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Author Topic: Vatican re-issues Ratzinger defence of Magisterium on divorce  (Read 6601 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2011, 11:59:27 PM »


We know the problem, not only of the Protestant Communities but also of the Orthodox Churches, which are often presented as a model for the possibility of remarriage. But only the first marriage is sacramental: the Orthodox too recognize that the other marriages are not sacramental, they are reduced and redimensioned marriages and in a penitential situation; in a certain sense, the couple can go to Communion but in the awareness that this is a concession "by economy", as they say, through mercy which, nevertheless, does not remove the fact that their marriage is not a Sacrament. The other point is that in the Eastern Churches for these marriages they have conceded the possibility of divorce too lightly, and that the principle of indissolubility, the true sacramental character of the marriage, is therefore seriously injured
.


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2005/july/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050725_diocesi-aosta_en.html



Several things stand out here....

1. The possibility, more than hinted at by Pope Benedict, that new ways of thinking may provide solutions to enable divorced and remarried Catholics to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church and receive the eucharist. 

2. The very regrettable error that the Orthodox regard their second marriages as non-sacramental.  He is wrong.

3. The Orthodox allowance of divorce seriously injures the sacramental nature of marriage.  Again, the Pope is in error.

     Taken altogether the Orthodox approach to marriage and divorce sees a very very low rate of divorce.  By way of contrast the Catholic Church sees a 35% annual termination of marriages through the annulment process.  One would expect, when the civil divorces without ecclesiastical annulment are taken into account, that more than 50% of Catholic marriages are terminated.

Shall we look for the data that says that both Catholic and Orthodox divorce rates in the United States match the national divorce rate and that there are not a disproportionate number of Catholics divorced as compared to Orthodox couples who are divorced?   I know it's out there.  Are you willing to go look for it?
The first SUNY survey of religion (early 90's) found that the Orthodox had the lowest incidence of divorce of all religious groups (6%) in the US.  (The survey was on self reporting religious affiliation, so, for instance, someone baptized by the Vatican but having since joined the Protestants or embraced Orthodoxy would be included in the latter groups if they identified as such).
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« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2011, 12:45:46 AM »

Much more importantly than the statistical data, let us look at what Pope Benedict has said - that ways may be found around the hitherto watertight prohibition on communing divorced and remarried Catholics.  That's a watershed statement.

Has there been any follow up?

That has always been pretty much left to the bishops and pastors in any given see. Some are much more strict than others. 

The reality of that statement, seemingly so bland, actually tears at the religious lives of divorced/remarried Catholics.

In the 1950s my parents divorced and my Catholic father married again, a Catholic woman, but of course in a civil wedding only.

Both had been devout Catholics. he was a Sunday Mass-goer, she would go many weekday mornings.   But come their marriage and their Church scorned them.  Both were denied Communion.  Neither was ever admitted to Confession again.

When they wanted to baptize their children, four of them, the Catholic parishes of this diocese refused under instructions from the Cardinal.  They also refused to enrol the children in Catholic schools.

My stepmother beseeched the Virgin Mary for assistance.  She helped.  Their plight came to the ears of a priest in another diocese.  He secretly baptized the 4 children.

When my mother died, 30 years after the civil wedding of my father and my stepmother, they presented themselves within a month of her death for a Catholic wedding.  It took place.

But the damage is inestimable.  My stepmother is content to go on saying the rosary at home.  The children, now grown up, do not have a kind word for the Catholic Church.

And the irony of this anecdote.  None of it would have happened if they had purchased a house 100 miles up the road in a diocese which would have communed them. Angry Sad
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« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2011, 01:02:06 AM »

Grace and Peace,

I am simply 'shocked' that with the Western Church in the state that it is in, that Patriarch Benedict XVI would cast such a stone.
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« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2011, 01:48:05 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.

M.
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« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2011, 01:51:53 PM »

We are aware that many of your attitudes toward the Catholic Church are very deeply personal.  That does not make you always accurate in your estimations.  I don't say that as a recrimination.  But it is clear to me over the years that you have very particular bones to pick and I am sorry for that.  Truly sorry. 


Much more importantly than the statistical data, let us look at what Pope Benedict has said - that ways may be found around the hitherto watertight prohibition on communing divorced and remarried Catholics.  That's a watershed statement.

Has there been any follow up?

That has always been pretty much left to the bishops and pastors in any given see. Some are much more strict than others. 

The reality of that statement, seemingly so bland, actually tears at the religious lives of divorced/remarried Catholics.

In the 1950s my parents divorced and my Catholic father married again, a Catholic woman, but of course in a civil wedding only.

Both had been devout Catholics. he was a Sunday Mass-goer, she would go many weekday mornings.   But come their marriage and their Church scorned them.  Both were denied Communion.  Neither was ever admitted to Confession again.

When they wanted to baptize their children, four of them, the Catholic parishes of this diocese refused under instructions from the Cardinal.  They also refused to enrol the children in Catholic schools.

My stepmother beseeched the Virgin Mary for assistance.  She helped.  Their plight came to the ears of a priest in another diocese.  He secretly baptized the 4 children.

When my mother died, 30 years after the civil wedding of my father and my stepmother, they presented themselves within a month of her death for a Catholic wedding.  It took place.

But the damage is inestimable.  My stepmother is content to go on saying the rosary at home.  The children, now grown up, do not have a kind word for the Catholic Church.

And the irony of this anecdote.  None of it would have happened if they had purchased a house 100 miles up the road in a diocese which would have communed them. Angry Sad
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« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2011, 02:28:28 PM »

Knowing all too well the effects that divorce can have on all concerned, I share your sentiments here.

I also know, too, that it can sometimes be very difficult to separate our emotions about that from events later in life, especially as they are connected to institutions such as the Church, that may have played a role.

The Church and her ministers should be there to help any and all of us who turn to her for help to heal the wounds created by divorce insofar as they relate to our lives in Christ.  And, for that matter, what doesn't in some way or another relate to our lives in Christ?

May Christ heal the wounds of all who have suffered divorce, either as children of divorcing parents  or as the divorcing parents themselves!  If we let Him....

We are aware that many of your attitudes toward the Catholic Church are very deeply personal.  That does not make you always accurate in your estimations.  I don't say that as a recrimination.  But it is clear to me over the years that you have very particular bones to pick and I am sorry for that.  Truly sorry.  


Much more importantly than the statistical data, let us look at what Pope Benedict has said - that ways may be found around the hitherto watertight prohibition on communing divorced and remarried Catholics.  That's a watershed statement.

Has there been any follow up?

That has always been pretty much left to the bishops and pastors in any given see. Some are much more strict than others.  

The reality of that statement, seemingly so bland, actually tears at the religious lives of divorced/remarried Catholics.

In the 1950s my parents divorced and my Catholic father married again, a Catholic woman, but of course in a civil wedding only.

Both had been devout Catholics. he was a Sunday Mass-goer, she would go many weekday mornings.   But come their marriage and their Church scorned them.  Both were denied Communion.  Neither was ever admitted to Confession again.

When they wanted to baptize their children, four of them, the Catholic parishes of this diocese refused under instructions from the Cardinal.  They also refused to enrol the children in Catholic schools.

My stepmother beseeched the Virgin Mary for assistance.  She helped.  Their plight came to the ears of a priest in another diocese.  He secretly baptized the 4 children.

When my mother died, 30 years after the civil wedding of my father and my stepmother, they presented themselves within a month of her death for a Catholic wedding.  It took place.

But the damage is inestimable.  My stepmother is content to go on saying the rosary at home.  The children, now grown up, do not have a kind word for the Catholic Church.

And the irony of this anecdote.  None of it would have happened if they had purchased a house 100 miles up the road in a diocese which would have communed them. Angry Sad
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 02:31:56 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2011, 03:55:21 PM »

Quote from: J Michael
The Church and her ministers should be there to help any and all of us who turn to her for help to heal the wounds created by divorce insofar as they relate to our lives in Christ.  And, for that matter, what doesn't in some way or another relate to our lives in Christ?

May Christ heal the wounds of all who have suffered divorce, either as children of divorcing parents  or as the divorcing parents themselves!  If we let Him....

Amen.
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« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2011, 03:57:54 PM »

We are aware that many of your attitudes toward the Catholic Church are very deeply personal.  That does not make you always accurate in your estimations.  I don't say that as a recrimination.  But it is clear to me over the years that you have very particular bones to pick and I am sorry for that.  Truly sorry. 

Please don't be silly.  You have no idea at all of the ins and outs.  

Do you really think that a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents?


Much more importantly than the statistical data, let us look at what Pope Benedict has said - that ways may be found around the hitherto watertight prohibition on communing divorced and remarried Catholics.  That's a watershed statement.

Has there been any follow up?

That has always been pretty much left to the bishops and pastors in any given see. Some are much more strict than others. 

The reality of that statement, seemingly so bland, actually tears at the religious lives of divorced/remarried Catholics.

In the 1950s my parents divorced and my Catholic father married again, a Catholic woman, but of course in a civil wedding only.

Both had been devout Catholics. he was a Sunday Mass-goer, she would go many weekday mornings.   But come their marriage and their Church scorned them.  Both were denied Communion.  Neither was ever admitted to Confession again.

When they wanted to baptize their children, four of them, the Catholic parishes of this diocese refused under instructions from the Cardinal.  They also refused to enrol the children in Catholic schools.

My stepmother beseeched the Virgin Mary for assistance.  She helped.  Their plight came to the ears of a priest in another diocese.  He secretly baptized the 4 children.

When my mother died, 30 years after the civil wedding of my father and my stepmother, they presented themselves within a month of her death for a Catholic wedding.  It took place.

But the damage is inestimable.  My stepmother is content to go on saying the rosary at home.  The children, now grown up, do not have a kind word for the Catholic Church.

And the irony of this anecdote.  None of it would have happened if they had purchased a house 100 miles up the road in a diocese which would have communed them. Angry Sad
[/quote]
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« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2011, 04:20:18 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.
No, not always.
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« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2011, 04:30:32 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.
No, not always.

Best I can say to that is that a one-sided marriage is no marriage in any event.
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« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2011, 04:31:14 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

There's quite a difference between "intelligent attitudes" and biased (for lack of a better word at the moment) attitudes.  

We are aware that many of your attitudes toward the Catholic Church are very deeply personal.  That does not make you always accurate in your estimations.  I don't say that as a recrimination.  But it is clear to me over the years that you have very particular bones to pick and I am sorry for that.  Truly sorry. 

Please don't be silly.  You have no idea at all of the ins and outs.  

Do you really think that a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents?


Much more importantly than the statistical data, let us look at what Pope Benedict has said - that ways may be found around the hitherto watertight prohibition on communing divorced and remarried Catholics.  That's a watershed statement.

Has there been any follow up?

That has always been pretty much left to the bishops and pastors in any given see. Some are much more strict than others. 

The reality of that statement, seemingly so bland, actually tears at the religious lives of divorced/remarried Catholics.

In the 1950s my parents divorced and my Catholic father married again, a Catholic woman, but of course in a civil wedding only.

Both had been devout Catholics. he was a Sunday Mass-goer, she would go many weekday mornings.   But come their marriage and their Church scorned them.  Both were denied Communion.  Neither was ever admitted to Confession again.

When they wanted to baptize their children, four of them, the Catholic parishes of this diocese refused under instructions from the Cardinal.  They also refused to enrol the children in Catholic schools.

My stepmother beseeched the Virgin Mary for assistance.  She helped.  Their plight came to the ears of a priest in another diocese.  He secretly baptized the 4 children.

When my mother died, 30 years after the civil wedding of my father and my stepmother, they presented themselves within a month of her death for a Catholic wedding.  It took place.

But the damage is inestimable.  My stepmother is content to go on saying the rosary at home.  The children, now grown up, do not have a kind word for the Catholic Church.

And the irony of this anecdote.  None of it would have happened if they had purchased a house 100 miles up the road in a diocese which would have communed them. Angry Sad
[/quote]
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2011, 04:40:48 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.
No, not always.

Yeah...*always*.  Especially if 2 people or more are involved.  Now, sometimes one "side" chooses not to recognize the existence of the other, but that doesn't mean the other side does not, in reality, exist.
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« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2011, 05:01:44 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes. 

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2011, 05:10:45 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes. 

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)? 
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2011, 06:02:15 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocriritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-avis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:08:59 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #105 on: December 07, 2011, 06:30:38 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocriritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-avis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.

I'm delighted that you have no unresolved anger or resentment towards the Catholic Church.  That's wonderful!

As for me...well...we weren't talking about me.  I will say though that I love the Orthodox Church, have no childhood history with it at all, and consider it to be, *along with the Catholic Church*, part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  The details of how I arrived at that position are complicated and personal,  and I will not discuss it here any more than I already have.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #106 on: December 07, 2011, 07:42:36 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh
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« Reply #107 on: December 08, 2011, 12:06:46 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.
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« Reply #108 on: December 08, 2011, 04:24:37 PM »


These are civil divorces.

A marriage celebrant must comply with Government requirements to notify the Registrar of Births Deaths and Marriages of every wedding he or she performs.

The Registrar of Births Deaths and Marriages informs a marriage celebrant whenever a marriage he has performed is ended by a civil divorce.
Quote


As a general aside, at the local Greek parish, two of the last four priests' marriages ended in divorce. Obviously, Holy Orders is an impediment to marriage, but can a priest get an ecclesiastical divorce even though he may not remarry?

I do not know.



Father,

Wow, I must say that I am quite impressed. Thanks be to God that the vast majority of those whom you have been privileged to join together in Christ have not gone asunder!
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« Reply #109 on: December 08, 2011, 05:08:04 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes. 

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.
How is this love for the Catholic Church expressed? Is there anything about the Catholic Church that you think is positive, because I can't recall you identifying anything like this.
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« Reply #110 on: December 08, 2011, 05:46:48 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !
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« Reply #111 on: December 08, 2011, 05:51:07 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an inteliigent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes. 

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.
How is this love for the Catholic Church expressed? Is there anything about the Catholic Church that you think is positive, because I can't recall you identifying anything like this.

Among many things, the love and veneration of the Mother of God.

Btw, Merton thought that it would be through her that the two Churches will find a way to unity.
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J Michael
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« Reply #112 on: December 08, 2011, 05:55:09 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !

But there you go, offering advice!  Grin

Who are these "Wise" you speak of, anyway?  From what I've been able to discern, they're few and far between (especially around here!), and I surely ain't one of 'em.

Wrong assumptions?  Wrong conclusions??  Wrong advice???  On an internet discussion board???  Surely you jest! Wink Wink

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #113 on: December 08, 2011, 05:59:03 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.
No, not always.

Yeah...*always*.  Especially if 2 people or more are involved.  Now, sometimes one "side" chooses not to recognize the existence of the other, but that doesn't mean the other side does not, in reality, exist.
No, not always. That is what no fault divorce is all about:one side unilaterally ending the marraige, often (most often?) the side whose fault causes the divorce.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #114 on: December 08, 2011, 06:03:58 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.
No, not always.

Yeah...*always*.  Especially if 2 people or more are involved.  Now, sometimes one "side" chooses not to recognize the existence of the other, but that doesn't mean the other side does not, in reality, exist.
No, not always. That is what no fault divorce is all about:one side unilaterally ending the marraige, often (most often?) the side whose fault causes the divorce.

The only relationship that I can think of where only one side is "at fault" for something going wrong is the one one has with oneself.  Otherwise, except in a goofy legal sense (like the misnamed "no-fault" divorce you mention), it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #115 on: December 08, 2011, 06:24:44 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.
No, not always.

Yeah...*always*.  Especially if 2 people or more are involved.  Now, sometimes one "side" chooses not to recognize the existence of the other, but that doesn't mean the other side does not, in reality, exist.
No, not always. That is what no fault divorce is all about:one side unilaterally ending the marraige, often (most often?) the side whose fault causes the divorce.

The only relationship that I can think of where only one side is "at fault" for something going wrong is the one one has with oneself.  Otherwise, except in a goofy legal sense (like the misnamed "no-fault" divorce you mention), it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
you speak it seems, again, about things you do not know or understand.  It takes two to make a marriage. It takes only one to make a divorce.

Let's just take one example:Ronald Reagan and Jane Wyman.  She had at least one husband before him, and two after him, but adding up the total time she was married to other men (including the two marriages to the same man) does not equal the near decade she was married to Ronald.  Ronald later married Nancy, for over 52 years until his death.  How much fault do you think Ronald had to his divorce?

How much fault did Katherine have for her divorce from Henry VIII?

"No fault" is (usually) misnamed, but "divorce on demand" seems to be too spot on for the powers that be (such that judges REFUSE to hear fault, and some states the statutes bar consideration of fault).
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #116 on: December 08, 2011, 06:27:51 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !

But there you go, offering advice!  Grin

Who are these "Wise" you speak of, anyway?  From what I've been able to discern, they're few and far between (especially around here!), and I surely ain't one of 'em.

Wrong assumptions?  Wrong conclusions??  Wrong advice???  On an internet discussion board???  Surely you jest! Wink Wink



Well, it seemed a jest to me that following one short post on my father's life and difficulty with the Catholic Church, several Catholics were willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions about my religious psyche!   laugh
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 06:38:31 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
J Michael
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« Reply #117 on: December 08, 2011, 06:34:01 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.
No, not always.

Yeah...*always*.  Especially if 2 people or more are involved.  Now, sometimes one "side" chooses not to recognize the existence of the other, but that doesn't mean the other side does not, in reality, exist.
No, not always. That is what no fault divorce is all about:one side unilaterally ending the marraige, often (most often?) the side whose fault causes the divorce.

The only relationship that I can think of where only one side is "at fault" for something going wrong is the one one has with oneself.  Otherwise, except in a goofy legal sense (like the misnamed "no-fault" divorce you mention), it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
you speak it seems, again, about things you do not know or understand.  It takes two to make a marriage. It takes only one to make a divorce.

Let's just take one example:Ronald Reagan and Jane Wyman.  She had at least one husband before him, and two after him, but adding up the total time she was married to other men (including the two marriages to the same man) does not equal the near decade she was married to Ronald.  Ronald later married Nancy, for over 52 years until his death.  How much fault do you think Ronald had to his divorce?

How much fault did Katherine have for her divorce from Henry VIII?

"No fault" is (usually) misnamed, but "divorce on demand" seems to be too spot on for the powers that be (such that judges REFUSE to hear fault, and some states the statutes bar consideration of fault).

Ohh, Sir Knight, I am mightily humbled at the feet of a great master intellect, in comparison to which, I know nothing.  Nothing, I tell you.  Yes, of course, you are right, as you always are and always must be, Sir Knight.

Okay, I'll stop with the sarcasm, but I think you might get my point. 

What I am ***trying*** to say is that in **any** relationship between 2 people, inane legalities aside, both are responsible to greater or lesser degree for anything that happens within that relationship.  If you cannot see that, then we have nothing to discuss.  We probably have nothing to discuss, anyway.  Time for me to sign off and find my peace again  Wink.
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
ialmisry
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« Reply #118 on: December 08, 2011, 08:32:13 PM »

I had thought a divorced person could be readmitted to Communion if he or she had also received Confession. If I'm wrong, sorry.  Undecided

A divorced person reconciles with the Church by confessing any part that they might have played in the falling apart of the marriage.  No-fault divorce is a civil matter, not a moral one... Smiley  And there are always two sides.
No, not always.

Yeah...*always*.  Especially if 2 people or more are involved.  Now, sometimes one "side" chooses not to recognize the existence of the other, but that doesn't mean the other side does not, in reality, exist.
No, not always. That is what no fault divorce is all about:one side unilaterally ending the marraige, often (most often?) the side whose fault causes the divorce.

The only relationship that I can think of where only one side is "at fault" for something going wrong is the one one has with oneself.  Otherwise, except in a goofy legal sense (like the misnamed "no-fault" divorce you mention), it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
you speak it seems, again, about things you do not know or understand.  It takes two to make a marriage. It takes only one to make a divorce.

Let's just take one example:Ronald Reagan and Jane Wyman.  She had at least one husband before him, and two after him, but adding up the total time she was married to other men (including the two marriages to the same man) does not equal the near decade she was married to Ronald.  Ronald later married Nancy, for over 52 years until his death.  How much fault do you think Ronald had to his divorce?

How much fault did Katherine have for her divorce from Henry VIII?

"No fault" is (usually) misnamed, but "divorce on demand" seems to be too spot on for the powers that be (such that judges REFUSE to hear fault, and some states the statutes bar consideration of fault).

Ohh, Sir Knight, I am mightily humbled at the feet of a great master intellect, in comparison to which, I know nothing.  Nothing, I tell you.  Yes, of course, you are right, as you always are and always must be, Sir Knight.

Okay, I'll stop with the sarcasm, but I think you might get my point. 

What I am ***trying*** to say is that in **any** relationship between 2 people, inane legalities aside, both are responsible to greater or lesser degree for anything that happens within that relationship.  If you cannot see that, then we have nothing to discuss.  We probably have nothing to discuss, anyway.  Time for me to sign off and find my peace again  Wink.
Henry could have used you.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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*****************
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« Reply #119 on: December 08, 2011, 08:32:53 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !

But there you go, offering advice!  Grin

Who are these "Wise" you speak of, anyway?  From what I've been able to discern, they're few and far between (especially around here!), and I surely ain't one of 'em.

Wrong assumptions?  Wrong conclusions??  Wrong advice???  On an internet discussion board???  Surely you jest! Wink Wink



Well, it seemed a jest to me that following one short post on my father's life and difficulty with the Catholic Church, several Catholics were willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions about my religious psyche!   laugh
because it soothes theirs.
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« Reply #120 on: December 09, 2011, 02:09:53 AM »

And there are always two sides.
I don't think so. I think that there can be situations in which one person is at fault.
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« Reply #121 on: December 09, 2011, 02:15:28 AM »

....it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
It may take two to tango, but it is possible for one spouse to destroy a marriage. 
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« Reply #122 on: December 09, 2011, 11:02:42 AM »

....it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
It may take two to tango, but it is possible for one spouse to destroy a marriage. 


I give up.  I don't agree, but I give up.  Time to move on.  As it happens, contrary to what others may say or think, I do know very well of what I speak--unfortunately I'm just not communicating it effectively here, and enough is enough.  Ego redono.  satis.
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« Reply #123 on: December 09, 2011, 02:02:48 PM »

....it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
It may take two to tango, but it is possible for one spouse to destroy a marriage. 


I give up.  I don't agree, but I give up.  Time to move on.  As it happens, contrary to what others may say or think, I do know very well of what I speak--unfortunately I'm just not communicating it effectively here, and enough is enough.  Ego redono.  satis.

Actually, it can take 1 spouse to destroy the marriage. I know my wife at the time told my sister-in-law she was leaving me because I became a "religious @**hole" because I started taking my spiritual life more serious.

PP
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« Reply #124 on: December 09, 2011, 03:25:20 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !

But there you go, offering advice!  Grin

Who are these "Wise" you speak of, anyway?  From what I've been able to discern, they're few and far between (especially around here!), and I surely ain't one of 'em.

Wrong assumptions?  Wrong conclusions??  Wrong advice???  On an internet discussion board???  Surely you jest! Wink Wink



Well, it seemed a jest to me that following one short post on my father's life and difficulty with the Catholic Church, several Catholics were willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions about my religious psyche!   laugh
The conclusions are not unwarrented. You spend so much time taking shots at the Catholic Church, that it would be difficult for anyone not to conclude that you had some negative history with the Church.
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« Reply #125 on: December 09, 2011, 03:36:36 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !

But there you go, offering advice!  Grin

Who are these "Wise" you speak of, anyway?  From what I've been able to discern, they're few and far between (especially around here!), and I surely ain't one of 'em.

Wrong assumptions?  Wrong conclusions??  Wrong advice???  On an internet discussion board???  Surely you jest! Wink Wink



Well, it seemed a jest to me that following one short post on my father's life and difficulty with the Catholic Church, several Catholics were willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions about my religious psyche!   laugh
The conclusions are not unwarrented. You spend so much time taking shots at the Catholic Church, that it would be difficult for anyone not to conclude that you had some negative history with the Church.
because of COURSE the Vatican has NO negative history, so it has to be a personal thing.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #126 on: December 09, 2011, 03:38:27 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !

But there you go, offering advice!  Grin

Who are these "Wise" you speak of, anyway?  From what I've been able to discern, they're few and far between (especially around here!), and I surely ain't one of 'em.

Wrong assumptions?  Wrong conclusions??  Wrong advice???  On an internet discussion board???  Surely you jest! Wink Wink



Well, it seemed a jest to me that following one short post on my father's life and difficulty with the Catholic Church, several Catholics were willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions about my religious psyche!   laugh
The conclusions are not unwarrented. You spend so much time taking shots at the Catholic Church, that it would be difficult for anyone not to conclude that you had some negative history with the Church.
because of COURSE the Vatican has NO negative history, so it has to be a personal thing.
Perish the thought

PP
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« Reply #127 on: December 09, 2011, 04:45:47 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !

But there you go, offering advice!  Grin

Who are these "Wise" you speak of, anyway?  From what I've been able to discern, they're few and far between (especially around here!), and I surely ain't one of 'em.

Wrong assumptions?  Wrong conclusions??  Wrong advice???  On an internet discussion board???  Surely you jest! Wink Wink



Well, it seemed a jest to me that following one short post on my father's life and difficulty with the Catholic Church, several Catholics were willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions about my religious psyche!   laugh
The conclusions are not unwarrented. You spend so much time taking shots at the Catholic Church, that it would be difficult for anyone not to conclude that you had some negative history with the Church.
because of COURSE the Vatican has NO negative history, so it has to be a personal thing.
You are always so pleasant honey bunny. kiss kiss
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« Reply #128 on: December 09, 2011, 05:31:59 PM »

You're absolutely right, Mary doesn't have any idea at all of the ins and outs!  How could she?  Nor, do I think, does she pretend to.  But....she also didn't say that "a man cannot formulate an intelligent attitudes towards divorce in the Catholic Church because there has been a difficult marital situation with one of his parents".  In fact, she said something entirely different.

Can you, with total and unreserved honesty and candor, tell us that your experiences did not, in any way at all, color your attitudes towards the Catholic Church?

Yes.  

Without going into the religious history of my youth and young manhood I can say Yes! very affirmatively.

No, I withdraw that..... the truth is that the experiences of my youth and young manhood gave me an enormous love of the Catholic Church.

*Totally* devoid of any negativity, unresolved anger or resentment towards the Church (Catholic Church)?  


This interrogation is getting quite silly!  I have no anger, resolved or unresolved, towards the Catholic Church.  I have no resentment.

Negativity?   I find the outworking of the Catholic position on divorce/remarriage and contraception to be hypocritical and, for many people, sees your Church acting as a vehicle of damnation instead of a vehicle of salvation.

I believe that the postion of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis Orthodoxy is as outlined by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London. See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

How about you?  Any negativity about the Orthodox claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?  Any negativity about our position on divorce or contraception?  Deaconesses?  Rejection of papal infallibility?

No, not silly, Father.  Just trying to understand if and how your attitudes towards the Catholic Church may have been influenced, either positively or negatively, by the youthful experiences you chose to share with us here.
.

They had no personal impact.  I was not aware of them until I was about 45 and had been Orthodox for 27 years already.

I wish you and Mary would go and analyse someone for whom you know the facts.   laugh

Just goin' on the facts provided by your own good self  laugh.  Apologies if I got it wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something--nor the last, I'm afraid.

A word to the Wise...I have always declined to offer Internet counselling because I know how it is almost impossible to gain a complete and accurate picture via e-mail messages.  Since one never has complete and accurate information (such as is normally easily gained by face to face discussion) the danger of making wrong assumptions, drawing wrong conclusions and offering wrong advice is quite high.  Verbum Ambrosii !

But there you go, offering advice!  Grin

Who are these "Wise" you speak of, anyway?  From what I've been able to discern, they're few and far between (especially around here!), and I surely ain't one of 'em.

Wrong assumptions?  Wrong conclusions??  Wrong advice???  On an internet discussion board???  Surely you jest! Wink Wink



Well, it seemed a jest to me that following one short post on my father's life and difficulty with the Catholic Church, several Catholics were willing to jump to unwarranted conclusions about my religious psyche!   laugh
The conclusions are not unwarrented. You spend so much time taking shots at the Catholic Church, that it would be difficult for anyone not to conclude that you had some negative history with the Church.


Amusing....people are still playing amateur psychologist with me!  laugh  I have no negative history with the Catholic Church.  In fact I am enormously grateful for its influence in my life and for the pre-Vatican II religious education it gave me.   

If I have one personal criticism  ---- as my brother and I watched a TV clip of a man who had been abused at school by his Catholic priests (yes, he was abused by several) my brother lamented:  'Why were we passed over? I wish we had been abused!'   The Courts had awarded the man enough money to buy a luxurious house and several hundred thousand left over.   
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« Reply #129 on: December 09, 2011, 05:35:04 PM »

Let's be honest. One can believe that somebody or some organization is wrong, write absolutely vicious polemics about it, but have no personal problems with the person or organization which is believed to be in error. Certainly, I doubt Athanasius had personal issues with Arius (other than the fact that he was saying that our Lord is created, of course!), or that St. Maximus the Confessor had any personal animosity towards the non-Chalcedonians.
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« Reply #130 on: December 10, 2011, 12:27:23 AM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.
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« Reply #131 on: December 10, 2011, 01:25:44 AM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.
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« Reply #132 on: December 10, 2011, 02:09:06 AM »

Let’s not overdo the negative stress...  For example, Mary’s Church, Ruthenian Catholic, has just completed the formation period of its three founding nuns of Christ the Bridegroom Monastery.  Where were these Catholic nuns sent for their time of formation?  – to the Orthodox Monastery of the Myrrh-bearers, Ortega, New York.

Mother Theodora was A Basilian nun at Mt. St. Macrina before founding Christ the Bridegroom, the others received their formation her.

"The cover group shot [on the Ortega Orthodox monastery calendar] shows our community with the three sisters of the newly begun Christ the Bridegroom Community, the Roman Catholic Reuthenian Eparchy of Parma, who spent three joyful months with us learning the ways of Orthodox monasticism."


http://www.holymyrrhbearers.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=174

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« Reply #133 on: December 10, 2011, 02:11:43 AM »

....it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
It may take two to tango, but it is possible for one spouse to destroy a marriage. 


I give up.  I don't agree, but I give up.  Time to move on.  As it happens, contrary to what others may say or think, I do know very well of what I speak--unfortunately I'm just not communicating it effectively here, and enough is enough.  Ego redono.  satis.

Actually, it can take 1 spouse to destroy the marriage. I know my wife at the time told my sister-in-law she was leaving me because I became a "religious @**hole" because I started taking my spiritual life more serious.

PP

This is not a blame game.  The whole question arose because of the idea that BOTH spouses or EITHER spouse should confess after a divorce.

The idea of blamelessness in hardly a question of sinlessness: PARTICULARLY with a Church that begs forgiveness for sins committed in knowledge and in ignorance...right?

So a good confession harms no one and fixes no blame except that which the sinner is willing to take upon themselves and for which they ask and receive forgiveness.

These latest responses to that idea are embarrassing: or should be.
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« Reply #134 on: December 10, 2011, 02:25:33 AM »

....it *always* takes two to tango, as it were!  And if this is news to you, I can't help but wonder which planet you've been living on  Wink.
It may take two to tango, but it is possible for one spouse to destroy a marriage.  


I give up.  I don't agree, but I give up.  Time to move on.  As it happens, contrary to what others may say or think, I do know very well of what I speak--unfortunately I'm just not communicating it effectively here, and enough is enough.  Ego redono.  satis.

Actually, it can take 1 spouse to destroy the marriage. I know my wife at the time told my sister-in-law she was leaving me because I became a "religious @**hole" because I started taking my spiritual life more serious.

PP

This is not a blame game.  The whole question arose because of the idea that BOTH spouses or EITHER spouse should confess after a divorce.

The idea of blamelessness in hardly a question of sinlessness: PARTICULARLY with a Church that begs forgiveness for sins committed in knowledge and in ignorance...right?

So a good confession harms no one and fixes no blame except that which the sinner is willing to take upon themselves and for which they ask and receive forgiveness.

These latest responses to that idea are embarrassing: or should be.

A priest would not proceed with a confession and give absolution to a person who spoke of her 'blamefulness' but had no actual sins to confess. If he is a good priest he should try to help her discern the roots of her feeling of blamefulness and ascertain if there has been any sin.

I have to confess that your message puzzles me.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 02:26:01 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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