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Author Topic: How do you deal with a 3.5yr old becoming more and more rebelious?  (Read 4884 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 30, 2011, 04:53:04 PM »

Our 3.5yr old is becoming more and more rebellious. She doesn't listen much at all, she has lots of meltdowns. I feel like the more she understands, the more she doesn't listen.
We don't want to be hard with her, but we don't want to be lenient either.
In some cases we try to use redirection but that doesn't always work. We also use bribing (if you eat your food you'll get a cookie etc) but I don't like that kind of mentality that there is always a direct reward to everything good you do.
I was wondering what your approach is to such behavior (apart from praying for their enlightenment of course)
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 06:00:12 PM »

I could tell you how my parents dealt with it, but it might not be too popular round here police
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 06:13:58 PM »

Bribes (as well as the negative, consequence) are excellent methods. Think of it as teaching life lessons. All things worth having (the bribe) must be earned, and all things prudent to avoid have consequence. If you tailor your method to this, it may help her, as well as your conscience.

Also, be sure not to give too much attention to negative meltdowns, as though they produce negative attention, they do result in attention. In some cases, attention is exactly what they want, at any means possible.

In the same line of thinking, don't be afraid to show (for her, as well as for yourself), that you are willing to be embarassed, lose valuable entertainment, lose shopping, etc for the purpose of correcting her behavior. If that means allowing her to tantrum in the house while you ignore her, so be it. If that means leaving the store early because she won't behave, so be it. And so on.

Remember, though she is beginning to reason, she is very literally insane (irrational). Her lack of experience and ability to relate to situations through previous knowledge will necessitate her reliance on her emotion. Though this doesn't follow in line with her desire for some independence, of course. In order to curtail improper emotional responses, you must provide situational reason. That is, negative response for incorrect behavior (consequence), and positive response for excellent behavior (reward, even if it's a verbal reward).
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 09:06:34 PM »

Agreeing with Former Reformer.

However, it is hard to give parenting advice over the internet.   You say she has meltdowns.  Well, that could be a lot of things... number one in my mind is that she knows it works and she can get what she wants.  But, then again, it could be something different.  You could be frustrating her to the point where she has no recourse but to melt down.  I've seen both happen.  Without seeing HOW you are parenting her, it's really hard to tell.

My experience with my own kids was the set hard and fast boundaries the younger they were.  Then they knew what to expect.  Temper Tantrums were a no-no.  You do it, you get taken to your room and the door is shut.  I don't reason and coddle someone who is in a rage.  A parent who wants to talk a child through it just looks weak and silly, IMHO.  Once they calm down, then is the time to have a little chat... and that chat would include the message that tantrums are unacceptable and there WILL be serious consequences if they try to pull that on me again.  I am the parent.  In the words of the wise clown "Homey don't do that.".

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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 02:11:23 AM »

Take away her iPhone.
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 02:13:04 AM »

In the words of the wise clown "Homey don't do that.".
I believe the proper phrase is "Homey don't play dat".
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 10:05:08 AM »

I'm not a parent, but from the experience that I've had with one of my nieces when she was that age...

We don't want to be hard with her

You have to. You're the parent, the child needs to "understand" that before understanding anything else.

Quote
We also use bribing (if you eat your food you'll get a cookie etc) but I don't like that kind of mentality that there is always a direct reward to everything good you do.

Used properly, it can help, but can also lead to the child demanding whatever they want in exchange for (a very short period of) good behavior. My mom used to tell her that if she was good while shopping, she would get to ride a penny-fed dinosaur at the front of the store, it was great. At the sam time, a "I'll be good as long as you give me what I want" attitude has to be killed. I agree with you also that it's a good idea to raise children to do what's right for the purpose of doing what's right and not be expecting a payoff single everytime something is done right.

But that's just my experience as an uncle, so feel free to dismiss it.
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2011, 10:41:14 AM »

I could tell you how my parents dealt with it, but it might not be too popular round here police

My parents prayed a lot for me, and rarely spanked me. I don't know how that affected my character and behavior in general, but I wasn't a rebel in my youth. I've read books saying that physical punishment doesn't help, it only makes things worse. I see that it doesn't help with my daughter at all, it only makes her cry harder, and I don't see any difference from that. When you result to such methods, most of the time its out of anger and frustration, not to teach them a lesson. I've also seen others that slap their boys regularly, to the point that the boys aren't even phased by it, and they are still very wild.
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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2011, 11:59:31 AM »

I could tell you how my parents dealt with it, but it might not be too popular round here police

My parents prayed a lot for me, and rarely spanked me. I don't know how that affected my character and behavior in general, but I wasn't a rebel in my youth. I've read books saying that physical punishment doesn't help, it only makes things worse. I see that it doesn't help with my daughter at all, it only makes her cry harder, and I don't see any difference from that. When you result to such methods, most of the time its out of anger and frustration, not to teach them a lesson. I've also seen others that slap their boys regularly, to the point that the boys aren't even phased by it, and they are still very wild.

As I said on that thread, corporal punishment works. It has for thousands of years. I am a parent and I have used it very sparingly but it is effective. Dont do it in anger or rage.

PP
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2011, 12:09:52 PM »

I could tell you how my parents dealt with it, but it might not be too popular round here police

My parents prayed a lot for me, and rarely spanked me. I don't know how that affected my character and behavior in general, but I wasn't a rebel in my youth. I've read books saying that physical punishment doesn't help, it only makes things worse. I see that it doesn't help with my daughter at all, it only makes her cry harder, and I don't see any difference from that. When you result to such methods, most of the time its out of anger and frustration, not to teach them a lesson. I've also seen others that slap their boys regularly, to the point that the boys aren't even phased by it, and they are still very wild.

As I said on that thread, corporal punishment works. It has for thousands of years. I am a parent and I have used it very sparingly but it is effective. Dont do it in anger or rage.

PP

I agree, however, as I tried to explain in my first post, I have to caveat that there must be a 'method to the madness'. There needs to be some structured rhyme and reason to your punishment and reward. Consistency is even more important for children. I spank, but I attempt to make it rare and used only when 'the message isn't getting across'.

I'll echo the 'never in anger' part either. It's important, not only to keep your punishment under control (and not an adult temper tantrum), but so the child sees the spanking as a reasoned punishment, and not a pure beating.
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 03:27:21 PM »

I would get lots of break time in my room. (I didn't have a TV in there until I was 13.) However, sometimes I did get hit.
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 04:51:21 PM »

Hi,
I do have one suggestion. My son (around the same age) has had frequent meltdowns that are completely out of control (30 minutes long or longer) and has extreme difficulty with transitioning from one activity to the next. I chalked this up to stubbornness or power struggle. My wife, who is more wise than I, decided to get him assessed and it turns out he has a sensory overload condition. We had some training and suggestions on how to help with this issue and we are slowly doing better.

I'm not suggesting your child has any kind of medical problem, just that if you think her behavior is really beyond what could be considered normal, it doesn't hurt to get an assessment.

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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 04:54:17 PM »

i'd read the first chapter of St. Theophan's "The Spiritual Life and how to be attuned to it" (or is it "the Path to Salvation"...)
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 05:09:50 PM »

Hi,
I do have one suggestion. My son (around the same age) has had frequent meltdowns that are completely out of control (30 minutes long or longer) and has extreme difficulty with transitioning from one activity to the next. I chalked this up to stubbornness or power struggle. My wife, who is more wise than I, decided to get him assessed and it turns out he has a sensory overload condition. We had some training and suggestions on how to help with this issue and we are slowly doing better.

I'm not suggesting your child has any kind of medical problem, just that if you think her behavior is really beyond what could be considered normal, it doesn't hurt to get an assessment.



I would second this suggestion.

Also, do you have a family history of allergies? Could the outbursts be do to diet, to pollens, or to something in the environment?

My son, when he was three, would throw a tantrum whenever we visited a particular store. I finally realized that he was allergic to the formaldehyde in the clothing and in the store. We never took him in that store again. Also he reacted whenever we visited the insecticide/herbicide section of the hardware store. He would start coughing and then cry. His nose would drip, and he would become miserable. This misery could last for about three days. I found that hugging him and giving him a lot of liquids helped.

Once when he was two, he ate a Macadamian nut. Within ten minutes, his eyes, throat, and face began to swell. We immediately called the paramedics, and then called our doctor. The pediatrician recommended that we give him a capsule of Vitamin B6 (50 mg) under his tongue. We had just done so when the Fire Department arrived. Upon examining the child, they started to place him on the gurney for transport to the hospital. While doing so, they noticed that his vitals had improved and that his eyes were opening. They asked us what we had done, and we told him about the B6. They told us jokingly not to tell anyone else, as they would be forced out of business. Smiley They left without our child as his improvement was so dramatic.

After that experience, we were especially careful when giving him a new food. And we carried that bottle of B6 around with us just in case. It saved his life several times.

I have seen children have sudden outbursts, which could last for several hours or days, when given a food product that was loaded with dyes, preservatives, and high fructose corn syrup sweeteners. It turned out that these children had serious allergies to corn, artificial flavorings, etc.
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2012, 05:08:25 PM »

Our 3.5yr old is becoming more and more rebellious. She doesn't listen much at all, she has lots of meltdowns. I feel like the more she understands, the more she doesn't listen.
We don't want to be hard with her, but we don't want to be lenient either.
In some cases we try to use redirection but that doesn't always work. We also use bribing (if you eat your food you'll get a cookie etc) but I don't like that kind of mentality that there is always a direct reward to everything good you do.
I was wondering what your approach is to such behavior (apart from praying for their enlightenment of course)


The bible says "Spare the rod spoil the child".

It's true.   Whoop her behind.   If she cries and throw a fit in protest, whoop her again until she has the "defeated """okay okay okay""" type of cry.   We have barely ever had to go past 3 swats with a hand.

There's barely a worse time in parenting than when you have to do it.  Bribing does not work.  Time out only works if they know they'll get spanked if they don't go or rebel in the corner or whatever.

We have 5 children.  Oldest is 13, the youngest is 3.  We didn't spank past 10 years old. Our 13 year old is a complete utter blessing in our life and I have nothing bad to say about her attitude or behavior.   Pleasant, kind, non-rebellious.   3 year old learns the ropes, is adorable.  Never has a temper tantrum because she knows she'll get a spanking if she does it.

Children need boundaries.   They need to know  that a parent will correct their behavior no matter what.
Working so far.

I was whooped too as a child.  I deserved it.
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2012, 05:17:47 PM »

Our 3.5yr old is becoming more and more rebellious. She doesn't listen much at all, she has lots of meltdowns. I feel like the more she understands, the more she doesn't listen.
We don't want to be hard with her, but we don't want to be lenient either.
In some cases we try to use redirection but that doesn't always work. We also use bribing (if you eat your food you'll get a cookie etc) but I don't like that kind of mentality that there is always a direct reward to everything good you do.
I was wondering what your approach is to such behavior (apart from praying for their enlightenment of course)


The bible says "Spare the rod spoil the child".

It's true.   Whoop her behind.   If she cries and throw a fit in protest, whoop her again until she has the "defeated """okay okay okay""" type of cry.   We have barely ever had to go past 3 swats with a hand.

There's barely a worse time in parenting than when you have to do it.  Bribing does not work.  Time out only works if they know they'll get spanked if they don't go or rebel in the corner or whatever.

We have 5 children.  Oldest is 13, the youngest is 3.  We didn't spank past 10 years old. Our 13 year old is a complete utter blessing in our life and I have nothing bad to say about her attitude or behavior.   Pleasant, kind, non-rebellious.   3 year old learns the ropes, is adorable.  Never has a temper tantrum because she knows she'll get a spanking if she does it.

Children need boundaries.   They need to know  that a parent will correct their behavior no matter what.
Working so far.

I was whooped too as a child.  I deserved it.
I don't think I can ever embrace spanking. It is illegal(although one out of 4 danish children claim, they have been physically punished by their parents), but I still don't think I would ever be capable of laying a hand on a child. It just seems wrong.
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2012, 08:54:41 PM »

Well normally if I did that when I was a child my mother would just give me a belt to the arse.
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2012, 11:35:54 PM »

While avoiding speaking to direct discipline (I don't know you, your child or your living situation, all of which play into deciding proper discipline, despite the once-size-spanks-all approach some may take), it really just sounds like your three-year-old is a normal three-year-old.

You might want to read this book, which you can buy online for $0.01 USD. It's not a parenting manual; it's just a psychological profile of the average three year old.
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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2012, 12:01:06 AM »

I think it's a great idea to have your child tested for ADHD or some other disability, but it also sounds as though your child is just behaving like a 3 year old behaves.  I think it's a really bad idea to use bribes, though I have employed it before.  You are the parent, not the best buddy.  At that age, they need to understand that there are real consequences to disobeying momma and daddy.  And remember that you and your wife need to be a united front when it comes to disciplining.  There can't be a 'good cop/bad cop' situation because they'll pick up on that right quick.  And though for some odd reason it's popularity is waning, I know that corporal punishment (spanking) is very effective.  But it should never be used in anger. 
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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2012, 09:56:15 PM »

I'm telling you...

As a parent of 5 children aged 13 to 3, you need to put aside all the modern thinking, and just spank.
I don't know the Danish laws, but they are up for some kind of future if spanking is illegal.

I'm not talking about beating them, but just a good old fashioned spanking.  Works very very well.

There is a book called "The Strong Willed Child" by James Dobson (yes I know he's a protestant but still a great book).   Despite his theology which he doesn't run you into the ground with, his approach on this matter is excellent.

If you go with time out, groundings, bribing, you are IN for it.... I'm trying to be humble,  but this is a very true warning.   Try to give that book a read, and you'll see why.  The first spanking on the first child is the worst because you've never had to do it before.  Then as time goes on, you'll see it works.

Later you can use punishments like "standing in the corner" because they know if they won't comply with the corner, they'll get a spanking.   

Spank in willful defiance to you.
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2012, 10:02:59 PM »

One other thing.

I relative of mine who had some of the best behaved children I have ever seen (now adults) who are great adults in a full functional family said:

"A spanking is a little pain now to save a lot of pain later"
"A beating (a severe spanking said country style) is a lot of pain now to save an enormous amount of pain later"

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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2012, 12:23:37 AM »

To comment on that spanking bit, just make sure that you actually explain to them why you are spanking them so that they learn not to do it again. I know many people who just spank their children when they do wrong but they do not explain to them what they did wrong so the child just ends up doing it again in five minutes. My mother always spanked me and then when we had calmed down she would explain to me why I got in trouble, then wipe my tears and give me a popsicle.
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2012, 06:41:42 AM »

I'm telling you...

As a parent of 5 children aged 13 to 3, you need to put aside all the modern thinking, and just spank.
I don't know the Danish laws, but they are up for some kind of future if spanking is illegal.

I'm not talking about beating them, but just a good old fashioned spanking.  Works very very well.

There is a book called "The Strong Willed Child" by James Dobson (yes I know he's a protestant but still a great book).   Despite his theology which he doesn't run you into the ground with, his approach on this matter is excellent.

If you go with time out, groundings, bribing, you are IN for it.... I'm trying to be humble,  but this is a very true warning.   Try to give that book a read, and you'll see why.  The first spanking on the first child is the worst because you've never had to do it before.  Then as time goes on, you'll see it works.

Later you can use punishments like "standing in the corner" because they know if they won't comply with the corner, they'll get a spanking.   

Spank in willful defiance to you.
Spanking is illegal, and it's generally considered bad parenting. Instead, many danish parents make use of a more psychological approach. My parents have never laid a hand on me and I have turned out fine.
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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2012, 09:28:37 AM »

Children crave and desire a good whooping from time to time.  It helps them develop into effective people.  If they did not desire this, why do they commit evil deeds?  This is a sure sign of their desire for punishment.  I would recommend though, that you use nothing worse than a weed whacker on them.  Anything more damaging than a weed whacker is just going a bit too far.
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2012, 12:37:01 PM »

I realize this is an old thread, but, chiming in with my 2cents.

The book recommended above ("Your 3 Year Old") is a great guide on understanding developmentally appropriate behavior. The book does not really mention how to deal with the "developmentally appropriate, undesirable" behavior, but I have to say- in my opinion- if a parent has time to calm down before administering a "spanking", then they often have time to calm down to find a more productive way to handle the issue.
It is possible to be firm without spanking or hitting. (It can be difficult, especially for those of us who were spanked as children.)

Addressing the issue of a "rebellious" 3.5 year old: getting a feel for your own autonomy sounds normal for a 3.5 year old. It's also the age for disequilibrium. If possible, I would try to employ some positive methods like those outlined in the book Playful Parenting. (Example: kid wants potato chips, but it's time to eat healthier food. Parent grants wish through words. "I wish I could give you all the potato chips in the world. Your body would get so sick, though. You may have carrots and hommus or you may have grapes." If kid starts to meltdown, "I hear that you're really upset about not getting potato chips right now. It's okay to be upset. I'm going back to my (activity) and when you've decided whether you want carrots or grapes you may come and let me know.")
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« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2012, 08:16:30 PM »

I'm telling you...

As a parent of 5 children aged 13 to 3, you need to put aside all the modern thinking, and just spank.
I don't know the Danish laws, but they are up for some kind of future if spanking is illegal.

I'm not talking about beating them, but just a good old fashioned spanking.  Works very very well.

There is a book called "The Strong Willed Child" by James Dobson (yes I know he's a protestant but still a great book).   Despite his theology which he doesn't run you into the ground with, his approach on this matter is excellent.

If you go with time out, groundings, bribing, you are IN for it.... I'm trying to be humble,  but this is a very true warning.   Try to give that book a read, and you'll see why.  The first spanking on the first child is the worst because you've never had to do it before.  Then as time goes on, you'll see it works.

Later you can use punishments like "standing in the corner" because they know if they won't comply with the corner, they'll get a spanking.   

Spank in willful defiance to you.
Spanking is illegal, and it's generally considered bad parenting. Instead, many danish parents make use of a more psychological approach. My parents have never laid a hand on me and I have turned out fine.

Some children are like that, where they never need spankings.  But if your 3.5 year old is giving you problems, at least consider reading the book I told you about.
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« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2012, 08:28:28 PM »

I'm telling you...

As a parent of 5 children aged 13 to 3, you need to put aside all the modern thinking, and just spank.
I don't know the Danish laws, but they are up for some kind of future if spanking is illegal.

I'm not talking about beating them, but just a good old fashioned spanking.  Works very very well.

There is a book called "The Strong Willed Child" by James Dobson (yes I know he's a protestant but still a great book).   Despite his theology which he doesn't run you into the ground with, his approach on this matter is excellent.

If you go with time out, groundings, bribing, you are IN for it.... I'm trying to be humble,  but this is a very true warning.   Try to give that book a read, and you'll see why.  The first spanking on the first child is the worst because you've never had to do it before.  Then as time goes on, you'll see it works.

Later you can use punishments like "standing in the corner" because they know if they won't comply with the corner, they'll get a spanking.   

Spank in willful defiance to you.
Spanking is illegal, and it's generally considered bad parenting. Instead, many danish parents make use of a more psychological approach. My parents have never laid a hand on me and I have turned out fine.

Some children are like that, where they never need spankings.  But if your 3.5 year old is giving you problems, at least consider reading the book I told you about.
I'm might do that if I ever have children. However, I would still be breaking the law if I ever did spank a child.
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« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2012, 09:52:54 AM »

Quote
I'm might do that if I ever have children. However, I would still be breaking the law if I ever did spank a child.
Then throw me in jail. I spanked my boy, and if I have another, i'll spank him/her too.

PP
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« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2012, 10:27:25 AM »

Quote
I'm might do that if I ever have children. However, I would still be breaking the law if I ever did spank a child.
Then throw me in jail. I spanked my boy, and if I have another, i'll spank him/her too.

PP

Funny how when it comes to some issues such as immigration, some posters here claim the arbitrary law of the government is sacrosanct.  Yet if the government tells you that can't beat your child, you have the moral right to beat your child.     
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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2012, 10:51:29 AM »

Quote
Yet if the government tells you that can't beat your child, you have the moral right to beat your child.
I have never beaten him. I was beaten and abused to the point I was removed from my home. I'd not do that to mine.

PP
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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2012, 02:49:07 PM »

Quote
I'm might do that if I ever have children. However, I would still be breaking the law if I ever did spank a child.
Then throw me in jail. I spanked my boy, and if I have another, i'll spank him/her too.

PP

Funny how when it comes to some issues such as immigration, some posters here claim the arbitrary law of the government is sacrosanct.  Yet if the government tells you that can't beat your child, you have the moral right to beat your child.     

It's all about cost/benefit.  In general (I am trying to talk about the law in general, not get into a political [urinating] match) immigration laws can help to maintain order in society by limiting the number of people who do not already have work, do not have skills, do not speak the language or are otherwise unassimilated into the majority culture.  Immigration law can protect us from diseases, criminals, etc.  It provides benefit to society at a relatively small cost.  We may loose out on getting some useful people in, but countries that have a large enough population and a great enough population growth really can afford to miss out.

As for child discipline - I can see the point of there being laws that restrict parents from causing damage to their children (and judging from PP's reply, I am certain that he sees reason for these laws as well.)  Making parents fearful to give their children any effective discipline means that either the state must discipline these children when they get older - through far more painful means such as fines, prison sentences, felon status, and execution - or we will have to deal with unruly adults.  A child getting a good spanking is something I would gladly see more of if it means I don't have to wake up some night and shoot the now-grown-up child when he's breaking in my front door.
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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2012, 03:13:54 PM »

I'll chime in as well. I don't think that spanking is either the worst or best form of discipline.

I think it is too simplistic to simply eliminate spanking. You can sometimes harm a child more with words.

We advocate a discipline chart. Each action has a suitable consequence. Spanking shouldn't be the sole method of discipline. But time outs shouldn't be either. The punishment/consequence has to have a relation to the actual offense.

http://www.doorposts.com/details.aspx?id=14

It is easy to say "don't spank." It is harder to actually give examples from you own life on why other methods work. Spanking is an easy scapegoat for the real issue; lazy parenting. The answer to every act of misbehavior isn't to spank. A varied approach works best.

If your answer to every issue is the same you won't teach your children anything. If you discipline a child simply for being a child you harm them. But if you don't teach a child proper behavior you injure them in the long term as well. The key is to approach the issue with balance. The methods used with one child won't work with another. It isn't as easy as using time-outs and groundings instead of spanking. The issue is looking at misbehavior from a more subjective position.

Children can misbehave out of innocent naivete. They don't know that doing X is wrong. In those situations all you need do is teach them why the behavior is inappropriate and how to behave better.

Children also misbehave because of inner conflict. They are upset about "y" and so they do "z." In those cases if you use any for of discipline without discussion you will cause harm. Recently my daughter was really mouthy and demanding with me. I knew this behavior was out of character. So although she was behaving incorrectly, it would have been wrong to correct the behavior without addressing the heart. Once the issue that was bothering her (unrelated to her misbehaving) was dealt with she was able to recognize she was wrong and the issue was resolved. If I had just used time out, taking away privileges or other methods of discipline I would have missed a valuable teaching moment. I would have had a well behaved child, but I would have had an angry well behaved child.

Children can also misbehave simply out of a desire to obtain control and anger. But in my experience those situations are few and far between when you recognize the other two reasons for misbehavior.

All this to say that most of the time there is a *reason* for misbehavior in a child. So the method of discipline is secondary to recognizing the reason for the misbehavior. If we know the reason and have communication in place we don't have to discipline very often. This has to start early and it takes a great deal of humility on the part of the parents.

Since we don't believe as Orthodox Christians in a "sin nature" we need to make sure that we don't correct our children under the assumption that they are sinful by nature. If we take out the assumption of sin on the part of the child then almost any method of discipline can work. A time out done by an angry parent can be more damaging than a spank by a loving parent that discusses the issue with the child. Spanking doesn't have to be done in anger. No discipline method hould be done in anger.
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« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2012, 03:28:47 PM »

One more comment (for now):

Meltdowns aren't really a big deal. Yeah, they are loud and annoying. But I personally don't see the need to intervene in a meltdown. I ignore meltdowns/tantrums unless the child is in danger. But (and this is a BIG but) I do have a surefire way to stop them when they go on far too long or get out of hand. A cold shower takes the fight out of everyone. A spank will NOT help in the situation of a child that is angry and out of hand. No matter how calm you are when you spank them, your child will just get angrier if you spank them when they are already angry. Imagine how you would feel as an adult if you were angry and and someone came up and spanked you, would that make you calm down? I know that I would be angrier if that was done to me. Spanking is a tool, a blunt object so to speak. That tool can be very useful in some situations. But if you use a blunt object in place of a precision instrument for certain issues you end up doing more harm than good.

We spank very rarely. The last time any of our kids were really spanked was over a month ago. We took all 5 of the kids to a local park. My husband decided to jog ahead. I understood that he was jogging with 2 of them. He in fact told them specifically to jog back to me while they could still see me. Instead they paused long enough so he couldn't see them and then decided to follow. I was calling them to come back and instead they ran ahead. In fact, they ended up about 1/2 mile ahead of me and 1/2 behind my husband. They put themselves in danger. The put me in a situation where I would have had to leave our 2 year old and 3 month old to get to them if I wanted to catch them. I had a huge stroller and kids with an enormous lead. I wasn't able to catch up to them. Fortunately my husband turned around and came upon them and brought them back. We had a very serious discussion and they both had a spank. This has been an issue in the past (running off) but this was by far the most serious case. We had tried all manner of other forms of discipline. None of them stayed long enough in their memory to keep them from doing it again. So far that spank and serious talk (where everyone ended up in tears) has stayed in place. They know now that they can't run off like that. We had to make sure they remembered the discipline. The "blunt" method was the only one that would/could work in that situation. We waited until we were home to spank. We made sure they were spanked individually and privately so that they weren't humiliated. They ended up waiting almost an hour from the offense to the punishment. We had to walk about a mile back to the car and then drive home. Our 5 and 6 year old son and daughter remember this well. Our 10 year old got into trouble as well. She was instructed to catch up to them for me since they were in sight, but I couldn't catch them with the stroller. Instead she ran ahead a little, then hid behind a tree to rest (which she didn't need to do) and by then her brother and sister were too far for either of us to reach them. Then as I was running to catch up with them she kept stopping instead of staying with me. She was neither winded or tired. She has no medical condition that prevents her from keeping up with me. She just didn't want to run.
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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2012, 07:12:23 PM »

Sometimes when I acted up, I'd get stuck with useless chores. I washed the garage a lot.
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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2012, 01:20:20 AM »

I like the idea I'm hearing from several people of trying to understand whats going on. This is one of the things we've done with our kids is we've identified certain times or situations in which they are likely to melt down if we don't intervene ahead of time. For example about 3:30 PM unless they have a snack, they throw fits, so we try to feed them before that and if we don't they don't get into so much trouble cause we kinda figure we new better and it's partly our fault.

The other thing I noted reading above is the idea of the children seeking negative attention. That is a risk and one way to counter that that wasn't mentioned (unless I missed it) is, also proactively, giving them positive attention. I've seen families that basically ignore the kids unless they do something wrong, or more to the point and to the annoyance of others around, until they do something so wrong it can't be ignored.
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« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2012, 05:21:17 AM »

The bible tells me that I am the head of the household due to my genitalia.  Clearly if my wife is disobedient or uppity I have every right to beat here.  I know her limits, so I can beat her without leaving visible bruises and before she'll call the police.  It's my right from the LORD and no government can tell me that I can't beat my wife if I need to.  Since the family is the most important unit of society, keeping my family in line is necessary otherwise society will breakdown.   
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« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2012, 05:23:25 AM »

The bible tells me that I am the head of the household due to my genitalia.  Clearly if my wife is disobedient or uppity I have every right to beat here.  I know her limits, so I can beat her without leaving visible bruises and before she'll call the police.  It's my right from the LORD and no government can tell me that I can't beat my wife if I need to.  Since the family is the most important unit of society, keeping my family in line is necessary otherwise society will breakdown.   

You can't be serious .... are you?  Shocked
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« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2012, 09:07:07 AM »

The bible tells me that I am the head of the household due to my genitalia.  Clearly if my wife is disobedient or uppity I have every right to beat here.  I know her limits, so I can beat her without leaving visible bruises and before she'll call the police.  It's my right from the LORD and no government can tell me that I can't beat my wife if I need to.  Since the family is the most important unit of society, keeping my family in line is necessary otherwise society will breakdown.   


PP
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« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2012, 12:14:37 PM »

Wow, I came back to this thread after a long time, I didn't realize it was still going on.
Thank you all for your suggestions!
Our daughter turned 4 recently. At this point she listens to reasonable talk, and her cries or complains don't usually get past 2 minutes, otherwise we do send her to her room, and at that age she understands the gravity of her timeout, and quickly says "I'm sorry" and "Please forgive me".
Yes we try to incorporate those two phrases into her vocabulary and help her understand that when she does something bad, she needs to apologize.
The past 6 months have been less of a meltdown and more of a behavior of a spoiled child. Makes sense cause her grandma moved in since last November, and the timing is just right. Her grandma made it her job to spoil her as much as possible, and in return we became more strict. Not only I had to discipline my daughter, I also had to explain why to the grandma. Not something I would wish anyone else to experience on everyday basis.
Anyway. We just came back from a week long vacation with just my wife and I, and our daughter was for the most part very obedient and easy going.
I think her rebel behavior is triggered when she is close to someone who will jump through hoops to do her bidding.
This has been the point of friction between me and my mother in law, but to be honest, I'd rather be in bad terms with my mother in law, than lose control in the proper upbringing of my child, and miss the chance of shaping a good character she will have for life.
But I'm happy that we very sparingly now spank our daughter, maybe once or twice a month, in cases that she really doesn't listen. It seems that its not an essential discipline tool at this point.
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« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2012, 03:12:51 PM »

Be happy that grandma loves her so much Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2012, 04:34:07 PM »

The bible tells me that I am the head of the household due to my genitalia.  Clearly if my wife is disobedient or uppity I have every right to beat here.  I know her limits, so I can beat her without leaving visible bruises and before she'll call the police.  It's my right from the LORD and no government can tell me that I can't beat my wife if I need to.  Since the family is the most important unit of society, keeping my family in line is necessary otherwise society will breakdown.   

You can't be serious .... are you?  Shocked

Of course not.  But for all those talking about how they would righteously defy the law of the land and spank their children - there is literally no difference in my justification for spousal battery, so why not?  I simply don't understand the sort of I-had-to-beat-the-tar-out-of-my-here-boy-and-he-turn'd-out-good mindset.   
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« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2012, 02:25:51 AM »

The bible tells me that I am the head of the household due to my genitalia.  Clearly if my wife is disobedient or uppity I have every right to beat here.  I know her limits, so I can beat her without leaving visible bruises and before she'll call the police.  It's my right from the LORD and no government can tell me that I can't beat my wife if I need to.  Since the family is the most important unit of society, keeping my family in line is necessary otherwise society will breakdown.   

You can't be serious .... are you?  Shocked

Of course not.  But for all those talking about how they would righteously defy the law of the land and spank their children - there is literally no difference in my justification for spousal battery, so why not?  I simply don't understand the sort of I-had-to-beat-the-tar-out-of-my-here-boy-and-he-turn'd-out-good mindset.   

Phew. You had me worried for a while.  Shocked laugh

And, I quite agree with your post. Well said.  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2012, 04:01:33 AM »

The bible tells me that I am the head of the household due to my genitalia.  Clearly if my wife is disobedient or uppity I have every right to beat here.  I know her limits, so I can beat her without leaving visible bruises and before she'll call the police.  It's my right from the LORD and no government can tell me that I can't beat my wife if I need to.  Since the family is the most important unit of society, keeping my family in line is necessary otherwise society will breakdown.   
Straw man

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It's only a straw man if you believe your children are your property instead of, you know, human beings.
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« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2012, 10:00:18 AM »

Quote
It's only a straw man if you believe your children are your property instead of, you know, human beings
So because I spanked my son, that means I think of him as property? Really? Thats your argument?

PP
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« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2012, 02:20:22 AM »

Quote
It's only a straw man if you believe your children are your property instead of, you know, human beings
So because I spanked my son, that means I think of him as property? Really? Thats your argument?

PP

If you think Nektarios' argument is a straw man, then yes.
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