OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 31, 2014, 11:55:18 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Chopping up the Bodies of Saints  (Read 753 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« on: December 04, 2011, 05:22:05 AM »

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/st._andrew_the_apostle

As Fr. Hopko mentions, they did this to St. Andrew the Apostle after he died with an arm going to church of Constantinople and some body parts going to Rome, etc. I've also read about this happening to other saints as opposed to just waiting for the body to fall apart naturally or something.

I'm not opposed to relics but chopping up a saint's body seems really grisly and counter to the Church's policy of respecting the human body.
Logged
J.M.C
Слава Богу за всё!
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194



WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 05:36:03 AM »


St Andrew's relics were transferred to Constantinople in the mid-4th century; part of his relics, including his head, were given by the Despot Thomas Palaegeous to the Pope of Rome in the 15th century in an attempt to try and unite the two churches. I think "chopping up" might be the wrong word to use over one thousand years after the repose of the Saint. I'm not aware of other Saints being chopped up - I presume you mean whilst they still have flesh and/or skin on their bones - what examples did you have in mind?
Logged

IC XC
NI KA
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2011, 06:10:29 AM »

St. David the Dendrite

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/06/righteous-david-dendrite-of.html

Quote
About 150 years after the Saint's death, in 685-690, the abbot of the monastery Demetrios opened his tomb in order to receive a portion of his relics. In doing so however, the plaque on the tomb fell and broke into many pieces. This was seen by the abbot as a sign that it was not the wishes of Saint David for his relics to be portioned.

St. Polycarp

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/martyrdompolycarp-roberts.html

Quote
But when the adversary of the race of the righteous, the envious, malicious, and wicked one, perceived the impressive nature of his martyrdom, and [considered] the blameless life he had led from the beginning, and how he was now crowned with the wreath of immortality, having beyond dispute received his reward, he did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh.
Logged
J.M.C
Слава Богу за всё!
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194



WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011, 06:39:10 AM »

None of the examples so far present the breaking up of holy relics in a good light. On part of St Thomas' relics going to Constantinople, I think this is a misunderstanding: I can see only the entire relics being transferred, with "parts" being given to Rome much later, with perhaps not the best of intentions.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 06:39:41 AM by J.M.C » Logged

IC XC
NI KA
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 07:01:23 AM »

I suppose I can agree in the cases of Sts. Andrew and David, but the Martyrdom of Polycarp does seem to me to portray this desire in a positive light.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 08:31:11 AM »

Many relics are cut. How would one make an antimins?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,438



WWW
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 01:44:44 PM »

I suppose I can agree in the cases of Sts. Andrew and David, but the Martyrdom of Polycarp does seem to me to portray this desire in a positive light.

Volnutt, the body of St Polycarp had been burned by the Romans, reduced to only bones to begin with. There was no grisly sawing through flesh involved with his relics.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 05:28:04 PM »

Many relics are cut. How would one make an antimins?
Well, that's just practicality, I guess. I don't mind that.
Logged
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 05:30:14 PM »

I suppose I can agree in the cases of Sts. Andrew and David, but the Martyrdom of Polycarp does seem to me to portray this desire in a positive light.

Volnutt, the body of St Polycarp had been burned by the Romans, reduced to only bones to begin with. There was no grisly sawing through flesh involved with his relics.
I know, but the account indicates everyone would have wanted to cut his body up.
Logged
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2011, 07:10:46 PM »

I suppose I can agree in the cases of Sts. Andrew and David, but the Martyrdom of Polycarp does seem to me to portray this desire in a positive light.

Volnutt, the body of St Polycarp had been burned by the Romans, reduced to only bones to begin with. There was no grisly sawing through flesh involved with his relics.
I know, but the account indicates everyone would have wanted to cut his body up.

I think you are reading more into the translation choice of words than is there. Here's an alternate translation:
"saw to it that not even his poor body should be taken away by, even though many desired to do this and to touch his holy flesh." (translated by J.B. Lightfoot and J.R. Harmer)

This translation has a footnote that the 'the verb is koinonesai, usually translated "to have fellowship with."' The writer could merely be indicating that 'we' (the local Christians) wanted to take away the body and keep it (whole) for veneration by the faithful.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Volnutt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Agnostic/Universalist
Posts: 3,107


« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2011, 07:59:45 PM »

I suppose I can agree in the cases of Sts. Andrew and David, but the Martyrdom of Polycarp does seem to me to portray this desire in a positive light.

Volnutt, the body of St Polycarp had been burned by the Romans, reduced to only bones to begin with. There was no grisly sawing through flesh involved with his relics.
I know, but the account indicates everyone would have wanted to cut his body up.

I think you are reading more into the translation choice of words than is there. Here's an alternate translation:
"saw to it that not even his poor body should be taken away by, even though many desired to do this and to touch his holy flesh." (translated by J.B. Lightfoot and J.R. Harmer)

This translation has a footnote that the 'the verb is koinonesai, usually translated "to have fellowship with."' The writer could merely be indicating that 'we' (the local Christians) wanted to take away the body and keep it (whole) for veneration by the faithful.
Thanks. I was unaware of that.
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,279


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 02:20:24 AM »

Many relics are cut. How would one make an antimins?

Also the altar/church is consecrated with the relic embedded with wax into the altar table.   Usually just a sliver or shaving.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Tags: relics 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.075 seconds with 40 queries.