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Author Topic: A question about Pope Leo III  (Read 1170 times) Average Rating: 0
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primuspilus
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« on: December 06, 2011, 02:41:36 PM »

If Pope Leo III agreed with the 7th council, why did he crown a heretic emperor? I've often wondered this since Charlemagne was a pretty staunch iconoclast.

Also, Leo was not the biggest fan of the filioque so I really am confused.....

I would like some clarification plz.

PP
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 03:17:21 PM »

Because God willed it through the vicar of Christ.

duh.  Wink



Seriously, people do all sorts of uncharacteristic things when they have a knife pressing against their back.
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 03:40:36 PM »

Because God willed it through the vicar of Christ.

duh.  Wink



Seriously, people do all sorts of uncharacteristic things when they have a knife pressing against their back.

I can understand that, but it just seemed really uncharacteristic. I've often thought about it but I always forgot to ask till today, since it is very boring here at work 'n all Smiley

PP
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 04:12:42 PM »

Also, Leo was not the biggest fan of the filioque
He didn't want it in the creed, but theologically I think he was fine with it.
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 04:16:28 PM »

Also, Leo was not the biggest fan of the filioque
He didn't want it in the creed, but theologically I think he was fine with it.
Thats the whole crux of it is that it was added to the creed.

PP
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 04:18:51 PM »

Because God willed it through the vicar of Christ.

duh.  Wink



Seriously, people do all sorts of uncharacteristic things when they have a knife pressing against their back.


I've read histories where there seemed to be accounts indicating much mutual respect between the two...

I don't think it was at all a relationship of fear, much less over-weaning fear on the part of the pope or the Church.

At least that is how I have read it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 04:19:35 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 04:28:36 PM »

Because God willed it through the vicar of Christ.

duh.  Wink



Seriously, people do all sorts of uncharacteristic things when they have a knife pressing against their back.


I've read histories where there seemed to be accounts indicating much mutual respect between the two...

I don't think it was at all a relationship of fear, much less over-weaning fear on the part of the pope or the Church.

At least that is how I have read it.
But what Im having trouble with is really 2 things:

1. Pope Leo III agreed with the 7th council (obviously). Charlemagne worked very hard to refute it. That alone should he not have been anathematized?

2. The Pope did not want the creed changed to add the filioque yet Charlemagne persecuted those who did not acknowledge the filioque, even executed some who did not.

I find this very disturbing.

PP
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2011, 04:48:14 PM »

Because God willed it through the vicar of Christ.

duh.  Wink



Seriously, people do all sorts of uncharacteristic things when they have a knife pressing against their back.


I've read histories where there seemed to be accounts indicating much mutual respect between the two...

I don't think it was at all a relationship of fear, much less over-weaning fear on the part of the pope or the Church.

At least that is how I have read it.
But what Im having trouble with is really 2 things:

1. Pope Leo III agreed with the 7th council (obviously). Charlemagne worked very hard to refute it. That alone should he not have been anathematized?

2. The Pope did not want the creed changed to add the filioque yet Charlemagne persecuted those who did not acknowledge the filioque, even executed some who did not.

I find this very disturbing.

PP

Once the pope realized that the problem was a lack of accurate communication to Charlemagne, he then endeavored to point out the errors and Charlemagne yielded.

The issue concerning the filioque added to the western creed is far more complicated.  By the time Pope St. Leo got to it, filioque had been in use for some time, with an entire theology to explain it, and why it was necessary to use.  Pope Leo had no quarrel with it on theological grounds.
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2011, 05:22:02 PM »

The West was a land of barbarism teetering on the edge of the brink. The East was not much better. In 99 percent of cases, the events of history do not fit into our preconceived notions, mostly because these notions are based on the simplicity of reductionism. What will help, perhaps, to shed light on the situation is more research. Filioque, though condemned at Constantinople in the ninth century (long after the crowning of Charlemagne and death of Pope St. Leo III, btw), was not an issue that would divide East and West until two hundred years later. Even then, it was rather academic. With regard to iconoclasm, in St. Leo's day, the East had barely put iconoclasm to rest once and for all. The ultimate victory of icon veneration was still decades away. There were plenty of bishops who were hard-core iconoclasts. It is important to understand the dynamics. In the West, there was circulating a mistranslation of the acts of the 7th ecumenical council which said icon veneration was worship, not that it was not. So, we have confusion at the time and confusion at the present looking back in time to what little evidence remains of the past. Discretion is needed.
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 05:46:02 PM »

Most likey I agree with Schultz, I usually do in these cases, he's spot on in less words than I
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 05:55:57 PM »

Because God willed it through the vicar of Christ.

duh.  Wink



Seriously, people do all sorts of uncharacteristic things when they have a knife pressing against their back.


I've read histories where there seemed to be accounts indicating much mutual respect between the two...

I don't think it was at all a relationship of fear, much less over-weaning fear on the part of the pope or the Church.

At least that is how I have read it.
But what Im having trouble with is really 2 things:

1. Pope Leo III agreed with the 7th council (obviously). Charlemagne worked very hard to refute it. That alone should he not have been anathematized?

2. The Pope did not want the creed changed to add the filioque yet Charlemagne persecuted those who did not acknowledge the filioque, even executed some who did not.

I find this very disturbing.

PP

Once the pope realized that the problem was a lack of accurate communication to Charlemagne, he then endeavored to point out the errors and Charlemagne yielded.

The issue concerning the filioque added to the western creed is far more complicated.  By the time Pope St. Leo got to it, filioque had been in use for some time, with an entire theology to explain it, and why it was necessary to use.  Pope Leo had no quarrel with it on theological grounds.

Do you have source material for that? I'd like to read about Charlemagne abandoning iconnoclasm.


Also, I am willing to concede that the Pope had no theological disagreement with filioque, but its something totally different to insert it into the creed, which he did not want. Again, if im wrong, I'd be interested on learning more about it.

PP
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 06:06:36 PM »

Because God willed it through the vicar of Christ.

duh.  Wink



Seriously, people do all sorts of uncharacteristic things when they have a knife pressing against their back.


I've read histories where there seemed to be accounts indicating much mutual respect between the two...

I don't think it was at all a relationship of fear, much less over-weaning fear on the part of the pope or the Church.

At least that is how I have read it.
But what Im having trouble with is really 2 things:

1. Pope Leo III agreed with the 7th council (obviously). Charlemagne worked very hard to refute it. That alone should he not have been anathematized?

2. The Pope did not want the creed changed to add the filioque yet Charlemagne persecuted those who did not acknowledge the filioque, even executed some who did not.

I find this very disturbing.

PP

Once the pope realized that the problem was a lack of accurate communication to Charlemagne, he then endeavored to point out the errors and Charlemagne yielded.

The issue concerning the filioque added to the western creed is far more complicated.  By the time Pope St. Leo got to it, filioque had been in use for some time, with an entire theology to explain it, and why it was necessary to use.  Pope Leo had no quarrel with it on theological grounds.

Do you have source material for that? I'd like to read about Charlemagne abandoning iconnoclasm.


Also, I am willing to concede that the Pope had no theological disagreement with filioque, but its something totally different to insert it into the creed, which he did not want. Again, if im wrong, I'd be interested on learning more about it.

PP

Its been a while.  I don't think that Charlemagne was an iconoclast.  I do know that he resisted, rightly so, the worship of images.  He came from a cultural tradition that worshiped a tree, and he baptized them by the sword, so you might suspect that he'd be pretty nervous about a document that indicated that one was now to worship images made by human hands...no?

I will see what I can find on-line.  Might take a while.

M.
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 06:41:13 PM »

Because God willed it through the vicar of Christ.

duh.  Wink



Seriously, people do all sorts of uncharacteristic things when they have a knife pressing against their back.


I've read histories where there seemed to be accounts indicating much mutual respect between the two...

I don't think it was at all a relationship of fear, much less over-weaning fear on the part of the pope or the Church.

At least that is how I have read it.
But what Im having trouble with is really 2 things:

1. Pope Leo III agreed with the 7th council (obviously). Charlemagne worked very hard to refute it. That alone should he not have been anathematized?

2. The Pope did not want the creed changed to add the filioque yet Charlemagne persecuted those who did not acknowledge the filioque, even executed some who did not.

I find this very disturbing.

PP

Once the pope realized that the problem was a lack of accurate communication to Charlemagne, he then endeavored to point out the errors and Charlemagne yielded.

The issue concerning the filioque added to the western creed is far more complicated.  By the time Pope St. Leo got to it, filioque had been in use for some time, with an entire theology to explain it, and why it was necessary to use.  Pope Leo had no quarrel with it on theological grounds.

Do you have source material for that? I'd like to read about Charlemagne abandoning iconnoclasm.


Also, I am willing to concede that the Pope had no theological disagreement with filioque, but its something totally different to insert it into the creed, which he did not want. Again, if im wrong, I'd be interested on learning more about it.

PP

Its been a while.  I don't think that Charlemagne was an iconoclast.  I do know that he resisted, rightly so, the worship of images.  He came from a cultural tradition that worshiped a tree, and he baptized them by the sword, so you might suspect that he'd be pretty nervous about a document that indicated that one was now to worship images made by human hands...no?

I will see what I can find on-line.  Might take a while.

M.

And, to add to historical context, iconoclasm in the east was not begun as a violent reaction to people just going about their business and piously venerating images. There were plenty of recorded abuses bordering on if not actually becoming image worship. Things were getting out of hand and needed correction. The iconoclasts, of course, went way too far (as so often happens) and ended up in heresy. It took the seventh council and many holy fathers to actually delineate the teaching of the Church and to correct both iconoclasm and actual icon-worship/idolatry.
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 06:53:39 PM »

And, to add to historical context, iconoclasm in the east was not begun as a violent reaction to people just going about their business and piously venerating images. There were plenty of recorded abuses bordering on if not actually becoming image worship. Things were getting out of hand and needed correction. The iconoclasts, of course, went way too far (as so often happens) and ended up in heresy. It took the seventh council and many holy fathers to actually delineate the teaching of the Church and to correct both iconoclasm and actual icon-worship/idolatry.

That's quite true.  There's very little in a Living Body/Living Church that is ever literally pinned down in black and white.  There must always be room for error, and time for correction.

Thanks for this!

M.
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 08:09:21 PM »

Iconoclast worship service

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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 11:01:58 AM »

Iconoclast worship service


Disgusting.
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 12:10:48 PM »

Iconoclast worship service


Thats kind of a low blow.

PP
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 12:33:57 PM »

Iconoclast worship service



Was this supposed to mean something??  All I see here is a large group of Asian people in an auditorium, many of whom have their hands raised, *possibly* in an attitude of worship or praise.

Are you trying to make a point?  If so, what is it?
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 12:37:24 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 01:10:40 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2011, 01:12:16 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2011, 01:16:38 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2011, 01:24:50 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
No disrespect meant of course and yes, no more digression, back to the subject....which I have forgotten what that was.....

PP
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2011, 01:26:24 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
No disrespect meant of course and yes, no more digression, back to the subject....which I have forgotten what that was.....

PP

Something about Pope Leo III and the Koreans  Grin Grin Grin??
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2011, 02:12:19 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
No disrespect meant of course and yes, no more digression, back to the subject....which I have forgotten what that was.....

PP

Something about Pope Leo III and the Koreans  Grin Grin Grin??
Ah, the Papal Barbecue...got it now.

PP
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2011, 04:49:49 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
No disrespect meant of course and yes, no more digression, back to the subject....which I have forgotten what that was.....

PP

Something about Pope Leo III and the Koreans  Grin Grin Grin??

He was completely against inserting kimchi into the Creed.
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2011, 05:03:08 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
No disrespect meant of course and yes, no more digression, back to the subject....which I have forgotten what that was.....

PP

Something about Pope Leo III and the Koreans  Grin Grin Grin??

He was completely against inserting kimchi into the Creed.
Well, thats understandable. The kimchi and Greek food wouldn't mix well.....

PP
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2011, 05:05:00 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
No disrespect meant of course and yes, no more digression, back to the subject....which I have forgotten what that was.....

PP

Something about Pope Leo III and the Koreans  Grin Grin Grin??

He was completely against inserting kimchi into the Creed.

I've tasted kimchi.  I'd be against inserting it *anywhere*.  (Well...I can think.....okay-cancel *that* thought  Grin)
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2011, 05:08:21 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
No disrespect meant of course and yes, no more digression, back to the subject....which I have forgotten what that was.....

PP

Something about Pope Leo III and the Koreans  Grin Grin Grin??

He was completely against inserting kimchi into the Creed.

I've tasted kimchi.  I'd be against inserting it *anywhere*.  (Well...I can think.....okay-cancel *that* thought  Grin)
Its not bad when done right. But I'd rather walk across broken glass barefoot than try kimchi made by a 9th century Roman Pontiff who never heard of Korea Smiley

PP
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Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2011, 05:12:05 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one. 

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
I think I've done that once or twice.

I was just mentioning that thing about korea. As far as his point, you got me on that one.

PP

Well, you may have, but I doubt that you meant any disrespect by it.

That's probably enough of *that* digression!  Wink
No disrespect meant of course and yes, no more digression, back to the subject....which I have forgotten what that was.....

PP

Something about Pope Leo III and the Koreans  Grin Grin Grin??

He was completely against inserting kimchi into the Creed.

I've tasted kimchi.  I'd be against inserting it *anywhere*.  (Well...I can think.....okay-cancel *that* thought  Grin)
Its not bad when done right. But I'd rather walk across broken glass barefoot than try kimchi made by a 9th century Roman Pontiff who never heard of Korea Smiley

PP

LOL!!

"Not bad" is hardly a resounding endorsement.  Guess it depends on your inflection.  I'm still against inserting it anywhere.
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« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2011, 06:53:26 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one.  

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
You're confused.

The Vatican is not a city-state in Italy.  If it were (as it was 1870-1929), it wouldn't be a city state.

"Roman Catholic Church." "Catholic Church." Are they actual human persons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy

On the "worshippers," that evidently is what Charlemagne wanted. Like the papal state in Italy.
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2011, 02:21:31 PM »

Looks like a Korean presbyterian service. There's tons of presbies in Korea.

Yeah, it "looks like...", but is it?  And that doesn't explain whatever point username was making, if indeed he had one.  

(Sort of reminds me in a vague sort of way of one or two posters on this board who seem to confuse a city-state in Italy with an actual human person or persons.)
You're confused.

The Vatican is not a city-state in Italy.  If it were (as it was 1870-1929), it wouldn't be a city state.

"Roman Catholic Church." "Catholic Church." Are they actual human persons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy

On the "worshippers," that evidently is what Charlemagne wanted. Like the papal state in Italy.

Okay, against my better judgment, I'll bite.

I can always count on you, out of love and charity, to try to "de-confuse" me  Wink.

Thanks for the "word of the day", metonymy!  What a great word!  I'd never come across it before, and now, thanks to you, my vocabulary is further enriched. 

I know and knew, as do most other Catholics and not a few Orthodox here,  how you use the term "Vatican" (I'm sure I need not elaborate, and to do so would really contribute little, if anything at all, to any serious discussion of anything).  Putting a label to it, i.e. "metonymy", doesn't change a thing, really, though as I said, it *is* a great word. 

Since you quote wikipedia, allow me to also do so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City

(And before you say anything, yes, I know that the article refers to "Vatican City", as opposed to "the Vatican" [referring to the way that you use it]).

"Vatican City Listeni/ˈvætɨkən ˈsɪti/, or Vatican City State,[14] in Italian officially Stato della Città del Vaticano (pronounced [ˈstaːto della t͡ʃitˈta del vatiˈkaːno]),[15] which translates literally as State of the City of the Vatican, is a landlocked sovereign city-state whose territory consists of a walled enclave within the city of Rome, Italy. It has an area of approximately 44 hectares (110 acres), and a population of just over 800.[6][16] This makes Vatican City the smallest independent state in the world by area, and also the world's least populated.

Vatican City was established in 1929 by the Lateran Treaty, signed by Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Gasparri, on behalf of the Holy See and by Prime Minister Benito Mussolini on behalf of the Kingdom of Italy. Vatican City State is distinct from the Holy See, which dates back to early Christianity and is the main episcopal see of 1.2 billion Latin and Eastern Catholic adherents around the globe. Ordinances of Vatican City are published in Italian; official documents of the Holy See are issued mainly in Latin. The two entities have distinct passports: the Holy See, not being a country, issues only diplomatic and service passports, whereas Vatican City State issues normal passports. In each case very few passports are issued.

The Lateran Treaty in 1929, which brought the city-state into existence, spoke of it as a new creation (Preamble and Article III), not as a vestige of the much larger Papal States (756–1870) that had previously encompassed much of central Italy. Most of this territory was absorbed into the Kingdom of Italy in 1860, and the final portion, namely the city of Rome with Lazio, ten years later, in 1870.

Vatican City is an ecclesiastical[6] or sacerdotal-monarchical[7] state, ruled by the Bishop of Rome—the Pope. "


There is also this: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vt.html

Consider me out of this "conversation", but please feel free to have the last word about it.  Our mutual animosity gets neither of us anywhere, and only serves to alienate both of us further from God, especially during this (or any) Holy season of Advent.  For my part, I will be trying to "fast", at least to a certain extent, from this website and from any participation in it that could be detrimental to my soul, for the remainder of the season.  You are in my prayers, and I hope that you will include me in yours.

By the way, I was quite serious and sincere in my thanks to you about enriching my vocabulary!

With love, in Christ our True God,
J Michael

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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2011, 03:38:34 PM »

Iconoclast worship service



kind of reminds me of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlkNzyrnvLI
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