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Author Topic: Vatican re-issues Ratzinger defence of Magisterium on divorce  (Read 6761 times) Average Rating: 0
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Deacon Lance
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« Reply #135 on: December 10, 2011, 12:29:08 PM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



I am not disputing they spent time at Holy Myrrhbearers, I am saying Mother Theodora (Sister Celeste) was a monastic for many years and she and Sister Julie have been living at the monastery since April 2009.   You make it sound like they walked off the street, spent three months at Holy Myrrhbearers and presto, Eastern Catholic nuns.
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« Reply #136 on: December 10, 2011, 03:34:45 PM »

....it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
It may take two to tango, but it is possible for one spouse to destroy a marriage.  


I give up.  I don't agree, but I give up.  Time to move on.  As it happens, contrary to what others may say or think, I do know very well of what I speak--unfortunately I'm just not communicating it effectively here, and enough is enough.  Ego redono.  satis.

Actually, it can take 1 spouse to destroy the marriage. I know my wife at the time told my sister-in-law she was leaving me because I became a "religious @**hole" because I started taking my spiritual life more serious.

PP

This is not a blame game.  The whole question arose because of the idea that BOTH spouses or EITHER spouse should confess after a divorce.

The idea of blamelessness in hardly a question of sinlessness: PARTICULARLY with a Church that begs forgiveness for sins committed in knowledge and in ignorance...right?

So a good confession harms no one and fixes no blame except that which the sinner is willing to take upon themselves and for which they ask and receive forgiveness.

These latest responses to that idea are embarrassing: or should be.

A priest would not proceed with a confession and give absolution to a person who spoke of her 'blamefulness' but had no actual sins to confess. If he is a good priest he should try to help her discern the roots of her feeling of blamefulness and ascertain if there has been any sin.

I have to confess that your message puzzles me.

Could you point to where I suggest that one confesses "blamefulness"?

Perhaps you mistook this that I DID say: The idea of blamelessness in hardly a question of sinlessness...

That means that one can claim to be blameless but it does not mean at all that they are not sinless.

And that means that I think both parties of a divorce should speak to a priest in confession about their behavior in a marriage rather than announcing that they are "blameless."

I am surprised you missed that.
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« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2011, 03:34:45 PM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



I am not disputing they spent time at Holy Myrrhbearers, I am saying Mother Theodora (Sister Celeste) was a monastic for many years and she and Sister Julie have been living at the monastery since April 2009.   You make it sound like they walked off the street, spent three months at Holy Myrrhbearers and presto, Eastern Catholic nuns.

Rather than arguing any points on this one we should celebrate the fact that these women, who are essentially outside of communion with one another, do not allow that sad fact to stop them from sharing common beliefs, common prayer, common praxis, and common life in the spirit.

I love the community at Ortega and know that the women of both communities benefited from the interaction in the grace of love, if in no other way.

God bless and provide for them all!!...

This is how we will be able to resume communion one day in a holy and seamless manner.
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« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2011, 04:02:06 PM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



I am not disputing they spent time at Holy Myrrhbearers, I am saying Mother Theodora (Sister Celeste) was a monastic for many years and she and Sister Julie have been living at the monastery since April 2009.   You make it sound like they walked off the street, spent three months at Holy Myrrhbearers and presto, Eastern Catholic nuns.

I have been told that the 'feel' of Orthodox monasticism in the home monastery of the superior of the new Christ the Bridegroom is very 'thin' (whatever that means.)  Hence the reason she and the other two nuns spent a time of formation in the Orthodox Ortega monastery. "......the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community... who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."

Of course my point in posting the information was not to argue the toss but to celebrate what has taken place.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 04:06:40 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: December 10, 2011, 04:03:51 PM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



I am not disputing they spent time at Holy Myrrhbearers, I am saying Mother Theodora (Sister Celeste) was a monastic for many years and she and Sister Julie have been living at the monastery since April 2009.   You make it sound like they walked off the street, spent three months at Holy Myrrhbearers and presto, Eastern Catholic nuns.

Rather than arguing any points on this one we should celebrate the fact that these women, who are essentially outside of communion with one another, do not allow that sad fact to stop them from sharing common beliefs, common prayer, common praxis, and common life in the spirit.
provide for them all!!...


Yes. Precisely why I posted the information.
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« Reply #140 on: December 10, 2011, 04:59:34 PM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



I am not disputing they spent time at Holy Myrrhbearers, I am saying Mother Theodora (Sister Celeste) was a monastic for many years and she and Sister Julie have been living at the monastery since April 2009.   You make it sound like they walked off the street, spent three months at Holy Myrrhbearers and presto, Eastern Catholic nuns.

Rather than arguing any points on this one we should celebrate the fact that these women, who are essentially outside of communion with one another, do not allow that sad fact to stop them from sharing common beliefs, common prayer, common praxis, and common life in the spirit.
provide for them all!!...


Yes. Precisely why I posted the information.

And thank you for making the relationship more widely known!!
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« Reply #141 on: December 10, 2011, 05:03:05 PM »

A priest would not proceed with a confession and give absolution to a person who spoke of her 'blamefulness' but had no actual sins to confess.
I think that is right. As I understand it, an essential element of confession is the confession of sins. If one of the partners in the marriage has not committed any sin in a divorce situation, then he would not have anything to confess in this area. One person can destroy a marriage, much to the chagrin of the other, who might be working hard to keep the marriage intact, in spite of the extramarital affairs of his spouse.
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« Reply #142 on: December 11, 2011, 07:26:06 AM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



I am not disputing they spent time at Holy Myrrhbearers, I am saying Mother Theodora (Sister Celeste) was a monastic for many years and she and Sister Julie have been living at the monastery since April 2009.   You make it sound like they walked off the street, spent three months at Holy Myrrhbearers and presto, Eastern Catholic nuns.

Rather than arguing any points on this one we should celebrate the fact that these women, who are essentially outside of communion with one another, do not allow that sad fact to stop them from sharing common beliefs, common prayer, common praxis, and common life in the spirit.

I love the community at Ortega and know that the women of both communities benefited from the interaction in the grace of love, if in no other way.

God bless and provide for them all!!...

This is how we will be able to resume communion one day in a holy and seamless manner.

I think that is a pipe dream.  I see any coming together of Eastern Orthodoxii and RC people as the RC joining the EO church.  The RC has strayed way too far away from the orignial church beliefs that at this point the word reunion is just a false word.
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« Reply #143 on: December 11, 2011, 01:07:48 PM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



I am not disputing they spent time at Holy Myrrhbearers, I am saying Mother Theodora (Sister Celeste) was a monastic for many years and she and Sister Julie have been living at the monastery since April 2009.   You make it sound like they walked off the street, spent three months at Holy Myrrhbearers and presto, Eastern Catholic nuns.

Rather than arguing any points on this one we should celebrate the fact that these women, who are essentially outside of communion with one another, do not allow that sad fact to stop them from sharing common beliefs, common prayer, common praxis, and common life in the spirit.

I love the community at Ortega and know that the women of both communities benefited from the interaction in the grace of love, if in no other way.

God bless and provide for them all!!...

This is how we will be able to resume communion one day in a holy and seamless manner.

I think that is a pipe dream.  I see any coming together of Eastern Orthodoxii and RC people as the RC joining the EO church.  The RC has strayed way too far away from the orignial church beliefs that at this point the word reunion is just a false word.
Well of course you think that. You're Eastern Orthodox. What else are you going to think? I tend to be less optimistic than Elijahmaria about resumption of communion. I think it is far off (at best) and may even never happen.
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« Reply #144 on: December 12, 2011, 10:47:09 PM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



I am not disputing they spent time at Holy Myrrhbearers, I am saying Mother Theodora (Sister Celeste) was a monastic for many years and she and Sister Julie have been living at the monastery since April 2009.   You make it sound like they walked off the street, spent three months at Holy Myrrhbearers and presto, Eastern Catholic nuns.

Rather than arguing any points on this one we should celebrate the fact that these women, who are essentially outside of communion with one another, do not allow that sad fact to stop them from sharing common beliefs, common prayer, common praxis, and common life in the spirit.

I love the community at Ortega and know that the women of both communities benefited from the interaction in the grace of love, if in no other way.

God bless and provide for them all!!...

This is how we will be able to resume communion one day in a holy and seamless manner.

I think that is a pipe dream.  I see any coming together of Eastern Orthodoxii and RC people as the RC joining the EO church.  The RC has strayed way too far away from the orignial church beliefs that at this point the word reunion is just a false word.

The continuing dialogue is a bit of a mess, with the Catholics trying to
propagate multiple misconceptions in their understanding of Orthodoxy.

We have Pope Benedict in Rome, who ought to know better, mischievously
insisting that the Orthodox do not regard a second marriage as sacrament.

We have Mary Lanser making out that the Orthodox are OK with abortion.

We have Cardinal Kasper trying to pretend that we have always had a teaching
of universal primacy.

It just gets worse. Please, Catholics, stop misrepresenting Orthodoxy!
You're really harming the dialogue.
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« Reply #145 on: December 12, 2011, 11:30:20 PM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



Father, bless,

Is it not problematic that these nuns were apparently given the impression by Monastery of the Myrrhbearers that divisions in communion and faith are unimportant so long as praxis is similar?
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« Reply #146 on: December 13, 2011, 01:34:47 AM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174



Father, bless,

Is it not problematic that these nuns were apparently given the impression by Monastery of the Myrrhbearers that divisions in communion and faith are unimportant so long as praxis is similar?

I really do not know what impressions the Orthodox sisters gave to the Eastern Catholics and we do not know what fruit will come about in the future.  The similarity of praxis is a bonus inasmuch as it makes conversion easier. 

When I was a whippersnapper there was an exchange scheme between the Anglicans and the Serbs.  Five Orthodox nuns went to England to experience life in an Anglican convent and five Anglican nuns went to a Serbian monastery.  The serendipity result was the conversion to Orthodoxy of Mother Maria (Rule) who went on to translate the Okhrid Prologue into English (and many other items) and to rebuild Gradac monastery from the ground up.

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« Reply #147 on: December 13, 2011, 02:40:20 AM »

someone close to me has been waiting 5 years for their annulment. her husband beat her and mentally tortured her.  She has a fiance, he bought and remodeled a house for them.  Still she waits in the lurch, growing older day by day and not being able in the RCC's eye to marry her fiance. Is it fair that she should be kept from her new life because her "still husband in the eyes of the Vatican" beat her and made her life miserable?  You have to give her credit, she could easily go to the courthouse and get it over with, and leave the Catholic church whilst waiting for that annulment. 
I'd be on the phone with the Vatican daily saying, give me my annulment sheesh
I'm actually surprised that she is having as much difficulty as this. Cases I have heard where people have gone to a marriage tribunal usually end up getting their marriage declared null. I suppose it could vary by diocese.
It could be that a declaration of nullity was not founded with the evidence presented.
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« Reply #148 on: December 13, 2011, 01:32:56 PM »


We have Mary Lanser making out that the Orthodox are OK with abortion.


Mary Lanser is reflecting conversations with ORTHODOX clergy and monastics and laity who seem to be more than a little distressed that their bishops have said so little about abortion over time, and also that some of their bishops have expressed the idea that exceptions can be made for conceptions that are a result of rape or incest.

So you may foozle all you want to about it.  I calls as I sees it.

Actually I do not judge it.  I know it should be different, in those cases where a bishop makes allowances, and that much most of us agree upon.
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« Reply #149 on: December 13, 2011, 03:23:20 PM »

When I was a whippersnapper there was an exchange scheme between the Anglicans and the Serbs.  Five Orthodox nuns went to England to experience life in an Anglican convent and five Anglican nuns went to a Serbian monastery.  The serendipity result was the conversion to Orthodoxy of Mother Maria (Rule) who went on to translate the Okhrid Prologue into English (and many other items) and to rebuild Gradac monastery from the ground up.


Glory to God!
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« Reply #150 on: December 13, 2011, 03:38:10 PM »


We have Mary Lanser making out that the Orthodox are OK with abortion.


Mary Lanser is reflecting conversations with ORTHODOX clergy and monastics and laity who seem to be more than a little distressed that their bishops have said so little about abortion over time, and also that some of their bishops have expressed the idea that exceptions can be made for conceptions that are a result of rape or incest.


You may be right.  Catholics in this country who run the anti-abortion movement complain that the Catholic bishops do very little in the fight against abortion.  They are accused of having no desire to upset prevailing politics and politicians.  Some think they want to safeguard the maintenance of the Catholic school system and the flow of state money (fully funded by the state.).  One also hears rumours that, out of the public ear, some of the bishops are soft on abortion.
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« Reply #151 on: December 13, 2011, 04:08:19 PM »


We have Mary Lanser making out that the Orthodox are OK with abortion.


Mary Lanser is reflecting conversations with ORTHODOX clergy and monastics and laity who seem to be more than a little distressed that their bishops have said so little about abortion over time, and also that some of their bishops have expressed the idea that exceptions can be made for conceptions that are a result of rape or incest.


You may be right.  Catholics in this country who run the anti-abortion movement complain that the Catholic bishops do very little in the fight against abortion.  They are accused of having no desire to upset prevailing politics and politicians.  Some think they want to safeguard the maintenance of the Catholic school system and the flow of state money (fully funded by the state.).  One also hears rumours that, out of the public ear, some of the bishops are soft on abortion.
An accusation not without merit on some cases. I just think that all should just say, its murder and leave it at that and stay strong. Unfortunately, it will never be that cut and dry Sad

PP
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« Reply #152 on: December 28, 2011, 12:37:35 PM »

someone close to me has been waiting 5 years for their annulment. her husband beat her and mentally tortured her.  She has a fiance, he bought and remodeled a house for them.  Still she waits in the lurch, growing older day by day and not being able in the RCC's eye to marry her fiance. Is it fair that she should be kept from her new life because her "still husband in the eyes of the Vatican" beat her and made her life miserable?  You have to give her credit, she could easily go to the courthouse and get it over with, and leave the Catholic church whilst waiting for that annulment.  
I'd be on the phone with the Vatican daily saying, give me my annulment sheesh
I'm actually surprised that she is having as much difficulty as this. Cases I have heard where people have gone to a marriage tribunal usually end up getting their marriage declared null. I suppose it could vary by diocese.
It could be that a declaration of nullity was not founded with the evidence presented.
With Newt being in the news, I am making the assUmption that he had gotten an anullment to make his marriage to Callista (responsible for his conversion to the Vatican, I understand) OK.  Now we get a little of the details:
Quote
"He (Gingrich) said, 'You know and I know that she's not young enough or pretty enough to be the wife of a president,' " Carter, who now lives in South Carolina, told CNN recently, relating the conversation he had with Gingrich the day Gingrich revealed he was filing for divorce. Carter served as treasurer of Gingrich's first congressional campaigns.
 
Carter, who was a fellow history professor when Gingrich taught at West Georgia College in Carrollton, said he broke off his friendship with Newt Gingrich because of the congressman's treatment of his wife during the divorce.

When Gingrich filed for divorce, he was already seeing a 28-year-old congressional aide, whom he married six months after his divorce was final in 1981. The second wife, Marianne Ginther Gingrich, told Esquire magazine last year that Gingrich even introduced her to his parents in the summer of 1980, the same time he filed for divorce.
 
"They were thrilled because they hadn't wanted Newt to marry (Jackie Battley)," she told Esquire.
 
Gingrich divorced Marianne Gingrich 19 years later, after an affair with a younger congressional aide whom he married soon after his divorce. The third wife, Callista Bisek Gingrich, is now a major figure in his presidential campaign.

"When asked, Gingrich has admitted he has not led a perfect life and has at times had to go to God for forgiveness," Hammond said. "Over 30 years later, the family has long put these matters behind them."
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/26/politics/gingrich-divorce-file/index.html
That final note is all fine and good, and Christian. It is, however, insufficient for the Vatican to allow a remarriage.

So, I'm curious, according to their supreme pontiff, are Newt and Callista A O.K., with nothing to repent of in regard to their marriage?  
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« Reply #153 on: December 28, 2011, 12:39:36 PM »

Im sure "arrangements" were made.

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« Reply #154 on: December 29, 2011, 05:59:56 PM »

someone close to me has been waiting 5 years for their annulment. her husband beat her and mentally tortured her.  She has a fiance, he bought and remodeled a house for them.  Still she waits in the lurch, growing older day by day and not being able in the RCC's eye to marry her fiance. Is it fair that she should be kept from her new life because her "still husband in the eyes of the Vatican" beat her and made her life miserable?  You have to give her credit, she could easily go to the courthouse and get it over with, and leave the Catholic church whilst waiting for that annulment.  
I'd be on the phone with the Vatican daily saying, give me my annulment sheesh
I'm actually surprised that she is having as much difficulty as this. Cases I have heard where people have gone to a marriage tribunal usually end up getting their marriage declared null. I suppose it could vary by diocese.
It could be that a declaration of nullity was not founded with the evidence presented.
With Newt being in the news, I am making the assUmption that he had gotten an anullment to make his marriage to Callista (responsible for his conversion to the Vatican, I understand) OK.  Now we get a little of the details:
Quote
"He (Gingrich) said, 'You know and I know that she's not young enough or pretty enough to be the wife of a president,' " Carter, who now lives in South Carolina, told CNN recently, relating the conversation he had with Gingrich the day Gingrich revealed he was filing for divorce. Carter served as treasurer of Gingrich's first congressional campaigns.
 
Carter, who was a fellow history professor when Gingrich taught at West Georgia College in Carrollton, said he broke off his friendship with Newt Gingrich because of the congressman's treatment of his wife during the divorce.

When Gingrich filed for divorce, he was already seeing a 28-year-old congressional aide, whom he married six months after his divorce was final in 1981. The second wife, Marianne Ginther Gingrich, told Esquire magazine last year that Gingrich even introduced her to his parents in the summer of 1980, the same time he filed for divorce.
 
"They were thrilled because they hadn't wanted Newt to marry (Jackie Battley)," she told Esquire.
 
Gingrich divorced Marianne Gingrich 19 years later, after an affair with a younger congressional aide whom he married soon after his divorce. The third wife, Callista Bisek Gingrich, is now a major figure in his presidential campaign.

"When asked, Gingrich has admitted he has not led a perfect life and has at times had to go to God for forgiveness," Hammond said. "Over 30 years later, the family has long put these matters behind them."
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/26/politics/gingrich-divorce-file/index.html
That final note is all fine and good, and Christian. It is, however, insufficient for the Vatican to allow a remarriage.

So, I'm curious, according to their supreme pontiff, are Newt and Callista A O.K., with nothing to repent of in regard to their marriage?  
There seems to be something terribly amiss in this theory of marriage annulments. In cases such as mentioned above, the marriage is valid and OK until one of the partners is unfaithful. When that point is reached, questions are brought up about the validity of the Sacrament.
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« Reply #155 on: January 04, 2012, 03:38:56 AM »

someone close to me has been waiting 5 years for their annulment. her husband beat her and mentally tortured her.  She has a fiance, he bought and remodeled a house for them.  Still she waits in the lurch, growing older day by day and not being able in the RCC's eye to marry her fiance. Is it fair that she should be kept from her new life because her "still husband in the eyes of the Vatican" beat her and made her life miserable?  You have to give her credit, she could easily go to the courthouse and get it over with, and leave the Catholic church whilst waiting for that annulment.  
I'd be on the phone with the Vatican daily saying, give me my annulment sheesh
I'm actually surprised that she is having as much difficulty as this. Cases I have heard where people have gone to a marriage tribunal usually end up getting their marriage declared null. I suppose it could vary by diocese.
It could be that a declaration of nullity was not founded with the evidence presented.
With Newt being in the news, I am making the assUmption that he had gotten an anullment to make his marriage to Callista (responsible for his conversion to the Vatican, I understand) OK.  Now we get a little of the details:
Quote
"He (Gingrich) said, 'You know and I know that she's not young enough or pretty enough to be the wife of a president,' " Carter, who now lives in South Carolina, told CNN recently, relating the conversation he had with Gingrich the day Gingrich revealed he was filing for divorce. Carter served as treasurer of Gingrich's first congressional campaigns.
 
Carter, who was a fellow history professor when Gingrich taught at West Georgia College in Carrollton, said he broke off his friendship with Newt Gingrich because of the congressman's treatment of his wife during the divorce.

When Gingrich filed for divorce, he was already seeing a 28-year-old congressional aide, whom he married six months after his divorce was final in 1981. The second wife, Marianne Ginther Gingrich, told Esquire magazine last year that Gingrich even introduced her to his parents in the summer of 1980, the same time he filed for divorce.
 
"They were thrilled because they hadn't wanted Newt to marry (Jackie Battley)," she told Esquire.
 
Gingrich divorced Marianne Gingrich 19 years later, after an affair with a younger congressional aide whom he married soon after his divorce. The third wife, Callista Bisek Gingrich, is now a major figure in his presidential campaign.

"When asked, Gingrich has admitted he has not led a perfect life and has at times had to go to God for forgiveness," Hammond said. "Over 30 years later, the family has long put these matters behind them."
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/26/politics/gingrich-divorce-file/index.html
That final note is all fine and good, and Christian. It is, however, insufficient for the Vatican to allow a remarriage.

So, I'm curious, according to their supreme pontiff, are Newt and Callista A O.K., with nothing to repent of in regard to their marriage?  
There seems to be something terribly amiss in this theory of marriage annulments. In cases such as mentioned above, the marriage is valid and OK until one of the partners is unfaithful. When that point is reached, questions are brought up about the validity of the Sacrament.
The way I have heard it explained is like this. The proof that a marriage is valid (meaning that a Sacrament has occurred) is that the couple will stay together and their marriage works out. To me, that reasoning makes sense because, if the marriage is crumbling, it would indicate that Sacramental grace may not have been present in the relationship. I'm sure that Catholics and Orthodox would agree that the ultimate thing that makes a marriage last and truly work is the presence of God's grace. Because of this, I don't think it is that farfetched that serious issues within a marriage (such as infidelity) indicates that the Sacrament of Matrimony may not have taken place.
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« Reply #156 on: June 02, 2013, 08:34:23 PM »

someone close to me has been waiting 5 years for their annulment. her husband beat her and mentally tortured her.  She has a fiance, he bought and remodeled a house for them.  Still she waits in the lurch, growing older day by day and not being able in the RCC's eye to marry her fiance. Is it fair that she should be kept from her new life because her "still husband in the eyes of the Vatican" beat her and made her life miserable?  You have to give her credit, she could easily go to the courthouse and get it over with, and leave the Catholic church whilst waiting for that annulment.  
I'd be on the phone with the Vatican daily saying, give me my annulment sheesh
I'm actually surprised that she is having as much difficulty as this. Cases I have heard where people have gone to a marriage tribunal usually end up getting their marriage declared null. I suppose it could vary by diocese.
It could be that a declaration of nullity was not founded with the evidence presented.
With Newt being in the news, I am making the assUmption that he had gotten an anullment to make his marriage to Callista (responsible for his conversion to the Vatican, I understand) OK.  Now we get a little of the details:
Quote
"He (Gingrich) said, 'You know and I know that she's not young enough or pretty enough to be the wife of a president,' " Carter, who now lives in South Carolina, told CNN recently, relating the conversation he had with Gingrich the day Gingrich revealed he was filing for divorce. Carter served as treasurer of Gingrich's first congressional campaigns.
 
Carter, who was a fellow history professor when Gingrich taught at West Georgia College in Carrollton, said he broke off his friendship with Newt Gingrich because of the congressman's treatment of his wife during the divorce.

When Gingrich filed for divorce, he was already seeing a 28-year-old congressional aide, whom he married six months after his divorce was final in 1981. The second wife, Marianne Ginther Gingrich, told Esquire magazine last year that Gingrich even introduced her to his parents in the summer of 1980, the same time he filed for divorce.
 
"They were thrilled because they hadn't wanted Newt to marry (Jackie Battley)," she told Esquire.
 
Gingrich divorced Marianne Gingrich 19 years later, after an affair with a younger congressional aide whom he married soon after his divorce. The third wife, Callista Bisek Gingrich, is now a major figure in his presidential campaign.

"When asked, Gingrich has admitted he has not led a perfect life and has at times had to go to God for forgiveness," Hammond said. "Over 30 years later, the family has long put these matters behind them."
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/26/politics/gingrich-divorce-file/index.html
That final note is all fine and good, and Christian. It is, however, insufficient for the Vatican to allow a remarriage.

So, I'm curious, according to their supreme pontiff, are Newt and Callista A O.K., with nothing to repent of in regard to their marriage?  
There seems to be something terribly amiss in this theory of marriage annulments. In cases such as mentioned above, the marriage is valid and OK until one of the partners is unfaithful. When that point is reached, questions are brought up about the validity of the Sacrament.
The way I have heard it explained is like this. The proof that a marriage is valid (meaning that a Sacrament has occurred) is that the couple will stay together and their marriage works out. To me, that reasoning makes sense because, if the marriage is crumbling, it would indicate that Sacramental grace may not have been present in the relationship. I'm sure that Catholics and Orthodox would agree that the ultimate thing that makes a marriage last and truly work is the presence of God's grace. Because of this, I don't think it is that farfetched that serious issues within a marriage (such as infidelity) indicates that the Sacrament of Matrimony may not have taken place.
Was that the Roman Catholic teaching in 1930 when the marriage annulments in the USA were running at about 10 or so per year? Or is that an essential change in Catholic teaching which came into effect after 1970, when marriage annulments in the USA were as high as 60,000 per year?
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« Reply #157 on: June 03, 2013, 08:27:38 AM »

Newt Gingrich.....first class scumbag.

Quote
Because of this, I don't think it is that farfetched that serious issues within a marriage (such as infidelity) indicates that the Sacrament of Matrimony may not have taken place
Or that they're just sinners who screwed up, and there's nothing wrong with the sacrament.

PP
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 08:27:54 AM by primuspilus » Logged

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« Reply #158 on: June 03, 2013, 08:59:49 AM »

The way I have heard it explained is like this. The proof that a marriage is valid (meaning that a Sacrament has occurred) is that the couple will stay together and their marriage works out. To me, that reasoning makes sense because, if the marriage is crumbling, it would indicate that Sacramental grace may not have been present in the relationship. I'm sure that Catholics and Orthodox would agree that the ultimate thing that makes a marriage last and truly work is the presence of God's grace. Because of this, I don't think it is that farfetched that serious issues within a marriage (such as infidelity) indicates that the Sacrament of Matrimony may not have taken place.

Nonsense!

If an ordained priest, for some reason leaves the clergy, does that mean that there was no "sacramental grace" present during his ordination?
If not, what is the status of all the marriages, baptisms, etc. that he had performed?  Null and void?

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« Reply #159 on: June 07, 2013, 03:42:58 AM »

I do not know what the orthodox teaching on divorce is, I always assumed it would be you should not be allowed to divorce unless one commits adultery or something, but I read today Metropolitan Savas says the orthodox teaching is to grant 4 divorces... was news to me...


I thought a certain patriarch of constaninople was dethroned and replaced by the emperor once because he would not grant one divorce!
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« Reply #160 on: June 07, 2013, 03:58:46 PM »

I do not know what the orthodox teaching on divorce is, I always assumed it would be you should not be allowed to divorce unless one commits adultery or something, but I read today Metropolitan Savas says the orthodox teaching is to grant 4 divorces... was news to me...


I thought a certain patriarch of constaninople was dethroned and replaced by the emperor once because he would not grant one divorce!

NO, the Orthodox are allowed only one divorce. He or she may marry up to three time, e.g. if one spouse dies, and the subsequent spouse divorces.
Second marriages must be evaluated by the priest and sometimes the bishop.  Third marriage evaluated by the Bishop. I believe this is the policy.
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« Reply #161 on: June 07, 2013, 04:03:25 PM »

I do not know what the orthodox teaching on divorce is, I always assumed it would be you should not be allowed to divorce unless one commits adultery or something, but I read today Metropolitan Savas says the orthodox teaching is to grant 4 divorces... was news to me...


I thought a certain patriarch of constaninople was dethroned and replaced by the emperor once because he would not grant one divorce!

Only a Bishop can grant a divorce. The emperor in question was exceeding his qualifications and taking on a spiritual responsibility not vested in him.  I guess if you are powerful enough you think you can do anything...
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