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Author Topic: Egypt's ElBaradei: Liberals 'Decimated' in Vote  (Read 866 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 05, 2011, 05:00:52 AM »

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Egypt's top reformist leader said Sunday the liberal youth behind the country's uprising have been "decimated" in parliamentary elections dominated by Islamists and expressed concern about the rise of hard-line religious elements advocating extremist ideas such as banning women from driving.

(Full story here)

Yes, what everyone but the politicians and Facebook revolutionaries knew would happen very unsurprisingly has officially now actually happened. Indeed, there are dark days ahead. Lord have mercy. Once the Islamists are firmly entrenched, they won't be ousted after 18 days like Mubarak was.

Please keep the Copts and all of Egypt in your prayers. God has intervened on behalf of His people in the past in order to save them from dire circumstances. May it be that we have such faith that moves mountains.




« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 05:01:26 AM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2011, 09:28:28 AM »

Lord, have mercy!
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 10:13:58 AM »

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Egypt's top reformist leader said Sunday the liberal youth behind the country's uprising have been "decimated" in parliamentary elections dominated by Islamists and expressed concern about the rise of hard-line religious elements advocating extremist ideas such as banning women from driving.

(Full story here)

NPR don't know no English neither.

The liberals only wish to have been decimated.
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 01:31:59 PM »

As bad as the MB dominating the elections is, the scariest part is how well the Salafists did.
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 02:30:37 PM »

The scary resemblence of the 2011 Egyptian uprise to the Iranian revolution of 1979 was identified by early on by almost all Copts and minorities in the Middle East. It went on exactly the same road in the transition period from the uprise till the elections, the outcome of the election is identical, and there is no reason to believe Egypt will be anything different than Iran in 10 years. Well, unless God intervenes.

Revolution never brought anything good to humanity, for it is based on a satanic belief that there is "good in people" and that people are good by nature.

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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2011, 02:35:01 PM »

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Yes, what everyone but the politicians and Facebook revolutionaries knew would happen very unsurprisingly has officially now actually happened.

The politicians knew, and supported the Islamists. Great Britian supported the MB since its inception in 1928, and the US took over the role of the sugar daddy since 1954.
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 02:37:59 PM »

...for it is based on a satanic belief that there is "good in people" and that people are good by nature.

Are TULIPs in season?
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 03:31:46 PM »

If you listened to the US administration, you'd think they didn't know. Or maybe Hilary Clinton really likes Salafists? "This is your achievement and you broke barriers and overcame obstacles to pursue the dream of democracy."

Or, could it be, as presented by others, revolution for Muslim Arabs only? That's a purely rhetorical question that no western country appears to even want to touch, whether they recognize it or not.

So, yeah...maybe they knew, maybe they didn't know. That's not really what's important right now.

Quote
Yes, what everyone but the politicians and Facebook revolutionaries knew would happen very unsurprisingly has officially now actually happened.

The politicians knew, and supported the Islamists. Great Britian supported the MB since its inception in 1928, and the US took over the role of the sugar daddy since 1954.
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 03:44:18 PM »

While stated a bit strongly by Stavro, I think that there is essential truth in the view that revolutions are not to be trusted or celebrated, as they (like all modern politics) rest on a sort of Pelagianism that is unacceptable and contrary to the Christian faith. (This view is essentially the same as is expounded upon by Fr. Andrew Damick in his AFR podcasts, by the way.)

Mankind cannot be saved by politics, and as we see from the rapidly declining place of Christians and other minorities in these so-called emerging democracies, democracy is not the intrinsic good that the West and even many in the East have ingrained in their psychology. Without strong traditions of civil society operating irrespective of sect (such as do not and cannot exist in any Muslim-dominated country), it is in fact an insidious evil, as the rest of the world moronically cheers it on because, hey, the people got to elect their executioner.

Forgive me for remaining unimpressed by this system.

...for it is based on a satanic belief that there is "good in people" and that people are good by nature.

Are TULIPs in season?
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 03:52:56 PM »

St. Antony and St. Mary of Egypt, pray for us.
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 03:58:06 PM »

Yawn, this is not new at all...or a surprise.

I think that people should really consider whether they want people to really have democracy or they just want to choose a different leader for them. The "old elite," Mubarak, Ben Ali, Al-Assad, Gaddafi...really needed to go (hopefully Al-Assad is shooed out next) for more than one reason. But a whole other can of worms has opened. We have to ask ourselves which is preferable. It's not like Christians thrived under the previous regimes.

But for the Copts and our other Christian brothers and sisters in those countries, Lord, have mercy. I also pray that those who are in power, who talk about democracy, transparency, and freedom for all, will follow through in their promises.
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 04:19:49 PM »

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Egypt's top reformist leader said Sunday the liberal youth behind the country's uprising have been "decimated" in parliamentary elections dominated by Islamists and expressed concern about the rise of hard-line religious elements advocating extremist ideas such as banning women from driving.

(Full story here)

NPR don't know no English neither.

The liberals only wish to have been decimated.

NPR are quoting Mohamed ElBaradei when they use the word decimated; even in the headline quotation marks are used - so the misuse is not on the part of the website. In any case, I think decimated is one of those words that has finally changed from its original meaning and now means "to reduce by a large percentage" or "drastically reduce the strength or effectiveness of" something. These things happen.
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 04:23:42 PM »

Quote
Egypt's top reformist leader said Sunday the liberal youth behind the country's uprising have been "decimated" in parliamentary elections dominated by Islamists and expressed concern about the rise of hard-line religious elements advocating extremist ideas such as banning women from driving.

(Full story here)

NPR don't know no English neither.

The liberals only wish to have been decimated.

NPR are quoting Mohamed ElBaradei when they use the word decimated; even in the headline quotation marks are used - so the misuse is not on the part of the website. In any case, I think decimated is one of those words that has finally changed from its original meaning and now means "to reduce by a large percentage" or "drastically reduce the strength or effectiveness of" something. These things happen.
Well, I like the original term. Of course decimate just sounds cool. But these are the same folks who demand that saying the word "Niggling" in a work seting gets you fired.

PP
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 08:37:20 PM »

If ElBaradei was the leader of the opposition to the Salafists and the Muslim Brotherhood, can anyone truly be surprised that the liberal bloc went down in flames?  ElBaradei is only a figurehead of the liberal parties, and a fifth rate one at that.  The man has no credibility (look at his "work" with the IAEA) and just assumed that he would be the natural choice for Egypt's next leader once he returned form exile.
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 10:58:34 AM »

ElBaradei was never the leader of the opposition. He's just any easy person for the Western Press to interview because of the name recognition. Scamandrius, I agree with your point, but understand he's got zero credibility with the average Egyptian.

The liberal "Egyptian Bloc" was a very ad-hoc collection of small groups that simply didn't have the time & money to organize effectively.  Provided this isn't a one person-one vote-one time sham, the opposition will get better over time.

Also, don't forget the MB gets a huge amount of money from the KSA. I'm not sure how that's going to be counterbalanced considering the West appears resided to the fact they'll be running the whole show.  And, as a result, doesn't want to antagonize them.

Did Mubarak have to go? I guess it was inevitable for the days of the "Arab strongman" to pass.  Its hard for me to be optimistic about this next stage, but we pray that God brings it to the good...eventually.
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 11:38:25 AM »

^ Great post! ElBaradei was a great name for the media to toss around.

I was really not surprised when the Islamists came out on top. Really, not at all. They have been a presence in the region for decades (as the MB), whereas the liberals had great aims that worked in revolution but are sort of sputtering post-revolution. As if a Facebook revolt will solve all of the problems!

The region will probably be a mess for many years to come...setting up a transparent democracy is not easy at all. Look at Eastern Europe -- corruption is still the cultural and political norm in many countries, even about 20 years after the Soviet Union fell.

Drives me crazy when I hear people disappointed that things didn't turn around so quickly. Really?

CoptoGeek, this may be a case of the "devil you know" versus "the devil you don't," but Mubarak, et al needed to go. We just need to accept that the alternative may not be what the US wanted or imagined when they saw Egyptians protesting in the Tahrir Square...
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« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2011, 12:23:20 PM »

Nevermind what the USA wants. The Copts are more important than the politics, be they Islamic, pragmatic, hopeful (a.k.a. stupid), or otherwise.

As Stavaros pointed out the similarity between this so-called revolution and the Iranian one of 1979, I would like to further that and say that I can see a time in the future (perhaps long after I'm dead, but...) when the MB or whoever comes in will be in similar trouble as the Iranian regime, with a large population sick of Islamic rule after decades and decades of unholy holy governance. This is the problem with revolutions, you know...no matter who wins, it is always "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". Again, I think the difficulty will be in dislodging them once they're in there. God have mercy on Egypt.
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 01:31:20 PM »

At least some postivie news:

Liberals and democrats revel in Salafist electoral defeats

Egyptian liberals breathed a sigh of relief upon the ouster of Salafist figures in the runoffs in the first round of parliamentary elections

Sherif Tarek, Wednesday 7 Dec 2011

http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/28773.aspx
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 02:10:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Just a thought.  While I fully support the Christian minority in Egypt, and beyond empathize and sympathize with their situation, we honestly can't be cultural chauvinists, Egypt is predominantly Islamic nation.  So the best we can ask for is that our own civil rights and liberties be respected by the Egyptian regimes and Egyptian populations, but we also have to learn to respect their own political sovereignty and decisions.  If a majority of Egyptians support the Muslim Brotherhood, then that is their business.  Our only response can be to demand that the government and population in Egypt also mutually respect our own rights and Christians within that nation.  The Egyptian regime has no right to persecute, discriminate, or neglect the Christian populations, but we can't honestly expect to counter the past 1000 years of history which has firmly placed Egypt as a Muslim nation.  We can demand that these respect our rights, but we can't change their affiliations. 


Further, I am appalled at the hypocrisy of folks who argue against Islamic political parties when Europe is saturated with openly Christian political parties like the Christian Democrats who control Germany, or those Christian Democrats and Unions in Ukraine, Lithuania, Serbia, Netherlands, Latvia, Bulgaria, Estonia,  the UK, Romania, Moldova, Belgium, and Belarus, not to mention the "Compassionate Conservatives" and the "Religious Right" of the United States.  If there can be Christian political parties in Europe who also represent the secular interests of non-Christians including European Jews, Muslims, and non-believers, how can we not also then allow Islamist political parties in the Muslim world, so long as they practice the same tolerance and mutual respect we expect from the Christian Democrats?

It goes both ways. In this regard then, we have simply NO RIGHT to tell Egypt or any other Muslim country that they can't have religious political parties, considering Europe has plenty.  Further, the European experience demonstrates that religious-oriented political parties can also properly represent their non-religious constituencies, and so we should hold Islamic parties to the EXACT SAME STANDARDS as we do Angele Merkel or Peter Blokhuis.

By the way, I am just trying to be realistic.  If we condemn Islamic parties simply because they are religious or Islamic, we are hypocrites, and the Muslims there will surely see this and it will hamper communication.  Rather, if we begrudgingly accept these parties, we can then have dialogue and demand with international scrutiny that they support civil rights and justice for all their citizens, just as is expected of the Christian Democrats. 

stay blessed,

habte selassie
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2011, 09:02:56 AM »

The scary resemblence of the 2011 Egyptian uprise to the Iranian revolution of 1979 was identified by early on by almost all Copts and minorities in the Middle East.

I think it'll be some Turkish-Iranian chimera. No way SCAF is giving up any real power, but they also have no interest in staying in the limelight. There was a defininte deal between them and the MB. The MB gets to run things so long as they leave the military and the generals' 'business interests' alone.
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2011, 09:57:23 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Just a thought.  While I fully support the Christian minority in Egypt, and beyond empathize and sympathize with their situation, we honestly can't be cultural chauvinists, Egypt is predominantly Islamic nation.  So the best we can ask for is that our own civil rights and liberties be respected by the Egyptian regimes and Egyptian populations, but we also have to learn to respect their own political sovereignty and decisions.  If a majority of Egyptians support the Muslim Brotherhood, then that is their business.  Our only response can be to demand that the government and population in Egypt also mutually respect our own rights and Christians within that nation.  The Egyptian regime has no right to persecute, discriminate, or neglect the Christian populations, but we can't honestly expect to counter the past 1000 years of history which has firmly placed Egypt as a Muslim nation.  We can demand that these respect our rights, but we can't change their affiliations. 


Further, I am appalled at the hypocrisy of folks who argue against Islamic political parties when Europe is saturated with openly Christian political parties like the Christian Democrats who control Germany, or those Christian Democrats and Unions in Ukraine, Lithuania, Serbia, Netherlands, Latvia, Bulgaria, Estonia,  the UK, Romania, Moldova, Belgium, and Belarus, not to mention the "Compassionate Conservatives" and the "Religious Right" of the United States.  If there can be Christian political parties in Europe who also represent the secular interests of non-Christians including European Jews, Muslims, and non-believers, how can we not also then allow Islamist political parties in the Muslim world, so long as they practice the same tolerance and mutual respect we expect from the Christian Democrats?

It goes both ways. In this regard then, we have simply NO RIGHT to tell Egypt or any other Muslim country that they can't have religious political parties, considering Europe has plenty.  Further, the European experience demonstrates that religious-oriented political parties can also properly represent their non-religious constituencies, and so we should hold Islamic parties to the EXACT SAME STANDARDS as we do Angele Merkel or Peter Blokhuis.

By the way, I am just trying to be realistic.  If we condemn Islamic parties simply because they are religious or Islamic, we are hypocrites, and the Muslims there will surely see this and it will hamper communication.  Rather, if we begrudgingly accept these parties, we can then have dialogue and demand with international scrutiny that they support civil rights and justice for all their citizens, just as is expected of the Christian Democrats. 

stay blessed,

habte selassie


I think the concern that has been voiced in this thread is that Islamic political parties coming into power usually results in the deaths of Christians. This is not hypocrisy; this is simply not being naïve.
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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2011, 12:56:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Just a thought.  While I fully support the Christian minority in Egypt, and beyond empathize and sympathize with their situation, we honestly can't be cultural chauvinists, Egypt is predominantly Islamic nation.  So the best we can ask for is that our own civil rights and liberties be respected by the Egyptian regimes and Egyptian populations, but we also have to learn to respect their own political sovereignty and decisions.  If a majority of Egyptians support the Muslim Brotherhood, then that is their business.  Our only response can be to demand that the government and population in Egypt also mutually respect our own rights and Christians within that nation.  The Egyptian regime has no right to persecute, discriminate, or neglect the Christian populations, but we can't honestly expect to counter the past 1000 years of history which has firmly placed Egypt as a Muslim nation.  We can demand that these respect our rights, but we can't change their affiliations. 


Further, I am appalled at the hypocrisy of folks who argue against Islamic political parties when Europe is saturated with openly Christian political parties like the Christian Democrats who control Germany, or those Christian Democrats and Unions in Ukraine, Lithuania, Serbia, Netherlands, Latvia, Bulgaria, Estonia,  the UK, Romania, Moldova, Belgium, and Belarus, not to mention the "Compassionate Conservatives" and the "Religious Right" of the United States.  If there can be Christian political parties in Europe who also represent the secular interests of non-Christians including European Jews, Muslims, and non-believers, how can we not also then allow Islamist political parties in the Muslim world, so long as they practice the same tolerance and mutual respect we expect from the Christian Democrats?

It goes both ways. In this regard then, we have simply NO RIGHT to tell Egypt or any other Muslim country that they can't have religious political parties, considering Europe has plenty.  Further, the European experience demonstrates that religious-oriented political parties can also properly represent their non-religious constituencies, and so we should hold Islamic parties to the EXACT SAME STANDARDS as we do Angele Merkel or Peter Blokhuis.

By the way, I am just trying to be realistic.  If we condemn Islamic parties simply because they are religious or Islamic, we are hypocrites, and the Muslims there will surely see this and it will hamper communication.  Rather, if we begrudgingly accept these parties, we can then have dialogue and demand with international scrutiny that they support civil rights and justice for all their citizens, just as is expected of the Christian Democrats. 

stay blessed,

habte selassie


I think the concern that has been voiced in this thread is that Islamic political parties coming into power usually results in the deaths of Christians. This is not hypocrisy; this is simply not being naïve.
Thats the whole thing. This love and understanding argument can be propped up by all the hyper-emotional nonsense that folks can muster. However just looking at history briefly and that premise falls to the ground.

As I said, these people in power that have these "extremist" views had to be voted in by a majority of the population so to me, these folks support "The Prophet, The Tribute, or The Sword".

I just pray that the Christians in these lands will be protected.

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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2011, 01:20:22 AM »

the plight of Copts have always been to have a fair government in Egypt who abides by the rule of a just and fair Law for all citizens of Egypt. whatever other parties might make up the government, as long as they are subject to the rule of a Just Law, then all can live in mutual respect and tolerance. however Islamic parties know only of Islamic Law, and that translates into subjugation , second class citizenship in non-Muslim Egyptians, whose right to live in their country free, is compromised and denied. there is no hypocrisy with being upset with this! why are some here trying to twist people's words I have no idea! I am just as upset by that as well.

in North America, all the parties Christians or liberals, are accountable to the Supreme Law of the Land, whose very spirit of freedom , equality and justice for all has served to oppose and correct  the great evils of slavery and human right violations it leaves room for all things Ethical, fair and just to be applicable as they arise through human history, and is able to evolve towards maintaining justice for all. Democracy without the rule of enforced just law has lead to the evil of the SS party, democracy is no democracy as we know it if it violates the civil rights of the minority.  if one jailer leaves and another comes yet if I am still chained in my prison should i be happy about it? the international diplomatic community needs to bring the plight of the copts in the remaking of Egypt's government, by making it accountable for any civil and human right violations that will occur under its rule. to come up with a just law that is enforced not just written on paper and forgoten. this is what the Copts have asked, justice in their own country! they did not say the majority should not be heard, they said Egypt must be fair and just for all her citizens!

Lord have mercy on the Copts!
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