OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 24, 2014, 01:12:06 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Pope Benedict to Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew  (Read 6672 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« on: November 30, 2011, 02:26:13 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2011, 02:28:04 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."


Trivial to be sure, but why French?
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2011, 02:40:37 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."


Trivial to be sure, but why French?
The pan-European language of diplomacy?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2011, 02:50:50 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."


Trivial to be sure, but why French?
The pan-European language of diplomacy?

A bit old fashioned. English is today's lingua franca of European diplomacy. It replaced French after WWII.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2011, 02:59:08 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."


Trivial to be sure, but why French?
The pan-European language of diplomacy?

A bit old fashioned. English is today's lingua franca of European diplomacy. It replaced French after WWII.


Isn't the substance (and the very fact) of the letter, however "trivial", more important than whether it was written in French or English?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2011, 03:53:09 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."


Trivial to be sure, but why French?
The pan-European language of diplomacy?

A bit old fashioned. English is today's lingua franca of European diplomacy. It replaced French after WWII.


Isn't the substance (and the very fact) of the letter, however "trivial", more important than whether it was written in French or English?

I was saying the choice of language was of trivial concern. Simply perplexed at its selection.

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2011, 04:12:54 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."


Trivial to be sure, but why French?
The pan-European language of diplomacy?

A bit old fashioned. English is today's lingua franca of European diplomacy. It replaced French after WWII.


Isn't the substance (and the very fact) of the letter, however "trivial", more important than whether it was written in French or English?

I was saying the choice of language was of trivial concern. Simply perplexed at its selection.

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.

Yes, the choice of language *is* of trivial concern. 
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 04:14:32 PM »

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.

Why both of them don't live in the USA for the first place?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2011, 04:25:09 PM »

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.

Why both of them don't live in the USA for the first place?

Yeah, really!  I mean, what the heck's the matter with them??  And just who the heck do they think they are, anyway?!?!?!?!?  Sheesh...the sheer chutzpah of it!!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2011, 04:26:27 PM »

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.

Why both of them don't live in the USA for the first place?

Yeah, really!  I mean, what the heck's the matter with them??  And just who the heck do they think they are, anyway?!?!?!?!?  Sheesh...the sheer chutzpah of it!!

Do you have ANY idea what you are going on about?

Think it through. Why would one of those three language be used?

You can do it.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2011, 04:33:00 PM »

Think it through. Why would one of those three language be used?

No doubt freemason attempt to decrease the position of the chosen by God American nation.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 5,840


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 04:40:30 PM »

Quote
St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world
I thought St. Andrew was the patron saint of the EP not all of Orthodoxy.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 04:43:53 PM »

Quote
St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world
I thought St. Andrew was the patron saint of the EP not all of Orthodoxy.

PP

I though patron Saints of the Orthodox world were Saints Cyrill and Methodius (at least Polish wikipedia says so).
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:44:07 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,064


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2011, 04:48:49 PM »

I think he should have written it in Russian. 



Too soon?   Wink Grin
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2011, 04:49:35 PM »

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.

Why both of them don't live in the USA for the first place?

Yeah, really!  I mean, what the heck's the matter with them??  And just who the heck do they think they are, anyway?!?!?!?!?  Sheesh...the sheer chutzpah of it!!

Do you have ANY idea what you are going on about?

Think it through. Why would one of those three language be used?

You can do it.

An idea of what I'm going on about??  Are you *kidding* me??  Of course I don't  Grin Grin Grin.  Now, would you like that in German, Greek, English, American, or......wait for it...........French?  Or, Esperanto  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Grin Grin??

Again, seriously, is not the fact of the letter and its content more important than the language it was originally written in?  And, if not, why not?

I guess, too, that if you really need to know why it was written in French, you'd have to ask those who wrote it.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2011, 04:51:26 PM »

I think he should have written it in Russian. 



Too soon?   Wink Grin

Maybe the EP will reply in........................Serbian  Grin Grin.

Okay, have it your way.........................in Russian.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,631



« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 05:51:24 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."
In our Patriarchate St. Peter, its founder, is the patron saint of the Orthodox world.

Constantinople is not the Turkish capital, even according to the Turks.

Doesn't inspire much confidence in its ability to grasp other facts.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 06:24:23 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."
In our Patriarchate St. Peter, its founder, is the patron saint of the Orthodox world.

Constantinople is not the Turkish capital, even according to the Turks.

Doesn't inspire much confidence in its ability to grasp other facts.

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter..."


God forbid anyone focus on the *message*!

So Vatican Radio got it wrong and Ankara is the Turkish capital and not Constantinople, er, Istanbul.  And, not being "Orthodox", maybe Vatican Radio confused St. Andrew as being patron saint of the EP (see this: Saint Andrew (Greek: Ἀνδρέας, Andreas; early 1st century—mid to late 1st century AD), called in the Orthodox tradition Prōtoklētos, or the First-called, is a Christian Apostle and the brother of Saint Peter. The name "Andrew" (Greek: manly, brave, from ἀνδρεία, Andreia, "manhood, valour"), like other Greek names, appears to have been common among the Jews from the 3rd or 2nd century BC. No Hebrew or Aramaic name is recorded for him. He is considered the founder and first bishop of the Church of Byzantium and is consequently the patron saint of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.) with being patron saint of "the Orthodox world".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Andrew  (source cited. S1389)

But....that's *far*, **far** more important than the message, isn't it?

So much for "working together in the common search for truth and unity".  Sad

Perhaps instead of looking for nits to pick it might be more constructive all around if, when spotting an error, to gently correct, in love and charity, the one who made it.  Or, if the error is of little import in the grand scheme of things, to just overlook it.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 03:13:05 PM by serb1389 » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,631



« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 06:30:01 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."
In our Patriarchate St. Peter, its founder, is the patron saint of the Orthodox world.

Constantinople is not the Turkish capital, even according to the Turks.

Doesn't inspire much confidence in its ability to grasp other facts.

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter..."


God forbid anyone focus on the *message*!

So Vatican Radio got it wrong and Ankara is the Turkish capital and not Constantinople, er, Istanbul.  And, not being "Orthodox", maybe Vatican Radio confused St. Andrew as being patron saint of the EP (see this: Saint Andrew (Greek: Ἀνδρέας, Andreas; early 1st century—mid to late 1st century AD), called in the Orthodox tradition Prōtoklētos, or the First-called, is a Christian Apostle and the brother of Saint Peter. The name "Andrew" (Greek: manly, brave, from ἀνδρεία, Andreia, "manhood, valour"), like other Greek names, appears to have been common among the Jews from the 3rd or 2nd century BC. No Hebrew or Aramaic name is recorded for him. He is considered the founder and first bishop of the Church of Byzantium and is consequently the patron saint of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.) with being patron saint of "the Orthodox world".

But....that's *far*, **far** more important than the message, isn't it?

So much for "working together in the common search for truth and unity".  Sad
it just showed that it skips the truth part to impose its idea of unity.  You conviently forget that we have danced this waltz before.  And no, little has changed.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
samkim
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 735



« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 06:30:06 PM »

Damned Freemasons. Anyway, it should've been in Latin, the real common tongue of the west.
Logged

주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,965


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 10:06:17 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."
In our Patriarchate St. Peter, its founder, is the patron saint of the Orthodox world.

Constantinople is not the Turkish capital, even according to the Turks.

Doesn't inspire much confidence in its ability to grasp other facts.

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter..."


God forbid anyone focus on the *message*!

So Vatican Radio got it wrong and Ankara is the Turkish capital and not Constantinople, er, Istanbul.  And, not being "Orthodox", maybe Vatican Radio confused St. Andrew as being patron saint of the EP (see this: Saint Andrew (Greek: Ἀνδρέας, Andreas; early 1st century—mid to late 1st century AD), called in the Orthodox tradition Prōtoklētos, or the First-called, is a Christian Apostle and the brother of Saint Peter. The name "Andrew" (Greek: manly, brave, from ἀνδρεία, Andreia, "manhood, valour"), like other Greek names, appears to have been common among the Jews from the 3rd or 2nd century BC. No Hebrew or Aramaic name is recorded for him. He is considered the founder and first bishop of the Church of Byzantium and is consequently the patron saint of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.) with being patron saint of "the Orthodox world".

But....that's *far*, **far** more important than the message, isn't it?

So much for "working together in the common search for truth and unity".  Sad
it just showed that it skips the truth part to impose its idea of unity.  You conviently forget that we have danced this waltz before.  And no, little has changed.

Do you have a map for that?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 10:33:19 PM »

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter sent by Pope Benedict XVI to the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew 1st of Constantinoplel to mark Wednesday’s feast of St Andrew, patron saint of the Orthodox world. The letter, written in French, was presented to the Patriarch in the Turkish capital by a delegation from the Pontifical council for Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Kurt Koch."
In our Patriarchate St. Peter, its founder, is the patron saint of the Orthodox world.

Constantinople is not the Turkish capital, even according to the Turks.

Doesn't inspire much confidence in its ability to grasp other facts.

"Catholics and Orthodox face exactly the same challenges in the cultural, social, economic, political and ecological spheres. Faced with the urgency of these tasks, we have the duty to show the world that we are people of a mature faith, people who – despite our tensions – are capable of working together in the common search for truth and unity.

That’s the message at the heart of a letter..."


God forbid anyone focus on the *message*!

So Vatican Radio got it wrong and Ankara is the Turkish capital and not Constantinople, er, Istanbul.  And, not being "Orthodox", maybe Vatican Radio confused St. Andrew as being patron saint of the EP (see this: Saint Andrew (Greek: Ἀνδρέας, Andreas; early 1st century—mid to late 1st century AD), called in the Orthodox tradition Prōtoklētos, or the First-called, is a Christian Apostle and the brother of Saint Peter. The name "Andrew" (Greek: manly, brave, from ἀνδρεία, Andreia, "manhood, valour"), like other Greek names, appears to have been common among the Jews from the 3rd or 2nd century BC. No Hebrew or Aramaic name is recorded for him. He is considered the founder and first bishop of the Church of Byzantium and is consequently the patron saint of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.) with being patron saint of "the Orthodox world".

But....that's *far*, **far** more important than the message, isn't it?

So much for "working together in the common search for truth and unity".  Sad
it just showed that it skips the truth part to impose its idea of unity.  You conviently forget that we have danced this waltz before.  And no, little has changed.

Do you have a map for that?
Or a picture of the Romanian Eparch of Italy?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 10:33:46 PM by WetCatechumen » Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Online Online

Posts: 1,308


Katerina, my sister, dear beyond measure


« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 01:25:14 AM »

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.

Why both of them don't live in the USA for the first place?

Yeah, really!  I mean, what the heck's the matter with them??  And just who the heck do they think they are, anyway?!?!?!?!?  Sheesh...the sheer chutzpah of it!!

Do you have ANY idea what you are going on about?

Think it through. Why would one of those three language be used?

You can do it.

Treating this as a guessing game, I interpret it as a personal message that incorporated a diplomatic choice of language.

Both Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew are hyperpolyglots; Pope Benedict: German, French, Italian, Latin, some English, some Spanish; Patriarch Bartholomew: Greek, Turkish, Italian, German, French, English, classical Greek and Latin.

I suspect, based on where Patriarch Bartholomew was educated, German, French and Italian are the most compatible languages between the two hierarchs. I excluded Latin because it is too impersonal and prone to debates about interpretation. German and Italian might be construed as a Vatican-centric determination of what language should be used for correspondence (German might have additional problems I will not get into). French, on the other hand is the language of love, and perfectly appropriate for the occasion.

Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 01:30:23 AM »

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.

Why both of them don't live in the USA for the first place?

Yeah, really!  I mean, what the heck's the matter with them??  And just who the heck do they think they are, anyway?!?!?!?!?  Sheesh...the sheer chutzpah of it!!

Do you have ANY idea what you are going on about?

Think it through. Why would one of those three language be used?

You can do it.

Treating this as a guessing game, I interpret it as a personal message that incorporated a diplomatic choice of language.

Both Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew are hyperpolyglots; Pope Benedict: German, French, Italian, Latin, some English, some Spanish; Patriarch Bartholomew: Greek, Turkish, Italian, German, French, English, classical Greek and Latin.

I suspect, based on where Patriarch Bartholomew was educated, German, French and Italian are the most compatible languages between the two hierarchs. I excluded Latin because it is too impersonal and prone to debates about interpretation. German and Italian might be construed as a Vatican-centric determination of what language should be used for correspondence (German might have additional problems I will not get into). French, on the other hand is the language of love, and perfectly appropriate for the occasion.



See people? This is thinking and a reasonable explanation.

Makes perfect sense.

Merci!
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 11,936


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 01:39:10 AM »

Quote from: Michał Kalina
I though patron Saints of the Orthodox world were Saints Cyrill and Methodius (at least Polish wikipedia says so).

Hmmm. Something to think about.  angel (Not that it's bad if they are. I just hadn't heard that before.)
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Michał Kalina
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,465


WWW
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2011, 01:57:57 AM »

There is no such thing as patron Saints of the Church.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2011, 02:09:45 AM »

There is no such thing as patron Saints of the Church.
That was what I was thinking, then I thought of something else. Shocked
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2011, 02:48:46 AM »

I could imagine English, German, or Greek, but not French.

Why both of them don't live in the USA for the first place?

Yeah, really!  I mean, what the heck's the matter with them??  And just who the heck do they think they are, anyway?!?!?!?!?  Sheesh...the sheer chutzpah of it!!

Do you have ANY idea what you are going on about?

Think it through. Why would one of those three language be used?

You can do it.

Treating this as a guessing game, I interpret it as a personal message that incorporated a diplomatic choice of language.

Both Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew are hyperpolyglots; Pope Benedict: German, French, Italian, Latin, some English, some Spanish; Patriarch Bartholomew: Greek, Turkish, Italian, German, French, English, classical Greek and Latin.

I suspect, based on where Patriarch Bartholomew was educated, German, French and Italian are the most compatible languages between the two hierarchs. I excluded Latin because it is too impersonal and prone to debates about interpretation. German and Italian might be construed as a Vatican-centric determination of what language should be used for correspondence (German might have additional problems I will not get into). French, on the other hand is the language of love, and perfectly appropriate for the occasion.



See people? This is thinking and a reasonable explanation.

Makes perfect sense.

Merci!

LOL In diplomacy, especially in diplomatic negotiations the usage of specific  Language is no trivial matter. it is calculated and deliberate with intended unsaid yet understood meaning( it also reflects and conveys  positive or negative intentions). carelessness in language of choice could send the wrong political message further alienating the other party one attempts to negotiate with. Those engaged in diplomacy are aware of this. so your question was in my opinion was neither trivial nor irrelevant. As opus clearly demonstrated it is an important part of the message. it is usually decided bilaterally what language to use to communicate between the two, it gets a more complicated when its a multilateral negotiation, anyway you know what I mean. angel
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2011, 03:17:58 AM »

Wait, Ss. Cyril and Methodius are some kind of patron saints of Orthodoxy? I knew I screwed up when I picked up them as my RC confirmation saints!  Oops.  Embarrassed

Regarding language in ecumenical exchanges, I don't know about official policy (if there is one) of the churches, but I would think that this is a pragmatic concern, rather than trying to choose a language that best conveys "love" or some abstract idea like that (a strange, arbitrary notion; I've never felt French to be particularly "lovely"). Like English in India, I would think that French fulfills a few important constraints imposed by the nature of the communication: It's neither side's native language, nor is it the native language of a strongly Catholic or Orthodox identified people (hardly any French are practicing Catholics), so it is relatively politically neutral. It seems like a decent choice, all things considered.
Logged

J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2011, 01:53:50 PM »

Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself? 

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,080


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2011, 02:09:56 PM »

Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself? 

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!
"The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2011, 02:22:42 PM »

Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself? 

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!
"The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan

I *knew* someone would dredge that up  Roll Eyes.  So, whatever words I use in a given language will mean the same thing in that language no matter what they are, right?  I mean, if language is a medium, and the medium is the message, each language is a different message no matter what the words are?  Paleeeze....give me a break!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2011, 03:37:00 PM »

Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself? 

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!
"The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan

I *knew* someone would dredge that up  Roll Eyes.  So, whatever words I use in a given language will mean the same thing in that language no matter what they are, right?  I mean, if language is a medium, and the medium is the message, each language is a different message no matter what the words are?  Paleeeze....give me a break!

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
What is spoken is never, and in no. language, what is said.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2011, 03:59:51 PM »

Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself?  

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!
"The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan

I *knew* someone would dredge that up  Roll Eyes.  So, whatever words I use in a given language will mean the same thing in that language no matter what they are, right?  I mean, if language is a medium, and the medium is the message, each language is a different message no matter what the words are?  Paleeeze....give me a break!

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
What is spoken is never, and in no. language, what is said.

And this applies also to the *written* word?  (Remember, we're talking here of a written letter.)  If so, just what *is* Heidegger saying??  And...what does that "say" about Holy Scripture?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 04:13:08 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,869



« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2011, 04:14:33 PM »

Yes, as noted by ialmisery, the letter was presented at the Patriarchal Church of St. George at the Phanar, in Istanbul, which, when it was referred to as Constantinople, was the capital of the Byzantine Empire and the Ottoman Empire.  Since the establishment of the so called Turkish Republic, Ataturk established his capital at Ankara.  Typical of the RC's, though, considering St. Andrew the patron of the Orthodox Church probably because he is the patron of the Church of Constantinople.

But, I do agree with the substance of His Holiness' message.  Both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church should acknowledge that one thousand years of separation has resulted in differences in doctrine and theology, but acknowledge the 1,000 year history of their essential oneness in faith, and should establish an entity that would jointly proclaim the message of Christ to the world, along with other Trinitarian Christian denominations, if there are any left who don't ordain women and homosexuals.  The world needs the message of Jesus Christ more so today than ever, a world overwhelmed by hedonism and the Moslem heresy.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 04:16:46 PM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2011, 04:25:14 PM »

Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself?  

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!
"The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan

I *knew* someone would dredge that up  Roll Eyes.  So, whatever words I use in a given language will mean the same thing in that language no matter what they are, right?  I mean, if language is a medium, and the medium is the message, each language is a different message no matter what the words are?  Paleeeze....give me a break!

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
What is spoken is never, and in no. language, what is said.

And this applies also to the *written* word?  (Remember, we're talking here of a written letter.)  If so, just what *is* Heidegger saying??  And...what does that "say" about Holy Scripture?

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
In typewriting, all men resemble each other.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2011, 04:33:57 PM »



Quote from: Martin Heidegger
In typewriting, all men resemble each other.


The term "non sequitur" comes to mind here.  Now, if that's an incorrect use of it, then how 'bout "just plain nonsense"?  Because, that's what you seem to be writing.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2011, 04:38:34 PM »



Quote from: Martin Heidegger
In typewriting, all men resemble each other.


The term "non sequitur" comes to mind here.  Now, if that's an incorrect use of it, then how 'bout "just plain nonsense"?  Because, that's what you seem to be writing.

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
Those in the crossing must in the end know what is mistaken by all urging for intelligibility: that every thinking of being, all philosophy, can never be confirmed by "facts," ie, by beings. Making itself intelligible is suicide for philosophy. Those who idolize "facts" never notice that their idols only shine in a borrowed light. They are also meant not to notice this; for thereupon they would have to be at a loss and therefore useless. But idolizers and idols are used wherever gods are in flight and so announce their nearness.

Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2011, 04:41:09 PM »

I think he should have written it in Russian. 



Too soon?   Wink Grin

Maybe the EP will reply in........................Serbian  Grin Grin.

Okay, have it your way.........................in Russian.

psh...Arabic, obviously Wink
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,064


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2011, 04:43:11 PM »

Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself?  

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!
"The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan

I *knew* someone would dredge that up  Roll Eyes.  So, whatever words I use in a given language will mean the same thing in that language no matter what they are, right?  I mean, if language is a medium, and the medium is the message, each language is a different message no matter what the words are?  Paleeeze....give me a break!

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
What is spoken is never, and in no. language, what is said.

And this applies also to the *written* word?  (Remember, we're talking here of a written letter.)  If so, just what *is* Heidegger saying??  And...what does that "say" about Holy Scripture?

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
In typewriting, all men resemble each other.
Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself? 

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!
"The medium is the message." -- Marshall McLuhan

I *knew* someone would dredge that up  Roll Eyes.  So, whatever words I use in a given language will mean the same thing in that language no matter what they are, right?  I mean, if language is a medium, and the medium is the message, each language is a different message no matter what the words are?  Paleeeze....give me a break!

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
What is spoken is never, and in no. language, what is said.


Quote from: Martin Heidegger
In typewriting, all men resemble each other.


The term "non sequitur" comes to mind here.  Now, if that's an incorrect use of it, then how 'bout "just plain nonsense"?  Because, that's what you seem to be writing.

 I need sources on all of these Martin Heidegger quotes, or links.  You both have 24 hours.  In fact, the next person who quotes ANYTHING without providing a link or citation will be warned.  You have all be warned.  
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2011, 04:43:26 PM »

if there are any left who don't ordain women and homosexuals.  The world needs the message of Jesus Christ more so today than ever, a world overwhelmed by hedonism and the Moslem heresy.

Weird how language always gives us away.

You don't think the the RC and OC ordain homosexuals?

They do.

And women?

That topic ain't closed or not rightfully so think some.

And strange how you place the ordination of women and homosexuals adjacent to the message of Jesus Christ.

Not going to get into these topics, just pointing out something I found a bit odd.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2011, 04:47:13 PM »



Quote from: Martin Heidegger
In typewriting, all men resemble each other.


The term "non sequitur" comes to mind here.  Now, if that's an incorrect use of it, then how 'bout "just plain nonsense"?  Because, that's what you seem to be writing.

Quote from: Martin Heidegger
Those in the crossing must in the end know what is mistaken by all urging for intelligibility: that every thinking of being, all philosophy, can never be confirmed by "facts," ie, by beings. Making itself intelligible is suicide for philosophy. Those who idolize "facts" never notice that their idols only shine in a borrowed light. They are also meant not to notice this; for thereupon they would have to be at a loss and therefore useless. But idolizers and idols are used wherever gods are in flight and so announce their nearness.



Do *you* have anything to contribute to this non-discussion, of your own, besides unattributed quotes by Martin Heidegger without even any kind of contextual explanation?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,374


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2011, 05:02:38 PM »

Ahem.

At a quick glance, I thought the title read: Pope Benedict to Ordain Patriarch Bartholomew

Yes, I did a double take and realized I had initially read the title wrong.  Roll Eyes
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 9,949


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2011, 05:10:00 PM »

Ahem.

At a quick glance, I thought the title read: Pope Benedict to Ordain Patriarch Bartholomew

Yes, I did a double take and realized I had initially read the title wrong.  Roll Eyes

What a great idea!!!! Grin

Wishful thinking  Grin Grin?  Freudian slip  Grin Grin?

That was pretty funny, Maria!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2011, 05:10:46 PM »

Although my ignorance is huge about many, many things, I *am* aware that language is extremely important, and that there are many reasons why one who is multilingual and addressing another polyglot chooses one language above others.  As I said earlier, why French was chosen in this instance is best asked of and answered by the person(s) writing the letter.  All of our speculation about it is nothing more than electronic hot air, which abounds beyond belief on the internet and on this board.

While the language one uses may or may not be part of what one is attempting to communicate, the language itself is a medium, is it not?  Am I mistaken in thinking that the message, whatever the language used to deliver it, is the *main* thing, if not necessarily the only thing, of import?

If, indeed, the message (i.e. that which is contained in the letter) is of highest, though not necessarily of sole priority, why then what seems here to be the greater focus on the language used to deliver the message rather than the message itself? 

Forgive me if I have misunderstood these things!



Come on J Michael,  Cool language is very important in negotiations, issues such as sovereignty and political dominance (in this case Church governance) can be conveyed with the type of language one uses. They took care not to antagonize the other in these matters where the usage of one’s language can be understood as a concession of certain political power or weight to the other etc. Now your indignation over the inquirey about the language used although understandable is not entirely justified in the real world of diplomacy.  so calm down and let us reason together.  :angel:When these letters are written people(those in charge of writing them)  are concerned not only about what is being actually said with the words, but also the language used to convey them. In this case the careful selection of the neutral language French speaks well on the good will of the communicant as well as it successfully avoids any political misunderstanding.

People who know of the importance of language in diplomatic interactions have valid point to look into the type of language used as well as the content of the language. It is part of the message. The UN is a good example, if you would care to look into it, that publications of official documents have to wait until available in all the official languages of the UN. Just because it might  mean the same in English they do not rush to publish the English version first and wait on the others.

In this case there is a valid reason why the article mentioned that the Letter was in French. J Michael relax no one is arguing that the message of the words in the letter are not important, however it is a fair question and a valid one to look into why the Papal letter was written in French, the inquiry does not undermine or downplay the significance of what the letter says in words. You cannot dictate people to look into the meaning of the words only and ignore the significance of the language used. We can look at both, it should not be an either or thing. In the real world, such things are not mere speculations but rather informed and educated understandings of the significance of language in both secular and religious politics.

As we are many in here who are discussing this event, you have to give leeway for people to look at it from different angles it only serves to enrich our understanding IMO. So relax my brother we are all on the same page, you are free to discuss what the words say , as I am or any other person is free to inquire what the significance of the language used is, while holding my peace in regards to commenting on what the words say. I will not downplay the significance of the words as you should not down play the significance of the language used and get indignant over people who inquire about it. I hope we are having an intelligent and civil discussion, where educated inquiry and analysis of certain things are allowed, and we do not neccessarily have to ask the writters why they wrote it in french as you seem to think and suggest we do.

peace Smiley
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.193 seconds with 72 queries.