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Author Topic: Would this be an accurate description?  (Read 2112 times) Average Rating: 0
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DeeperFaith
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« on: November 29, 2011, 01:58:50 PM »

I saw this description of the EO's beliefs on salvation on another site. Is this a fair description of the EO belief? If not, could someone pick out the inaccuracies for me?

Orthodoxy is a Christian-Judeo derivative that reinterprets key Scripture verses in such a way that works become essential to reach heaven. They believe faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation, but where Christianity teaches that becoming more Christ-like is the result of Christ’s influence in a believer’s life. Orthodoxy teaches that it is a part of the salvation process. As a result, they believe if that process (called theosis) is not performed appropriately, a worshiper can lose his/her salvation. After death, the devout live in an intermediate state where this theosis can be completed. Those who have belief but did not accomplish sufficient progress in theosis are sent to a temporary “direful condition” and will go to hell unless the living devout pray and complete acts of mercy on their behalf. After final judgment, the devout are sent to heaven and the others to hell. Heaven and hell are not locations, but reactions to being in the presence of God, as there is nowhere that He is not present. For Christ-followers, God’s presence is paradise, but for the unsaved, being with God is eternal torment.
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 02:32:37 PM »

I saw this description of the EO's beliefs on salvation on another site. Is this a fair description of the EO belief? If not, could someone pick out the inaccuracies for me?
I'm having trouble finding anything that is either accurate or fair. What site is teaching such drivel?

For starters:
Quote
Orthodoxy is a Christian-Judeo derivative that reinterprets key Scripture verses
Orthodox Christianity has been around since Pentecost. It's not a "derivative". It is other Christians who have seen fit to "reinterpret key Scripture verses". Do I really need to continue?
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 02:52:55 PM »

They believe faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation,

True.  But then the link in the OP falls into the hands of No True Scotsman ....

Quote
but where Christianity teaches that becoming more Christ-like is the result of Christ’s influence in a believer’s life. Orthodoxy teaches ...

Overall there are tiny nuggets of what we believe in the OP, but they are distorted and extrapolated into nothing like what we believe.

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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 10:29:02 PM »

It reads like someone who started off with the assumption that "Orthodoxy believes the opposite of Calvinism." Then the author actually looked at an Orthodox text (or maybe listened to a podcast). But since he believed he already knew what he was going to hear, he didn't really pay attention. So he picked up some correct words and half-sentences but completely missed how they related to each other and then went back and just hung them on his initial assumption.

The paragraph is so wrong its impossible to just 'pick out the inaccuracies'. The very conceptual framework it assumes is as alien to Patristic thought as trying to Copernican astronomy to someone who assumes the stars are holes poked in the Moon's cloak.

About the best I can do as a starter set is two points:
1) Salvation is not a 'thing' that one can possess or lose. It is a process God performs on us if we let him.
2) Orthodox do believe that God created humans with free will, and He continues to allow us to exercise that will if we so choose.
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2011, 02:37:58 AM »

Sorry; I meant to include a link but I forgot. Here's where I got it: http://www.gotquestions.org/how-to-get-to-heaven.html

I had entered "orthodoxy" in the search feature of the site, and clicked on the link about what different religions say about getting to heaven. Their answer regarding Orthodoxy seemed a bit snarky (to me, anyway) so I thought I'd toss it into the den of Orthodox and see what happened. LOL

I appreciate the responses. My inquiry into Orthodoxy is real, though. I didn't post this to be irritating, lest someone think that.
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 01:09:07 AM »

May I suggest that you read "The Orthodox Church" written by a young convert Timothy Ware who has since become a monk and then a Bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church.  He explains in direct simple terms the basic beliefs of the Orthodox Church once you read this very basic text about Orthodoxy you will be able to identify where the article is incorrect.

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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 01:44:13 AM »

Sorry; I meant to include a link but I forgot. Here's where I got it: http://www.gotquestions.org/how-to-get-to-heaven.html

I had entered "orthodoxy" in the search feature of the site, and clicked on the link about what different religions say about getting to heaven. Their answer regarding Orthodoxy seemed a bit snarky (to me, anyway) so I thought I'd toss it into the den of Orthodox and see what happened. LOL

I appreciate the responses. My inquiry into Orthodoxy is real, though. I didn't post this to be irritating, lest someone think that.

Good to hear.  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2011, 04:12:46 AM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.

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« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2011, 04:42:50 AM »

The Gospel is, "Follow me and you will be saved." That's what He said to the fishermen. No one is disputing this and anyone can understand it. The complexities only come when you begin asking about the fate of Alice who doesn't believe anymore or Bob who says he believes but has a life full of sin he doesn't want to repent of.

That's the point at which curious minds begin peaking behind the simple statements of Scripture in an attempt to find logical implications and relationships to try to suss out answers to questions like the status of Bob and Alice. This is where people begin to disagree and the complexity of arguments piles up (do some research into the "Lordship Salvation" debate or the ongoing feud between Baptist John Piper and Anglican NT Wright if you want to see how convoluted this all gets in Protestant circles).

But if you just sweep that all away and get to the heart of the matter, forget about trying to account for Alice and Bob, and just determine to trust Him like a child and "Whatever He says to you do it," the way into Heaven is exactly the same.
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« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2011, 09:39:56 AM »

I saw this description of the EO's beliefs on salvation on another site. Is this a fair description of the EO belief? If not, could someone pick out the inaccuracies for me?

The web site you got this from is promoting a lie as being the truth and telling half truths about Orthodoxy to make it appear to be a lie.

You would do better to go to Orthodox sources for your information on Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Church (previously mentioned) is a pretty good book for people enquiring into the faith. I would also suggest anything by Fr Hopko (written or podcast, especially from his "Speaking the Truth in Love" and "Worship in Spirit and Truth" podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio.
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« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 10:07:44 AM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.

Frustrated?
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2011, 10:57:50 AM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.

Frustrated?
Be nice. We've all been there.
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2011, 11:49:47 AM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.

Frustrated?
Be nice. We've all been there.

Apologies if that came off as snide.  That was not the intention. 
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 11:52:40 AM »

Ok. Np.
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 12:16:57 PM »

Quote
Orthodoxy is a Christian-Judeo derivative that reinterprets key Scripture verses in such a way that works become essential to reach heaven. They believe faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation, but where Christianity teaches that becoming more Christ-like is the result of Christ’s influence in a believer’s life. Orthodoxy teaches that it is a part of the salvation process. As a result, they believe if that process (called theosis) is not performed appropriately, a worshiper can lose his/her salvation. After death, the devout live in an intermediate state where this theosis can be completed. Those who have belief but did not accomplish sufficient progress in theosis are sent to a temporary “direful condition” and will go to hell unless the living devout pray and complete acts of mercy on their behalf. After final judgment, the devout are sent to heaven and the others to hell. Heaven and hell are not locations, but reactions to being in the presence of God, as there is nowhere that He is not present. For Christ-followers, God’s presence is paradise, but for the unsaved, being with God is eternal torment
usually if someone is trying to be biased, it helps to look like you're not. This explanation would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2011, 12:57:27 PM »

here's a short article on orthodox wiki:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Soteriology
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« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2011, 01:35:02 PM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.



Especially since trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board is probably one of the worst ways.

Go to a parish.

Frankly everyone should just do the following:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three

You can skip listening to the third part, but might as well listen to what Fr. Thom has to say about teaching doctrine as such.

The first two links spell out clearly what seems to be a reasonable path to understanding Christianity and thus Orthodoxy when you find yourself in a crisis and probably also when not.

Yes, I have posted this before.
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« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2011, 07:16:47 PM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.



Especially since trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board is probably one of the worst ways.

Go to a parish.

Frankly everyone should just do the following:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three

You can skip listening to the third part, but might as well listen to what Fr. Thom has to say about teaching doctrine as such.

The first two links spell out clearly what seems to be a reasonable path to understanding Christianity and thus Orthodoxy when you find yourself in a crisis and probably also when not.

Yes, I have posted this before.

Deeper Faith might not be trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board alone.

Is that Fr Hopko again? You need to diversify
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2011, 07:21:47 PM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.



Especially since trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board is probably one of the worst ways.

Go to a parish.

Frankly everyone should just do the following:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three

You can skip listening to the third part, but might as well listen to what Fr. Thom has to say about teaching doctrine as such.

The first two links spell out clearly what seems to be a reasonable path to understanding Christianity and thus Orthodoxy when you find yourself in a crisis and probably also when not.

Yes, I have posted this before.

Deeper Faith might not be trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board alone.

Is that Fr Hopko again? You need to diversify

fr hopko is a great teacher for understanding the faith....
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2011, 07:27:55 PM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.



Especially since trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board is probably one of the worst ways.

Go to a parish.

Frankly everyone should just do the following:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three

You can skip listening to the third part, but might as well listen to what Fr. Thom has to say about teaching doctrine as such.

The first two links spell out clearly what seems to be a reasonable path to understanding Christianity and thus Orthodoxy when you find yourself in a crisis and probably also when not.

Yes, I have posted this before.

Deeper Faith might not be trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board alone.

Is that Fr Hopko again? You need to diversify

fr hopko is a great teacher for understanding the faith....


No doubt he probably is but if you're stuck on one person that can't be good.
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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2011, 08:17:25 PM »

I also listen to Fr. Stephen Freeman, Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick, Fr. Patrick Reardon, Met. Kallistos Ware, Fr. Gregory Hallam, Jenie Constantinou, Met. Anthony Bloom, Fr. Alexander Schmemann, Fr. John Meyendorff, Fr. John Romanides, Clark Carlton, Fr. Wilbur Ellsworth, Albert Rossi, Coptic Pope Shenouda and Bishop John Zizioulas to the extent I've read/heard them, John Sanidopoulos, and the guy who runs the Energetic Procession blog (most of the time).

orthonorm shares most of those as well as Frs. John Breck and Georges Florovsky whom I've not read at all.

And of course Fr. Giryus  Grin
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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2011, 08:33:51 PM »

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.

Is there anything "simple fisherman" about John 1?
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2011, 08:39:13 PM »

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.

Is there anything "simple fisherman" about John 1?
I would say, "yes" as long as you don't try to parse out all the philosophical implications which the word, "Logos" might carry.

And this goes to my point, Scripture encompasses both the simple fisherman and the great theologian. One must not exclude the other.
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2011, 11:33:27 PM »

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.

Is there anything "simple fisherman" about John 1?
I would say, "yes" as long as you don't try to parse out all the philosophical implications which the word, "Logos" might carry.

And this goes to my point, Scripture encompasses both the simple fisherman and the great theologian. One must not exclude the other.

This is one of the most beautiful aspects of our Faith. That we can say simply, "There are three things you must do: 1. Go to church, 2. say your prayers and 3. never forget God." but, in such simple instruction, there is truly an infinite depth to explore, and that we can enter the waters of God as deep as we are able, but there is no end to the unfathomable abyss that is the revelation of the Uncircumscribeable, who for our sake was circumscribed.
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2011, 11:40:56 PM »


Go to a parish.

best advise.  

I was blessed to have an older brother convert before me (from Calvinism),  I got to have some things explained that made it that much more beautiful for me and some great books recommended.  

Don't get me wrong I didn't go easily, all the usual disagreements.  The closer I got to converting, the louder my outcry.  Finally I had nothing left but relief, (I always hated TULIP  Grin)  

When I finally started going to a parish (the first was in Slavonic, he is ROCOR) I was already pretty much convinced, walking in and watching DL "We no longer knew whether we were in heaven or on earth,"  really applied.

I began attending an Antiochian Mission in English, we meet in a rented hall with no fixed Iconastasis (it has to be set up and taken down) and I still am so aware of how much more this small hall becomes every Sunday.    
      
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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2011, 12:16:07 AM »

Is that Fr Hopko again? You need to diversify
LMAO

And this goes to my point, Scripture encompasses both the simple fisherman and the great theologian. One must not exclude the other.
This is wonderful.
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« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2011, 12:31:25 AM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.



Especially since trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board is probably one of the worst ways.

Go to a parish.

Frankly everyone should just do the following:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three

You can skip listening to the third part, but might as well listen to what Fr. Thom has to say about teaching doctrine as such.

The first two links spell out clearly what seems to be a reasonable path to understanding Christianity and thus Orthodoxy when you find yourself in a crisis and probably also when not.

Yes, I have posted this before.

Deeper Faith might not be trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board alone.

Is that Fr Hopko again? You need to diversify

fr hopko is a great teacher for understanding the faith....


No doubt he probably is but if you're stuck on one person that can't be good.

I'll remember that line next time one of my relatives quotes Billy Graham. I'll throw it right out the window next time I quote Lewis or Chesterton.
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« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2011, 03:00:41 AM »

Thank you, everyone.

And, I'm not learning about Orthodoxy strictly from internet message boards. Well, not strictly.  I've listened to many of the AFR podcasts, from many different people and I think I get it. I'm a bit thick though, and often need it repeated. I do need to get some books. My intro to Orthodoxy actually came from a few women on a message board. I don't know any IRL EO, and frankly, I'm terrified to go to the local Greek Orthodox church because I've heard it's unwelcoming (yeah, I know, I know).

I do think I'm getting there, though. Today I actually listened to Ave Maria without freaking out about a song about Mary, so that's something. Wink

In all seriousness, I do feel I'm being drawn in to the EOC, but I think it's going to be a slow draw. For me, that's a good thing. It's all so overwhelming; I can barely remember to say the prayers. When I do, though, I'm so blessed. You'd think that alone would keep the prayers in the forefront of my mind. I'm sort of standing at the door, peeking through the cracks.

Thank you all for your patience.  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2011, 03:06:02 AM »

You're welcome.  Smiley

Let us know if you have anymore questions.
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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2011, 07:08:45 PM »

And, I'm not learning about Orthodoxy strictly from internet message boards. Well, not strictly.  I've listened to many of the AFR podcasts, from many different people and I think I get it. I'm a bit thick though, and often need it repeated. I do need to get some books. My intro to Orthodoxy actually came from a few women on a message board. I don't know any IRL EO, and frankly, I'm terrified to go to the local Greek Orthodox church because I've heard it's unwelcoming (yeah, I know, I know).

Only one way to find out....

That passage was a pretty uncharitable Protestant's-eye view of Orthodoxy.  It contains enough truth and half truth to avoid being a complete lie.  But it's not the truth either.

It's difficult to understand Orthodoxy from a Protestant framework.  There are just too many issues to untangle -- original sin vs. original guilt, essence and energies, person and nature, etc.  Add to that the problem of Prots coloring a lot of our practices through Rome-tinted lenses, and you just aren't going to get a really accurate picture.  But even with all of that, the passage you cited was pretty much a hit piece.
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2011, 09:05:58 PM »

Deeper Faith, you're not going to get a "straight" answer to anything you ask. I mean, in terms of people answering you sincerely you will but the interpretations and explainations become so entangled after a while you might lose the will to live and start believing the convoluted rhetoric rather than the truth.

It's difficult to see that it's the same gospel that Jesus taught to simple fishermen.



Especially since trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board is probably one of the worst ways.

Go to a parish.

Frankly everyone should just do the following:

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_1

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_two

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/teaching_doctrine_in_the_world_we_live_in_today_part_three

You can skip listening to the third part, but might as well listen to what Fr. Thom has to say about teaching doctrine as such.

The first two links spell out clearly what seems to be a reasonable path to understanding Christianity and thus Orthodoxy when you find yourself in a crisis and probably also when not.

Yes, I have posted this before.

Deeper Faith might not be trying to understand Orthodoxy via a message board alone.

Is that Fr Hopko again? You need to diversify

See Vollnut's apology. Fr. Thom like it or not simply has the largest body of readily available material out there. He knows how to teach and knows what he is talking about, those who disagree on some things he says, have to admit on the whole he is correct. If you don't . . .

If you listened to those suggestions, you would have realized, really Fr. Thom doesn't think people need much else than what he suggests and ain't all Patristics and systematic theology.

So, no I don't think think suggesting Being as Communion is helpful nor is On the Incarnation.

The New Testament within the context set out by Fr. Thom is excellent though, especially those Gospels.

It changes the discussion that is endless about every icon, hymn, etc in Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Church is first and foremost about Christ Crucified. If you don't get that and start from there and attend liturgy without complaint or criticism for a while and are praying, ain't much gonna happen. Probably.

But really Fr. Thom says it better.

All those "Prostetant" arguments are simply side stepped.
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« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2011, 04:59:32 AM »

1.Bible came through Eastern orthodox Church to people so Orthodoxy interprets others reinterpret...for beginning.
Orthodoxy year 33 established by Jesus
Protestantism year 1500+ started by Luther
Neo protestantism year 1800
Neo neo protestantism year 1900
Neo neo neo protestantism .... in the furture, not here yet since it will be a invention as Protestantsim and neo protestantism...

I saw this description of the EO's beliefs on salvation on another site. Is this a fair description of the EO belief? If not, could someone pick out the inaccuracies for me?

Orthodoxy is a Christian-Judeo derivative that reinterprets key Scripture verses in such a way that works become essential to reach heaven. They believe faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation, but where Christianity teaches that becoming more Christ-like is the result of Christ’s influence in a believer’s life. Orthodoxy teaches that it is a part of the salvation process. As a result, they believe if that process (called theosis) is not performed appropriately, a worshiper can lose his/her salvation. After death, the devout live in an intermediate state where this theosis can be completed. Those who have belief but did not accomplish sufficient progress in theosis are sent to a temporary “direful condition” and will go to hell unless the living devout pray and complete acts of mercy on their behalf. After final judgment, the devout are sent to heaven and the others to hell. Heaven and hell are not locations, but reactions to being in the presence of God, as there is nowhere that He is not present. For Christ-followers, God’s presence is paradise, but for the unsaved, being with God is eternal torment.
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« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2011, 05:34:30 AM »

Ah the joys of special pleading...
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« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2011, 05:45:49 AM »

Then, the salvation can not only be lost, it can be gained back, even after death of the person since the prayers for the departed do work.

Also since Jesus is Eastern Orthodox priest in after life he can perform baptism, confessions and Holy Communion in after life for departed people as in the case of baptism, Gospel of Nicodemus tells us. So people dying without baptism like aborted babies, or Protestant children that delayed baptism because of bad teachings or muslims or pagans  may be baptised by Jesus at the request of prayers for people on Earth.

We are not muslims or in the Old Law to debate if salvation is about works or not, we have a new dimension and I am speaking about sacraments.
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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2011, 11:12:24 AM »

Gospel of Nicodemus tells us.

The Gospel of Nicodemus is a very late pseudopigraphal text which has no authority (or really respect) in the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2011, 12:51:37 PM »

Gospel of Nicodemus tells us.

The Gospel of Nicodemus is a very late pseudopigraphal text which has no authority (or really respect) in the Orthodox Church.
Why dont we just say, "The Gospel of Judas", or "The Gospel of Thomas" says....hey I got it, we can also throw in, "The Lord tells us in the Indian in the Cupboard, Chapter 5 verse 12........"

PP
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« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2011, 05:23:11 PM »

Gospel of Nicodemus tells us.

The Gospel of Nicodemus is a very late pseudopigraphal text which has no authority (or really respect) in the Orthodox Church.

Not quite. The Gospel of Nicodemus has been used by the Church in the imagery (hymnographic and iconographic) of Christ descending into Hades and its harrowing after His crucifixion.
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« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2011, 05:28:55 PM »

Gospel of Nicodemus tells us.

The Gospel of Nicodemus is a very late pseudopigraphal text which has no authority (or really respect) in the Orthodox Church.


Not quite. The Gospel of Nicodemus has been used by the Church in the imagery (hymnographic and iconographic) of Christ descending into Hades and its harrowing after His crucifixion.
Its one thing to use it for imagery, but its something totally different to use it as scripture.

PP
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« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2011, 05:36:21 PM »

Ah the joys of special pleading...

better than regular pleading... Wink
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« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2011, 05:37:43 PM »

Gospel of Nicodemus tells us.

The Gospel of Nicodemus is a very late pseudopigraphal text which has no authority (or really respect) in the Orthodox Church.


Not quite. The Gospel of Nicodemus has been used by the Church in the imagery (hymnographic and iconographic) of Christ descending into Hades and its harrowing after His crucifixion.
Its one thing to use it for imagery, but its something totally different to use it as scripture.

PP

If it's part of hymnography and iconography, it's kosher. The Gospel of Nicodemus might not be canonical scripture, but the Church has seen it fit to draw from it, as it also has from the Protoevangelion of James for several feasts of the Mother of God.
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« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2011, 05:38:36 PM »

I don't know why folks are bashing the Gospel of Nicodemus. As LBK as said, the imagery of the Harrowing of Hell by Christ, and the opening of Paradise are concepts found there and are part of our Holy Tradition.

I've been to some parishes that publicly read this Passion Gospel during Holy Week (outside of the services, of course). It's my understanding that the Gospel of Nicodemus has always been considered profitable to read by the Church. Let's not forget that the canon of Scripture established the books that could be read publicly at the Liturgy, not all books that are authoritative in the Orthodox Church. St. Jude, in his epistle quotes from the Book of Enoch, though it does not belong to our canon (unless you're in the Ethiopian Church), and the Old Testament makes several references to books that no longer exist. Many Church Fathers quote from non-canonical books, as do many modern Orthodox scholars (I believe in one of his books, Metropolitan Kallistos even quotes from the Gospel of Thomas*).

Scripture is the cornerstone of our Tradition, yes, but let us remember that around the cornerstone exists the entire building of the Church, and that they former together a single entity.





*Metropolitan Kallistos quotes a section of the Gospel that is Orthodox in its teaching. This is no way an endorsement of the whole Gospel, which is a Gnostic work. Rather, as an Orthodox bishop he is "rightly dividing the word of truth" and speaking with the words of the Gospel only insomuch as it exemplifies Orthodox teaching.
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« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2011, 07:36:15 PM »

I don't know why folks are bashing the Gospel of Nicodemus. As LBK as said, the imagery of the Harrowing of Hell by Christ, and the opening of Paradise are concepts found there and are part of our Holy Tradition.

That doesn't mean the whole thing should be accepted holus bolus. Ditto the protoevangelion.
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« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2011, 12:33:51 AM »

It's my understanding that the Gospel of Nicodemus has always been considered profitable to read by the Church.

Given that it didn't even exist before the 4th century, 'always' is a stretch. Eusebius does not even mention it among the disputed or rejected texts indicating it wasn't even in the conversation about the canon in his time. To the extent that hymnographers have found portions of it congruent enough with the actual tradition to be useful (the author was, after all, himself exposed to that tradition), the hymns can and should be used as a witness to the Tradition of the Church. But the document itself carries no doctrinal authority.
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