OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 20, 2014, 04:43:11 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Universal Ordinary Magisterium  (Read 1555 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« on: December 03, 2011, 09:23:39 PM »

The Universal Ordinary Magisterium

What is it?

Who is it?

How does it function?

How does it proclaim infallible teaching?

How does it proclaim infallible teaching without issuing magisterial statements?

Give 2 or 3 examples of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium functioning.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2011, 09:48:44 PM »

Just popping this in for those who are interested in such things:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_17041998_directory-for-catechesis_en.html

Ho!!...I think I may have found you a "list"...or a set of examples that might be instructive:  It's a little difficult to read so I am including the pertinent section of text...not that any of the article is impertinent...precisely... Cheesy

http://www.stjohn17v20-21.com/magist03.htm

From the text:

Almost all the great doctrines of the Church are taught with her solemn authority. Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

Most of the above can be found clearly in Sacred Scripture. There are likewise many other affirmations in Sacred Scripture that have not become the object of a solemn definition because they have been peacefully possessed by the Church and have not required it. For example, the Bible and the Church teach that Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior of the human race. This doctrine is part of the ordinary, infallible teaching of the Church, and has not needed explicit definition.

The following quotations from Lumen Gentium (no. 25), given in their original order, correspond and further explain each of the five rows in the table presented above:

(1) "Bishops who teach in communion with the Roman Pontiff are to be revered by all as witnesses of divine and Catholic truth; the faithful, for their part, are obliged to submit to their bishops' decision, made in the name of Christ, in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a religious submission of mind."

(2) "This religious submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authoritative Magisterium (authentico magisterio) of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra; indeed, that his supreme Magisterium be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to decisions made by him, according to his manifest mind and intention."

(3) "Although the bishops, taken individually, do not enjoy the privilege of infallibility, they do, however, proclaim infallibly the doctrine of Christ on the following conditions -- namely, when, even though dispersed throughout the world but preserving amongst themselves and with Peter's successor the bond of communion, in their authoritative teaching concerning matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement that a particular teaching is to be held definitively."

(4) "This is still more clearly the case when, assembled in an ecumenical council, they are, for the universal Church, teachers and judges in matters of faith and morals, whose decisions must be adhered to with the submission of faith."

(5) The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful who confirms his brethren in the faith (see Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine concerning faith or morals."

Still another infallible witness to the Faith, but not in itself a part of the Magisterium, is in the whole body itself of believers. "The whole body of the faithful, who have an anointing from the Holy One, cannot err in belief and it manifests this characteristic of its own by means of the supernatural sense of the faith (sensus fidei) of the whole people, when, 'from the bishops to the last of the faithful' they exhibit their universal consent in matters of faith and morals" (LG, no. 12).

It has been the common teaching of theologians that canonizations are also infallible proclamations. A canonization is a solemn declaration that a member of the Church is now in heaven and is enrolled in the "canon" (official list) of saints, for public veneration and invocation by all the faithful.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2011, 09:53:49 PM »

Bringing the following in from another discussion thread.  The following article is pretty good for basic outline of Magisterial teaching:

Here is a good place to begin for people who are somewhat in the dark:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/general-magisterium.htm

I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par with one another in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.

Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,613



« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2011, 09:56:26 PM »

Quote
One can guard against such mistakes by reading the official documents of the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is to be distinguished from individuals theological explanation of that teaching, which can never be as definitive as the teaching itself.
Now if we can just get a straight answer on what are those official documents of the Church (are papal bulls official enough?).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2011, 09:58:10 PM »

Quote
One can guard against such mistakes by reading the official documents of the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is to be distinguished from individuals theological explanation of that teaching, which can never be as definitive as the teaching itself.
Now if we can just get a straight answer on what are those official documents of the Church (are papal bulls official enough?).
Sounds like a set up to me.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,613



« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2011, 09:59:45 PM »

Bringing the following in from another discussion thread.  The following article is pretty good for basic outline of Magisterial teaching:

Here is a good place to begin for people who are somewhat in the dark:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/general-magisterium.htm

I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par with one another in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.
Quote
by Ronald L. Conte Jr.
September 24, 2006
updated with a section on the development of doctrine
on October 1, 2006
In general, how much store do you put by Mr. Conte's work?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2011, 10:00:17 PM »

Quote
One can guard against such mistakes by reading the official documents of the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is to be distinguished from individuals theological explanation of that teaching, which can never be as definitive as the teaching itself.
Now if we can just get a straight answer on what are those official documents of the Church (are papal bulls official enough?).

Not when read out of historical, situational, theological, spiritual and magisterial context.

Please please do not derail this particular thread.  Start a new thread if you want to make a long cut and paste statement with maps...please.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2011, 10:01:42 PM »

Bringing the following in from another discussion thread.  The following article is pretty good for basic outline of Magisterial teaching:

Here is a good place to begin for people who are somewhat in the dark:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/general-magisterium.htm

I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par with one another in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.
Quote
by Ronald L. Conte Jr.
September 24, 2006
updated with a section on the development of doctrine
on October 1, 2006
In general, how much store do you put by Mr. Conte's work?

I am willing to consider individual elements of it suitable for informal discussion such as one finds on this kind of Forum.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,613



« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2011, 10:02:22 PM »

Quote
One can guard against such mistakes by reading the official documents of the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is to be distinguished from individuals theological explanation of that teaching, which can never be as definitive as the teaching itself.
Now if we can just get a straight answer on what are those official documents of the Church (are papal bulls official enough?).
Sounds like a set up to me.
yes, Lument Gentium does sound like that (especially the infamous section 25), doesn't it?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2011, 10:03:41 PM »

Quote
One can guard against such mistakes by reading the official documents of the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is to be distinguished from individuals theological explanation of that teaching, which can never be as definitive as the teaching itself.
Now if we can just get a straight answer on what are those official documents of the Church (are papal bulls official enough?).
Sounds like a set up to me.
yes, Lument Gentium does sound like that (especially the infamous section 25), doesn't it?
No honey bunny, your question sounds like a set up. So just share the trap you plan on springing.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,613



« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2011, 10:10:58 PM »

Quote
One can guard against such mistakes by reading the official documents of the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is to be distinguished from individuals theological explanation of that teaching, which can never be as definitive as the teaching itself.
Now if we can just get a straight answer on what are those official documents of the Church (are papal bulls official enough?).

Not when read out of historical, situational, theological, spiritual and magisterial context.

Please please do not derail this particular thread.  Start a new thread if you want to make a long cut and paste statement with maps...please.
Oh, I'm quite the piker when it comes to cutting and pasting.  Who cut and pasted this?
Quote
So the fathers of the fourth Council of Constantinople, following the footsteps of their predecessors, published this solemn profession of faith: "The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honor. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the Apostolic See preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion."
Cutting and pasting from polemical literature, itself cut and pasted together from the fragmentary acts of a voided council, which itself cut and pasted from a formula that the bishops of the East refused to sign, and those who did, did so only after they took it upon themselves to modify the formula to bring it in line with Orthodoxy:your supreme pontiff has it on me when it comes to cutting and pasting in the promulgation of official documents-Pastor Aeternus is official, no?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2011, 02:35:50 PM »

Quote
One can guard against such mistakes by reading the official documents of the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is to be distinguished from individuals theological explanation of that teaching, which can never be as definitive as the teaching itself.
Now if we can just get a straight answer on what are those official documents of the Church (are papal bulls official enough?).

Not when read out of historical, situational, theological, spiritual and magisterial context.

Please please do not derail this particular thread.  Start a new thread if you want to make a long cut and paste statement with maps...please.
Oh, I'm quite the piker when it comes to cutting and pasting.  Who cut and pasted this?
Quote
So the fathers of the fourth Council of Constantinople, following the footsteps of their predecessors, published this solemn profession of faith: "The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honor. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the Apostolic See preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion."
Cutting and pasting from polemical literature, itself cut and pasted together from the fragmentary acts of a voided council, which itself cut and pasted from a formula that the bishops of the East refused to sign, and those who did, did so only after they took it upon themselves to modify the formula to bring it in line with Orthodoxy:your supreme pontiff has it on me when it comes to cutting and pasting in the promulgation of official documents-Pastor Aeternus is official, no?


Uh...aren't we going a little "off the rails" with this?  As in "derailing" the thread?  Try *this* thread: Orthodox-Catholic Cuts, Pastes, Pretty Maps, and Irrelevant Comments
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 03:37:46 AM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.

So we can but conclude that nobody knows (at least on this forum) what the Universal Ordinary Magisterium is, and certainly they do not know its role and function.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 03:38:39 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian
Posts: 6,671



« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 03:54:14 AM »

So we can but conclude that nobody knows (at least on this forum) what the Universal Ordinary Magisterium is, and certainly they do not know its role and function.

So the buck stops there, but we don't know when or how it stops there? Not necessarily very helpful if that is the case.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,613



« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2011, 09:31:43 AM »

Quote
One can guard against such mistakes by reading the official documents of the Church. What the Church infallibly teaches is to be distinguished from individuals theological explanation of that teaching, which can never be as definitive as the teaching itself.
Now if we can just get a straight answer on what are those official documents of the Church (are papal bulls official enough?).

Not when read out of historical, situational, theological, spiritual and magisterial context.

Please please do not derail this particular thread.  Start a new thread if you want to make a long cut and paste statement with maps...please.
Oh, I'm quite the piker when it comes to cutting and pasting.  Who cut and pasted this?
Quote
So the fathers of the fourth Council of Constantinople, following the footsteps of their predecessors, published this solemn profession of faith: "The first condition of salvation is to maintain the rule of the true faith. And since that saying of our lord Jesus Christ, You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, cannot fail of its effect, the words spoken are confirmed by their consequences. For in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been preserved unblemished, and sacred doctrine been held in honor. Since it is our earnest desire to be in no way separated from this faith and doctrine, we hope that we may deserve to remain in that one communion which the Apostolic See preaches, for in it is the whole and true strength of the christian religion."
Cutting and pasting from polemical literature, itself cut and pasted together from the fragmentary acts of a voided council, which itself cut and pasted from a formula that the bishops of the East refused to sign, and those who did, did so only after they took it upon themselves to modify the formula to bring it in line with Orthodoxy:your supreme pontiff has it on me when it comes to cutting and pasting in the promulgation of official documents-Pastor Aeternus is official, no?


Uh...aren't we going a little "off the rails" with this?  As in "derailing" the thread?
 
No.  As Father Ambrose points out, no one seems to be able to come up with a single example.  The Formula of Hormisdas was not issued ex cathedra (at least, it is not usually included in lists of such pronouncements of the "extraordinary magisterium." Vatican apologists claim it was signed by all the bishops of the East (nonsense, but the claim is made), so making it a candidate for this "ordinary magisterium."  The problem is that the real facts, and not the revionist history of the Vatican, disqualifies it.  But what does that mean when the "extraordinary magisterium" of an "ecumenical council" and an "ex cathedra pronouncement" (and Pastor Aeternus is on most lists, and even if it is not, Vatican I is on every list of a follower of the Vatican as an "ecumenical council") dogmatizes the revisionist history?  Does "faith and morals," the purview of "papal infallibility" include such revisionist history?  And if it doesn't, then the Formula of Hormisdas is not an exercise of the "ordinary magisterium," and only the exercise of the "extraordinary magisterium" of "the council of Constantinople IV (869)" and pronouncement of Pastor Aeternus.  But then, we don't have an agreement from you all of what part of an ex cathedra pronouncement or a council are infallible.  If not an infallible part, does the quoted section then fall under the rubric of "ordinary magisterium," and if so, what then is the preceptable difference from the "extraordinary magisterium," as it was issued by what the Vatican claims (now) was an ecumenical council, and (for some) an ex cathedra statement.

Try *this* thread: Orthodox-Catholic Cuts, Pastes, Pretty Maps, and Irrelevant Comments
If I have an irrelevant comment, I shall.  As for cutting and pasting, it would be better if some would embrace citation rather than our side embrace dixit statements and assertions.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,069


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2011, 10:02:30 AM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I would also add:

1. The communion of Saints
2. The resurrection of the body

Both of these are central to faith, but have never been formally and solemnly defined.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2011, 12:16:29 PM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.


I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I would also add:

1. The communion of Saints
2. The resurrection of the body

Both of these are central to faith, but have never been formally and solemnly defined.

Thanks for saving me the headache.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2011, 03:31:56 PM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I confess that I have not seen these examples from Mary.  Where has she posted them?

But they do not constitute an answer to the question and the intention of this thread. The teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium are not "proposals" but infallible teachings.  So If these things are mere proposals then that is not what really interests me.  I would like to have examples of infallible teachings.

Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2011, 04:18:14 PM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I confess that I have not seen these examples from Mary.  Where has she posted them?

But they do not constitute an answer to the question and the intention of this thread. The teachings of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium are not "proposals" but infallible teachings.  So If these things are mere proposals then that is not what really interests me.  I would like to have examples of infallible teachings.



This is hair-splitting of the most absurd kind.  Have fun!!... Wink
Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,839


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2011, 04:39:12 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2011, 04:50:49 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.

Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,839


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2011, 05:01:42 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.


Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2011, 05:09:50 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.


Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


PP

Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible? 
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2011, 05:13:51 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.


Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


PP

Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible? 

LOL...yepper.

They demand the ultimate list of lists...so that when it is not available, they point knobby little fingers and yell "SEE!!!...we knew you were a fake!"

It is a joke.  I know it's only a joke   Wink

The Church that can produce the ULTIMATE list of lists wins...

I'd rudder you not go there...heh...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 05:14:56 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,839


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2011, 05:18:48 PM »

Quote
Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible?
There is no list at all as far as I know. If so, I would like to read it. I'd be interested to know exactly what is infallible and what isn't.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2011, 05:22:40 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.


Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


PP

Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible? 

LOL...yepper.

They demand the ultimate list of lists...so that when it is not available, they point knobby little fingers and yell "SEE!!!...we knew you were a fake!"

It is a joke.  I know it's only a joke   Wink

The Church that can produce the ULTIMATE list of lists wins...

I'd rudder you not go there...heh...

"Lists, lists, I need lists!!!!  Lots of little lists!  And lousy lists!!  And big lists!!  And long lists!! LISTS, I TELL YOU--GIVE.  ME.  LISTS!!!"

Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2011, 05:23:30 PM »

Quote
Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible?
There is no list at all as far as I know. If so, I would like to read it. I'd be interested to know exactly what is infallible and what isn't.

PP

But, you didn't answer my question  Sad.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,839


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2011, 05:25:58 PM »

Quote
Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible?
There is no list at all as far as I know. If so, I would like to read it. I'd be interested to know exactly what is infallible and what isn't.

PP

But, you didn't answer my question  Sad.
That is your answer. If there is no list I cant very well check it to see if its there.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2011, 05:37:01 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.


Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


PP

Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible? 

LOL...yepper.

They demand the ultimate list of lists...so that when it is not available, they point knobby little fingers and yell "SEE!!!...we knew you were a fake!"

It is a joke.  I know it's only a joke   Wink

The Church that can produce the ULTIMATE list of lists wins...

I'd rudder you not go there...heh...

"Lists, lists, I need lists!!!!  Lots of little lists!  And lousy lists!!  And big lists!!  And long lists!! LISTS, I TELL YOU--GIVE.  ME.  LISTS!!!"



 Lips Sealed Lips Sealed Lips Sealed

My darling maniac... Kiss
Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,839


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2011, 05:39:24 PM »

All I'm saying is that if the Infallible doctrine is going to be a big deal, the least they could do is give examples.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2011, 05:43:33 PM »

Quote
Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible?
There is no list at all as far as I know. If so, I would like to read it. I'd be interested to know exactly what is infallible and what isn't.

PP

But, you didn't answer my question  Sad.
That is your answer. If there is no list I cant very well check it to see if its there.

PP

Here are *your* words: Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


This very strongly implies that you are or were looking at *something* and in that *something* "the infallible statement teaching" is absent.  So, what are/were you looking at?  And I'm not joking, either.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2011, 05:45:51 PM »

All I'm saying is that if the Infallible doctrine is going to be a big deal, the least they could do is give examples.

PP

LISTS!!!!!!!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,839


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2011, 05:48:36 PM »

Quote
Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible?
There is no list at all as far as I know. If so, I would like to read it. I'd be interested to know exactly what is infallible and what isn't.

PP

But, you didn't answer my question  Sad.
That is your answer. If there is no list I cant very well check it to see if its there.

PP

Here are *your* words: Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


This very strongly implies that you are or were looking at *something* and in that *something* "the infallible statement teaching" is absent.  So, what are/were you looking at?  And I'm not joking, either.
I was trying to allude to the fact there is no definitive listing of Infallible teachings.

All I'm saying is that if the Infallible doctrine is going to be a big deal, the least they could do is give examples.

PP

LISTS!!!!!!!
Where?

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2011, 05:56:18 PM »

Quote
Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible?
There is no list at all as far as I know. If so, I would like to read it. I'd be interested to know exactly what is infallible and what isn't.

PP

But, you didn't answer my question  Sad.
That is your answer. If there is no list I cant very well check it to see if its there.

PP

Here are *your* words: Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


This very strongly implies that you are or were looking at *something* and in that *something* "the infallible statement teaching" is absent.  So, what are/were you looking at?  And I'm not joking, either.
I was trying to allude to the fact there is no definitive listing of Infallible teachings.

All I'm saying is that if the Infallible doctrine is going to be a big deal, the least they could do is give examples.

PP

LISTS!!!!!!!
Where?

PP

Start with the Decalogue and move on into the Beatitudes.  Those are the first and greatest of the Catholic lists... Smiley

Then carry on to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Then the canons...all of them...which are to be respected.  Then all of them which have been received: which are to be believed in faith.

Then head for the liturgical cycle....

This is the life of the universal ordinary magisterium...as they go and make disciples.

No joke.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 05:57:51 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,945


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2011, 05:59:18 PM »

Quote
Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible?
There is no list at all as far as I know. If so, I would like to read it. I'd be interested to know exactly what is infallible and what isn't.

PP

But, you didn't answer my question  Sad.
That is your answer. If there is no list I cant very well check it to see if its there.

PP

Here are *your* words: Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


This very strongly implies that you are or were looking at *something* and in that *something* "the infallible statement teaching" is absent.  So, what are/were you looking at?  And I'm not joking, either.
I was trying to allude to the fact there is no definitive listing of Infallible teachings.

All I'm saying is that if the Infallible doctrine is going to be a big deal, the least they could do is give examples.

PP

LISTS!!!!!!!
Where?

PP

Start with the Decalogue and move on into the Beatitudes.  Those are the first and greatest of the Catholic lists... Smiley

The carry on to the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Then the canons...all of them...which are to be respected.  Then all of them which have been received: which are to be believed in faith.

Then head for the liturgical cycle....

This is the life of the universal ordinary magisterium...as they go and make disciples.

No joke.

There you have it, PP (and all you other listophiles) Wink!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2011, 06:16:22 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.


Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


PP

Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible? 

LOL...yepper.

They demand the ultimate list of lists...so that when it is not available, they point knobby little fingers and yell "SEE!!!...we knew you were a fake!"

It is a joke.  I know it's only a joke   Wink

The Church that can produce the ULTIMATE list of lists wins...

I'd rudder you not go there...heh...

You are all being quite silly, a tactic, I presume, to cover your inability to answer the question. laugh

I have NOT asked you for lists of infallible statements, so please do not make out that I have.  We are already quite well aware that you cannot do that.

I have asked you (see the OP) for two or three example of the working of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium in proclaiming infallible statements.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2011, 07:45:09 PM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.


Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


PP

Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible? 

LOL...yepper.

They demand the ultimate list of lists...so that when it is not available, they point knobby little fingers and yell "SEE!!!...we knew you were a fake!"

It is a joke.  I know it's only a joke   Wink

The Church that can produce the ULTIMATE list of lists wins...

I'd rudder you not go there...heh...

You are all being quite silly, a tactic, I presume, to cover your inability to answer the question. laugh

I have NOT asked you for lists of infallible statements, so please do not make out that I have.  We are already quite well aware that you cannot do that.

I have asked you (see the OP) for two or three example of the working of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium in proclaiming infallible statements.

You missed the memo...again.

I've given you examples and now I've even offered lists...multiple lists.

See above.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 07:45:41 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2011, 08:16:36 PM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I would also add:

1. The communion of Saints
2. The resurrection of the body

Both of these are central to faith, but have never been formally and solemnly defined.

You omitted Limbo
the material fire of purgatory.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:17:35 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2011, 08:21:12 PM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I would also add:

1. The communion of Saints
2. The resurrection of the body

Both of these are central to faith, but have never been formally and solemnly defined.

You omitted Limbo
the material fire of purgatory.

Nope.  Sorry.  Those things are speculative and always have been.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,613



« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2011, 12:57:50 AM »

Well, not to make a joke, but I would assume that the RC's teaching of Infallible Teaching would at least be set as infallible.......

PP

This isn't a joke.  You are not going to find it.

ALL of revelation is the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church.  It has many sources. 

It is CONFIRMED by the bishops speaking together.

It is DEFINED when the bishops and the pope speak in council or when the pope speaks in accord with the infallibility of the tradition of the Church.

The closest thing we've ever come to a "book" outside of Scripture is the CCC.

The rest of this discussion of lists, that is sponsored in the main by Father Ambrose and al Misry,  is meaningless.


Im not joking. If the infallible statement teaching isn't even listed as infallible, it makes me wonder if they're simply nervous about being proven wrong later then the Church can then say, "Well, it wasn't infallible so......."


PP

Where are you looking that you see that it isn't listed as infallible? 

LOL...yepper.

They demand the ultimate list of lists...so that when it is not available, they point knobby little fingers and yell "SEE!!!...we knew you were a fake!"

It is a joke.  I know it's only a joke   Wink

The Church that can produce the ULTIMATE list of lists wins...

I'd rudder you not go there...heh...

"Lists, lists, I need lists!!!!  Lots of little lists!  And lousy lists!!  And big lists!!  And long lists!! LISTS, I TELL YOU--GIVE.  ME.  LISTS!!!"



 Lips Sealed Lips Sealed Lips Sealed

My darling maniac... Kiss
Lists.  LOL. We haven't been even given an example, let alone a list.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,613



« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2011, 01:01:04 AM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I would also add:

1. The communion of Saints
2. The resurrection of the body

Both of these are central to faith, but have never been formally and solemnly defined.
Except for an argument on (4), they are all formally taught in scripture-definitely "extraordinary" "magisterium."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2011, 01:06:58 AM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I would also add:

1. The communion of Saints
2. The resurrection of the body

Both of these are central to faith, but have never been formally and solemnly defined.

You omitted Limbo
the material fire of purgatory.

Nope.  Sorry.  Those things are speculative and always have been.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.
Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,069


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2011, 02:04:38 AM »


Quote from: Irish Hermit
I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I have asked for merely 2 or 3 instances of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium at work proclaiming infallible teaching, without issuing magisterial statements.

Not one person has been able to offer even one example.
I thought elijahmaria gave examples:

Among those which are proposed to us by the ordinary and universal Magisterium are: (1) the spirituality of the soul; (2) the particular judgment after death; (3) the entrustment of human beings to guardian angels; (4) that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians; (5) the evil of murder of an innocent; (6) that it is never permitted to do evil (commit sin) that good might come of it.

I would also add:

1. The communion of Saints
2. The resurrection of the body

Both of these are central to faith, but have never been formally and solemnly defined.

You omitted Limbo
the material fire of purgatory.

Nope.  Sorry.  Those things are speculative and always have been.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.
It is possible that a teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium is not infallible. For instance, such a teaching may be universally held by the bishops, but the bishops may not all agree that the teaching should be held as definitive or infallible.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2011, 02:56:09 AM »


It is possible that a teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium is not infallible. For instance, such a teaching may be universally held by the bishops, but the bishops may not all agree that the teaching should be held as definitive or infallible.


“Explicit claims to the infallibility of the ordinary universal magisterium first appeared in ecclesiastical documents in the 1863 apostolic letter Tuas libenter of Pius IX. That teaching was adapted at Vatican I and with a few exceptions received only cursory treatment in various dogmatic manuals in the period between Vatican I and Vatican II.3 Perhaps because of the conciliar definition on papal infallibility at Vatican I and Pius XII’s solemn definition in 1950 of the Assumption of Mary, most ecclesiological treatments of infallibility between the two councils focused on questions related to papal infallibility. Since Vatican II, however, discussion of infallibility and claims to its formal exercise have shifted to the infallibility of the college of bishops not while they are gathered in council but while dispersed throughout the world. This development needs to be considered in greater detail.”

http://www.ministryforwomen.org/teaching/gaillard.asp
(Not a site liked by all Catholics but in this case it merely teaches what may be found on other Catholic sites)


For example:

“The term ordinary universal Magisterium means an exercise of the Church's teaching office where there is complete agreement, or fairly close to complete agreement, among the Catholic Bishops of the world that a particular doctrine is certainly true, but without a solemn definition. 

“... Likewise, the ordinary universal Magisterium is infallible. The fact that the bishops are dispersed throughout the world' (in the words of Vatican II quoted above) does not make any difference.”

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/jyoung.html
Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,069


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2011, 03:39:59 AM »


It is possible that a teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium is not infallible. For instance, such a teaching may be universally held by the bishops, but the bishops may not all agree that the teaching should be held as definitive or infallible.


“Explicit claims to the infallibility of the ordinary universal magisterium first appeared in ecclesiastical documents in the 1863 apostolic letter Tuas libenter of Pius IX. That teaching was adapted at Vatican I and with a few exceptions received only cursory treatment in various dogmatic manuals in the period between Vatican I and Vatican II.3 Perhaps because of the conciliar definition on papal infallibility at Vatican I and Pius XII’s solemn definition in 1950 of the Assumption of Mary, most ecclesiological treatments of infallibility between the two councils focused on questions related to papal infallibility. Since Vatican II, however, discussion of infallibility and claims to its formal exercise have shifted to the infallibility of the college of bishops not while they are gathered in council but while dispersed throughout the world. This development needs to be considered in greater detail.”

http://www.ministryforwomen.org/teaching/gaillard.asp
(Not a site liked by all Catholics but in this case it merely teaches what may be found on other Catholic sites)


For example:

“The term ordinary universal Magisterium means an exercise of the Church's teaching office where there is complete agreement, or fairly close to complete agreement, among the Catholic Bishops of the world that a particular doctrine is certainly true, but without a solemn definition. 

“... Likewise, the ordinary universal Magisterium is infallible. The fact that the bishops are dispersed throughout the world' (in the words of Vatican II quoted above) does not make any difference.”

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/jyoung.html

As you can see, the understanding of exactly how the ordinary universal magisterium functions, is in flux.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.212 seconds with 72 queries.