OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 01:53:32 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Pope Benedict to Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew  (Read 6903 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,654


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #225 on: December 06, 2011, 10:10:38 PM »

Um... this is just a guess on my part, but I don't think anyone wants to eliminate a church in which they are a deacon.  Wink
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #226 on: December 06, 2011, 10:11:21 PM »

Let there be an end to these fruitless, unneccessary, and wasteful (of time, energy, and money) meetings.  Let us agree to disagree and get on with following Christ in our own ways.

I disagree with you whole-heartedly!

Communion is not something automatic.

It must be worked for, forged out of our shared life in Christ, and then maintained.

If you don't think so: take a good long look at Orthodox jurisdictions and the Catholic Church in various parts of the world, particularly where the parish churches are near empty.

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all.  

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply.  

I agree.  But both side have to come to the table in good faith.  Many of the Orthodox Churches are only participating in the hope to eradicate the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by Metropolitan Hilarion's demand to revisit the "problem of the Unia".

You make it sound as if eradication is a bad thing? It's obviously a major issue/problem/concern in Eastern Europe and so it should be revisited!

If there is going to be talks between the two communions then this issue must be put on the table!

If eradication were a good thing, more eastern Catholics would now be Orthodox.
Logged

podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,018


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #227 on: December 06, 2011, 10:42:00 PM »

Let there be an end to these fruitless, unneccessary, and wasteful (of time, energy, and money) meetings.  Let us agree to disagree and get on with following Christ in our own ways.

I disagree with you whole-heartedly!

Communion is not something automatic.

It must be worked for, forged out of our shared life in Christ, and then maintained.

If you don't think so: take a good long look at Orthodox jurisdictions and the Catholic Church in various parts of the world, particularly where the parish churches are near empty.

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all.  

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply.  

I agree.  But both side have to come to the table in good faith.  Many of the Orthodox Churches are only participating in the hope to eradicate the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by Metropolitan Hilarion's demand to revisit the "problem of the Unia".

You make it sound as if eradication is a bad thing? It's obviously a major issue/problem/concern in Eastern Europe and so it should be revisited!

If there is going to be talks between the two communions then this issue must be put on the table!

It is really easy for some of you to speak so boldly in terms of 'eradication' etc... I hope to end my input after one final observation here. (provided that I can resist the urge to restate my position endlessly like many here.....)

Unless you have 'walked the walk' with respect to the situation between and among Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics in various regions across the world, speaking of 'eradication' is foolhardy and speaks to a lack of understanding of the complex realities of the relationship. 'Uniatism' has never really been faced by either the Greek or the Russian clergy or hierarchy in their homelands. As Augustin and others have pointed out here the relationship between the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics in areas where they do have to live with each other is complicated and not always what meets the eye or fits neatly into one's myopic pigeonhole (whether the myopia is in the eye of one who is Orthodox or one who is Roman Catholic for that matter.)

One final note: If we, as  Orthodox Christians, were to read a line on a Catholic blog or discussion board in which a poster spoke of the 'eradication' of the Orthodox as a condition to 'rejoining' the Church of Rome, this board would light up with outrage and hysteria. Like I said earlier, many Christians prefer the circular firing squad when it comes to 'discussing' issues of faith with others.

Another 'duh' - in the unlikely future event of a 'reunion' between east and west which would be accepted by the Church, the issue of 'Uniatism' would be moot, would it not?

« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 10:58:41 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #228 on: December 06, 2011, 11:04:42 PM »

Um... this is just a guess on my part, but I don't think anyone wants to eliminate a church in which they are a deacon.  Wink

Yes, I guess that would be a problem. But he needs to understand why we see their existence as a problem. Especially if we are going to have talks with Rome. For what will their(eastern catholics) purpose be? That issue shouldn't be ignored. It should be talked about.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 11:27:41 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,654


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #229 on: December 06, 2011, 11:06:20 PM »

Question: not that I anticipate this happening anytime soon, but can someone who was a deacon in one church become a deacon in another?
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #230 on: December 06, 2011, 11:08:27 PM »

Let there be an end to these fruitless, unneccessary, and wasteful (of time, energy, and money) meetings.  Let us agree to disagree and get on with following Christ in our own ways.

I disagree with you whole-heartedly!

Communion is not something automatic.

It must be worked for, forged out of our shared life in Christ, and then maintained.

If you don't think so: take a good long look at Orthodox jurisdictions and the Catholic Church in various parts of the world, particularly where the parish churches are near empty.

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all.  

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply.  

I agree.  But both side have to come to the table in good faith.  Many of the Orthodox Churches are only participating in the hope to eradicate the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by Metropolitan Hilarion's demand to revisit the "problem of the Unia".

You make it sound as if eradication is a bad thing? It's obviously a major issue/problem/concern in Eastern Europe and so it should be revisited!

If there is going to be talks between the two communions then this issue must be put on the table!

If eradication were a good thing, more eastern Catholics would now be Orthodox.

If the two communions are going to talk then this issue has to be addressed. I mean, it's the pink elephant in the room! Isn't it?
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #231 on: December 06, 2011, 11:10:24 PM »

Question: not that I anticipate this happening anytime soon, but can someone who was a deacon in one church become a deacon in another?

It happens all the time (figure of speech, meaning......don't take the statement super literally, but yes, it happens)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 11:11:27 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,654


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #232 on: December 06, 2011, 11:11:23 PM »

Okay, thanks.

 Smiley
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #233 on: December 06, 2011, 11:23:26 PM »

Let there be an end to these fruitless, unneccessary, and wasteful (of time, energy, and money) meetings.  Let us agree to disagree and get on with following Christ in our own ways.

I disagree with you whole-heartedly!

Communion is not something automatic.

It must be worked for, forged out of our shared life in Christ, and then maintained.

If you don't think so: take a good long look at Orthodox jurisdictions and the Catholic Church in various parts of the world, particularly where the parish churches are near empty.

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all.  

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply.  

I agree.  But both side have to come to the table in good faith.  Many of the Orthodox Churches are only participating in the hope to eradicate the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by Metropolitan Hilarion's demand to revisit the "problem of the Unia".

You make it sound as if eradication is a bad thing? It's obviously a major issue/problem/concern in Eastern Europe and so it should be revisited!

If there is going to be talks between the two communions then this issue must be put on the table!

It is really easy for some of you to speak so boldly in terms of 'eradication' etc... I hope to end my input after one final observation here. (provided that I can resist the urge to restate my position endlessly like many here.....)

Unless you have 'walked the walk' with respect to the situation between and among Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics in various regions across the world, speaking of 'eradication' is foolhardy and speaks to a lack of understanding of the complex realities of the relationship. 'Uniatism' has never really been faced by either the Greek or the Russian clergy or hierarchy in their homelands. As Augustin and others have pointed out here the relationship between the Orthodox and the Eastern Catholics in areas where they do have to live with each other is complicated and not always what meets the eye or fits neatly into one's myopic pigeonhole (whether the myopia is in the eye of one who is Orthodox or one who is Roman Catholic for that matter.)

One final note: If we, as  Orthodox Christians, were to read a line on a Catholic blog or discussion board in which a poster spoke of the 'eradication' of the Orthodox as a condition to 'rejoining' the Church of Rome, this board would light up with outrage and hysteria. Like I said earlier, many Christians prefer the circular firing squad when it comes to 'discussing' issues of faith with others.

Another 'duh' - in the unlikely future event of a 'reunion' between east and west which would be accepted by the Church, the issue of 'Uniatism' would be moot, would it not?

If they still existed even then then why would it be mute? Also, what about our western rites? These things should be talked about. Now maybe the word eradication was too rude. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but Deacon Lance used the word first. So I used it. However, at the end of the day these issues shouldn't be ignored.

Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,654


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #234 on: December 06, 2011, 11:25:46 PM »

I suppose there's nothing they couldn't talk about it, if they wished to do so. I know it will take a long time and there is a lot of work to do. But if "the right way" ever comes up, I trust they could sit down at the table and hash it out.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #235 on: December 06, 2011, 11:31:18 PM »

I suppose there's nothing they couldn't talk about it, if they wished to do so. I know it will take a long time and there is a lot of work to do. But if "the right way" ever comes up, I trust they could sit down at the table and hash it out.

What will be will be. All I know is that they seem to like talking to each-other. And so it is what it is.
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,013


« Reply #236 on: December 06, 2011, 11:51:34 PM »

Food for thought;  Is the Roman Catholic Church truly the same church it was before the split?  Have they moved so far away from the original Deposit of Faith that they are no longer the See of Rome?  Or is it equal to the Orthodox trying to re-unite with Anglicans?  Make sense?  
We just assume that the Roman Catholic Church is the same body as it was nearly 1000 years ago, as if Antioch and Constantinople broke communion over say, having royal doors and the other not and then saying, ok, we really have no differences other than royal doors, ok, they believe in the same Deposit of Faith as they did when they broke communion, so you know you are re-uniting with the same original church.  
When the Russian church split in the USA and the Metropolia and the Synod were formed they didn't change beliefs they just weren't in communion with anyone.  While being separated from communion they maintained the same beliefs and practices.  So when they acknowledged and repented or whatever you want to call it (pretty much the bishops deciding the split wasn't dogmatic but pride-matic) there wasn't any issue other than hashing out who got to sit in what seat at the sobor.

With the developments in doctrine that have plagued the Roman Catholic Church, she is definitely NOT the same church as before the 1054 Great Schism.

Case in point, Vatican I which defined Papal Supremacy and Papal Infallibility.
And let us not forget the Council of Trent, which defined the differences between mortal and venial sin. This was a dangerous innovation because all sin seriously offends God. To accept venial sin as a lesser sin is to enter the slippery slope. In addition, scrupulosity was introduced as Catholics tried to distinguish between mortal and venial sins to satisfy the confessional requirements to state species and kinds of sins. (Thank God I am Orthodox and do not have to worry about such things.)

Hm, I'm not so sure about this. Are you disagreeing with the particular definition of mortal and venial sin given by Trent, or are you disagreeing with the distinction itself? I'm positive that the Orthodox Church recognizes a distinction between mortal and venial (aka "pardonable") sin, but it's possible that our understanding of the distinction differs from the RC one in certain respects.

I refer you to this page:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/exo_sintypes.aspx
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 11:51:54 PM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #237 on: December 07, 2011, 12:06:41 AM »

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all. 

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply.
 

No, Mary you are blessedly optimistic but wrong.  I can believe that your inner circle of Orthodox bishops and theologians gravitate to your point of view, like to like, but there is another more rigorist view.  Examples of such theologians and such bishops can easily be plucked off the net.  For example you will recall the words of Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London saying that Catholicism's desire is to swallow Orthodoxy and that the dialoghue is meaningless.  See message 109
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

If I may repeat the wise words of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware...

"But there also exists in the Orthodox Church a more rigorous group, who hold that since Orthodoxy is the Church, anyone who is not Orthodox
cannot be a member of the Church. Thus Metropolitan Antony, head of the Russian Church in Exile and one of the most distinguished of modern Russian theologians, wrote in his Catechism:

Question: Is it possible to admit that a split within the Church or among the Churches could ever take place?

"Answer: Never. Heretics and schismatics have from time to time fallen away from the one indivisible Church, and, by so doing, they ceased to be members of the Church, but the Church itself can never lose its unity according to Christ’s promise’.

"Of course (so this stricter group add) divine grace is certainly active among many non-Orthodox, and if they are sincere in their love of God, then we may be sure that God will have mercy upon them; but they cannot, in their present state, be termed members of the Church.

"Workers for Christian unity who do not often encounter this rigorist school should not forget that such opinions are held by many Orthodox of great learning and holiness."


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/_P1S.HTM
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #238 on: December 07, 2011, 12:25:14 AM »

Let there be an end to these fruitless, unneccessary, and wasteful (of time, energy, and money) meetings.  Let us agree to disagree and get on with following Christ in our own ways.

I disagree with you whole-heartedly!

Communion is not something automatic.

It must be worked for, forged out of our shared life in Christ, and then maintained.

If you don't think so: take a good long look at Orthodox jurisdictions and the Catholic Church in various parts of the world, particularly where the parish churches are near empty.

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all. 

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply. 

I agree.  But both side have to come to the table in good faith.  Many of the Orthodox Churches are only participating in the hope to eradicate the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by Metropolitan Hilarion's demand to revisit the "problem of the Unia".

Well here's a case of Internet Whiplash!

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 Smiley
And ALL of the Vatican is only participating in the hope of making "Eastern Catholic Churches" out of the Orthodox Churches.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,013


« Reply #239 on: December 07, 2011, 12:27:38 AM »

"Rigorist school"? This sounds like there are various equally permissible opinions about the ecclesiological status of the heterodox among the Fathers. But, as I'm sure Fr Ambrose is aware, there is in fact only one permissible opinion, that which Met Kallistos calls "rigorist", but which in fact should be more simply known as "Orthodox".
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #240 on: December 07, 2011, 01:10:22 AM »

"Rigorist school"? This sounds like there are various equally permissible opinions about the ecclesiological status of the heterodox among the Fathers. But, as I'm sure Fr Ambrose is aware, there is in fact only one permissible opinion, that which Met Kallistos calls "rigorist", but which in fact should be more simply known as "Orthodox".

Your own Church is riddled with discrepancies on this question.   Your teaching is that the Orthodox are unbaptized but all the same you commune us.  Your Church communes the Unbaptized !!!!!    I'd like to see that justified from the Fathers !!!
Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,013


« Reply #241 on: December 07, 2011, 01:27:46 AM »

"Rigorist school"? This sounds like there are various equally permissible opinions about the ecclesiological status of the heterodox among the Fathers. But, as I'm sure Fr Ambrose is aware, there is in fact only one permissible opinion, that which Met Kallistos calls "rigorist", but which in fact should be more simply known as "Orthodox".

Your own Church is riddled with discrepancies on this question.   Your teaching is that the Orthodox are unbaptized but all the same you commune us.  Your Church communes the Unbaptized !!!!!    I'd like to see that justified from the Fathers !!!

I don't know what you're referring to.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #242 on: December 07, 2011, 01:32:13 AM »

"Rigorist school"? This sounds like there are various equally permissible opinions about the ecclesiological status of the heterodox among the Fathers. But, as I'm sure Fr Ambrose is aware, there is in fact only one permissible opinion, that which Met Kallistos calls "rigorist", but which in fact should be more simply known as "Orthodox".

Your own Church is riddled with discrepancies on this question.   Your teaching is that the Orthodox are unbaptized but all the same you commune us.  Your Church communes the Unbaptized !!!!!    I'd like to see that justified from the Fathers !!!

I don't know what you're referring to.

I believe you participated just recently on another forum in a thread about this very point.  Clergy of your own Church spoke to the matter of communing the world Orthodox.
Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,533



« Reply #243 on: December 07, 2011, 01:34:00 AM »

Whoever your sources are I think they are pretty useless, shallow.   Why, we all remember a few months back when you persisted in offending us all by repeating that the Orthodox allow abortion.  Nobody with access to our bishops and theologians could possibly have tried to maintain that attitude.  And you were all at sea over Orthodox second marriages.  You gave up on that when I finally quoted Fr Ambrose Young.

We are remarkably amused.

You punch your favorite buttons.  I punch mine.

When you play straight and stop poking at me as though I am the enemy, I'll give it some thought as well.

We do not hold our breath.

We are amused by the use of the majestic plural in this thread. Please continue for our entertainment.

Because I don't believe the current ecumenical attitude of the official Orthodox hierarchy represents the authentic Apostolic position on the status of the heterodox. I believe that the position of the hierarchs of the True Orthodox Church represent the Apostolic tradition.

I don't believe that a teaching is Orthodox because self-styled Orthodox hierarchs say it is. I measure what they say against the traditional teaching of the Church, I see there are discrepancies, and I recognize that I must cleave to those bishops who actually agree with and promote the traditional teaching.
It is amusing to me how similar this is to what a member of the Society of St. Pius X might say.

SSPX or sedevacantists? I would be tempted to say they're more similar to the latter than the former.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,013


« Reply #244 on: December 07, 2011, 01:42:52 AM »

"Rigorist school"? This sounds like there are various equally permissible opinions about the ecclesiological status of the heterodox among the Fathers. But, as I'm sure Fr Ambrose is aware, there is in fact only one permissible opinion, that which Met Kallistos calls "rigorist", but which in fact should be more simply known as "Orthodox".

Your own Church is riddled with discrepancies on this question.   Your teaching is that the Orthodox are unbaptized but all the same you commune us.  Your Church communes the Unbaptized !!!!!    I'd like to see that justified from the Fathers !!!

I don't know what you're referring to.

I believe you participated just recently on another forum in a thread about this very point.  Clergy of your own Church spoke to the matter of communing the world Orthodox.

No, a priest who is not a member of our Church made such claims, but I debunked them by posting information about our ecclesiological position. You have no grounds on which to claim that we commune the unbaptized.
Logged
Jonathan Gress
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,013


« Reply #245 on: December 07, 2011, 01:45:56 AM »

From Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Fr Michael Pomazansky

Quote
Side by side with the straight, or right, path of faith there have always been those who thought differently (heterodoxountes, or "heterodox," in the expression of St. Ignatius the God-bearer), a world of greater or lesser errors among Christians, and sometimes even whole incorrect systems which attempted to burst into the midst of Orthodox Christians. As a result of the quest for truth there occurred divisions among Christians.

Becoming acquainted with the history of the Church, and likewise observing the contemporary world, we see that the errors which war against Orthodox Truth have appeared and do appear a) under the influence of other religions, b) under the influence of philosophy, and c) through the weakness and inclinations of fallen human nature, which seeks the rights and justifications of these weaknesses and inclinations.

Errors take root and become obstinate most frequently because of the pride of those who defend them, because of intellectual pride.

I'm not sure what Timiadis means, to be honest. Is he saying the "different beliefs and opinions" don't matter in themselves? If so, it seems dangerous to dismiss them like that. Of course, pride is the reason heretics remain obstinate in their false beliefs and opinions, and pride must be overcome for them to return to the Church. But in the end there are also real differences of belief, and we need to remember that among these differences there lie the true beliefs and the true opinions, set against all the false ones.

While I am 'open-minded' to honest dialogue, I concur that 'different beliefs and opinions' DO matter.

From the Orthodox point of view however, we need to be on guard that our own justified pride in our historical defense of Orthodoxy does not blind us to the possibility of honest discussion and potential reunification with others. Pride is a most dangerous sin as it allows humans to construct barriers to the recognition of truth.

I guess then we need to define "honest dialog". I wouldn't say that the current ecumenical dialogs taking place are "honest", for example, because they presuppose that heterodox groups are in some sense part of the Church, which is not an Orthodox presupposition. Otherwise, if the heterodox are understood to be completely outside the Church, why are they permitted to participate in Orthodox services when they don't show any intention of converting to the true faith? For evidence of this kind of occurrence, you can watch the video I posted earlier (and other videos are available if you're interested).

Honest, irenical dialog of the kind I think you're hoping for is exemplified by the many cases of correspondence between the Orthodox and the heterodox when the latter have inquired about what the Orthodox believe. For example, there is the correspondence between Patriarch Jeremias and the Lutherans in the 16th century. No unwarranted attacks were made on the Lutherans, but when it became clear the Protestants had no intention of accepting Orthodoxy, the correspondence quietly ended. There was never any statement made about the "common mission" or "calling" of the Lutherans and the Orthodox, precisely because there is no common mission between the heterodox and the Orthodox. The mission of the heterodox is diametrically opposed to the mission of the Orthodox.
But don't you think that the forces that assail Christians of all stripes present to us a much bigger circle with a much bigger diameter, such that the small circle on which we Christians stand on opposite sides pales in comparison?

No I don't. We're not talking about politics. We're not talking about compromising our ideological purity in order to forge some coalition against a common partisan enemy. We're talking about our salvation, and when it comes to salvation, you're either in the Church, and hence have the chance to be saved, or you're outside the Church, where there is no chance to be saved, as St Cyprian teaches us.

With all of the interaction between the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy, how can you tell if you are in the right place or not?

Because I don't believe the current ecumenical attitude of the official Orthodox hierarchy represents the authentic Apostolic position on the status of the heterodox. I believe that the position of the hierarchs of the True Orthodox Church represent the Apostolic tradition.

I don't believe that a teaching is Orthodox because self-styled Orthodox hierarchs say it is. I measure what they say against the traditional teaching of the Church, I see there are discrepancies, and I recognize that I must cleave to those bishops who actually agree with and promote the traditional teaching.
It is amusing to me how similar this is to what a member of the Society of St. Pius X might say.

So what? I guess by your reasoning it would be questionable if I also said abortion was murder, since a SSPX member would be sure to say that, too.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,463


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #246 on: December 07, 2011, 10:13:44 AM »

"Rigorist school"? This sounds like there are various equally permissible opinions about the ecclesiological status of the heterodox among the Fathers. But, as I'm sure Fr Ambrose is aware, there is in fact only one permissible opinion, that which Met Kallistos calls "rigorist", but which in fact should be more simply known as "Orthodox".
Only one permissible opinion? By whose decree?
Logged
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,018


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #247 on: December 07, 2011, 10:45:52 AM »

Alas, the circular firing squad has widened its perimeter.

With respect to the issue of 'uniatism' and the continuation of ecumenical dialogue, I would suggest that those not familiar with the so-called Balamand Declaration read it, keeping in mind that what it says doesn't please everyone and what it doesn't say may be more important. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Balamand_Statement

I will concede that Rome has not been entirely consistent with the ideals of Balamand in the intervening decades and that 'hot heads' on both sides have contributed to continued strife in some areas. However, on the whole things have improved.

Balamand should be read together with the North American Consultation's 1994 response to Balamand, which expresses more than a few cautionary thoughts on the entire issue. http://www.scoba.us/resources/orthodox-catholic/27.html


However, these words from the Consultation's response continue to ring true:   "In a balanced and even-handed way, it (Balamand) seeks to put an end to the present tensions occasioned by the existence of the Eastern Catholic churches. On the one hand, as the Document points out repeatedly: "... `uniatism' can no longer be accepted either as a method to be followed or as a model of the unity our churches are seeking" , "because it is opposed to the common tradition of our churches". At the same time, as the document also states, "concerning the Oriental Catholic churches (i.e. the Eastern Catholics), it is clear that they, as part of the Catholic Communion, have the right to exist and to act in answer to the spiritual needs of their faithful."

At the local level in America, relations between the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic communities who share a common lineage has improved considerably over the past twenty years. Families have worked to heal their long standing divisions over this issue and the climate has improved WITHOUT anyone conceding their own faith and while ACKNOWLEDGING the reality that we are NOT the same.

Likewise in Europe, the reality on the ground is that over the past two decades things have largely calmed down as the influence of the West in terms of human rights issues and greater contact with the rest of the world has occurred. In many parts of Slovakia and Ukraine, parishes SHARE or alternate use of facilities while one side or the other builds new temples.

The fears of the MP I suspect have more to do with two issues which historically trump issues of 'faith' in Russian politics: fear of Roman Rite growth in areas where population shifts have occurred since the collapse of the USSR and fear of Ukrainian nationalism as evidenced by the cooperation between the UOC-KP and the UGCC. (After all Rome has never been able to suppress her own  'old school' anti-ecumenical extremists who still view Russia (and the rest of Orthodoxy) as 'unchurched' and seek the Romanization of Russia. (About as likely I suspect as the Greek recapture of Constantinople.) We need to worry about real problems and realistic goals.....subjects for another discussion however, as this thread is way off the rails by now!)

Frankly, any attempt by Rome to 'force' the return of Eastern Catholics to Orthodoxy in advance of any ultimate reunion would likely drive most to the Roman Church. Let them be and when, and if, God wills that our Churches attain the basis for reunion their existence will be moot and they will have preserved their eastern orientation and patrimony.
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #248 on: December 07, 2011, 11:01:58 AM »

Let there be an end to these fruitless, unneccessary, and wasteful (of time, energy, and money) meetings.  Let us agree to disagree and get on with following Christ in our own ways.

I disagree with you whole-heartedly!

Communion is not something automatic.

It must be worked for, forged out of our shared life in Christ, and then maintained.

If you don't think so: take a good long look at Orthodox jurisdictions and the Catholic Church in various parts of the world, particularly where the parish churches are near empty.

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all.  

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply.  

I agree.  But both side have to come to the table in good faith.  Many of the Orthodox Churches are only participating in the hope to eradicate the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by Metropolitan Hilarion's demand to revisit the "problem of the Unia".

You make it sound as if eradication is a bad thing? It's obviously a major issue/problem/concern in Eastern Europe and so it should be revisited!

If there is going to be talks between the two communions then this issue must be put on the table!
The Eastern Catholic Churches do not deserve to be eradicated. I'm a Roman Rite Catholic, and I don't wish all the Western Rite Orthodox Churches to be eradicated.
Logged
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #249 on: December 07, 2011, 01:08:43 PM »

Let there be an end to these fruitless, unneccessary, and wasteful (of time, energy, and money) meetings.  Let us agree to disagree and get on with following Christ in our own ways.

I disagree with you whole-heartedly!

Communion is not something automatic.

It must be worked for, forged out of our shared life in Christ, and then maintained.

If you don't think so: take a good long look at Orthodox jurisdictions and the Catholic Church in various parts of the world, particularly where the parish churches are near empty.

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all.  

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply.  

I agree.  But both side have to come to the table in good faith.  Many of the Orthodox Churches are only participating in the hope to eradicate the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by Metropolitan Hilarion's demand to revisit the "problem of the Unia".

You make it sound as if eradication is a bad thing? It's obviously a major issue/problem/concern in Eastern Europe and so it should be revisited!

If there is going to be talks between the two communions then this issue must be put on the table!
The Eastern Catholic Churches do not deserve to be eradicated. I'm a Roman Rite Catholic, and I don't wish all the Western Rite Orthodox Churches to be eradicated.

I would not want that neither ! I like the eastern rite and the cultural differences.
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #250 on: December 07, 2011, 01:39:57 PM »

Let there be an end to these fruitless, unneccessary, and wasteful (of time, energy, and money) meetings.  Let us agree to disagree and get on with following Christ in our own ways.

I disagree with you whole-heartedly!

Communion is not something automatic.

It must be worked for, forged out of our shared life in Christ, and then maintained.

If you don't think so: take a good long look at Orthodox jurisdictions and the Catholic Church in various parts of the world, particularly where the parish churches are near empty.

We dare not stop!  Oddly enough the Orthodox hierarchs know that as well and I believe they are as driven as we are or we'd not be talking at all.  

Only in places like this is the impetus to pull away sharply.  

I agree.  But both side have to come to the table in good faith.  Many of the Orthodox Churches are only participating in the hope to eradicate the Eastern Catholic Churches as evidenced by Metropolitan Hilarion's demand to revisit the "problem of the Unia".

Well here's a case of Internet Whiplash!

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

 Smiley
And ALL of the Vatican is only participating in the hope of making "Eastern Catholic Churches" out of the Orthodox Churches.

This is an outright falsehood.  

Recent popes have made that perfectly clear.

The real problem in the bi-lateral talks today is inside Orthodoxy.

Most of the Greek Catholics would revert back to their root home in the GOC.  

That is what has the MP's knickers in a bunch!

That and Ukraine.

Let's dump all those high-priced, uselessly multiplied patriarchates while we're at it...what say?

PS: and what Podkarpatska said too!!


language modified due to the use of the U word   forum policy on use of the u word:http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13388.0.html -username! orthodox catholic moderator
 I am sorry to inform you that you are being placed on post moderation for 7 days for using the U word when referring to Eastern Rite/Greek Catholics.  I realise that you are Byzantine/Greek Catholic.  However I must step in because it wouldn't be fair to let the Greek Catholics use this term (and I think they are the ones that requested this policy here in the first place) and not let the non-Eastern Catholics use this term and moderate/warn them for doing so.  You were already on official warning status therefore I must place you on post moderaton.  If you feel that you haven't used the U word please contact our administrator, Fr. Christ.  -username! Orthodox Catholic section moderator
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 01:55:17 PM by username! » Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.136 seconds with 53 queries.