Author Topic: Materia of the Mysteria  (Read 399 times)

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Offline Caelestinus

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Materia of the Mysteria
« on: December 03, 2011, 11:32:06 AM »
Is ist true, that in Orthodoxy it is considered possible and legitim, that in cases of (extreme) necessity the materia of the mysteria (=sacraments) can be changed/substituted, i.e. that - being in a Gulag- water instead of the mixture of wine and water can be used as materia of the blood of Christ or - being in a desert - sand instead of water for baptism, if there is not the right materia at arm's length?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 11:33:30 AM by Caelestinus »

Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Materia of the Mysteria
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 03:11:53 PM »
the materia of the mysteria

The correct word, as I came to know later, is 'matter'.


(Sorry, I'am not an anglophone.)

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Materia of the Mysteria
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 04:27:21 PM »
Is ist true, that in Orthodoxy it is considered possible and legitim, that in cases of (extreme) necessity the materia of the mysteria (=sacraments) can be changed/substituted, i.e. that - being in a Gulag- water instead of the mixture of wine and water can be used as materia of the blood of Christ or - being in a desert - sand instead of water for baptism, if there is not the right materia at arm's length?

I don't think the Church has an official position it. In many Lives of the Saints, God provides what is lacking so that human beings would not be forced into presumption. I'd need to see specifics in texts about using water instead of wine.
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Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Materia of the Mysteria
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 04:50:48 PM »
Is ist true, that in Orthodoxy it is considered possible and legitim, that in cases of (extreme) necessity the materia of the mysteria (=sacraments) can be changed/substituted, i.e. that - being in a Gulag- water instead of the mixture of wine and water can be used as materia of the blood of Christ or - being in a desert - sand instead of water for baptism, if there is not the right materia at arm's length?

I don't think the Church has an official position it. In many Lives of the Saints, God provides what is lacking so that human beings would not be forced into presumption. I'd need to see specifics in texts about using water instead of wine.

Oral, not written.

The general question is: Does Orthodoxy aknowledge, that specific matters are instituted by the Lord himself, who must not be substituted under no circumstances, even if it's for the sake of the salvation of an individual.

For example, the mixture of water and wine can not be substituted by water alone (see Quinisextum / Trulllanum) without violating the Lord's will.

The question behind is: is it possible to speak of a 'divine law' for an Orthodox or is everthing under the episkope (and may be altered according to circumstances and kat'oikonomian aspects)?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 04:51:46 PM by Caelestinus »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Materia of the Mysteria
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2012, 01:18:57 AM »
I don't think such abstractions really help one come to a full and true understanding.

Water is necessary for baptism, for example. And yet, in cases of extreme need, aerobaptism can be performed, but if the child lives, a water baptism is done according to the rules that have been set down.

I would like to know what your motivation is for asking the question.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.