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Author Topic: The Trinity Statement: Some Evangelicals re-defining the Trinity?  (Read 2606 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2011, 04:17:33 PM »

I've heard alot of this modalistic talk in churches here. The problem stems from there being no foundation for doctrine, but thats what this whole shin-dig is about in the firstplace.......

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« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2011, 06:47:57 PM »

I can't really see what, if anything, is all that heretical in these theologians' definition of the Trinity. I just don't understand why they think they need to rewrite tradition. Haven't we had a functional dogma of the Trinity since A.D. 325? Huh

The Nicene Creed says nothing one way or the other about subordination; the closest thing the west has to a definition against it is found in the Athanasian Creed, in which say in one place: "And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal." but then says further along that Jesus is "equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood." I gather that some Catholic writers want to cast the Eastern churches as subordinating the other Persons to the Father.

I looked at some of Giles's book, and it appears to be the sort of thing where you need to read quite a bit of to get where he is going. Giles is a conservative Anglican, so I would guess he takes the western approach above.

There is a tendency towards restorationism in evangelical thought, so they tend to fail to pay attention to the history of these arguments.
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« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2011, 07:33:38 PM »

Question: leaving aside the questionable language employed in the article, based on their statement, do you think these people would agree that the Father is the only divine person who is neither begotten nor proceeds from another?

Second question: if that alone [the unbegottenness of the Father] is admitted, does it not immediately follow that there is subordination in God in some sense?

Third question: if this type of subordination is admitted, does Arianism or Arianism-lite necessarily follow, as these people seem to be intimating?
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« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2011, 07:34:03 PM »

There is a tendency towards restorationism in evangelical thought, so they tend to fail to pay attention to the history of these arguments.

This seems to be the cause of so many problems.
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2011, 12:56:39 AM »

How did the Church (here I mean in terms of its human beginnings in the Garden, not from the moment of the creation of the noetic realm) come to know God as explicitly Trinitarian?

In what order?

The Holy Spirit reveals the Word (1 Corinthians 12:3, Matthew 16:17) who exegetes the Father (John 1:18, Colossians 1:15).

So the Holy Spirit is the First Person of the Trinity phenomenologically.






Spoiled it.  Grin
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 01:01:11 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2011, 02:04:46 AM »

Here's some Sabellianism in "mainstream protestantism" for you.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/evangelicals-take-stand-on-trinity-63436/

What was that about most Christians being able to recite the creed and mean it?

Shamelessly stolen from Father Anastasios.

Had no real trouble with the references to the statement itself, and it's meaning, at the onset. However, as I read and saw the agenda and confusion of equality and role I realized, at least for the individual being quoted, this was errant at best and disingenuous at worst. God is equal in persons, but has a functional hierarchy all the same. The Son is subject to the Father, but he is equally deity at the same time.

It's a shame, what could have been a tool for sound teaching and unity has been "agendized" (to coin a term) for secular notions of "equality" instead of biblical ones.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 02:05:52 AM by Cleopas » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2011, 05:06:17 AM »

Here's some Sabellianism in "mainstream protestantism" for you.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/evangelicals-take-stand-on-trinity-63436/

What was that about most Christians being able to recite the creed and mean it?

Shamelessly stolen from Father Anastasios.

Had no real trouble with the references to the statement itself, and it's meaning, at the onset. However, as I read and saw the agenda and confusion of equality and role I realized, at least for the individual being quoted, this was errant at best and disingenuous at worst. God is equal in persons, but has a functional hierarchy all the same. The Son is subject to the Father, but he is equally deity at the same time.

It's a shame, what could have been a tool for sound teaching and unity has been "agendized" (to coin a term) for secular notions of "equality" instead of biblical ones.
I agree.
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« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2011, 05:10:48 AM »

How did the Church (here I mean in terms of its human beginnings in the Garden, not from the moment of the creation of the noetic realm) come to know God as explicitly Trinitarian?

In what order?

The Holy Spirit reveals the Word (1 Corinthians 12:3, Matthew 16:17) who exegetes the Father (John 1:18, Colossians 1:15).

So the Holy Spirit is the First Person of the Trinity phenomenologically.






Spoiled it.  Grin
No, first they knew Him as the Creator who brought them out of Egypt and was over all other gods and would send a Messiah. Then they knew Christ who calls God His Father, then they knew the Comforter Jesus sent them when He went to His Father.

True, the Spirit is the first Person we interact with, but He does not testify of Himself but only what He hears.
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akimori makoto
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« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2011, 05:16:10 AM »

Here's some Sabellianism in "mainstream protestantism" for you.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/evangelicals-take-stand-on-trinity-63436/

What was that about most Christians being able to recite the creed and mean it?

Shamelessly stolen from Father Anastasios.

Had no real trouble with the references to the statement itself, and it's meaning, at the onset. However, as I read and saw the agenda and confusion of equality and role I realized, at least for the individual being quoted, this was errant at best and disingenuous at worst. God is equal in persons, but has a functional hierarchy all the same. The Son is subject to the Father, but he is equally deity at the same time.

It's a shame, what could have been a tool for sound teaching and unity has been "agendized" (to coin a term) for secular notions of "equality" instead of biblical ones.

I agree, Cleopas. The statement itself isn't so bad, but the content of the article is quite perturbing.
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« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2011, 05:04:43 PM »

How did the Church (here I mean in terms of its human beginnings in the Garden, not from the moment of the creation of the noetic realm) come to know God as explicitly Trinitarian?

In what order?

The Holy Spirit reveals the Word (1 Corinthians 12:3, Matthew 16:17) who exegetes the Father (John 1:18, Colossians 1:15).

So the Holy Spirit is the First Person of the Trinity phenomenologically.






Spoiled it.  Grin
No, first they knew Him as the Creator who brought them out of Egypt and was over all other gods and would send a Messiah. Then they knew Christ who calls God His Father, then they knew the Comforter Jesus sent them when He went to His Father.

True, the Spirit is the first Person we interact with, but He does not testify of Himself but only what He hears.
Volnutt, you gotta get a sense of trollcasmony.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 05:05:07 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
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« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2011, 10:37:30 PM »

How did the Church (here I mean in terms of its human beginnings in the Garden, not from the moment of the creation of the noetic realm) come to know God as explicitly Trinitarian?

In what order?

The Holy Spirit reveals the Word (1 Corinthians 12:3, Matthew 16:17) who exegetes the Father (John 1:18, Colossians 1:15).

So the Holy Spirit is the First Person of the Trinity phenomenologically.






Spoiled it.  Grin
No, first they knew Him as the Creator who brought them out of Egypt and was over all other gods and would send a Messiah. Then they knew Christ who calls God His Father, then they knew the Comforter Jesus sent them when He went to His Father.

True, the Spirit is the first Person we interact with, but He does not testify of Himself but only what He hears.
Volnutt, you gotta get a sense of trollcasmony.
Yeah, it's always been hit or miss with me, even in person if you can imagine that lol. Maybe I'm lightly autistic...
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biro
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« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2011, 11:08:18 PM »

I know what a troll is, but what is a casmony?

 Huh
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