How do you deal with a 3.5yr old becoming more and more rebelious?

[yeshuaisiam]

Months later, I still say "Spank them".   Spare the rod, spoil the child.

Like it or not its from the scriptures and WORKS.

Again I have 5 children.  We do get compliments (spoken unboastfully) from people on their behavior.

[JamesR]

^^

He is correct, my parents spanked me all the time and I came out...well, the way I am.

[Ansgar]

I still won't do it. I was never spanked and I came out fine too.

[Kerdy]

It's easy to control them when they are that small.  When they are ten and act like a three year old is where the problems really become heavy.

[JamesRottnek]

Months later, I still say "Spank them".   Spare the rod, spoil the child.

Like it or not its from the scriptures and WORKS.

This is why I've always promoted the execution of rebellious children, as the Lord ordained.

[Kerdy]

Months later, I still say "Spank them".   Spare the rod, spoil the child.

Like it or not its from the scriptures and WORKS.

Again I have 5 children.  We do get compliments (spoken unboastfully) from people on their behavior.

Very true.  Sadly, in today’s lack of direction, lack of discipline, everyone wins, hyper-sensitive, everything you say or do offends someone, corporal punishment is a crime, kids know more than adults, interpret the scriptures anyway you want, over the top reactionary, debate intellectually by using personal attacks and alter the focus of the debate, right and wrong/ truth and lie are more grey area than black and white, ultra-entitlement mentality, godless world we live in, which has somehow blinded most Christians to its existence, you cant spank your kids anymore.

[Ansgar]

Months later, I still say "Spank them".   Spare the rod, spoil the child.

Like it or not its from the scriptures and WORKS.

Again I have 5 children.  We do get compliments (spoken unboastfully) from people on their behavior.

Very true.  Sadly, in today’s lack of direction, lack of discipline, everyone wins, hyper-sensitive, everything you say or do offends someone, corporal punishment is a crime, kids know more than adults, interpret the scriptures anyway you want, over the top reactionary, debate intellectually by using personal attacks and alter the focus of the debate, right and wrong/ truth and lie are more grey area than black and white, ultra-entitlement mentality, godless world we live in, which has somehow blinded most Christians to its existence, you cant spank your kids anymore.

You almost make it sound like blasphemy.

[Quinault]

I have 5 kids as well. I primarily use other methods of discipline. I get compliments on how well behaved my 3, 5, 7, and 11 year olds are all the time (I get compliments on how well behaved our 8 month old is too, but I don't think that counts). As I said earlier in the thread; you can't use any method of discipline without dealing with the reason for misbehavior. My goal actually isn't merely good behavior. My goal is raising kids that are aware of the reasons and reasoning behind behavior. Good behavior is a nice side effect though.

[yeshuaisiam]

I have 5 kids as well. I primarily use other methods of discipline. I get compliments on how well behaved my 3, 5, 7, and 11 year olds are all the time (I get compliments on how well behaved our 8 month old is too, but I don't think that counts). As I said earlier in the thread; you can't use any method of discipline without dealing with the reason for misbehavior. My goal actually isn't merely good behavior. My goal is raising kids that are aware of the reasons and reasoning behind behavior. Good behavior is a nice side effect though.

In my wife's church, we have a "medium family" of 5 children.   There is a family with 13 children, one with 10, several with 9.  (some adopted).   Lot's of 7, 6's and 5's.   The church places a pretty good importance on spanking in willful defiance & disobedience.   Needless to say, this bunch of children are some of the most kind, soft spoken, respectful and obedient children I've ever seen.

That said, OUR SCRIPTURES encourage spanking as well.

[laconicstudent]

I have 5 kids as well. I primarily use other methods of discipline. I get compliments on how well behaved my 3, 5, 7, and 11 year olds are all the time (I get compliments on how well behaved our 8 month old is too, but I don't think that counts). As I said earlier in the thread; you can't use any method of discipline without dealing with the reason for misbehavior. My goal actually isn't merely good behavior. My goal is raising kids that are aware of the reasons and reasoning behind behavior. Good behavior is a nice side effect though.

In my wife's church, we have a "medium family" of 5 children.   There is a family with 13 children, one with 10, several with 9.  (some adopted).   Lot's of 7, 6's and 5's.   The church places a pretty good importance on spanking in willful defiance & disobedience.   Needless to say, this bunch of children are some of the most kind, soft spoken, respectful and obedient children I've ever seen.

That said, OUR SCRIPTURES encourage spanking as well.

Of course, that might just be because the children are afraid of adults and know if they act out, they'll be beaten.

And anyone whose taken psych classes know that research demonstrates that direct punishment (as in, application of a noxious stimulus like electric shock, painful noise, or physical beatings) is an ineffective method of behavioral modification anyway.

[macclesfieldfan1990]

My mum beat the crap out of me when I got rebellious.

[yeshuaisiam]

I have 5 kids as well. I primarily use other methods of discipline. I get compliments on how well behaved my 3, 5, 7, and 11 year olds are all the time (I get compliments on how well behaved our 8 month old is too, but I don't think that counts). As I said earlier in the thread; you can't use any method of discipline without dealing with the reason for misbehavior. My goal actually isn't merely good behavior. My goal is raising kids that are aware of the reasons and reasoning behind behavior. Good behavior is a nice side effect though.

In my wife's church, we have a "medium family" of 5 children.   There is a family with 13 children, one with 10, several with 9.  (some adopted).   Lot's of 7, 6's and 5's.   The church places a pretty good importance on spanking in willful defiance & disobedience.   Needless to say, this bunch of children are some of the most kind, soft spoken, respectful and obedient children I've ever seen.

That said, OUR SCRIPTURES encourage spanking as well.

Of course, that might just be because the children are afraid of adults and know if they act out, they'll be beaten.

And anyone whose taken psych classes know that research demonstrates that direct punishment (as in, application of a noxious stimulus like electric shock, painful noise, or physical beatings) is an ineffective method of behavioral modification anyway.

"You'll know them by their fruits".

Then take two pills of Dr. Spock, and call me lame.

[Quinault]

To reiterate my earlier point:

I'll chime in as well. I don't think that spanking is either the worst or best form of discipline.

I think it is too simplistic to simply eliminate spanking. You can sometimes harm a child more with words.

We advocate a discipline chart. Each action has a suitable consequence. Spanking shouldn't be the sole method of discipline. But time outs shouldn't be either. The punishment/consequence has to have a relation to the actual offense.

http://www.doorposts.com/details.aspx?id=14

It is easy to say "don't spank." It is harder to actually give examples from you own life on why other methods work. Spanking is an easy scapegoat for the real issue; lazy parenting. The answer to every act of misbehavior isn't to spank. A varied approach works best.

If your answer to every issue is the same you won't teach your children anything. If you discipline a child simply for being a child you harm them. But if you don't teach a child proper behavior you injure them in the long term as well. The key is to approach the issue with balance. The methods used with one child won't work with another. It isn't as easy as using time-outs and groundings instead of spanking. The issue is looking at misbehavior from a more subjective position.

Children can misbehave out of innocent naivete. They don't know that doing X is wrong. In those situations all you need do is teach them why the behavior is inappropriate and how to behave better.

Children also misbehave because of inner conflict. They are upset about "y" and so they do "z." In those cases if you use any for of discipline without discussion you will cause harm. Recently my daughter was really mouthy and demanding with me. I knew this behavior was out of character. So although she was behaving incorrectly, it would have been wrong to correct the behavior without addressing the heart. Once the issue that was bothering her (unrelated to her misbehaving) was dealt with she was able to recognize she was wrong and the issue was resolved. If I had just used time out, taking away privileges or other methods of discipline I would have missed a valuable teaching moment. I would have had a well behaved child, but I would have had an angry well behaved child.

Children can also misbehave simply out of a desire to obtain control and anger. But in my experience those situations are few and far between when you recognize the other two reasons for misbehavior.

All this to say that most of the time there is a *reason* for misbehavior in a child. So the method of discipline is secondary to recognizing the reason for the misbehavior. If we know the reason and have communication in place we don't have to discipline very often. This has to start early and it takes a great deal of humility on the part of the parents.

Since we don't believe as Orthodox Christians in a "sin nature" we need to make sure that we don't correct our children under the assumption that they are sinful by nature. If we take out the assumption of sin on the part of the child then almost any method of discipline can work. A time out done by an angry parent can be more damaging than a spank by a loving parent that discusses the issue with the child. Spanking doesn't have to be done in anger. No discipline method hould be done in anger.

[Quinault]

My mother's reaction to all misbehavior is that it is sin, and the child should be spanked. One time my then 9 month old son put dog poo in my purse. My mom told me I should spank his hide off because he was sinful. I figured that since he picked it up with his bare hands, he didn't think it was all that bad. I suspect he saw it on the floor, and wanted to clean it up for us and my purse was just a handy spot to put it. Of course I told him that was disgusting, and we directed him in how he should deal with dog poo in the future. I never found dog poo in my purse again. This was childlike naivete, not sin.


Our eldest son also used to dump stuff out on the floor all the time when he was around age 1-2 while my husband was overseas. I tried all manner of discipline with him (including spanking). Finally one day he decided to dump cayenne pepper onto the carpet. I warned him not to play with cayenne. He decided to do it anyway. He ended up with cayenne in his eyes, and all over his hands. He proceeded to rub his eyes after some cayenne floated up off the floor from being pounded into the carpet. After macing himself, I wasn't going to spank the boy. He hasn't dumped anything since then Sometimes kids discipline themselves! Spanking the hide off that boy for all the things he did because he missed his dad would have been extremely sinful on my part. He would have learned exactly NOTHING. I stand by our parenting position that spanking in a blunt method of discipline, and is only useful in certain cases. I don't want to raise kids that simply behave well. I want to raise children that are capable of self regulating and preventing themselves from acting out. Being able to recognize that you feel like hitting someone because of "x" issue is highly useful. Mom and Dad aren't going to be there with them to spank them whenever they sin. Behavior comes out of the overflow of the heart. Until you parent the heart and deal with those issues, you can't actually deal with the real problem even if a child is welling behaved.

[Quinault]

That boy is now 5. I was told today that he is a sweet and perceptive boy. A woman at our parish was feeling very down, she was putting a brave face on, but was having a hard time. Little Ollie came up, took her hand gently in his own, and asked her why she was so sad. We are raising a sweet, perceptive and caring child. Spanking that boy for misbehaving at every turn would have pounded that quality out of him. Instead I used other methods, and we talked about why he was really misbehaving. Sure, he has been spanked on occasion. But my primary goal is to shepherd his heart, not corral his behavior.

[macclesfieldfan1990]

Mom and Dad aren't going to be there with them to spank them whenever they sin. Behavior comes out of the overflow of the heart. Until you parent the heart and deal with those issues, you can't actually deal with the real problem even if a child is welling behaved.

Mumsy and Dadsy spanked (or slapped when I was older) me until I was about 20. It mad me into a man.

I developed a heart through tough love. If my parents were push-overs, I promise you I wouldn't be as nice. It's human behavior, you need to learn your place before you become an adult.

[Achronos]

I never got spanked and I really don't know why I wasn't rebellious or even bad. I just had a mother who was extremely nurturing and I loved both my parents deeply. My father seemed the type for discipline but he wasn't around as much as my mother was because he was on business trips.

Ask my mother, I never got into any trouble nor had any inclination too. I think alot of that has to do with my environment growing up since I was very sheltered and it wasn't until the family moved to Colorado where I got to "see the world". But even then, throughout high school no rebellious behavior. It wasn't until during college that I became more rebellious.

Wonder why that is, I'd love to talk to a psychologist about it.

[Quinault]

Mom and Dad aren't going to be there with them to spank them whenever they sin. Behavior comes out of the overflow of the heart. Until you parent the heart and deal with those issues, you can't actually deal with the real problem even if a child is welling behaved.

Mumsy and Dadsy spanked (or slapped when I was older) me until I was about 20. It mad me into a man.

I developed a heart through tough love. If my parents were push-overs, I promise you I wouldn't be as nice. It's human behavior, you need to learn your place before you become an adult.

I don't think you get my point. Spanking, time out, groundings etc. are secondary to teaching your child. You can't randomly smack your kids upside the head, just like you can't randomly throw them in time-out. Parenting isn't as easy as "spank your kids, they will be well behaved" or "don't spank your kids and they will be well behaved." It is unwise, and downright irresponsible to say that spanking (or not spanking) is the answer. No method of discipline is "the answer." Being an active, involved, and perceptive parent is. A active and involved parent will have well behaved children PERIOD, no matter what form of discipline they use (unless there is something medical going on with a child that prevents them from being capable of being well behaved).

[Achronos]

 I'm not a parent and not even close to bring ready to be one, but I nod my head in agreement with Quinalt. I find there are much more better alternatives than spanking. You have to reinforce positive behaviors by praising them when they do it. I used to watch those nanny shows where they have a nanny come in and help parents in parenting. But alot of the times kids are too far along in their development that trying to discipline them is impossible. I'm always amazed at the parents who just cannot parent.

But having parents involved is the most important. And alot of the bad parenting are certain parents who are never involved with their kids. It's heartbreaking.

[macclesfieldfan1990]

A active and involved parent will have well behaved children PERIOD, no matter what form of discipline they use (unless there is something medical going on with a child that prevents them from being capable of being well behaved).

[Quinault]

I have seen parents that would just silently pick up their kids and place them in time out without saying a word on why the child is going into time out. I have also seen parents just come up and smack their kids without saying a word. (In both cases I had seen the parents/kids interact like this for YEARS) You may think it is a "duh" issue. But there is a good portion of the population that simply does not talk to their kids before implementing discipline. You can have a dialogue with even a non-verbal infant on what is or is not acceptable behavior, and they do understand.

[primuspilus]

A active and involved parent will have well behaved children PERIOD, no matter what form of discipline they use (unless there is something medical going on with a child that prevents them from being capable of being well behaved)

This is possibly the silliest thing I have seen here, and that says alot.

PP

[Quinault]

Think it is silly all you like. But I can't say that every child that was (or was not) spanked that I ever met was perfectly behaved. The only commonality was the quality of the parent, not the method of discipline.

We have far too many female saints known for never spanking, let alone raising their voices toward their children, for anyone to say that spanking is mandated by our faith.

[orthonorm]

Think it is silly all you like. But I can't say that every child that was (or was not) spanked that I ever met was perfectly behaved. The only commonality was the quality of the parent, not the method of discipline.

We have far too many female saints known for never spanking, let alone raising their voices toward their children, for anyone to say that spanking is mandated by our faith.

Consistency of reward and punishment (ultimately the same things) and reasonable locus of control.

That's all there is.

And maybe love.

I could be wrong about all this as I never had any of the above, but is what has worked for me when dealing with children, animals, adults, etc. (I lived with a child for 8 years, have worked with seriously at risk youth, dog rehabilitation for rescue, mentally and psychologically burdened children and adults, oh and works with "regular" people as well.)

And pretty much every psychologist would agree with many more words which I don't have the time for.

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