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Author Topic: Would you allow your family close to a (used to be) pervert?  (Read 3192 times) Average Rating: 0
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athos
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« on: November 29, 2011, 04:14:28 PM »

This is my first post in this forum, sorry to start with such a weird thread.
Its one of those things that I never expected to happen in my life, yet it did.
My mother in law is a non practicing Christian Orthodox, that has been moving from one wrong relationship to the next, pretty much her whole life.
She had two failed marriages and now is at the point that she isn't looking to be married anymore, just dating guys... At 53.
We moved her down south from upstate NY to live close to us after she almost lost her house due to debt problems. While she lived for a while in our house she was dating like crazy instead of trying to start her life over, get a steady job etc. I don't blame her. I understand her insecurities. She had a hard life, she was abused as a kid, and in a way she is paying for the sins of her parents.
She left our house to live with a boyfriend aged 56 or so. Eventually we got to meet that boyfriend of hers, he seemed like a nice guy, probably nicer than any of her ex husbands. We got along just fine for a year, we even let our 3yr old daughter sleep at the boyfriend's house with her grandma for a few nights during this year.

Then a couple of weeks ago, she talked with my wife, and confessed that she really doesn't love that guy (which we've known for a while now) they are fighting a lot, and furthermore, that guy told her that in his past, he slept with his ex wife's sisters, and his step daughter (over 18 at the time).
That disturbing information was all I needed to hear, to simply say, we are cutting off any relationship with that guy. My wife explained that to her mother, but still I think she doesn't believe we really meant it. I guess she will figure it out by Christmas.
This guy says he is a changed man now, he is a "devout" Christian (born again or something like that) and this is a part of his crazy youth that doesn't apply to him anymore.

But if it ever comes to an argument about this matter, I'm ready to say, "this is where I draw the line".
If the guy slept with both his wife's sisters and her daughter even if it was close to 20 years ago, he was still close to 40. That is not "youth". At this age (in my opinion) someone is very mature and aware of his actions. And if he is rotten enough to do something like that, I doubt his demons will leave him alone at any age, no matter how old he is.
Now I don't judge him. I am responsible for my own soul, and that of my wife's and 3yr old daughter's, I have no excuse for judging others. That guy may be truthfully repenting for his sins.
But do I put my trust on his repentance with my daughter around him? No. Do I want him to be part of my family? No.I just can't do that no matter what. I don't even dare to think what is going though his head when my wife and daughter are around.
Someone would say, that the Christian thing would be to forgive everyone no matter what. However I have to protect my family.
Still,  I wanted to hear what the public thinks of this. Sorry for the long post.


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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 04:48:52 PM »

Now I don't judge him.
Seems to me that you already have.
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 04:59:20 PM »

There is a difference between not judging and being stupid.  Would you let your three year old daughter share a room with a pit bull...one that has already bitten someone?  Would you give her a zippo and some newspapers and tell her to have fun?  Would you give her a loaded pistol?  

Would you let her sleep at the house of someone who admitted to sleeping with his step daughter...

In all honesty, I wouldn't want a daughter of mine sleeping over with unmarried grandma and boyfriend regardless of anything else.  Perhaps the guy has changed his life and repented.  Nonetheless, I would not take the chance.  Don't judge him.  Don't look down on him.  You don't have any reason to forgive him, since he really hasn't done anything to you.  But I would personally err on the side of caution.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 05:00:15 PM by vamrat » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 05:04:20 PM »

Now I don't judge him.
Seems to me that you already have.

Please give me your definition of Judgement. To me is, to not have an opinion on how someone lives his own life. But the potential of that person's doings, crossing over to my own family life, gives me a reason to put a fence right there, and say "live your life as you please, just leave my family out of it". Is that judgement?
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 05:22:53 PM »

Now I don't judge him.
Seems to me that you already have.

Please give me your definition of Judgement. To me is, to not have an opinion on how someone lives his own life. But the potential of that person's doings, crossing over to my own family life, gives me a reason to put a fence right there, and say "live your life as you please, just leave my family out of it". Is that judgement?

Let's look at your words immediately leading up to your statement that you don't judge him:

If the guy slept with both his wife's sisters and her daughter even if it was close to 20 years ago, he was still close to 40. That is not "youth". At this age (in my opinion) someone is very mature and aware of his actions. And if he is rotten enough to do something like that, I doubt his demons will leave him alone at any age, no matter how old he is.
How is this not a judgment of him?

Consider also the title you attached to this thread, where you call the guy a pervert. How is that not a judgment?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 05:42:36 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 05:39:47 PM »

I probably would not mind hanging around with this guy, but I would not let my wife or daughter (if I had one) anywhere near him.
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 07:10:15 PM »

This is my first post in this forum, sorry to start with such a weird thread.
Its one of those things that I never expected to happen in my life, yet it did.
My mother in law is a non practicing Christian Orthodox, that has been moving from one wrong relationship to the next, pretty much her whole life.
She had two failed marriages and now is at the point that she isn't looking to be married anymore, just dating guys... At 53.
We moved her down south from upstate NY to live close to us after she almost lost her house due to debt problems. While she lived for a while in our house she was dating like crazy instead of trying to start her life over, get a steady job etc. I don't blame her. I understand her insecurities. She had a hard life, she was abused as a kid, and in a way she is paying for the sins of her parents.
She left our house to live with a boyfriend aged 56 or so. Eventually we got to meet that boyfriend of hers, he seemed like a nice guy, probably nicer than any of her ex husbands. We got along just fine for a year, we even let our 3yr old daughter sleep at the boyfriend's house with her grandma for a few nights during this year.

Then a couple of weeks ago, she talked with my wife, and confessed that she really doesn't love that guy (which we've known for a while now) they are fighting a lot, and furthermore, that guy told her that in his past, he slept with his ex wife's sisters, and his step daughter (over 18 at the time).
That disturbing information was all I needed to hear, to simply say, we are cutting off any relationship with that guy. My wife explained that to her mother, but still I think she doesn't believe we really meant it. I guess she will figure it out by Christmas.
This guy says he is a changed man now, he is a "devout" Christian (born again or something like that) and this is a part of his crazy youth that doesn't apply to him anymore.

But if it ever comes to an argument about this matter, I'm ready to say, "this is where I draw the line".
If the guy slept with both his wife's sisters and her daughter even if it was close to 20 years ago, he was still close to 40. That is not "youth". At this age (in my opinion) someone is very mature and aware of his actions. And if he is rotten enough to do something like that, I doubt his demons will leave him alone at any age, no matter how old he is.
Now I don't judge him. I am responsible for my own soul, and that of my wife's and 3yr old daughter's, I have no excuse for judging others. That guy may be truthfully repenting for his sins.
But do I put my trust on his repentance with my daughter around him? No. Do I want him to be part of my family? No.I just can't do that no matter what. I don't even dare to think what is going though his head when my wife and daughter are around.
Someone would say, that the Christian thing would be to forgive everyone no matter what. However I have to protect my family.
Still,  I wanted to hear what the public thinks of this. Sorry for the long post.




Recognising and being open about what a person has done, (if it is still and active issue, which in this case it always will be) is not judging them, it's being wise and also avoiding putting them in a difficult position as well. I don't think anyone who has a young family should be in contact with someone who is dealing with this type of thing in their life.

Issues that aren't ongoing (a person who used to shoplift etc.), they're a different matter but the nature of this dis-ease means that it's ever present unfortunately.
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 07:15:32 PM »

Protect your child from any unacceptable risk of harm and do not judge.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 07:44:09 PM »

Now I don't judge him.
Seems to me that you already have.

Please give me your definition of Judgement. To me is, to not have an opinion on how someone lives his own life. But the potential of that person's doings, crossing over to my own family life, gives me a reason to put a fence right there, and say "live your life as you please, just leave my family out of it". Is that judgement?

Let's look at your words immediately leading up to your statement that you don't judge him:

If the guy slept with both his wife's sisters and her daughter even if it was close to 20 years ago, he was still close to 40. That is not "youth". At this age (in my opinion) someone is very mature and aware of his actions. And if he is rotten enough to do something like that, I doubt his demons will leave him alone at any age, no matter how old he is.
How is this not a judgment of him?

Consider also the title you attached to this thread, where you call the guy a pervert. How is that not a judgment?

Stop judging people for judging people.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 07:44:47 PM by samkim » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 07:45:33 PM »

Whether you use crude terms or not, to address an issue a perosn has, it doesn't mean there is judgement occuring.
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 07:58:19 PM »

I think your going way way over board on this one. First to call someone a pervert for having sex when the parties involved are two adults is a bit over the line don't you think. I don't think what the guy did was of the best judgement to end up dating a mother and daughter combo but honestly that don't make him the worst guy in the world.

If you don't want your wife around him cause you feel a little insecure thats really not his fault that lies with you.
 
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 08:16:52 PM »

Also, please show how this guy has ever been a threat to children in the sense that he'd sexually abuse them. 

He may be a *word that I can't use in the public forum*, but he's not a demonstrable threat to children.
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 08:18:08 PM »

Have to agree with Akimori Makoto.
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 08:21:21 PM »

I think you should be more concerned about your mother-in-law than about your daughter. Nothing seems to indicate that the man is interested in very young girls. However, he does have a history of hurting adult women.

That being said, it's certainly not a healthy environment for your daughter. I am more bothered by the influence of your mother-in-law on your daughter than I am of the boyfriend.
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 08:42:36 PM »

Whether you use crude terms or not, to address an issue a perosn has, it doesn't mean there is judgement occuring.

I think you may be right.

Still, it's hard for me to figure out sometimes what's an acceptable common-sense decision and what's a judgement consisting solely of my own fears or temper.  Sad
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 08:48:46 PM »

Seems to me there's no reason to think this man will abuse your daughter, but certainly that household is not the most wholesome place to raise a child. Sleeping over is another matter. It seems a shame to prevent your daughter visiting her grandmother, unless there is a very good reason to prevent it. Maybe you should find out more about what their everyday life is like, and let them know what values you're trying to teach your daughter and that you would be upset if they tried to instill in her other ideas about what is an appropriate lifestyle. When your daughter is grown up she can make her own choices, but while she is a child it is your responsibility to ensure she is taught the right values.
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 09:01:50 PM »

Whether you use crude terms or not, to address an issue a perosn has, it doesn't mean there is judgement occuring.

I think you may be right.

Still, it's hard for me to figure out sometimes what's an acceptable common-sense decision and what's a judgement consisting solely of my own fears or temper.  Sad

I think the issue with judging is when it comes to you determining the fate of their soul, thus judgement in the "final" sense.  Anything other than this hubris could probably be labeled as discernment just as easily as it could be judgement. 
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2011, 10:05:41 PM »

For the sake of argument let us assume the person resorts back to his former ways, has he engaged in none consensual sex before? If so you might need to take all the necessary precautions without being hateful towards the man he is now. In this fallen world we have to be wise like the serpent and meek like the dove, it’s a delicate balance.  If he has never engaged in none consensual sex and sex with a minor then all the sexual activity he has been involved in although morally questionable, is between two consenting adults and that is his business, all things being as they are and assuming we have all the information on him it seems unlikely of him to attack either your child or your wife sexually.

 Be careful not to lose your Christian compassion and charity toward him, he has his own demons to fight and if he trusts in God the Lord CAN save him. Remember you too are a sinner but for the mercy of God in your life, you never know how you would react if those demons were to enter your heart, God forbid, you might act worse than him. Keep in mind that sometimes for our education and humility we might get tempted with the very thing we abhor may the Lord have mercy on us.

 Bottom line is  as long as I can trust my wife and her sisters to make the right decisions on such matters I will not be worried about what he fantasizes about  in his head. As to him being a born again Christian and a changed man from his old ways, I think the fact that he is living with your mother in law without marrying her, speaks of change that is little to none that might make us question his word. Still that is his business, and your mother in law is an adult, you can only pray for both of them.

 However, on the matter of the child and the way I want to raise her, If it were me, and that was my child, and her grandma is cohabiting with a guy I do not know well enough to trust completely, here is what I will and will not do.

I will go visit my mother in law in her house on occasions; I will keep my child within my sight at all times. Then go back home with my child at my side there will never be a sleep over in grandma’s house. I will not expose my child to the fighting that is going on between those two; I will refer to the man as grandma’s friend and nothing more. Again, I will not expose my child to the premarital co habitation by a loved one (such as grandma as a model) as normal so I will keep that to myself as much as possible.

If my mother in law wants to visit along with her boyfriend then she is welcome to do so. However, no staying over while he is with her. I will never leave my child in her care, as long as there is a possibility of a boyfriend (him or another) showing up, good or bad that is a risk I will never be willing to take. Remember she knows him only as much as he wants her to know him, and there might be other stuff he has not disclosed to her yet.  In any case it is possible to turn one’s life around and mistakes can be made by an old man of 100 as well as by a teen. However while adults can make their own decisions, it is up to the parents to protect children, from being exposed to certain realities until they are capable to handle it properly. This duty is more pronounced and difficult to accomplish in the rearing of Children in a Christian ethics. It’s the same as parental control of what children watch on TV: If I am not going to bring certain people to my home to meet my children, I sure as heck will not allow them to enter and meet my children via TV. I hope you understand, there are certain situations you can control without taking drastic measures such as disconnecting any contact with her grandma or without giving in to all the grandma's demands and lifestyles thereby compromising your parental responsibility as well as your Christian integrity.
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 10:20:22 PM »

Now I don't judge him.
Seems to me that you already have.

Please give me your definition of Judgement. To me is, to not have an opinion on how someone lives his own life. But the potential of that person's doings, crossing over to my own family life, gives me a reason to put a fence right there, and say "live your life as you please, just leave my family out of it". Is that judgement?

Let's look at your words immediately leading up to your statement that you don't judge him:

If the guy slept with both his wife's sisters and her daughter even if it was close to 20 years ago, he was still close to 40. That is not "youth". At this age (in my opinion) someone is very mature and aware of his actions. And if he is rotten enough to do something like that, I doubt his demons will leave him alone at any age, no matter how old he is.
How is this not a judgment of him?

Consider also the title you attached to this thread, where you call the guy a pervert. How is that not a judgment?

Stop judging people for judging people.
Stop judging people for judging people for judging people.

See how far we can take this if you really want to. Wink
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 01:00:49 AM »

Whether you use crude terms or not, to address an issue a perosn has, it doesn't mean there is judgement occuring.

I think you may be right.

Still, it's hard for me to figure out sometimes what's an acceptable common-sense decision and what's a judgement consisting solely of my own fears or temper.  Sad

I think the issue with judging is when it comes to you determining the fate of their soul, thus judgement in the "final" sense.  Anything other than this hubris could probably be labeled as discernment just as easily as it could be judgement. 

The moment we take action on a fact that is judgement. We must have passed judgement in some way to be able to do that. Stepping off a curb to cross the road -- you've judged the road to be safe to cross etc.

When Christians use the term, they usually want to convey that the individual isn't being very 'nice' to, or about, another individual.
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 01:39:55 AM »

Bottom line is  as long as I can trust my wife

Another Opus!

And I can't blame it on Clara this time . . .

I might have to reconsider one of my claims to fame among the men of the place not to be named.

Pray that my heart remain dumb to the mumblings of its deceitful tongue!

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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 02:19:07 AM »

Bottom line is  as long as I can trust my wife

Another Opus!

And I can't blame it on Clara this time . . .

I might have to reconsider one of my claims to fame among the men of the place not to be named.

Pray that my heart remain dumb to the mumblings of its deceitful tongue!

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Haters: cryptic enough?

I'm not a hater but, yes, damn cryptic!
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 02:28:12 AM »

LOL Orthonorm, I omited the "if I were you" part and ended up having a wife to trust lol  along with her sisters.

and on the rest , yes thou art as criptic as ever Grin

though hater I am not  angel
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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 02:47:56 AM »

Now I don't judge him.
Seems to me that you already have.

Please give me your definition of Judgement. To me is, to not have an opinion on how someone lives his own life. But the potential of that person's doings, crossing over to my own family life, gives me a reason to put a fence right there, and say "live your life as you please, just leave my family out of it". Is that judgement?

Let's look at your words immediately leading up to your statement that you don't judge him:

If the guy slept with both his wife's sisters and her daughter even if it was close to 20 years ago, he was still close to 40. That is not "youth". At this age (in my opinion) someone is very mature and aware of his actions. And if he is rotten enough to do something like that, I doubt his demons will leave him alone at any age, no matter how old he is.
How is this not a judgment of him?

Consider also the title you attached to this thread, where you call the guy a pervert. How is that not a judgment?

Stop judging people for judging people.
Stop judging people for judging people for judging people.

See how far we can take this if you really want to. Wink
Speaking more fully about this now that I have the time: What I speak of as judgment on this thread is the act of disparaging one's person by attaching to him such labels as "pervert" or "rotten". According to this definition, it's not a judgment to say that you, athos, feel threatened by this guy and don't want your kids spending any time with him, for that's merely a statement of how you feel. No one can deny that you feel that way, and I'm not going to counsel you to do something that makes you feel threatened. (Pointing out the judgmental tone in one's words is also not a judgment of one's person per se.) Where I think you may be judging the man is those places where you call him a pervert or rotten, for those are statements not of his conduct or of his way of life but of his ontology--the very nature of who he is.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 02:48:44 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2011, 02:54:21 AM »

Hard to say on this one because it would be really weird in consideration it was his sister in law.... Yes pervert, but not a child molester.

I dunno...  If you feel there is a risk, trust your gut. 
Was it all consented on every female's account?
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2011, 09:04:31 AM »

Bottom line is  as long as I can trust my wife

Another Opus!

And I can't blame it on Clara this time . . .

I might have to reconsider one of my claims to fame among the men of the place not to be named.

Pray that my heart remain dumb to the mumblings of its deceitful tongue!

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No, telling us about Opus and Clara is TMI, silly.
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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 10:13:42 AM »

Hey, I for one was deeply wounded by the mistaken identity! I'm neurotic enough in such areas without playing the Crying Game MMO, thankyouverymuch. Angry

These issues should be aired, it's for the good of the forum.
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 10:23:03 AM »

Hey, I for one was deeply wounded by the mistaken identity! I'm neurotic enough in such areas without playing the Crying Game MMO, thankyouverymuch. Angry

These issues should be aired, it's for the good of the forum.
Are you posting to the right thread? Huh This response seems very much out of context.
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 10:27:11 AM »

Now I don't judge him.
Seems to me that you already have.

Please give me your definition of Judgement. To me is, to not have an opinion on how someone lives his own life. But the potential of that person's doings, crossing over to my own family life, gives me a reason to put a fence right there, and say "live your life as you please, just leave my family out of it". Is that judgement?

Let's look at your words immediately leading up to your statement that you don't judge him:

If the guy slept with both his wife's sisters and her daughter even if it was close to 20 years ago, he was still close to 40. That is not "youth". At this age (in my opinion) someone is very mature and aware of his actions. And if he is rotten enough to do something like that, I doubt his demons will leave him alone at any age, no matter how old he is.
How is this not a judgment of him?

Consider also the title you attached to this thread, where you call the guy a pervert. How is that not a judgment?

From my point of view, I'm mentioning the word "pervert" with the same mindset as as saying that someone who fell in the water is now "wet". I have no animosity towards that guy. I'm not yelling moral judgements in his face, or pointing at him in public. I'm separating the man from the demons that tempted him into what he did. We are all equal in the eyes of God. We are all sinners. In that perspective I'd never consider saying, or even thinking that I'm better than him. I won't be his judge. God will. However I do want to believe that I'm trying to live a life that leads to salvation, while he thinks he's already saved. In my orthodox perspective he hasn't repented, he hasn't gone to confession, he doesn't go to church or take communion,he isn't living the kind of life that would drive those demons away. And me and my family have our own demons, our own temptations, we do not need his as well. We do not need to duel in a sick environment, especially when he is not even part of our family.  Everyone is rot in certain ways, some passions that have established themselves so deep that make it almost impossible to fight them off. If you don't take care of your teeth, they rot, same with our souls. Of course God's forgiveness is greater than any rot and sickness we may have. But we do relapse and fall into the same sins as we did before. I just don't want my family to be around when or if that guy relapses.

BTW PeterTheAleut I'm sad that you pulled my thread to this part of the forum. If you didn't understand my intentions, I signed into Orthodox Christianity forums to discuss things within a Christian Orthodox perspective. If that wasn't the case, I'd post this in any other forum on the internet.
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 10:35:02 AM »

Hey, I for one was deeply wounded by the mistaken identity! I'm neurotic enough in such areas without playing the Crying Game MMO, thankyouverymuch. Angry

These issues should be aired, it's for the good of the forum.
Are you posting to the right thread? Huh This response seems very much out of context.
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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2011, 11:05:02 AM »

Whether you use crude terms or not, to address an issue a perosn has, it doesn't mean there is judgement occuring.

I think you may be right.

Still, it's hard for me to figure out sometimes what's an acceptable common-sense decision and what's a judgement consisting solely of my own fears or temper.  Sad

I think the issue with judging is when it comes to you determining the fate of their soul, thus judgement in the "final" sense.  Anything other than this hubris could probably be labeled as discernment just as easily as it could be judgement. 

The moment we take action on a fact that is judgement. We must have passed judgement in some way to be able to do that. Stepping off a curb to cross the road -- you've judged the road to be safe to cross etc.

When Christians use the term, they usually want to convey that the individual isn't being very 'nice' to, or about, another individual.

I think your definition works, though i generally separate out the sins.  When you aren't nice to someone there is often judgement, or at the very least hard-hardheartedness involved, but I would usually separate out the 'not being nice' from the judgement.  Both can be done separate from one another.  I can treat you well but still judge you, or I can treat you rudely without having any judgement for you whatsoever.

But it really doesn't matter.  This is just the way I view things.  In the end we are probably better off concentrating on doing the right things rather than worrying about the bad things.
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2011, 11:48:41 AM »

Bottom line is  as long as I can trust my wife

Another Opus!

And I can't blame it on Clara this time . . .

I might have to reconsider one of my claims to fame among the men of the place not to be named.

Pray that my heart remain dumb to the mumblings of its deceitful tongue!

</3*


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Haters: cryptic enough?






No, telling us about Opus and Clara is TMI, silly.

I have to give the non-Platinum members of the orthonorm Fan Club a chance. Unfortunately, not everyone here lives for each new syllable I form in the universe.
 

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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2011, 11:56:41 AM »

He was an adult and so was she. He might be a lout for cheating on his wife, but he's not a pervert.

Basically, your mom is an adult and can do what she wants. I suggest that if you dont like what she's doing, tell her so and do what you can, but tell her what is unacceptable and let her deal with her own consequences. Its painful but really, you cant force her to do anything and she'll do what she wants. The kicker is that you have a family and have to look out for them.

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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2011, 11:58:43 AM »

Now I don't judge him.
Seems to me that you already have.

Please give me your definition of Judgement. To me is, to not have an opinion on how someone lives his own life. But the potential of that person's doings, crossing over to my own family life, gives me a reason to put a fence right there, and say "live your life as you please, just leave my family out of it". Is that judgement?

Let's look at your words immediately leading up to your statement that you don't judge him:

If the guy slept with both his wife's sisters and her daughter even if it was close to 20 years ago, he was still close to 40. That is not "youth". At this age (in my opinion) someone is very mature and aware of his actions. And if he is rotten enough to do something like that, I doubt his demons will leave him alone at any age, no matter how old he is.
How is this not a judgment of him?

Consider also the title you attached to this thread, where you call the guy a pervert. How is that not a judgment?

Stop judging people for judging people.
Stop judging people for judging people for judging people.

See how far we can take this if you really want to. Wink

If we stuck to our own language as Germanic speakers this would be much clearer.

Judgment came to replace in OE the word that gives us our own doom.

If we were going to choose a Latin derivative to exchange, damn would be best. Sounds closer and still echoes closer in meaning.

FWIW.

But using judgement to mean broadly discern is certainly not what Christ nor anyone would have in mind.

Sheesh, read Proverbs, it is a book of a discernment and note how openly and without apology the author(s) ask us "judge" others.
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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2011, 01:58:10 PM »

To judge or not to judge:

http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/articles/209/-judge-or-not-judge/
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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2011, 07:05:40 PM »

He was an adult and so was she. He might be a lout for cheating on his wife, but he's not a pervert.


The step daughter boundaries, whether (just) an adult or not, i would say are perverted. "Characterized by sexually abnormal and unacceptable practices or tendencies. Having been corrupted or distorted from its original course, meaning, or state." If the norm is that sexual boundaries with any kind of daughters are not crossed, then that would constitute a pervertion of the norm.
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« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2011, 11:24:49 AM »

He was an adult and so was she. He might be a lout for cheating on his wife, but he's not a pervert.


The step daughter boundaries, whether (just) an adult or not, i would say are perverted. "Characterized by sexually abnormal and unacceptable practices or tendencies. Having been corrupted or distorted from its original course, meaning, or state." If the norm is that sexual boundaries with any kind of daughters are not crossed, then that would constitute a pervertion of the norm.

This is true, but the boundaries, at least according to secular society, if not the Church, are fluid. Many here have protested that consensual relations between adults cannot be described as perverted, which works if one adopts the norms of our society, which seems to have settled on the following definition for permissible sexual behavior: must be consensual, must be between adults (who are by definition the only bodies capable of providing informed consent), must not violate bonds of trust (adultery is bad because it breaks trust, but open marriage is OK because no trust is violated). According to this definition, the notion of inviolable boundaries, like never sleeping with your step-daughter, are nothing more than an anachronism inherited from traditional Christian morality. You may be right that most people today would continue to respect these boundaries, but only out of sheer inertia. A morality based entirely on this notion of consent, with no notion of inherent rightness or wrongness in sexual behavior, cannot hope to defend such archaic rules as not sleeping with your adopted child, provided everyone involved provides informed consent.

According to the norms of the Church, consent or trust between persons have in general very little to do with whether a sexual act is licit or illicit. What is far more important is the relationship of the two partners and the manner in which they carry out intercourse. There is no such thing as open marriage, for example: once a man and a woman have promised themselves to each other, there is no option for either one to sleep with other men or women, with or without the consent of both partners. This is because the two persons involved are not the only parties to the contract: God is also a party, and He has made His position on the sanctity of marriage very clear. Likewise with the step-daughter boundaries: when you adopt an adult daughter, she moves from the set of permissible potential sexual partners to the set of impermissible partners. Before, you could have married her; after, you cannot.That is all there is to it. It doesn't matter if she consents to have sex with you, and it doesn't matter if your new wife knows about it and also consents. If you have sex with her, you violate the bond of marriage and the bond of family, since these bonds are set by God and God does not renegotiate boundaries.

So, the OP is right to call this man perverted according to the norms of the Church, but it's debatable whether he's perverted according to the norms of society. One would need to be au courant with the latest fashions in morality to be able to resolve the latter satisfactorily, since norms seem to be changing with each new generation. In terms of judging this man, however, we should all remember that it is only by the Grace of God that we have not fallen into the same sins.
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« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2011, 11:43:36 AM »

He was an adult and so was she. He might be a lout for cheating on his wife, but he's not a pervert.


The step daughter boundaries, whether (just) an adult or not, i would say are perverted. "Characterized by sexually abnormal and unacceptable practices or tendencies. Having been corrupted or distorted from its original course, meaning, or state." If the norm is that sexual boundaries with any kind of daughters are not crossed, then that would constitute a pervertion of the norm.

This is true, but the boundaries, at least according to secular society, if not the Church, are fluid. Many here have protested that consensual relations between adults cannot be described as perverted, which works if one adopts the norms of our society, which seems to have settled on the following definition for permissible sexual behavior: must be consensual, must be between adults (who are by definition the only bodies capable of providing informed consent), must not violate bonds of trust (adultery is bad because it breaks trust, but open marriage is OK because no trust is violated). According to this definition, the notion of inviolable boundaries, like never sleeping with your step-daughter, are nothing more than an anachronism inherited from traditional Christian morality. You may be right that most people today would continue to respect these boundaries, but only out of sheer inertia. A morality based entirely on this notion of consent, with no notion of inherent rightness or wrongness in sexual behavior, cannot hope to defend such archaic rules as not sleeping with your adopted child, provided everyone involved provides informed consent.

According to the norms of the Church, consent or trust between persons have in general very little to do with whether a sexual act is licit or illicit. What is far more important is the relationship of the two partners and the manner in which they carry out intercourse. There is no such thing as open marriage, for example: once a man and a woman have promised themselves to each other, there is no option for either one to sleep with other men or women, with or without the consent of both partners. This is because the two persons involved are not the only parties to the contract: God is also a party, and He has made His position on the sanctity of marriage very clear. Likewise with the step-daughter boundaries: when you adopt an adult daughter, she moves from the set of permissible potential sexual partners to the set of impermissible partners. Before, you could have married her; after, you cannot.That is all there is to it. It doesn't matter if she consents to have sex with you, and it doesn't matter if your new wife knows about it and also consents. If you have sex with her, you violate the bond of marriage and the bond of family, since these bonds are set by God and God does not renegotiate boundaries.

So, the OP is right to call this man perverted according to the norms of the Church, but it's debatable whether he's perverted according to the norms of society. One would need to be au courant with the latest fashions in morality to be able to resolve the latter satisfactorily, since norms seem to be changing with each new generation. In terms of judging this man, however, we should all remember that it is only by the Grace of God that we have not fallen into the same sins.
We cant judge him according to the laws of a Church that he does not belong to. The guy is an immoral adulterer, but not a pervert, according to the laws that he would acknowledge.

Im not apologizing for the guy, but its obvious that the OP has cast judgement upon him even though the OP uses the passe' "Im not being judgemental but....." line.


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« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2011, 12:17:10 PM »

Two debates have crossed here. One is whether or not pointing out somebody's perversion or immorality constitutes "judgment" or "discernment"; the second is whether Orthodox Christian norms of behavior may be applied to those outside the Church. Regarding the former, it's hard to say what the OP intended by using terms like "pervert", but I see no reason to think he was not simply discerning this man's objectively perverse behavior (when measured against traditional norms), rather than arrogating to himself judgment over the man's spiritual status, which is God's prerogative. In order to determine whether or not he was judging in the latter sense, I think we would need to be able to see into his heart, but we cannot.

Regarding the latter, you sort of made my point again. Whether or not this man is "perverted" as opposed to merely "immoral" depends on the highly fluid norms of contemporary society. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP grew up to think of this behavior as perverted, while the other man in question grew up to think of it as immoral at best. I think it suffices to say that according to Orthodox norms, this behavior is perverted, and that on an Orthodox forum the OP is allowed to assume that others share the same assumptions. I'm not aware that the Church applies different moral norms to those outside the Church. What is certainly true is that those who break God's law in ignorance will be judged more leniently than those who do so in knowledge of the law, but that is a matter of judgment in the second sense, as I outlined above.
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« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2011, 01:46:30 PM »

He was an adult and so was she. He might be a lout for cheating on his wife, but he's not a pervert.


The step daughter boundaries, whether (just) an adult or not, i would say are perverted. "Characterized by sexually abnormal and unacceptable practices or tendencies. Having been corrupted or distorted from its original course, meaning, or state." If the norm is that sexual boundaries with any kind of daughters are not crossed, then that would constitute a pervertion of the norm.

This is true, but the boundaries, at least according to secular society, if not the Church, are fluid. Many here have protested that consensual relations between adults cannot be described as perverted, which works if one adopts the norms of our society, which seems to have settled on the following definition for permissible sexual behavior: must be consensual, must be between adults (who are by definition the only bodies capable of providing informed consent), must not violate bonds of trust (adultery is bad because it breaks trust, but open marriage is OK because no trust is violated). According to this definition, the notion of inviolable boundaries, like never sleeping with your step-daughter, are nothing more than an anachronism inherited from traditional Christian morality. You may be right that most people today would continue to respect these boundaries, but only out of sheer inertia. A morality based entirely on this notion of consent, with no notion of inherent rightness or wrongness in sexual behavior, cannot hope to defend such archaic rules as not sleeping with your adopted child, provided everyone involved provides informed consent.

According to the norms of the Church, consent or trust between persons have in general very little to do with whether a sexual act is licit or illicit. What is far more important is the relationship of the two partners and the manner in which they carry out intercourse. There is no such thing as open marriage, for example: once a man and a woman have promised themselves to each other, there is no option for either one to sleep with other men or women, with or without the consent of both partners. This is because the two persons involved are not the only parties to the contract: God is also a party, and He has made His position on the sanctity of marriage very clear. Likewise with the step-daughter boundaries: when you adopt an adult daughter, she moves from the set of permissible potential sexual partners to the set of impermissible partners. Before, you could have married her; after, you cannot.That is all there is to it. It doesn't matter if she consents to have sex with you, and it doesn't matter if your new wife knows about it and also consents. If you have sex with her, you violate the bond of marriage and the bond of family, since these bonds are set by God and God does not renegotiate boundaries.

So, the OP is right to call this man perverted according to the norms of the Church, but it's debatable whether he's perverted according to the norms of society. One would need to be au courant with the latest fashions in morality to be able to resolve the latter satisfactorily, since norms seem to be changing with each new generation. In terms of judging this man, however, we should all remember that it is only by the Grace of God that we have not fallen into the same sins.
We cant judge him according to the laws of a Church that he does not belong to. The guy is an immoral adulterer, but not a pervert, according to the laws that he would acknowledge.
But what if we believe the laws of the Church are the laws of God? Certainly then we are qualified to judge as perverted even the behavior of those outside the Church, are we not?
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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2011, 07:25:46 PM »

No, the scripture says to judge those within the church but not outside of it.

1 Corinthians 5:12 & 13
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? God will judge outsiders. "Expel that wicked man."

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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2011, 07:48:24 PM »


But what if we believe the laws of the Church are the laws of God? Certainly then we are qualified to judge as perverted even the behavior of those outside the Church, are we not?
If what you're saying is that we can judge certain behaviours to be perversions, then I would agree. It is not a judgement to say "J**** had sex with a six-year-old girl. That's perverted." To call down God's wrath upon J**** would be judging him (i.e. setting oneself up as judge), and if he is outside the Church we would need to leave that to God. Even within the Church there is a process to be followed in such cases.
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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2011, 07:52:50 PM »

No, the scripture says to judge those within the church but not outside of it.

1 Corinthians 5:12 & 13
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? God will judge outsiders. "Expel that wicked man."



I think the context here are sins committed in public, e.g. couples living together in fornication. The community has a responsibility in such cases to call the offenders to repentance or else to expel them from communion. But this kind of judgment does not involve determining their destiny after the Last Judgment.
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« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2011, 07:55:14 PM »

No, the scripture says to judge those within the church but not outside of it.

1 Corinthians 5:12 & 13
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? God will judge outsiders. "Expel that wicked man."



I think the context here are sins committed in public, e.g. couples living together in fornication. The community has a responsibility in such cases to call the offenders to repentance or else to expel them from communion. But this kind of judgment does not involve determining their destiny after the Last Judgment.

I realise the context and still posted it because it differentiates between those inside and outside of the church. Not determining their destiny -- good grief! Just making a call on their behaviour that's all.
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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2011, 09:00:08 PM »

No, the scripture says to judge those within the church but not outside of it.

1 Corinthians 5:12 & 13
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? God will judge outsiders. "Expel that wicked man."



I think the context here are sins committed in public, e.g. couples living together in fornication. The community has a responsibility in such cases to call the offenders to repentance or else to expel them from communion. But this kind of judgment does not involve determining their destiny after the Last Judgment.

I realise the context and still posted it because it differentiates between those inside and outside of the church. Not determining their destiny -- good grief! Just making a call on their behaviour that's all.

Sorry if I misunderstood your intention. Actually, I think your post was very apt. Many seem to think that not judging involves not reproving or not even discerning good behavior from bad, but you showed in fact quite the opposite is true.
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« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2011, 12:05:36 PM »

What Im trying to say is that if you start stating the rules of the Church to this man, you're wasting your breath (unless he is of the Church or was...). To convince people of anything you have to use arguments that people acknowledge as valid. This man would just roll his eyes and walk away if you start quoting scripture and he does not care.

Its the same thing as slamming an athiest using scripture. Its ridiculous.

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« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2011, 01:44:51 PM »

I think the discussion here diverted too much towards what is judgement and what is not, which is something I do not understand.
I don't care how my decisions are viewed by secular minded people. We do not speak the same language we do not share the same beliefs. Its like flying on different airplanes and trying to meet each other in mid air. Not going to happen.
As simply as I can put it, its one thing to not see people of fluid moral views as equals, and another thing to hang out with them and make them part of your family just to make a point. There HAS to be a level of security inside the family, both physical and spiritual.

In any way, I'm happy to read your thoughts, even though my mother in law has just left the guy on her own accord so there won't be any more drama or having to explain why he won't see any more of us.


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« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2011, 07:07:34 PM »

Its the same thing as slamming an athiest using scripture. Its ridiculous.

Always makes me cringe ...
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« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2011, 05:49:33 AM »

It's very difficult for me to judge consensual adult relationships. A lot of bizarre consensual couplings are in a lot of people's proverbial closets. Here is the big thing: was it consensual? Do you feel he respects women/people? If either of these answers are no, don't let others close to him.
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« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2011, 06:27:34 AM »

I think you're missing the elephants in the room which are, step-daughter and wife's sisters!
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« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2011, 06:35:25 PM »

Firstly, there is nothing in this man's history - as laid out in the original post - to suggest that he is in any way a danger to children.  He had sex with his wife's (presumably adult) sisters and his adult step-daughter.  These do represent some serious moral failings in him, at the time that he did these things.  But can we not overcome our sins?  St. Moses the Black was a brutal thief, adulterer, and murderer.  Yet, he changed.  He became a new man in Christ.  I don't know how long ago this man committed his sexual immorality, but I do know that people can change. 

I've committed horrific sins in my own past, things that I am so very, very far from proud of.  If God judges me for the sins I've repented of, then I've no hope.
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« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2011, 06:59:53 AM »

Two debates have crossed here. One is whether or not pointing out somebody's perversion or immorality constitutes "judgment" or "discernment"; the second is whether Orthodox Christian norms of behavior may be applied to those outside the Church. Regarding the former, it's hard to say what the OP intended by using terms like "pervert", but I see no reason to think he was not simply discerning this man's objectively perverse behavior (when measured against traditional norms), rather than arrogating to himself judgment over the man's spiritual status, which is God's prerogative. In order to determine whether or not he was judging in the latter sense, I think we would need to be able to see into his heart, but we cannot.

Regarding the latter, you sort of made my point again. Whether or not this man is "perverted" as opposed to merely "immoral" depends on the highly fluid norms of contemporary society. I wouldn't be surprised if the OP grew up to think of this behavior as perverted, while the other man in question grew up to think of it as immoral at best. I think it suffices to say that according to Orthodox norms, this behavior is perverted, and that on an Orthodox forum the OP is allowed to assume that others share the same assumptions. I'm not aware that the Church applies different moral norms to those outside the Church. What is certainly true is that those who break God's law in ignorance will be judged more leniently than those who do so in knowledge of the law, but that is a matter of judgment in the second sense, as I outlined above.

In a personal opinion though, after re-reading the OP, I think the guy is a pervert.  Any time you sleep with a mom and then her daughter ESPECIALLY when you are married to the mom and it is your step daughter - that sounds pretty perverted to me.  I don't care if she was over 18.

I would classify this as an perverted.
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