of the Heavenly Federation, have mercy on us!

You know, the president of the USA rarely wears suits himself anymore. A good indicator that he won't be let into the Great Dread and Final Inauguration.

Keep posting.  I desire more laughter.
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« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2011, 03:07:30 AM »

I ain't even getting put into a suit when I am placed whatever container holds my body at my repose.

Doing the work of God ain't going to a job interview or anything else wordly where their values of vanity reign.

Plus there are many practical reasons for Christians not to be wearing expensive clothes or cheap clothes impersonating expensive clothes.

Unless you are showing up for some sort of Gala for God.

It is time to work. I don't work in a suit.

I hope to be buried, with my body wrapped in a couple of (preferably old) towels, in the cheapest coffin possible.  I see little reason to put perfectly good, nice clothing into the ground, and to do so in an expensive, elaborate box.
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« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2011, 04:56:17 AM »

i see a good representation of suits and ties at my parish. i dont wear one, primarily becuase i dont have one.

I have a total of one suit. I only wear it to Liturgy on Christmas, Pascha, or the other Great Feasts. Other than that it's one of my three dress shirts and a pair of black jeans. That said, if I had the expendable income, I might start wearing suits more often.
I support suits. Just a general statement, if anyone cares...

I have not paid too much attention to the suit and tie bit, but I know that Orthodox are more formal than some.
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« Reply #105 on: December 10, 2011, 04:05:03 AM »

I ain't even getting put into a suit when I am placed whatever container holds my body at my repose.

Doing the work of God ain't going to a job interview or anything else wordly where their values of vanity reign.

Plus there are many practical reasons for Christians not to be wearing expensive clothes or cheap clothes impersonating expensive clothes.

Unless you are showing up for some sort of Gala for God.

It is time to work. I don't work in a suit.

I hope to be buried, with my body wrapped in a couple of (preferably old) towels, in the cheapest coffin possible.  I see little reason to put perfectly good, nice clothing into the ground, and to do so in an expensive, elaborate box.

My dad used to always tell me to throw him in a plain wooden box as quick as possible and start praying for him immediately.  When he died and I was now the eldest, not by choice, I had that option.  As much as I wanted to honor his request, I couldn't bear the thought of them cramming his legs in the military style coffin.  He was 6'4" and the box was about 6'.  When I was planning on doing it anyway, in my embarrassment, my 2nd cousins, very wealthy, offered to pay for his entire funeral.  I was re leaved and picked an appropriate coffin his size as modest as I could find.  I kept everything simple, even allowed a Catholic Mass, even though I was quite anti-Catholic at the time.  I was determined, that in spite my anger towards him and his poor treatment of me, to treat him with as much respect as I could, in between the my cursing at him.  Both my parents and my brother left a lot of baggage in my life to sift through.  I was very thankful for my cousins.  One owns a company worth over $350 million and the other, other than having a bug named after him, is well known in the environmental restoration industry in Alabama.  I was brainwashed with the silly idea that dressing for success is how you make it.  Not true at all.  I'm the geek that went to school wearing slacks.  I was a seminarian and dressed well in the seminary when the guys were all wearing jeans, shorts, and flipflops.  Thankfully, now, they are required to dress a bit better.

I really want to be buried in a box too.  I'm not nearly as tall as my father and would fit fine.  I feel that I earned it and it can easily be covered with a nice cloth of sorts, maybe a cross of sorts like the Musketeers.  Wink  OO OOO... I just thought of it.  I could be buried in a Musketeer uniform.  Fleur de Lis.  A must with my French heritage that precedes the Louisiana Purchase.  I'm "blue blood"... Wink
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« Reply #106 on: December 10, 2011, 02:35:32 PM »

I wear what I always wear when I am in Church.  I usually wear neutral colored shirts with pockets and neutral colored pants.  "Flashy" for me would be if I wear something that is not Tan, Green or Black.  I have never had any use for a suit and tie.  I was asked once by a manager why I did not wear a tie, and I told him that I had no need of one.  I see a tie much like the string on a feminine hygiene product, it is only of use to get something out of somewhere - in the case of Management, their hind end.  After that, I noticed a lot fewer Supervisors and Managers wearing ties, even if they kept the jacket. I wear clothes to be comfortable and to fulfil a purpose.  I do not wear them to project some kind of an image.  I do not like the vestments worn in Church, and I much perfer my black Gibi when I serve at the altar.  My priest has blessed me to wear it, and I am happy for that. One of the reasons that I have delayed seeking ordination as a Subdeacon (which is what the Priest would like me to do) is that I will have to spend hundreds of dollars on vestments so that I can look like Liberace instead of simply wearing my black robe.  What a waste of money, particularly in these times when it could be put to such better use.  But, I guess the poor will always be with us . . . 

As to being concerned about what I wear before God - what a joke.  God knows everything and sees everything.  He knows what I am and he knows my sins.  I see no reason to gild a turd.  If anything, I would think that to attempt such would be insulting to him.  As to wearing shorts and tee shirts to Church, I never wear such anywhere, so there is no danger of me wearing them to Church.  Quite frankly, I am far more bothered by the women who disrespect God by refusing to follow His Scriptural command to cover their heads in Church than I am with what else they or the men wear.  And even then, that is between them and God and not between them and me.  Our Priest will not confess or commune a woman who's head is uncovered, and I always keep a scarf nearby or under my Gibi in case the issue comes up (which it does when some New-Calendarists visit) so that there is not a scene and nobody is embarrassed.
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« Reply #107 on: December 10, 2011, 02:40:29 PM »

I ain't even getting put into a suit when I am placed whatever container holds my body at my repose.

Doing the work of God ain't going to a job interview or anything else wordly where their values of vanity reign.

Plus there are many practical reasons for Christians not to be wearing expensive clothes or cheap clothes impersonating expensive clothes.

Unless you are showing up for some sort of Gala for God.

It is time to work. I don't work in a suit.


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« Reply #108 on: December 10, 2011, 05:08:34 PM »

So for all the charges that suits (and clothing consciousness in general) represent superficiality and worldliness, why do our clergy have standardized, formal, arguably showy and impractical vestments?  Does this hinder them from doing the work of the people?

My point is that the Church clearly doesn't share the view that clothing (and how we appear before God during His services) is unimportant and "worldly." Not only is it a tradition from the Temple days, but it's part of our complete worship, including sights, sounds, smells, etc.

I'm not saying that a suit is the same as vestments, but I think the whole "I'll wear whatever I want, so long as its comfortable" argument works better for the Evango crowd with their bluejean wearing ministers and anti-sacramental services. There is a certain intrinsic formality to the Church and its services, and I think that wearing something fairly decent is compatible with that. 

As others have stated though, modesty (true modesty is one thing. Stubbornness, laziness, and apathy is quite another) is the most important thing.  So while a flashy, expensive suit/dress, shoes/heels are inappropriate, so are shorts, t-shirts (short sleeved shirts in general). That's certainly part of how monasteries and many parishes here and in the "old countries" interpret modesty.   
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« Reply #109 on: December 10, 2011, 06:50:02 PM »

I will say that bluejeans hanging out from underneath vestments or cassocks is TACKY.

True story no.1:

Lad in his late teens, college student, senior altarboy, and epistle reader. The Metropolitan of ROCOR was visiting his city, and there was a Vigil to be served on a weeknight. Being senior altarboy, he knew he had to be there on time. But he had a late lecture that day: so, should he skip the lecture, leaving him plenty of time to ride his bike home, change, and ride to church? Or should he go to the lecture, and ride straight to church? His mother, a church singer herself, and his grandmother, the head of the church women's group, left it up to him.

The lad went to the late lecture, then rode like mad to the church. He got there on time, and served as was proper. In jeans under his stikharion.

Does anyone here suggest he should have gone home and changed first?
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« Reply #110 on: December 10, 2011, 07:27:45 PM »

About the only time that men wear suits in my parish is for the Paschal liturgy.  Most people do not dress up in Montana.  A lot of men wear jeans to church (nice ones though).  I guarantee you that I am not going to wear a dress or skirt to services when it is -20 (or more outside, and it gets this low without the wind chill figured in). 
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« Reply #111 on: December 10, 2011, 07:35:27 PM »


St John (Maximovitch) the Wonderworker would not allow anyone serving at the altar to wear a tie because to him it signified a hangman's noose, and symbols of death had no place in the sanctuary (it was also reminiscent of Judas' betrayal). 

I know that my father always considered ties to be torture devices, even though he had to wear one all the time since he was in the Air Force and a tie was part of his uniform.  By the way, St. John Maximovitch usually wore sandals to serve and often served barefoot, especially when he was in China, because he would have given his sandals away on his walk to the cathedral because he would give them to a poor man who had no shoes.
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« Reply #112 on: December 10, 2011, 10:39:08 PM »

About the only time that men wear suits in my parish is for the Paschal liturgy.  Most people do not dress up in Montana.   

So the regular liturgies aren't worth it, but the Paschal one is?

Quote
I guarantee you that I am not going to wear a dress or skirt to services when it is -20 (or more outside, and it gets this low without the wind chill figured in).

It gets cold in Russia too. police  Grin

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« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2011, 11:09:01 PM »

I wear what I always wear when I am in Church.  I usually wear neutral colored shirts with pockets and neutral colored pants.  "Flashy" for me would be if I wear something that is not Tan, Green or Black.  I have never had any use for a suit and tie.  I was asked once by a manager why I did not wear a tie, and I told him that I had no need of one.  I see a tie much like the string on a feminine hygiene product, it is only of use to get something out of somewhere - in the case of Management, their hind end.  After that, I noticed a lot fewer Supervisors and Managers wearing ties, even if they kept the jacket. I wear clothes to be comfortable and to fulfil a purpose.  I do not wear them to project some kind of an image.  I do not like the vestments worn in Church, and I much perfer my black Gibi when I serve at the altar.  My priest has blessed me to wear it, and I am happy for that. One of the reasons that I have delayed seeking ordination as a Subdeacon (which is what the Priest would like me to do) is that I will have to spend hundreds of dollars on vestments so that I can look like Liberace instead of simply wearing my black robe.  What a waste of money, particularly in these times when it could be put to such better use.  But, I guess the poor will always be with us . . . 

Actually, you do.  You just explained what your sartorial choices are and why you chose them which project a certain image.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that you don't care about what you wear.  You plainly do.
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« Reply #114 on: December 10, 2011, 11:17:40 PM »

I tend to think everyone does.
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« Reply #115 on: December 10, 2011, 11:19:47 PM »

I tend to think everyone does.

Not everyone admits it, though, and they are, IMHO, just as bad, if not worse, than those who are at least honest with their feelings while looking down from their high horse.  The former act as if they don't even own such a steed, let alone ride one.
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« Reply #116 on: December 10, 2011, 11:24:53 PM »

I do not wear them to project some kind of an image.   

Actually, you do.  You just explained what your sartorial choices are and why you chose them which project a certain image.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that you don't care about what you wear.  You plainly do.

Yep. You (Punch) have gone out of your way not to wear the normally accepted garb for serving. Claiming that as modest would be a stretch.  

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I do not like the vestments worn in Church, and I much perfer my black Gibi when I serve at the altar...  One of the reasons that I have delayed seeking ordination as a Subdeacon (which is what the Priest would like me to do) is that I will have to spend hundreds of dollars on vestments so that I can look like Liberace instead of simply wearing my black robe.

Continue doing whatever you think is best, while trashing traditions of the Church.  Roll Eyes You highlighted my point though, that the Church thinks that clothing serves a purpose and, on some level, matters.

Maybe I think the melody of some of our hymns are lousy, so I'll just chant what I prefer.
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« Reply #117 on: December 10, 2011, 11:55:15 PM »

About the only time that men wear suits in my parish is for the Paschal liturgy.  Most people do not dress up in Montana.   
So the regular liturgies aren't worth it, but the Paschal one is?

Are you saying that Pascha is just another sunday?
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« Reply #118 on: December 11, 2011, 12:14:29 AM »

About the only time that men wear suits in my parish is for the Paschal liturgy.  Most people do not dress up in Montana.   
So the regular liturgies aren't worth it, but the Paschal one is?

Are you saying that Pascha is just another sunday?

Nope, but the Lord is present at all Divine Liturgies.
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« Reply #119 on: December 11, 2011, 01:46:17 AM »

I tend to think everyone does.

Not everyone admits it, though, and they are, IMHO, just as bad, if not worse, than those who are at least honest with their feelings while looking down from their high horse.  The former act as if they don't even own such a steed, let alone ride one.
Hey, I pay good money for my horse.  Let me ride it with style. Grin
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« Reply #120 on: December 11, 2011, 09:39:39 PM »

I do not like the vestments worn in Church, and I much perfer my black Gibi when I serve at the altar.  My priest has blessed me to wear it, and I am happy for that. One of the reasons that I have delayed seeking ordination as a Subdeacon (which is what the Priest would like me to do) is that I will have to spend hundreds of dollars on vestments so that I can look like Liberace instead of simply wearing my black robe.  What a waste of money, particularly in these times when it could be put to such better use.  But, I guess the poor will always be with us . . . 

As to being concerned about what I wear before God - what a joke.  God knows everything and sees everything.  He knows what I am and he knows my sins.  I see no reason to gild a turd.  If anything, I would think that to attempt such would be insulting to him.  As to wearing shorts and tee shirts to Church, I never wear such anywhere, so there is no danger of me wearing them to Church.  Quite frankly, I am far more bothered by the women who disrespect God by refusing to follow His Scriptural command to cover their heads in Church than I am with what else they or the men wear.  And even then, that is between them and God and not between them and me.  Our Priest will not confess or commune a woman who's head is uncovered, and I always keep a scarf nearby or under my Gibi in case the issue comes up (which it does when some New-Calendarists visit) so that there is not a scene and nobody is embarrassed.

There's a dichotomy between scriptural commands (head coverings) and traditional ones (vestments)?
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« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2011, 10:26:35 PM »

Quote
There's a dichotomy between scriptural commands (head coverings) and traditional ones (vestments)?

Excellent point! Sola scriptura in reverse!
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« Reply #122 on: December 11, 2011, 10:42:28 PM »

Excellent point! Sola scriptura in reverse!

Arutpircs alos!
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« Reply #123 on: December 11, 2011, 10:49:40 PM »

Excellent point! Sola scriptura in reverse!

Arutpircs alos!

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« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2011, 11:18:29 PM »

Quite frankly, I am far more bothered by the women who disrespect God by refusing to follow His Scriptural command to cover their heads in Church than I am with what else they or the men wear.

Are you bothered by the men who disrespect God by refusing to follow his Scriptural command to keep their hair cut short, particularly traditional clergy?
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« Reply #125 on: December 11, 2011, 11:29:42 PM »

Quite frankly, I am far more bothered by the women who disrespect God by refusing to follow His Scriptural command to cover their heads in Church than I am with what else they or the men wear.

Are you bothered by the men who disrespect God by refusing to follow his Scriptural command to keep their hair cut short, particularly traditional clergy?

Not to mention to keep their heads uncovered.

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« Reply #126 on: December 11, 2011, 11:30:39 PM »

Quite frankly, I am far more bothered by the women who disrespect God by refusing to follow His Scriptural command to cover their heads in Church than I am with what else they or the men wear.

Are you bothered by the men who disrespect God by refusing to follow his Scriptural command to keep their hair cut short, particularly traditional clergy?

You may wish to look at what St Paul wrote in the original Greek. The word he used for men's hair was not the word for short, but for, to use a modern equivalent, coiffed. There is quite a difference between these words, even today.

If nothing else, look at the great number of early saints and apostles, clerics and laymen, who are depicted in their icons with short hair. That, alone, speaks volumes.
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« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2011, 11:30:44 PM »

I'm poor. I go to church in jeans because they are literally the nicest pants I have right now. If the people who come in the fancy sports cars, wearing expensive watches and tailored suits want to get huffy about it, they can devote some of their apparently quite ample wealth to helping my family make ends meet until we have enough of a surplus for me to purchase vanity clothing.  Cheesy

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« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2011, 11:32:38 PM »

I'm poor. I go to church in jeans because they are literally the nicest pants I have right now. If the people who come in the fancy sports cars, wearing expensive watches and tailored suits want to get huffy about it, they can devote some of their apparently quite ample wealth to helping my family make ends meet until we have enough of a surplus for me to purchase vanity clothing.  Cheesy



Look at my earlier post on the two altarboys and their choices in clothing.
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« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2011, 11:37:15 PM »

I'm poor. I go to church in jeans because they are literally the nicest pants I have right now. If the people who come in the fancy sports cars, wearing expensive watches and tailored suits want to get huffy about it, they can devote some of their apparently quite ample wealth to helping my family make ends meet until we have enough of a surplus for me to purchase vanity clothing.  Cheesy



Look at my earlier post on the two altarboys and their choices in clothing.

I noticed it already. What about it?
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« Reply #130 on: December 12, 2011, 11:39:50 AM »

I do not wear them to project some kind of an image.   

Actually, you do.  You just explained what your sartorial choices are and why you chose them which project a certain image.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that you don't care about what you wear.  You plainly do.

Yep. You (Punch) have gone out of your way not to wear the normally accepted garb for serving. Claiming that as modest would be a stretch.  

Quote
I do not like the vestments worn in Church, and I much perfer my black Gibi when I serve at the altar...  One of the reasons that I have delayed seeking ordination as a Subdeacon (which is what the Priest would like me to do) is that I will have to spend hundreds of dollars on vestments so that I can look like Liberace instead of simply wearing my black robe.

Continue doing whatever you think is best, while trashing traditions of the Church.  Roll Eyes You highlighted my point though, that the Church thinks that clothing serves a purpose and, on some level, matters.

Maybe I think the melody of some of our hymns are lousy, so I'll just chant what I prefer.

Actually, I've had to endure cantors who think that way over the years!!!! Wink Wink
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« Reply #131 on: December 12, 2011, 11:43:19 AM »

Seriously, it seems to me that point ought to be that we be respectful at all times and mindful of our purpose in being at Liturgy or other services at our churches. We had a good crowd yesterday morning and the choir didn't sing, so we were downstairs. I couldn't help but notice as the congregation was leaving Liturgy, that although suits and ties were in the distinct minority (as opposed to twenty or thirty years ago), that everyone,women, men and children, were dressed modestly and appeared respectful of their purposes in being there. What more would we expect, or ask, from people? I know that the priest is glad that they are there!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 11:44:31 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #132 on: December 12, 2011, 12:50:08 PM »

I would be if that is what he said, but since he did not I have nothing to be bothered about.  I believe that the correct wording was adequately discussed above. 


Quite frankly, I am far more bothered by the women who disrespect God by refusing to follow His Scriptural command to cover their heads in Church than I am with what else they or the men wear.

Are you bothered by the men who disrespect God by refusing to follow his Scriptural command to keep their hair cut short, particularly traditional clergy?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 01:14:51 PM by Punch » Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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