OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 22, 2014, 09:55:57 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Pope Benedict to Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew  (Read 6883 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #135 on: December 03, 2011, 09:06:03 PM »

..... because we raise points that are never refuted nor addressed. For example, many of the loudmouths on this forum DO NOT understand what nihil obstats and imprimaturs are,

Well, it’s true that Catholics have shown their confusion on this matter.  You yourself are a bit confused:



It has nothing to do with the magisterium. Nihil obstats are issued by individual bishops.



No, they are not issued by bishops.  They are issued by theologians.  Their work is to examine a book and declare that it is free from doctrinal error and that what is in it may be believed by the Catholic faithful.
Oh cute...you think you're going to be witty and post what you sent to me via a private message and "expose" my ignorance. Too bad I beat you to it here, and I am totally willing to admit that I was mistaken:

Since it seems that a great many on this forum (including even myself) do not have a proper understanding of the nihil obstat and the imprimatur, I thought it would be useful to have a thread to clear everything up. Fr. Ambrose pointed out to me, for instance, that the nihil obstat is not actually issued by the bishop...only the imprimatur is.

Quote
All a nihil obstat says is that nothing within a literary work is inherently heretical. It does not in any way say that the magisterium approves every letter of the book as official Church teaching.

Since a Nihil Obstat is not issued by a bishop you are correct in saying that it is not the approval of the magisterium.
So if it was issued by a bishop then you think it would equal magisterial approval? Hardly. The magisterium is ALL of the bishops, not just a solitary bishop.

Btw, it is the Imprimatur which a bishops issues which permits a work to be printed with his blessing.
Hey...since you know so much about nihil obstats and imprimaturs, Father, why did you never correct ialmisry when he was grossly misrepresenting what nihil obstats and imprimaturs mean within the Catholic faith? You put plenty of energy into correcting me over a technicality when ialmisry was severely in error. If you're going to be biased, at least make it subtle. Don't be blatantly so.


Quote
.....  seriously, if you want to convince people to think like you do, at least make it appear like you know and are presenting facts.

Well, I do agree with that.  All the Catholics on here have lost a little credibility since they are confused about Nihil Obstats and Imprimaturs and who issues what!
Not nearly as embarrassing as the Eastern Orthodox or Pseudo-Catholics who say outlandish things like that the Nihil Obstats and Imprimaturs are issued by the magisterium, although of course you don't recall that because you conveniently turned a blind eye to those things.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,129


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #136 on: December 03, 2011, 09:07:49 PM »


Not nearly as embarrassing as the Eastern Orthodox or Pseudo-Catholics who say outlandish things like that the Nihil Obstats and Imprimaturs are issued by the magisterium, although of course you don't recall that because you conveniently turned a blind eye to those things.
That's how Fr. A rolls.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #137 on: December 03, 2011, 09:15:37 PM »

So out of all this nonsense you still haven't answered my question. Let's try this again.
Ok...GO FOR IT.

Why do you still post on this forum?
What an odd question. Why do you?

It is clear that you are in no way interested in joining the Orthodox Church nor are you interested in Orthodoxy itself.
Are you sure about that?

My faith rests on the solid pillars of Orthodoxy.
Mine rests on Christ and His Church.

It is like a rock.
Your faith is like a Chevy truck?

If RC's, like Stanely, who are interested in the Church and want to learn more and maybe think about possibly becoming a member then I have absoultley no issue with it.
I'm glad he has your seal of approval, oh mighty pseudo-moderator.

I welcome them and hope they find the answers here to be illuming.
illuming?

The issue I have is when RC's who have no intention joining the Orthodox or even remotely interested in what they believe still post here and continue to bicker and embroil themselves over issues that have been tireless refuted by Orthodox members.
Our issues have been refuted? Really? When did that happen? Quotes?

I believe Fr. Ambrose took care of the rest of your post so I won't bother with it.
Yes...and he had about as much of a point as you do. Wink
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #138 on: December 03, 2011, 09:15:58 PM »

..... because we raise points that are never refuted nor addressed. For example, many of the loudmouths on this forum DO NOT understand what nihil obstats and imprimaturs are,

Well, it’s true that Catholics have shown their confusion on this matter.  You yourself are a bit confused:


Indeed you are, Father.  Both the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, the first issued by the local ordinary and the latter issued by the diocesan censor who is delegated by the bishop and can be ANYONE of that bishop's choosing, carry no real weight beyond the see of the local ordinary issuing the declaration and the release. 

So no matter what you say or anyone else says, the release to publish is predicated on the question of whether or not the text EXPLICITLY and PURPOSEFULLY does harm to the faith: which are the formal elements of heresy by the way: and it is a release that only bears any real weight within that bishops sphere of influence which is his local see.

It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.


I am not confused.  I never said what you seem to be accusing me of, viz.,  “It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.”  I’d be an idiot to make such an assertion.  Like Devin’s blog you appear to have a low opinion of us and give us little credit for knowing a few things.  Sad  The Nihil Obstast is a declaration that there is nothing contrary to the Roman Catholic faith.

That is imprecise: for someone who knows a few things.

The NO simply indicates that there are no formal heretical elements in the book that are intended to  draw the reader away from the Church.  In other words, there is nothing there that is formally heretical...to the best of the knowledge of the LOCAL censor.

I suppose that even false teachings are published with episcopal Imprimatur.  There is that book on purgatory Read It or Rue It from the 1930s -with an Imprimatur and an enthusiastic Introduction from the Cardinal Archbishop of Lisbon.  It was true in its day, and in fact it would have comprised part of the infallible teaching of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium (all the bishops would have agreed with it.)   But now, 80 years later with the revamping of purgatorial doctrines.....

You cannot back up your assertion that all bishops would have agreed with each and every assertion in that book as formal teaching of the Catholic Church.  They MIGHT have agreed that it was a pastorally useful text, since many bishops, then and now, think the laity are about as dumb as sheep and need to be frightened into obedience... but even that assertion is nothing but an assertion..  I have that old text btw.

I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

As I have mentioned, in the past before doctrines began to be recast, the teaching of Limbo and the fire of purgatory were seen as such.



The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I will talk to you about the ordinary magisterium through those who are authorized to speak of it publicly but I am not going to participate in a "list hunt"....

There has been no recasting of doctrine as you call it. 

There is development of doctrine as the Church understands it but I doubt that you or Al Misry would give it more than a few paragraphs before the cut and paste and maps would come out.

Sorry but I don't have the interior energy for all that.  If I see a place where I might contribute to making the teaching of my Church more clear, I'll do that.

M.

Mary,  I am not asking for lists.

I an saying that there must surely be one or two examples you can provide  of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium functioning.   Or has it never actually ever functioned but it remains a theoretical concept?

But then why would the priest from whom I made enquiry have given the examples of Limbo and the fire of Purgatory?   He knew what my question concerned.  I think that Catholics on the forum are not familiar with the workings of the Magisterium in it various manifestations.

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #139 on: December 03, 2011, 09:18:04 PM »


Not nearly as embarrassing as the Eastern Orthodox or Pseudo-Catholics who say outlandish things like that the Nihil Obstats and Imprimaturs are issued by the magisterium, although of course you don't recall that because you conveniently turned a blind eye to those things.
That's how Fr. A rolls.

Please do not tell fibs about the clergy.  I am sure it'll heat up those purgatorial fires for you.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #140 on: December 03, 2011, 09:20:16 PM »

..... because we raise points that are never refuted nor addressed. For example, many of the loudmouths on this forum DO NOT understand what nihil obstats and imprimaturs are,

Well, it’s true that Catholics have shown their confusion on this matter.  You yourself are a bit confused:


Indeed you are, Father.  Both the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, the first issued by the local ordinary and the latter issued by the diocesan censor who is delegated by the bishop and can be ANYONE of that bishop's choosing, carry no real weight beyond the see of the local ordinary issuing the declaration and the release. 

So no matter what you say or anyone else says, the release to publish is predicated on the question of whether or not the text EXPLICITLY and PURPOSEFULLY does harm to the faith: which are the formal elements of heresy by the way: and it is a release that only bears any real weight within that bishops sphere of influence which is his local see.

It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.


I am not confused.  I never said what you seem to be accusing me of, viz.,  “It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.”  I’d be an idiot to make such an assertion.  Like Devin’s blog you appear to have a low opinion of us and give us little credit for knowing a few things.  Sad  The Nihil Obstast is a declaration that there is nothing contrary to the Roman Catholic faith.

That is imprecise: for someone who knows a few things.

The NO simply indicates that there are no formal heretical elements in the book that are intended to  draw the reader away from the Church.  In other words, there is nothing there that is formally heretical...to the best of the knowledge of the LOCAL censor.

I suppose that even false teachings are published with episcopal Imprimatur.  There is that book on purgatory Read It or Rue It from the 1930s -with an Imprimatur and an enthusiastic Introduction from the Cardinal Archbishop of Lisbon.  It was true in its day, and in fact it would have comprised part of the infallible teaching of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium (all the bishops would have agreed with it.)   But now, 80 years later with the revamping of purgatorial doctrines.....

You cannot back up your assertion that all bishops would have agreed with each and every assertion in that book as formal teaching of the Catholic Church.  They MIGHT have agreed that it was a pastorally useful text, since many bishops, then and now, think the laity are about as dumb as sheep and need to be frightened into obedience... but even that assertion is nothing but an assertion..  I have that old text btw.

I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

As I have mentioned, in the past before doctrines began to be recast, the teaching of Limbo and the fire of purgatory were seen as such.



The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I will talk to you about the ordinary magisterium through those who are authorized to speak of it publicly but I am not going to participate in a "list hunt"....

There has been no recasting of doctrine as you call it. 

There is development of doctrine as the Church understands it but I doubt that you or Al Misry would give it more than a few paragraphs before the cut and paste and maps would come out.

Sorry but I don't have the interior energy for all that.  If I see a place where I might contribute to making the teaching of my Church more clear, I'll do that.

M.

Mary,  I am not asking for lists.

I an saying that there must surely be one or two examples you can provide  of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium functioning.   Or has it never actually ever functioned but it remains a theoretical concept?

But then why would the priest from whom I made enquiry have given the examples of Limbo and the fire of Purgatory?   He knew what my question concerned.  I think that Catholics on the forum are not familiar with the workings of the Magisterium in it various manifestations.



Here is a good place to begin for people who are somewhat in the dark:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/general-magisterium.htm

I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par with one another in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 09:34:04 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #141 on: December 03, 2011, 09:24:06 PM »


Not nearly as embarrassing as the Eastern Orthodox or Pseudo-Catholics who say outlandish things like that the Nihil Obstats and Imprimaturs are issued by the magisterium, although of course you don't recall that because you conveniently turned a blind eye to those things.
That's how Fr. A rolls.

Please do not tell fibs about the clergy.  I am sure it'll heat up those purgatorial fires for you.

Maybe we should conduct the discussion of magisterial teaching in a different [less polluted] thread. 

I did whack you about the knees with a stick, on this question, so I am willing to put some effort into the discussion but I have limited time and hate it when these threads turn into the inside of a used barf bag.

Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #142 on: December 03, 2011, 09:29:10 PM »

..... because we raise points that are never refuted nor addressed. For example, many of the loudmouths on this forum DO NOT understand what nihil obstats and imprimaturs are,

Well, it’s true that Catholics have shown their confusion on this matter.  You yourself are a bit confused:


Indeed you are, Father.  Both the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, the first issued by the local ordinary and the latter issued by the diocesan censor who is delegated by the bishop and can be ANYONE of that bishop's choosing, carry no real weight beyond the see of the local ordinary issuing the declaration and the release.  

So no matter what you say or anyone else says, the release to publish is predicated on the question of whether or not the text EXPLICITLY and PURPOSEFULLY does harm to the faith: which are the formal elements of heresy by the way: and it is a release that only bears any real weight within that bishops sphere of influence which is his local see.

It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.


I am not confused.  I never said what you seem to be accusing me of, viz.,  “It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.”  I’d be an idiot to make such an assertion.  Like Devin’s blog you appear to have a low opinion of us and give us little credit for knowing a few things.  Sad  The Nihil Obstast is a declaration that there is nothing contrary to the Roman Catholic faith.

That is imprecise: for someone who knows a few things.

The NO simply indicates that there are no formal heretical elements in the book that are intended to  draw the reader away from the Church.  In other words, there is nothing there that is formally heretical...to the best of the knowledge of the LOCAL censor.

I suppose that even false teachings are published with episcopal Imprimatur.  There is that book on purgatory Read It or Rue It from the 1930s -with an Imprimatur and an enthusiastic Introduction from the Cardinal Archbishop of Lisbon.  It was true in its day, and in fact it would have comprised part of the infallible teaching of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium (all the bishops would have agreed with it.)   But now, 80 years later with the revamping of purgatorial doctrines.....

You cannot back up your assertion that all bishops would have agreed with each and every assertion in that book as formal teaching of the Catholic Church.  They MIGHT have agreed that it was a pastorally useful text, since many bishops, then and now, think the laity are about as dumb as sheep and need to be frightened into obedience... but even that assertion is nothing but an assertion..  I have that old text btw.

I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

As I have mentioned, in the past before doctrines began to be recast, the teaching of Limbo and the fire of purgatory were seen as such.



The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I will talk to you about the ordinary magisterium through those who are authorized to speak of it publicly but I am not going to participate in a "list hunt"....

There has been no recasting of doctrine as you call it.  

There is development of doctrine as the Church understands it but I doubt that you or Al Misry would give it more than a few paragraphs before the cut and paste and maps would come out.

Sorry but I don't have the interior energy for all that.  If I see a place where I might contribute to making the teaching of my Church more clear, I'll do that.

M.

Mary,  I am not asking for lists.

I an saying that there must surely be one or two examples you can provide  of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium functioning.   Or has it never actually ever functioned but it remains a theoretical concept?

But then why would the priest from whom I made enquiry have given the examples of Limbo and the fire of Purgatory?   He knew what my question concerned.  I think that Catholics on the forum are not familiar with the workings of the Magisterium in it various manifestations.



Here is a good place to begin for people who are somewhat in the dark:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/general-magisterium.htm

I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.

Hey, you beat me to it  Wink!

Here's a couple more sources to check out: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm, and The Catechism of the Catholic Church,  #77, 85-87, 95, 888-92, 2032-2035.

I'd elaborate more, but gotta go watch Wisconsin beat up Michigan State so they can go to the Rose Bowl and lose to my beloved Quack Attack (University of Oregon Ducks)  Grin Grin!

(Sincere apologies for the lack of pretty pictures and maps  Roll Eyes)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 09:30:13 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,129


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #143 on: December 03, 2011, 09:33:40 PM »


Not nearly as embarrassing as the Eastern Orthodox or Pseudo-Catholics who say outlandish things like that the Nihil Obstats and Imprimaturs are issued by the magisterium, although of course you don't recall that because you conveniently turned a blind eye to those things.
That's how Fr. A rolls.

Please do not tell fibs about the clergy.  I am sure it'll heat up those purgatorial fires for you.
I never lie about the clergy.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,129


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #144 on: December 03, 2011, 09:36:00 PM »

..... because we raise points that are never refuted nor addressed. For example, many of the loudmouths on this forum DO NOT understand what nihil obstats and imprimaturs are,

Well, it’s true that Catholics have shown their confusion on this matter.  You yourself are a bit confused:


Indeed you are, Father.  Both the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, the first issued by the local ordinary and the latter issued by the diocesan censor who is delegated by the bishop and can be ANYONE of that bishop's choosing, carry no real weight beyond the see of the local ordinary issuing the declaration and the release.  

So no matter what you say or anyone else says, the release to publish is predicated on the question of whether or not the text EXPLICITLY and PURPOSEFULLY does harm to the faith: which are the formal elements of heresy by the way: and it is a release that only bears any real weight within that bishops sphere of influence which is his local see.

It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.


I am not confused.  I never said what you seem to be accusing me of, viz.,  “It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.”  I’d be an idiot to make such an assertion.  Like Devin’s blog you appear to have a low opinion of us and give us little credit for knowing a few things.  Sad  The Nihil Obstast is a declaration that there is nothing contrary to the Roman Catholic faith.

That is imprecise: for someone who knows a few things.

The NO simply indicates that there are no formal heretical elements in the book that are intended to  draw the reader away from the Church.  In other words, there is nothing there that is formally heretical...to the best of the knowledge of the LOCAL censor.

I suppose that even false teachings are published with episcopal Imprimatur.  There is that book on purgatory Read It or Rue It from the 1930s -with an Imprimatur and an enthusiastic Introduction from the Cardinal Archbishop of Lisbon.  It was true in its day, and in fact it would have comprised part of the infallible teaching of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium (all the bishops would have agreed with it.)   But now, 80 years later with the revamping of purgatorial doctrines.....

You cannot back up your assertion that all bishops would have agreed with each and every assertion in that book as formal teaching of the Catholic Church.  They MIGHT have agreed that it was a pastorally useful text, since many bishops, then and now, think the laity are about as dumb as sheep and need to be frightened into obedience... but even that assertion is nothing but an assertion..  I have that old text btw.

I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

As I have mentioned, in the past before doctrines began to be recast, the teaching of Limbo and the fire of purgatory were seen as such.



The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I will talk to you about the ordinary magisterium through those who are authorized to speak of it publicly but I am not going to participate in a "list hunt"....

There has been no recasting of doctrine as you call it.  

There is development of doctrine as the Church understands it but I doubt that you or Al Misry would give it more than a few paragraphs before the cut and paste and maps would come out.

Sorry but I don't have the interior energy for all that.  If I see a place where I might contribute to making the teaching of my Church more clear, I'll do that.

M.

Mary,  I am not asking for lists.

I an saying that there must surely be one or two examples you can provide  of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium functioning.   Or has it never actually ever functioned but it remains a theoretical concept?

But then why would the priest from whom I made enquiry have given the examples of Limbo and the fire of Purgatory?   He knew what my question concerned.  I think that Catholics on the forum are not familiar with the workings of the Magisterium in it various manifestations.



Here is a good place to begin for people who are somewhat in the dark:

http://www.catholicplanet.com/TSM/general-magisterium.htm

I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.

Hey, you beat me to it  Wink!

Here's a couple more sources to check out: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm, and The Catechism of the Catholic Church,  #77, 85-87, 95, 888-92, 2032-2035.

I'd elaborate more, but gotta go watch Wisconsin beat up Michigan State so they can go to the Rose Bowl and lose to my beloved Quack Attack (University of Oregon Ducks)  Grin Grin!

(Sincere apologies for the lack of pretty pictures and maps  Roll Eyes)
I got a map of purgatory here, in true Izzy style:    Grin Grin Grin

Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #145 on: December 03, 2011, 09:37:19 PM »

moving to a fresher and more appropriately titled thread
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 09:51:43 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,015


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #146 on: December 03, 2011, 09:48:31 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."


This thread certainly presents no evidence of the existence of any such 'mature people'. Surely the Devil himself chuckles while we continue our endless, petty bickering.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #147 on: December 03, 2011, 10:18:15 PM »

..... because we raise points that are never refuted nor addressed. For example, many of the loudmouths on this forum DO NOT understand what nihil obstats and imprimaturs are,

Well, it’s true that Catholics have shown their confusion on this matter.  You yourself are a bit confused:


Indeed you are, Father.  Both the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, the first issued by the local ordinary and the latter issued by the diocesan censor who is delegated by the bishop and can be ANYONE of that bishop's choosing, carry no real weight beyond the see of the local ordinary issuing the declaration and the release.  

So no matter what you say or anyone else says, the release to publish is predicated on the question of whether or not the text EXPLICITLY and PURPOSEFULLY does harm to the faith: which are the formal elements of heresy by the way: and it is a release that only bears any real weight within that bishops sphere of influence which is his local see.

It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.


I am not confused.  I never said what you seem to be accusing me of, viz.,  “It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.”  I’d be an idiot to make such an assertion.  Like Devin’s blog you appear to have a low opinion of us and give us little credit for knowing a few things.  Sad  The Nihil Obstast is a declaration that there is nothing contrary to the Roman Catholic faith.

That is imprecise: for someone who knows a few things.

The NO simply indicates that there are no formal heretical elements in the book that are intended to  draw the reader away from the Church.  In other words, there is nothing there that is formally heretical...to the best of the knowledge of the LOCAL censor.

I suppose that even false teachings are published with episcopal Imprimatur.  There is that book on purgatory Read It or Rue It from the 1930s -with an Imprimatur and an enthusiastic Introduction from the Cardinal Archbishop of Lisbon.  It was true in its day, and in fact it would have comprised part of the infallible teaching of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium (all the bishops would have agreed with it.)   But now, 80 years later with the revamping of purgatorial doctrines.....

You cannot back up your assertion that all bishops would have agreed with each and every assertion in that book as formal teaching of the Catholic Church.  They MIGHT have agreed that it was a pastorally useful text, since many bishops, then and now, think the laity are about as dumb as sheep and need to be frightened into obedience... but even that assertion is nothing but an assertion..  I have that old text btw.

I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

As I have mentioned, in the past before doctrines began to be recast, the teaching of Limbo and the fire of purgatory were seen as such.



The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I will talk to you about the ordinary magisterium through those who are authorized to speak of it publicly but I am not going to participate in a "list hunt"....

There has been no recasting of doctrine as you call it.  

There is development of doctrine as the Church understands it but I doubt that you or Al Misry would give it more than a few paragraphs before the cut and paste and maps would come out.

Not my fault nor my credit that our side enjoys an overabundence of evidence.  Just sharing the wealth.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 10:21:46 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #148 on: December 03, 2011, 10:24:51 PM »


I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par with one another in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.


A friend, yes.  But also the Diocesan Theologian.  His words carry a certain weight.

He was not speaking of purgatory but of the fire of purgatory as something material.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #149 on: December 03, 2011, 10:26:15 PM »

Why do you still post on this forum?
What an odd question. Why do you?
Posing a question as an answer to my question is not an answer. How about you answer the question, honestly. Then I will answer yours.

Quote
Are you sure about that?
None of your 1900+ posts indicate any interest into Orthodoxy. Do I really need to fine comb your posts?

Quote
Mine rests on Christ and His Church.
And so does mine. However the head of My Church is Christ, I can't say the same for yours.

Quote
Your faith is like a Chevy truck?
Built Ford tough.

Quote
I'm glad he has your seal of approval, oh mighty pseudo-moderator.
Unlike you, Stanely answered the question.

Quote
iluming?
illuminating. But if your excuse for an argument is to parse out spelling errors I won't have any of it.

Quote
Our issues have been refuted? Really? When did that happen? Quotes?
Try the head of the Church. Or papal infallibility. Or ex cathedra. Or papal primacy. Etc. There's plenty of it, it's not my fault you are too blind to see it. Maybe you can see but refuse to acknowledge the truth. I think that's the core problem.

Quote
Yes...and he had about as much of a point as you do. Wink
Well when you are responding to a post that had no point in the first place its hard to really make it into one.
 You are on post moderation for 40 days for bickering and personal attacks against each other.  It is absurd and will not be tolerated.  This is to be a place for good discussion and learning not schoolyard bickering.  Please use this time to cool down and remember each post will be reviewed the moderator team before we either let it be posted or not.  If you feel you have not been bickering, stepping over the boundaries of general decency on this forum then please feel free to contact our administrative staff, Fr. Chris.   -username! Orthodox Catholic Moderator
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #150 on: December 03, 2011, 10:27:58 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."


This thread certainly presents no evidence of the existence of any such 'mature people'. Surely the Devil himself chuckles while we continue our endless, petty bickering.


Well, I am asking for information on some Catholic matters which interest me but I get fobbed off by people introducing a tone of personal bickering.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #151 on: December 03, 2011, 10:31:21 PM »


I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par with one another in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.


A friend, yes.  But also the Diocesan Theologian.  His words carry a certain weight.

He was not speaking of purgatory but of the fire of purgatory as something material.

This is not what is described and understood as magisterial teaching that is of the faith and infallible, regardless of the source.  These are pastoral teachings that are open to discussion and to change over time.
Logged

podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,015


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #152 on: December 03, 2011, 10:34:42 PM »


I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par with one another in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.


A friend, yes.  But also the Diocesan Theologian.  His words carry a certain weight.

He was not speaking of purgatory but of the fire of purgatory as something material.

This is not what is described and understood as magisterial teaching that is of the faith and infallible, regardless of the source.  These are pastoral teachings that are open to discussion and to change over time.

For the sake of argument, would you define these 'pastoral teachings' as being somewhat analogous to what Orthodox would define as "theologoumena?"
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #153 on: December 03, 2011, 10:39:15 PM »


I cannot answer your question about why a friend of your's told you that Limbo and Purgatory are "examples" of magisterial teaching.  Limbo and Purgatory have never been on a par with one another in terms of systematic and formal doctrinal teaching.


A friend, yes.  But also the Diocesan Theologian.  His words carry a certain weight.

He was not speaking of purgatory but of the fire of purgatory as something material.

This is not what is described and understood as magisterial teaching that is of the faith and infallible, regardless of the source.  These are pastoral teachings that are open to discussion and to change over time.

For the sake of argument, would you define these 'pastoral teachings' as being somewhat analogous to what Orthodox would define as "theologoumena?"

They are.  They are representative of a deeper spiritual and theological truth that is irreformable, but in themselves they are not irreformable.  I do not have the time to search documents that I've read over the years but there certainly are examples of saints and theological and spiritual writers who speak of the fires of purgation as analogous means of referring to the burning pain of being without our Lord.  These writings long pre-date the Second Vatican Council, and some of them pre-date Trent.

M.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 10:40:43 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #154 on: December 03, 2011, 11:14:21 PM »

Why do you still post on this forum?
What an odd question. Why do you?
Posing a question as an answer to my question is not an answer. How about you answer the question, honestly. Then I will answer yours.
Since I don't know you and have no reason to trust you, I think the discussion on what my or your intentions on the forum are will stop here.

Quote
Are you sure about that?
None of your 1900+ posts indicate any interest into Orthodoxy. Do I really need to fine comb your posts?
You know this how?

Quote
Mine rests on Christ and His Church.
And so does mine. However the head of My Church is Christ, I can't say the same for yours.
Mine is Christ, and I'm still in communion with the rock that Christ Himself appointed to shepherd His Church until the day that He returns in glory.

Quote
Your faith is like a Chevy truck?
Built Ford tough.
Wrong answer. Jesus prefers Chryslers.

Quote
I'm glad he has your seal of approval, oh mighty pseudo-moderator.
Unlike you, Stanely answered the question.
If I owed you an explanation I would give you one.

Quote
iluming?
illuminating. But if your excuse for an argument is to parse out spelling errors I won't have any of it.
K.

Quote
Our issues have been refuted? Really? When did that happen? Quotes?
Try the head of the Church. Or papal infallibility. Or ex cathedra. Or papal primacy. Etc. There's plenty of it, it's not my fault you are too blind to see it. Maybe you can see but refuse to acknowledge the truth. I think that's the core problem.
Those things are all sound, orthodox teachings. It's not my fault that you are too blind to see it.

Quote
Yes...and he had about as much of a point as you do. Wink
Well when you are responding to a post that had no point in the first place its hard to really make it into one.
Your point, I realize, is that since I don't kiss the schismatic ring of rebel bishops that I have no place here. You're wrong.
 You are being placed on post moderation for 40 days for bickering and personal attacks between yourself and other posters.  Sit back, calm down and stop fighting on oc.net please.  I have given several public warnings and official warnings as of late for this issue, I am not tolerating it any longer.  Every post has to be reviewed by the moderator team for approval for 40 days.  If you feel you have not been bickering and being trivial in your posts please feel free to contact Fr Chris, our administrator -username! Orthodox Catholic moderator
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 11:14:48 PM by Wyatt » Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #155 on: December 03, 2011, 11:49:19 PM »

So still no answer Wyatt? Honestly I think Fr. Anastasios deserves one.

The purpose of this forum (named "OrthodoxChristianity.net") is to convert people to Orthodoxy.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38675.msg629458.html#msg629458

Again dialouging with you and a few other RC members here hasn't been about conversion to Orthodoxy. Again why are you here?

You are not the moderator of this forum nor any other forum on oc.net.  Please be mindful, I have asked you before to do so of other people. -username! Orthodox-Catholic moderator
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 01:08:54 PM by username! » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #156 on: December 04, 2011, 12:08:55 AM »

Bickering Watch . The OC.net Moderatorial Service has declared a Bickering Watch for this thread. Conditions are right for the formation of a stream of bickering, pointlessly reviewing the same topics ad nauseum that have derailed and poisoned past threads. Repeat, there is a Bickering Watch over this thread; any posters interested in actually learning anything are advised to stay away from this potential bickering activity and seek refuge in polite discourse within the topics originally presented in this thread." username section moderator



Bickering will not be tolerated.  Any further bickering in this thread and those responsible will be given appropriate moderator action -username! orthodox-catholic moderator
Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #157 on: December 04, 2011, 12:59:09 AM »

Again why are you here?
I was and am interested in the Eastern Orthodox Church. As a Catholic I believe it is a true Church of Apostolic origin. I am just disappointed at the way in which our Church is presented by some on the forum who clearly have an agenda.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #158 on: December 04, 2011, 02:07:18 AM »

Again why are you here?
I was and am interested in the Eastern Orthodox Church. As a Catholic I believe it is a true Church of Apostolic origin.
See that wasn't too hard.

Quote
I am just disappointed at the way in which our Church is presented by some on the forum who clearly have an agenda.
What agenda? IIRC Isa is about as conservative as they come.

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.

Maybe if we discussed more about your issues with the Orthodox Church and Orthodoxy itself we can get into some fruitful discussion and end the bickering.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #159 on: December 04, 2011, 12:33:41 PM »

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.
Not only do I remember you quoting it, but I remember when Fr. Anastasios said it. However, even though that may be the overall purpose of the forum, this is still the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section. If the creators of this site and forum members wish to have discussion with us, fine. However, discussion should be as open and honest as possible. We are not just going to sit back and do nothing while our Church is slandered. The fact that you think such a thing is no big deal is quite telling. Do the Eastern Orthodox members on here value truth or don't they?
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #160 on: December 04, 2011, 03:17:15 PM »

Again why are you here?
I was and am interested in the Eastern Orthodox Church. As a Catholic I believe it is a true Church of Apostolic origin.
See that wasn't too hard.

Quote
I am just disappointed at the way in which our Church is presented by some on the forum who clearly have an agenda.
What agenda? IIRC Isa is about as conservative as they come.

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.

Maybe if we discussed more about your issues with the Orthodox Church and Orthodoxy itself we can get into some fruitful discussion and end the bickering.

To address one of your comments:  If a person's heart and mind in Orthodoxy are soured against the Catholic Church because of misinformation and misunderstanding, I would think that it would be very important to come to a better understanding of the truth. 

I don't know any of us who are active here who are hoping to turn people away from Orthodoxy.  I believe that we are more interested in being able to engage a better and more spiritually fruitful dialogue.

As to your last point, I don't know if any of us have "issues" with Orthodoxy, except for those cases where Orthodox faithful or spiritual writers and theologians badly re-present Catholic teaching.

M.
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,129


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #161 on: December 04, 2011, 08:04:37 PM »

Again why are you here?
I was and am interested in the Eastern Orthodox Church. As a Catholic I believe it is a true Church of Apostolic origin.
See that wasn't too hard.

Quote
I am just disappointed at the way in which our Church is presented by some on the forum who clearly have an agenda.
What agenda? IIRC Isa is about as conservative as they come.

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.

Maybe if we discussed more about your issues with the Orthodox Church and Orthodoxy itself we can get into some fruitful discussion and end the bickering.

To address one of your comments:  If a person's heart and mind in Orthodoxy are soured against the Catholic Church because of misinformation and misunderstanding, I would think that it would be very important to come to a better understanding of the truth. 

I don't know any of us who are active here who are hoping to turn people away from Orthodoxy.  I believe that we are more interested in being able to engage a better and more spiritually fruitful dialogue.

As to your last point, I don't know if any of us have "issues" with Orthodoxy, except for those cases where Orthodox faithful or spiritual writers and theologians badly re-present Catholic teaching.

M.
A great post Maria. I am not here because I have any intention of converting any EOs to the Catholic Church.I'm not here because I have some problem with Eastern Orthodoxy. In fact, there are many things about Eastern Orthodoxy that I truly respect and appreciate. I'm here because the discussion is often interesting and engaging. Most of the EO posters are charitable and fantastic folks who address these issues in truth and love. However, I am also here because of the likes of certain radical anti-Catholic posters who do whatever they can to distort the teachings of the Catholic Church. A great example of this is the thread on Natural Law where a couple of EO posters pruposely misrepresent Natural Law theory.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #162 on: December 04, 2011, 08:34:18 PM »

Funny how the doctrines and stances that the Orthodox disagree with are so prone to misunderstanding, isn't it?
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #163 on: December 04, 2011, 08:42:39 PM »

Funny how the doctrines and stances that the Orthodox disagree with are so prone to misunderstanding, isn't it?

I don't find it funny at all. 

What I find interesting is that you can find Orthodox clergy and bishops and others who think that there has been a great deal of missed understandings over the centuries and that we are much closer in terms of theology and doctrine than many might surmise.

Where the difficulty is, they tend to think, is in the liturgies, and practices such as fasting and prayer disciplines among the laity, and iconography, etc.  These are the things that make it seem as though the east and west are very different.

And of course there is the huge hurdle concerning the meaning of immediate and ordinary jurisdiction on the part of the pope...what does it mean?  How would it work if there was a resumption of communion.

M.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 08:43:21 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #164 on: December 04, 2011, 09:32:25 PM »

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.
Not only do I remember you quoting it, but I remember when Fr. Anastasios said it. However, even though that may be the overall purpose of the forum, this is still the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section. If the creators of this site and forum members wish to have discussion with us, fine. However, discussion should be as open and honest as possible. We are not just going to sit back and do nothing while our Church is slandered. The fact that you think such a thing is no big deal is quite telling. Do the Eastern Orthodox members on here value truth or don't they?
Of course we do. That's why so many of us embraced Orthodoxy and sought reception into the Catholic Church.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,129


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #165 on: December 04, 2011, 09:34:56 PM »

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.
Not only do I remember you quoting it, but I remember when Fr. Anastasios said it. However, even though that may be the overall purpose of the forum, this is still the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section. If the creators of this site and forum members wish to have discussion with us, fine. However, discussion should be as open and honest as possible. We are not just going to sit back and do nothing while our Church is slandered. The fact that you think such a thing is no big deal is quite telling. Do the Eastern Orthodox members on here value truth or don't they?
Of course we do. That's why so many of us embraced Orthodoxy and sought reception into the Catholic Church.
Oh Izzy,  Roll Eyes Your post is just full of it.

Tags edited - MK
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 06:56:34 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #166 on: December 04, 2011, 09:37:38 PM »

Funny how the doctrines and stances that the Orthodox disagree with are so prone to misunderstanding, isn't it?
Yes. Makes you wonder how that happens. Roll Eyes
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #167 on: December 04, 2011, 09:39:37 PM »

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.
Not only do I remember you quoting it, but I remember when Fr. Anastasios said it. However, even though that may be the overall purpose of the forum, this is still the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section. If the creators of this site and forum members wish to have discussion with us, fine. However, discussion should be as open and honest as possible. We are not just going to sit back and do nothing while our Church is slandered. The fact that you think such a thing is no big deal is quite telling. Do the Eastern Orthodox members on here value truth or don't they?
Of course we do. That's why so many of us embraced Orthodoxy and sought reception into the Catholic Church.
Oh Izzy,  Roll Eyes
Who?
Your post is just full of it.
the plenitude of the Holy Spirit.  Nice you noticed.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,129


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #168 on: December 04, 2011, 09:41:21 PM »

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.
Not only do I remember you quoting it, but I remember when Fr. Anastasios said it. However, even though that may be the overall purpose of the forum, this is still the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section. If the creators of this site and forum members wish to have discussion with us, fine. However, discussion should be as open and honest as possible. We are not just going to sit back and do nothing while our Church is slandered. The fact that you think such a thing is no big deal is quite telling. Do the Eastern Orthodox members on here value truth or don't they?
Of course we do. That's why so many of us embraced Orthodoxy and sought reception into the Catholic Church.
Oh Izzy,  Roll Eyes
Who?
Your post is just full of it.
the plenitude of the Holy Spirit.  Nice you noticed.
Careful, you are creeping toward blasphemy.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #169 on: December 04, 2011, 10:46:05 PM »

Anyway remember when I posted the quote by Fr. Anastasios who said this forum was about conversion into the Orthodox Church and not about correcting errors Orthodox posters may have against your Church? If we have erred, what does it matter? It's not like you correcting those errors are going to change the heart and minds of the faithful Orthodox.
Not only do I remember you quoting it, but I remember when Fr. Anastasios said it. However, even though that may be the overall purpose of the forum, this is still the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section. If the creators of this site and forum members wish to have discussion with us, fine. However, discussion should be as open and honest as possible. We are not just going to sit back and do nothing while our Church is slandered. The fact that you think such a thing is no big deal is quite telling. Do the Eastern Orthodox members on here value truth or don't they?
Of course we do. That's why so many of us embraced Orthodoxy and sought reception into the Catholic Church.
Oh Izzy,  Roll Eyes
Who?
Your post is just full of it.
the plenitude of the Holy Spirit.  Nice you noticed.
Careful, you are creeping toward blasphemy.
Oh? Formal or material?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,532



« Reply #170 on: December 05, 2011, 01:42:50 AM »

Funny how the doctrines and stances that the Orthodox disagree with are so prone to misunderstanding, isn't it?
I guess St. Basil's remark that Latin is an imprecise language has rung true through the centuries. laugh
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #171 on: December 05, 2011, 03:32:48 AM »

..... because we raise points that are never refuted nor addressed. For example, many of the loudmouths on this forum DO NOT understand what nihil obstats and imprimaturs are,

Well, it’s true that Catholics have shown their confusion on this matter.  You yourself are a bit confused:


Indeed you are, Father.  Both the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat, the first issued by the local ordinary and the latter issued by the diocesan censor who is delegated by the bishop and can be ANYONE of that bishop's choosing, carry no real weight beyond the see of the local ordinary issuing the declaration and the release. 

So no matter what you say or anyone else says, the release to publish is predicated on the question of whether or not the text EXPLICITLY and PURPOSEFULLY does harm to the faith: which are the formal elements of heresy by the way: and it is a release that only bears any real weight within that bishops sphere of influence which is his local see.

It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.


I am not confused.  I never said what you seem to be accusing me of, viz.,  “It was NEVER meant, and is not meant to be a blanket statement that everything in the text is formally true and formally the teaching of the Church.”  I’d be an idiot to make such an assertion.  Like Devin’s blog you appear to have a low opinion of us and give us little credit for knowing a few things.  Sad  The Nihil Obstast is a declaration that there is nothing contrary to the Roman Catholic faith.

That is imprecise: for someone who knows a few things.

The NO simply indicates that there are no formal heretical elements in the book that are intended to  draw the reader away from the Church.  In other words, there is nothing there that is formally heretical...to the best of the knowledge of the LOCAL censor.

I suppose that even false teachings are published with episcopal Imprimatur.  There is that book on purgatory Read It or Rue It from the 1930s -with an Imprimatur and an enthusiastic Introduction from the Cardinal Archbishop of Lisbon.  It was true in its day, and in fact it would have comprised part of the infallible teaching of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium (all the bishops would have agreed with it.)   But now, 80 years later with the revamping of purgatorial doctrines.....

You cannot back up your assertion that all bishops would have agreed with each and every assertion in that book as formal teaching of the Catholic Church.  They MIGHT have agreed that it was a pastorally useful text, since many bishops, then and now, think the laity are about as dumb as sheep and need to be frightened into obedience... but even that assertion is nothing but an assertion..  I have that old text btw.

I wonder if you would illustrate for us the capability of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium to formulate infallible teaching, and this without the issuance of magisterial statements.

As I have mentioned, in the past before doctrines began to be recast, the teaching of Limbo and the fire of purgatory were seen as such.



The faith is not a set of lists, Father.   This "list hunt" that you and Al Misry seem to have initiated...as though it has meaning...is essentially meaningless.

I will talk to you about the ordinary magisterium through those who are authorized to speak of it publicly but I am not going to participate in a "list hunt"....

There has been no recasting of doctrine as you call it. 

There is development of doctrine as the Church understands it but I doubt that you or Al Misry would give it more than a few paragraphs before the cut and paste and maps would come out.

Sorry but I don't have the interior energy for all that.  If I see a place where I might contribute to making the teaching of my Church more clear, I'll do that.

M.

If it is OK with you I'll transfer this to the specific thread on the Universal Ordinary Magisterium.
Logged
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #172 on: December 05, 2011, 08:27:29 AM »

"Breakdowns in human relationships, heresy, and schism do not really spring from different beliefs and opinions... No, divisions come from pride, arrogance, or other sins; from our failure to accept, from our distrust, intolerance, and self-righteousness."

(Orthodox Theology and Diakonia: Trends and Prospects, Emilianos Timiadis, "The Ecumenical Movement and Orthodoxy" [Hellenic College Press, 1981] p.311)
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,015


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #173 on: December 05, 2011, 09:44:14 AM »

"Breakdowns in human relationships, heresy, and schism do not really spring from different beliefs and opinions... No, divisions come from pride, arrogance, or other sins; from our failure to accept, from our distrust, intolerance, and self-righteousness."

(Orthodox Theology and Diakonia: Trends and Prospects, Emilianos Timiadis, "The Ecumenical Movement and Orthodoxy" [Hellenic College Press, 1981] p.311)

It is no surprise to any regular reader here that I would find this quote consistent with my overall opinions on most subjects on this board.

In the final analysis, EM's post #163 contains a statement that is at the core of centuries of the mistrust and mutual, often intentional, misrepresentations of each other's beliefs that are at the heart of the east/west divide.

Frankly, this is the 'understatement' of all time:  "And of course there is the huge hurdle concerning the meaning of immediate and ordinary jurisdiction on the part of the pope...what does it mean?  How would it work if there was a resumption of communion."

Reading from the published works of the various ecumenical commissions and learned theologians of both Roman and Orthodox backgrounds,one can't help but come to the conclusion that this issue is where the dialogue bus comes to a dead stop.

As the OP reminds us, at least at the highest levels of the churches, our spiritual  leaders are engaged in cordial and fraternal exchanges of ideas and thought. It beats the alternative.
Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,011


« Reply #174 on: December 05, 2011, 11:14:52 AM »

From Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Fr Michael Pomazansky

Quote
Side by side with the straight, or right, path of faith there have always been those who thought differently (heterodoxountes, or "heterodox," in the expression of St. Ignatius the God-bearer), a world of greater or lesser errors among Christians, and sometimes even whole incorrect systems which attempted to burst into the midst of Orthodox Christians. As a result of the quest for truth there occurred divisions among Christians.

Becoming acquainted with the history of the Church, and likewise observing the contemporary world, we see that the errors which war against Orthodox Truth have appeared and do appear a) under the influence of other religions, b) under the influence of philosophy, and c) through the weakness and inclinations of fallen human nature, which seeks the rights and justifications of these weaknesses and inclinations.

Errors take root and become obstinate most frequently because of the pride of those who defend them, because of intellectual pride.

I'm not sure what Timiadis means, to be honest. Is he saying the "different beliefs and opinions" don't matter in themselves? If so, it seems dangerous to dismiss them like that. Of course, pride is the reason heretics remain obstinate in their false beliefs and opinions, and pride must be overcome for them to return to the Church. But in the end there are also real differences of belief, and we need to remember that among these differences there lie the true beliefs and the true opinions, set against all the false ones.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 11:16:00 AM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,015


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #175 on: December 05, 2011, 12:17:33 PM »

From Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Fr Michael Pomazansky

Quote
Side by side with the straight, or right, path of faith there have always been those who thought differently (heterodoxountes, or "heterodox," in the expression of St. Ignatius the God-bearer), a world of greater or lesser errors among Christians, and sometimes even whole incorrect systems which attempted to burst into the midst of Orthodox Christians. As a result of the quest for truth there occurred divisions among Christians.

Becoming acquainted with the history of the Church, and likewise observing the contemporary world, we see that the errors which war against Orthodox Truth have appeared and do appear a) under the influence of other religions, b) under the influence of philosophy, and c) through the weakness and inclinations of fallen human nature, which seeks the rights and justifications of these weaknesses and inclinations.

Errors take root and become obstinate most frequently because of the pride of those who defend them, because of intellectual pride.

I'm not sure what Timiadis means, to be honest. Is he saying the "different beliefs and opinions" don't matter in themselves? If so, it seems dangerous to dismiss them like that. Of course, pride is the reason heretics remain obstinate in their false beliefs and opinions, and pride must be overcome for them to return to the Church. But in the end there are also real differences of belief, and we need to remember that among these differences there lie the true beliefs and the true opinions, set against all the false ones.

While I am 'open-minded' to honest dialogue, I concur that 'different beliefs and opinions' DO matter.

From the Orthodox point of view however, we need to be on guard that our own justified pride in our historical defense of Orthodoxy does not blind us to the possibility of honest discussion and potential reunification with others. Pride is a most dangerous sin as it allows humans to construct barriers to the recognition of truth.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 12:17:56 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,011


« Reply #176 on: December 05, 2011, 12:55:56 PM »

From Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Fr Michael Pomazansky

Quote
Side by side with the straight, or right, path of faith there have always been those who thought differently (heterodoxountes, or "heterodox," in the expression of St. Ignatius the God-bearer), a world of greater or lesser errors among Christians, and sometimes even whole incorrect systems which attempted to burst into the midst of Orthodox Christians. As a result of the quest for truth there occurred divisions among Christians.

Becoming acquainted with the history of the Church, and likewise observing the contemporary world, we see that the errors which war against Orthodox Truth have appeared and do appear a) under the influence of other religions, b) under the influence of philosophy, and c) through the weakness and inclinations of fallen human nature, which seeks the rights and justifications of these weaknesses and inclinations.

Errors take root and become obstinate most frequently because of the pride of those who defend them, because of intellectual pride.

I'm not sure what Timiadis means, to be honest. Is he saying the "different beliefs and opinions" don't matter in themselves? If so, it seems dangerous to dismiss them like that. Of course, pride is the reason heretics remain obstinate in their false beliefs and opinions, and pride must be overcome for them to return to the Church. But in the end there are also real differences of belief, and we need to remember that among these differences there lie the true beliefs and the true opinions, set against all the false ones.

While I am 'open-minded' to honest dialogue, I concur that 'different beliefs and opinions' DO matter.

From the Orthodox point of view however, we need to be on guard that our own justified pride in our historical defense of Orthodoxy does not blind us to the possibility of honest discussion and potential reunification with others. Pride is a most dangerous sin as it allows humans to construct barriers to the recognition of truth.

I guess then we need to define "honest dialog". I wouldn't say that the current ecumenical dialogs taking place are "honest", for example, because they presuppose that heterodox groups are in some sense part of the Church, which is not an Orthodox presupposition. Otherwise, if the heterodox are understood to be completely outside the Church, why are they permitted to participate in Orthodox services when they don't show any intention of converting to the true faith? For evidence of this kind of occurrence, you can watch the video I posted earlier (and other videos are available if you're interested).

Honest, irenical dialog of the kind I think you're hoping for is exemplified by the many cases of correspondence between the Orthodox and the heterodox when the latter have inquired about what the Orthodox believe. For example, there is the correspondence between Patriarch Jeremias and the Lutherans in the 16th century. No unwarranted attacks were made on the Lutherans, but when it became clear the Protestants had no intention of accepting Orthodoxy, the correspondence quietly ended. There was never any statement made about the "common mission" or "calling" of the Lutherans and the Orthodox, precisely because there is no common mission between the heterodox and the Orthodox. The mission of the heterodox is diametrically opposed to the mission of the Orthodox.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #177 on: December 05, 2011, 01:04:29 PM »


Honest, irenical dialog of the kind I think you're hoping for is exemplified by the many cases of correspondence between the Orthodox and the heterodox when the latter have inquired about what the Orthodox believe. For example, there is the correspondence between Patriarch Jeremias and the Lutherans in the 16th century. No unwarranted attacks were made on the Lutherans, but when it became clear the Protestants had no intention of accepting Orthodoxy, the correspondence quietly ended. There was never any statement made about the "common mission" or "calling" of the Lutherans and the Orthodox, precisely because there is no common mission between the heterodox and the Orthodox. The mission of the heterodox is diametrically opposed to the mission of the Orthodox.

Fortunately this attitude does not reach to the highest levels in Orthodox hierarchies and the bi-lateral Orthodox/Catholic discussions continue apace.

M.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 01:06:45 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,011


« Reply #178 on: December 05, 2011, 01:15:07 PM »


Honest, irenical dialog of the kind I think you're hoping for is exemplified by the many cases of correspondence between the Orthodox and the heterodox when the latter have inquired about what the Orthodox believe. For example, there is the correspondence between Patriarch Jeremias and the Lutherans in the 16th century. No unwarranted attacks were made on the Lutherans, but when it became clear the Protestants had no intention of accepting Orthodoxy, the correspondence quietly ended. There was never any statement made about the "common mission" or "calling" of the Lutherans and the Orthodox, precisely because there is no common mission between the heterodox and the Orthodox. The mission of the heterodox is diametrically opposed to the mission of the Orthodox.

Fortunately this attitude does not reach to the highest levels in Orthodox hierarchies and the bi-lateral Orthodox/Catholic discussions continue apace.

M.

Your "fortunately" is my "unfortunately".
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #179 on: December 05, 2011, 01:22:17 PM »


Honest, irenical dialog of the kind I think you're hoping for is exemplified by the many cases of correspondence between the Orthodox and the heterodox when the latter have inquired about what the Orthodox believe. For example, there is the correspondence between Patriarch Jeremias and the Lutherans in the 16th century. No unwarranted attacks were made on the Lutherans, but when it became clear the Protestants had no intention of accepting Orthodoxy, the correspondence quietly ended. There was never any statement made about the "common mission" or "calling" of the Lutherans and the Orthodox, precisely because there is no common mission between the heterodox and the Orthodox. The mission of the heterodox is diametrically opposed to the mission of the Orthodox.

Fortunately this attitude does not reach to the highest levels in Orthodox hierarchies and the bi-lateral Orthodox/Catholic discussions continue apace.

M.

Your "fortunately" is my "unfortunately".

And that, Jonathan, makes me very very sad.

Should we ever resume communion, I will pray that your heart and soul are at peace even if you are not in full agreement with the eventual outcome.

M.
Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.237 seconds with 74 queries.