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Author Topic: Would you allow your family close to a (used to be) pervert?  (Read 3276 times) Average Rating: 0
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primuspilus
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« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2011, 12:05:36 PM »

What Im trying to say is that if you start stating the rules of the Church to this man, you're wasting your breath (unless he is of the Church or was...). To convince people of anything you have to use arguments that people acknowledge as valid. This man would just roll his eyes and walk away if you start quoting scripture and he does not care.

Its the same thing as slamming an athiest using scripture. Its ridiculous.

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athos
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« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2011, 01:44:51 PM »

I think the discussion here diverted too much towards what is judgement and what is not, which is something I do not understand.
I don't care how my decisions are viewed by secular minded people. We do not speak the same language we do not share the same beliefs. Its like flying on different airplanes and trying to meet each other in mid air. Not going to happen.
As simply as I can put it, its one thing to not see people of fluid moral views as equals, and another thing to hang out with them and make them part of your family just to make a point. There HAS to be a level of security inside the family, both physical and spiritual.

In any way, I'm happy to read your thoughts, even though my mother in law has just left the guy on her own accord so there won't be any more drama or having to explain why he won't see any more of us.


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« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2011, 07:07:34 PM »

Its the same thing as slamming an athiest using scripture. Its ridiculous.

Always makes me cringe ...
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« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2011, 05:49:33 AM »

It's very difficult for me to judge consensual adult relationships. A lot of bizarre consensual couplings are in a lot of people's proverbial closets. Here is the big thing: was it consensual? Do you feel he respects women/people? If either of these answers are no, don't let others close to him.
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« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2011, 06:27:34 AM »

I think you're missing the elephants in the room which are, step-daughter and wife's sisters!
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« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2011, 06:35:25 PM »

Firstly, there is nothing in this man's history - as laid out in the original post - to suggest that he is in any way a danger to children.  He had sex with his wife's (presumably adult) sisters and his adult step-daughter.  These do represent some serious moral failings in him, at the time that he did these things.  But can we not overcome our sins?  St. Moses the Black was a brutal thief, adulterer, and murderer.  Yet, he changed.  He became a new man in Christ.  I don't know how long ago this man committed his sexual immorality, but I do know that people can change. 

I've committed horrific sins in my own past, things that I am so very, very far from proud of.  If God judges me for the sins I've repented of, then I've no hope.
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« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2011, 06:59:53 AM »

Two debates have crossed here. One is whether or not pointing out somebody's perversion or immorality constitutes "judgment" or "discernment"; the second is whether Orthodox Christian norms of behavior may be applied to those outside the Church. Regarding the former, it's hard to say what the OP intended by using terms like "pervert", but I see no reason to think he was not simply discerning this man's objectively perverse behavior (when measured against traditional norms), rather than arrogating to himself judgment over the man's spiritual status, which is God's prerogative. In order to determine whether or not he was judging in the latter sense, I think we would need to be able to see into his heart, but we cannot.

Regarding the latter, you sort of made my point again. Whether or not this man is "perverted" as opposed to merely "immoral" depends on the highly fluid norms of contemporary society. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP grew up to think of this behavior as perverted, while the other man in question grew up to think of it as immoral at best. I think it suffices to say that according to Orthodox norms, this behavior is perverted, and that on an Orthodox forum the OP is allowed to assume that others share the same assumptions. I'm not aware that the Church applies different moral norms to those outside the Church. What is certainly true is that those who break God's law in ignorance will be judged more leniently than those who do so in knowledge of the law, but that is a matter of judgment in the second sense, as I outlined above.

In a personal opinion though, after re-reading the OP, I think the guy is a pervert.  Any time you sleep with a mom and then her daughter ESPECIALLY when you are married to the mom and it is your step daughter - that sounds pretty perverted to me.  I don't care if she was over 18.

I would classify this as an perverted.
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