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Author Topic: Big words, little dissent for Washington Catholics  (Read 3649 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 28, 2011, 04:04:12 PM »

Catholics at the Cathedral of St. Matthew the Apostle react to the new English translations of prayers, responses and hymns from the original Latin, that were officially implemented into Mass on Sunday [27 November 2011]:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/big-words-little-dissent-for-washington-catholics/2011/11/28/gIQANbeV4N_video.html
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 01:29:37 PM »

think of the shock if the filioque was taken out  angel from the Roman Missal
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 01:33:19 PM »

think of the shock if the filioque was taken out  angel from the Roman Missal

hey if they are willing to accept their error in the paschal dating maybe they can accept this too...  angel
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 01:40:12 PM »

old creed vs new creed:

http://www.divinesacredheart.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=192&Itemid=89

Consubstantial with the Father? That will take some getting used to for them...
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 02:34:13 PM »

old creed vs new creed:

http://www.divinesacredheart.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=192&Itemid=89

Consubstantial with the Father? That will take some getting used to for them...

I'm sure we'll manage *just fine*, thank you  Grin
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 03:52:34 PM »

think of the shock if the filioque was taken out  angel from the Roman Missal

hey if they are willing to accept their error in the paschal dating maybe they can accept this too...  angel

Does anybody work at a publisher? If somebody just happened to "lose" that word in the text- well, that may help a bit. Losing things isn't a sin.  Wink
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 04:05:43 PM »

think of the shock if the filioque was taken out  angel from the Roman Missal

hey if they are willing to accept their error in the paschal dating maybe they can accept this too...  angel

Does anybody work at a publisher? If somebody just happened to "lose" that word in the text- well, that may help a bit. Losing things isn't a sin.  Wink

Oy vey.  <sigh>
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 04:19:07 PM »

Consubstantial with the Father? That will take some getting used to for them...
Yeah because we Latins are so friggin' stupid it isn't funny. I'm not sure how we even get dressed in the morning without a ton of help from the Greeks.
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 04:28:21 PM »

think of the shock if the filioque was taken out  angel from the Roman Missal

hey if they are willing to accept their error in the paschal dating maybe they can accept this too...  angel

Does anybody work at a publisher? If somebody just happened to "lose" that word in the text- well, that may help a bit. Losing things isn't a sin.  Wink
Matthew 18:18 "...whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 04:37:53 PM »

So I know there were a few key phrase changes, but the way this is being presented, especially in the news media, is a little overblown. Sure, the changes need to be pointed out to the faithful, but it's not really a 'New Mass' or anything. 'Biggest change since the 1960s' needs to be rephrased to 'not nearly as big as the change in the 1960s.' I think Catholics will adapt just fine.
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 04:49:26 PM »

Consubstantial with the Father? That will take some getting used to for them...
Yeah because we Latins are so friggin' stupid it isn't funny. I'm not sure how we even get dressed in the morning without a ton of help from the Greeks.

 laugh
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 04:52:00 PM »

definitely took some tips from the orthodox on this i think as evidenced by the creed changes...another example:

"peace be unto all"

"and with thy spirit" (used to be "and also with you")
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 04:58:20 PM »

think of the shock if the filioque was taken out  angel from the Roman Missal

hey if they are willing to accept their error in the paschal dating maybe they can accept this too...  angel

Does anybody work at a publisher? If somebody just happened to "lose" that word in the text- well, that may help a bit. Losing things isn't a sin.  Wink
Matthew 18:18 "...whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Yawn.
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 07:42:30 PM »

Some idiot wrote in to our local broadsheet complaining that the new translation's language is too "servile". (http://www.smh.com.au/national/letters/dated-language-may-be-fodder-for-the-sceptics-20111127-1o1j4.html)

This "criticism" truly shines a light on the modern mind. We are apparently such lofty creatures it is not necessary for us to be "servile" before our King and God.

Truly, it's been a while since I have chanced upon such idiocy.
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 08:39:54 PM »

I haven't visited my former parish since 2010, but I hope they did well with the new Mass. I was curious to see how it turned out. Maybe if I can find a video podcast of an RCC church, I'll watch it and see.
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 10:36:16 PM »

Some idiot wrote in to our local broadsheet complaining that the new translation's language is too "servile". (http://www.smh.com.au/national/letters/dated-language-may-be-fodder-for-the-sceptics-20111127-1o1j4.html)

This "criticism" truly shines a light on the modern mind. We are apparently such lofty creatures it is not necessary for us to be "servile" before our King and God.

Truly, it's been a while since I have chanced upon such idiocy.

Wouldn't know humility if it jumped up and bit them in the butt.
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2011, 11:16:19 PM »

definitely took some tips from the orthodox on this i think as evidenced by the creed changes...another example:

"peace be unto all"

"and with thy spirit" (used to be "and also with you")

Not quite. Wink. This translation is more accurate to the Latin (yes, the normative language in the Latin Church, to include its liturgial books, remains Latin).  "And with thy spirit" is exactly what the Latin has always said.  

The previous translation has been shown to consistently be a poor paraphrase of the Latin, obscuring inherent theological undertexts and sometimes modifying them.   The old translation of the first eucharistic prayer is a great example - one of the tranlators wrote an article justifying the translation, saying that modern people don't pray that way and exsentially that that translation was the best they could do to make it fit their theological opinions.

Finally, yes this is getting way over-hyped, IMO because some people want to paint it as a change, and because it makes a good media story.  I'm just happy that the translation is no longer obnoxiously bad.  
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2011, 11:17:53 PM »

Sorry for the double tap. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 11:29:26 PM »

definitely took some tips from the orthodox on this i think as evidenced by the creed changes...another example:

"peace be unto all"

"and with thy spirit" (used to be "and also with you")

Not quite. Wink. This translation is more accurate to the Latin (yes, the normative language in the Latin Church, to include its liturgial books, remains Latin).  "And with thy spirit" is exactly what the Latin has always said.

Indeed:

P. Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum
S. Et cum spiritu tuo.
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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 12:19:46 AM »

While I'm enthusiastic about the changes to the peoples parts of the Mass, some of the wording used in especially the Eucharistic prayers seem way too "high fallutin" for today's basic English speakers.  I'm sure that the translators could have found other words that remain close to the Latin original, yet are not so antiquated sounding as "Consubstantial" or "Vouchsafe" come across b today's standards.

The revised missal is certainly a big improvement from the previous version, but even somewhat of an enthusiast like myself has gotten cold feet over the depth of this whole thing. Deep down I guess that I am so used to the old translation no mater how imperfect or flawed that ti was that its taking me much more effort then I previously thought to adapt myself to these new ways.

I guess its hard to rewire your brain to say things different then the way you automatically said them for decades.  At least when the RCC switched from Latin to the vernacular, they were two separate and distinct languages as opposed to the present revision which is from the same one.

God speed to the changes though.
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 01:16:47 AM »

Some idiot wrote in to our local broadsheet complaining that the new translation's language is too "servile". (http://www.smh.com.au/national/letters/dated-language-may-be-fodder-for-the-sceptics-20111127-1o1j4.html)

This "criticism" truly shines a light on the modern mind. We are apparently such lofty creatures it is not necessary for us to be "servile" before our King and God.

Truly, it's been a while since I have chanced upon such idiocy.

Wouldn't know humility if it jumped up and bit them in the butt.

Mary, this is another time where I'm not sure if you are agreeing or having a dig at me!
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 09:13:41 AM »

They fixed a lot of the more glaring errors in the old "translation", but the syntax is painfully Latinate. Perhaps more significant will be the obsolescence of a generation of service music.
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 09:23:42 AM »

They fixed a lot of the more glaring errors in the old "translation", but the syntax is painfully Latinate. Perhaps more significant will be the obsolescence of a generation of service music.


+1. Coverdale and the folks who did the Anglican prayerbook don't have to worry about Catholics challenging them on the liturgical English front.  

As for the service music, I'm told that while there have been new pieces and masses written, some of the old settings will be modified.   For instance, the ubiquitous "Mass of Creation" will be modified to suit the new translation.  Why I don't know - its only advantage is that it's well known; I don't think its inherently congregation friendly or musically well done enough to warrant its popularity.   I also don't think that anying will happen to Eagles Wings, to say nothing of Amazing Grace  Tongue. Also, I don't thinkthey've done anything to the horrible psalter they use.  
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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 03:35:00 PM »

Some idiot wrote in to our local broadsheet complaining that the new translation's language is too "servile". (http://www.smh.com.au/national/letters/dated-language-may-be-fodder-for-the-sceptics-20111127-1o1j4.html)

This "criticism" truly shines a light on the modern mind. We are apparently such lofty creatures it is not necessary for us to be "servile" before our King and God.

Truly, it's been a while since I have chanced upon such idiocy.

Wouldn't know humility if it jumped up and bit them in the butt.

Mary, this is another time where I'm not sure if you are agreeing or having a dig at me!

Oh!!...no dig at all.  Absolute loss of any concept of humility and responsibility is a far greater "problem" for Catholics than the filioque!!!... Smiley...and that latter part is a dig at ME..or my church... Cheesy
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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2011, 03:37:11 PM »

Also, I don't thinkthey've done anything to the horrible psalter they use.  

heh...no.   I was just fussing about the Grail Psalms the other day.

There are always a few phrases in all translations that are superlative: but overall I dislike the Grail Psalms most definitely. 
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2011, 07:44:23 PM »

Consubstantial with the Father? That will take some getting used to for them...
Yeah because we Latins are so friggin' stupid it isn't funny. I'm not sure how we even get dressed in the morning without a ton of help from the Greeks.

Hey, we're not the ones making this claim. It's your own liberal Catholic groups who are so upset by the changes and seem to think that Roman Catholics can't handle "big" words like "consubstantial" or "incarnate" or "spirit" replacing "you."  Every article I've read complaining about the "big" words comes from Catholics, not a single from the Greeks or Russians.  your own house needs cleaning.
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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2011, 08:19:15 PM »

I don't think the newer translation of the Roman Missal is that big of a deal.  People will get used to it, and heck it might make people think about the words they are saying instead of saying them out of memory.   I'm sure there are more than one or two Catholics who wouldn't mind to have low mass re-instituted which would solve all of the problems for the catholics who can't cope with fifteen words being re-translated in the current missal. (low mass=people don't respond at all, only the altarboys do)
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 09:07:37 PM »

If they just get rid of the "Gather" hymnal and all those tacky Mary Haugen hymns, they will have accomplished something.
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 09:53:34 PM »

definitely took some tips from the orthodox on this i think as evidenced by the creed changes...another example:

"peace be unto all"

"and with thy spirit" (used to be "and also with you")
ORRRRRR... That's just what it says in the original latin.
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 09:55:07 PM »

If they just get rid of the "Gather" hymnal and all those tacky Mary Haugen hymns, they will have accomplished something.
So very  true. Is anybody up for a good ol' fashioned book burning?  Grin

In all seriousness, the the "Gather" hymnal is nothing more than a bunch of childrens songs. ughhhh
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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2011, 10:40:21 PM »

definitely took some tips from the orthodox on this i think as evidenced by the creed changes...another example:

"peace be unto all"

"and with thy spirit" (used to be "and also with you")

At Mass this weekend, we didn't say "and with thy spirit." We said "and with your spirit." That is the way it was printed on the card. I keep seeing people here write thy. Is that because this board is predominately Orthodox and didn't know or is my parish the only one realizing we are not Pilgrims in the 1600s?
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2011, 10:41:20 PM »

If they just get rid of the "Gather" hymnal and all those tacky Mary Haugen hymns, they will have accomplished something.
So very  true. Is anybody up for a good ol' fashioned book burning?  Grin

In all seriousness, the the "Gather" hymnal is nothing more than a bunch of childrens songs. ughhhh

Not a fan of the Gather hymnal either. Hopefully that will be the next project for improvement.
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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2011, 11:24:20 PM »

Oops, I meant Marty Haugen, not Mary. There may be a Mary Haugen somewhere who has nothing to do with bad songwriting, and to her, I apologize. Wink
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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2011, 01:15:36 PM »

If they just get rid of the "Gather" hymnal and all those tacky Mary Haugen hymns, they will have accomplished something.
So very  true. Is anybody up for a good ol' fashioned book burning?  Grin

In all seriousness, the the "Gather" hymnal is nothing more than a bunch of childrens songs. ughhhh

 Cheesy  There's nothing wrong with the Gather hymnal.  I have one right here on shelf next to my old St. Gregory's from when I was six and in the children's choir.  We little ones used to sing all of the Saturday morning funeral masses.  We had choir practice three times a week.  It was quite something now that I am older and look back. 

But...Gather has its place in some parish communities.  Many parishes have enough members to have a Palestrina and a Gather mass on Sunday morning.  These things really are a matter of taste and see. 

Hymn singing in both east and west have gone their separate ways in many respects.  You don't need to argue the theological value of  liturgical poetry for many of the hymns in a Latin rite liturgy.

I've seen some beautiful things done at many levels and I've seen poverty of talent warp a chanted liturgy to the point where it was painful but the notes and words were all in place and the heart was in the right place too...so who am I to complain about the gifts God gave my brothers and sisters?

c'mon.... Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2011, 02:13:28 PM »

definitely took some tips from the orthodox on this i think as evidenced by the creed changes...another example:

"peace be unto all"

"and with thy spirit" (used to be "and also with you")
ORRRRRR... That's just what it says in the original latin.
But...but........BUT................the first Ecumenical Councils were in Greek. The Latin is based on the Greek. Greek is an intellectually superior language. If only we Latins weren't so dense and barbaric.  Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2011, 02:46:37 PM »

definitely took some tips from the orthodox on this i think as evidenced by the creed changes...another example:

"peace be unto all"

"and with thy spirit" (used to be "and also with you")
ORRRRRR... That's just what it says in the original latin.

which came from the original greek... Wink
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« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2011, 02:48:22 PM »

definitely took some tips from the orthodox on this i think as evidenced by the creed changes...another example:

"peace be unto all"

"and with thy spirit" (used to be "and also with you")

At Mass this weekend, we didn't say "and with thy spirit." We said "and with your spirit." That is the way it was printed on the card. I keep seeing people here write thy. Is that because this board is predominately Orthodox and didn't know or is my parish the only one realizing we are not Pilgrims in the 1600s?

thy sounds better...we all know this Wink
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« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2011, 06:58:27 PM »

which came from the original greek... Wink

Called it lololololol:

ORRRRRR... That's just what it says in the original latin.
But...but........BUT................the first Ecumenical Councils were in Greek. The Latin is based on the Greek. Greek is an intellectually superior language. If only we Latins weren't so dense and barbaric.  Tongue
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 06:59:27 PM by Wyatt » Logged
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