Charismatic Catholics? I'm shocked

[recent convert]

I have a deeply skeptical perception of the charismatic expressions but I wonder if such things emerge because there may be gifted laity who are not provided proper outlets in which gifts can be manifested. Mediocrity & stagnant functionalism seem the status quo in the overall situation whether among Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants (some parishes thrive but most do not).

[Maria]

I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope. 

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.

[J Michael]

I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope. 

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.

I'm sure he could use prayers from all of us, even as he prays for us all.  Even Orthodox  .

[Maria]

I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope. 

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.

I'm sure he could use prayers from all of us, even as he prays for us all.  Even Orthodox  .

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on Pope Benedict XVI.

[username!]

I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope. 

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.

The man is 80 some years old living a schedule with responsibilities that would challenge a 30 year old.  Many years to him and his dedication to his flock.  Not to mention he is Europe's only absolute monarch as well, performing state functions, bishop functions, travel, etc.. writing books, I'm sure it isn't easy.  When they announced he was to be pope it didn't surprise me.  Not too many other men were as qualified as him as he was John Paul II's right hand man. 

[username!]

I'm not into the charismatic movement myself, never would be.  However the faith and prayer that I have seen from the local Catholics is stellar who participate in the local Cathedral's charismatic movement. There are different ways of praying, if this is their way, who am I to judge.  They take care of the poor, etc.. as well.  It brings them together, the RCC allows it, hence, in the eyes of the RCC it is an acceptable movement.

[Apotheoun]

I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4

[Maria]

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

[KShaft]

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

Amen, May the Holy Trinity be praised!

[WetCatechumen]

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

Amen, May the Holy Trinity be praised!

So you're praising that they knowingly left the Catholic Faith?

I love the Divine Liturgy but I'm perfectly happy to serve in it at a Ruthenian Catholic parish.


Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!

[KShaft]

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

Amen, May the Holy Trinity be praised!

So you're praising that they knowingly left the Catholic Faith?

I love the Divine Liturgy but I'm perfectly happy to serve in it at a Ruthenian Catholic parish.


Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!

 They never left the Catholic Faith, rather they came to it undefiled. Better to be Orthodox Catholic than heretical under the Pope.  The allowing of a truly non-Christian form of Christianity in what was/is an a apostolic Church is an abomination. The protestant written liturgy(NO) was bad enough to go from 70% Mass attendance to 30% practically overnight. The Church was undermined and utterly confused as if it had lost its way because indeed it had in a severe way. So splinter groups started popping up here and there DISOBEYING THE POPE in order to maintain the Western orthodox Faith and Liturgy. In other words they thought orthodoxy was more important than obedience to the Pope. And this has happened in the past with other things, including the events at Vatican I. Read your history. The papacy had been used as a unifying tool by secular powers after the Franks took it over. Of course obedience even in the siding with hell would be a desired attribute for bishops, priests, and laity alike. Also the lunatic protestants who weren't moved by love of the faith but by hatred of Rome. An understandable disillusionment on many things, but the throwing out the baby with the bath water for their man made traditions and philosophies was abominable. It is good that you did not let that cloud your judgement as many converts to Orthodoxy continue to do so foolishly.

 One can look at it as a parallel to what happened in Russia with the Old believers, but the differences between the EF Mass and the NO Mass are night and day where as the differences in Liturgy between the more Greek (at the time) Liturgy of the Nikon reforms are minimal compared to the OB rite and doesn't compromise the Faith in any way and was perfectly orthodox with the Greeks(although the OB thought it was a sign of worldly apostasy and the end of the world). Its not a real parallel, because of the overreaction on the OB part but the reaction itself is somewhat understandable (not the extent they took it to which was lunacy in some instances) and even more so with Roman Catholics on a total perversion of the tradition handed down by Apostles and Church Fathers by heretics.  And one should not listen to whatever Pope authorizes such heretics to write the cornerstone of your Faith which is the Liturgy or who authorized it to be used once completed. Why should one obey a Pope who compromises the Faith and brings the church into mire? There needs to be Pauls to the Peter and withstand him to his face and return him to the Faith of his Fathers. Not let him continue to error, like a parent too afraid to discipline his child because the child might resent him, or someone too afraid to speak the truth of an injustice because of the consequences. Save the man and the Church. This nonsense of follow the Pope at all costs no matter what else he has done or effected is lunacy.  

[WetCatechumen]

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

Amen, May the Holy Trinity be praised!

So you're praising that they knowingly left the Catholic Faith?

I love the Divine Liturgy but I'm perfectly happy to serve in it at a Ruthenian Catholic parish.


Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!

 They never left the Catholic Faith, rather they came to it undefiled. Better to be Orthodox Catholic than heretical under the Pope.  The allowing of a truly non-Christian form of Christianity in what was/is an a apostolic Church is an abomination. The protestant written liturgy(NO) was bad enough to go from 70% Mass attendance to 30% practically overnight. The Church was undermined and utterly confused as if it had lost its way because indeed it had in a severe way. So splinter groups started popping up here and there DISOBEYING THE POPE in order to maintain the Western orthodox Faith. In other words they thought orthodoxy was more important than obedience to the Pope. And this has happened in the past with other things, including the events at Vatican I. Read your history. The papacy had been used as a unifying tool by secular powers after the Franks took it over. Of course obedience even in the siding with hell would be a desired attribute for bishops, priests, and laity alike. Also the lunatic protestants who weren't moved by love of the faith but by hatred of Rome. An understandable disillusionment on many things, but the throwing out the baby with the bath water for their man made traditions and philosophies was abominable. It is good that you did not let that cloud your judgement as many converts to Orthodoxy continue to do so foolishly.

 One can look at it as a parallel to what happened in Russia with the Old believers, but the differences between the EF Mass and the NO Mass are night and day where as the differences in Liturgy between the more Greek (at the time) Liturgy of the Nikon reforms are minimal compared to the OB rite and doesn't compromise the Faith in any way and was perfectly orthodox with the Greeks(although the OB thought it was a sign of worldly apostasy and the end of the world). Its not a real parallel, because of the overreaction on the OB part but the reaction itself is somewhat understandable (not the extent they took it to which was lunacy in some instances) and even more so with Roman Catholics on a total perversion of the tradition handed down by Apostles and Church Fathers by heretics.  And one should not listen to whatever Pope authorizes such heretics to write the cornerstone of your Faith which is the Liturgy or who authorized it to be used once completed. Why should one obey a Pope who compromises the Faith and brings the church into mire? There needs to be Pauls to the Peter and withstand him to his face and return him to the Faith of his Fathers. Not let him continue to error, like a parent too afraid to discipline his child because the child might resent him, or someone too afraid to speak the truth of an injustice because of the consequences. Save the man and the Church. This nonsense of follow the Pope at all costs no matter what else he has done or effected is lunacy. 

I'm guessing that by your religion being "Catholic" you mean "not Catholic" and by your jurisdiction being "Roman" you mean "none". Unless you mean "Orthodox" and "Romanian Diocese of Italy". Which knowing the words games some posters like to play on the board it's a possibility, although I suspect the former is more likely. Of course it's also possible you are in a canonical society such as the FSSP or ICRSP.

This is what I heard from you: "I don't like the Mass of Paul VI! Therefore the Pope is a practical heretic!" And no, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is a wonderful Pope and wonderful Christian who has done an excellent job of managing the flock pastorally while bluntly promoting orthodoxy in the face of many trials in the modern world. Furthermore, despite the fact that you dislike the New Order of the Mass, it cannot be held to be strictly less valid in a moral sense than the old Mass. Liturgical reforms are necessary and often needed. Should it have been as great? I don't think so - I'm a big fan of little t tradition. But the bishops voted nearly unanimously that we needed to change.

But what you've just done is to slander the Apostolic Church and those to whom it has been entrusted, as well as to compromise the Catholic Faith.

[Wyatt]

Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!

My thoughts exactly.

[Jack Bauer]

Does anyone have any info on this movement? Is it new?

Nope.

I suppose it is new in the ultimate scale of things, but it's not new in the landscape of American religion, if that's what you're asking.

It's very strange.  Basically Catholics inviting Benny Hinn style protestantism into the Church.

Not that I approve or anything, but be fair. It's a little more nuanced than that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obsv5ddNnVQ

*shrug*

When you're as big as the Catholic church, stuff creeps in. Orthodoxy has been culturally insulated from these kinds of shenanigans for a while, but I suspect as global Pentecostalism really takes hold (and it is certainly on the way) we will see more of it, perhaps not in the liturgy but in syncronistic home devotions. As is, we're not immune to esoteric bullcrap.

You see?  This is why I hesitate to convert without serious lengthy discernment.  The charismatic group of the Catholic Charismatic Movement is what tainted my view of Catholicism and why I defected to the Church of Christ, a seemingly obscure restoration movement to me now.  Simply put, I thought I was going to hell if I didn't put away my papist beliefs and get baptized "correctly...by submersion. 

The Charistmatics insiste that they are present in the early church, which seems really far fetched to me.  It is an embarrassment to me.  I watched one crazy lady speaking directly to the Pope one year as she itterated a bunch of self-induldged non-sense as he watched and listened.  He had a strange look on his face that said, "who the ____ is this crazy woman".  It really looked that way to me.  This occurred sometime in 2007 if memory serves me.  I was still looking seriously at Orhtodoxy.  But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well.  So, no jumping ships for me without getting a strong standing on what's what.  Jumping ship for what a few "i-dots" do is not the right answer.  So, when you discern, do not discern over things like clergy sex scandal.  I've been told directly by some promenent priests I've spoke with that the Orthodox has their share of problems, which is one of the main reasons I hesitated to make the leap while we were still fresh in our conversion the the ancient church. 

However, with that said, when I look at the ancient One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is see Orthodox Christianity. I still haven't seen the part that we're taught the Ordinary [previously known as the Novus Ordo or new order].  I was thrilled to see the official acceptance of the TLM but can't get my wife interested in attending one.  Her protestant ways prevent her from going that far I guess.  Now, we're lucky in our parish.  The Franciscans say mass in a very reverent way and will accept nothing that attempts to turn it into a zoo festival.  He's made it clear that although the Holy Spirit speak to us and may even move us, he says he'll splash you with holy water until you stop so that order can be brought back into the worship.  He's very reverent and one of them even says the mass in Latin.  However, he's been instructed not to do so by what I call "the resistence."     Frankly, I'm tired of the dissenters.  But I see Orthodoxy have them too.  As Orthodoxy grows, which I see more clearly now, they too will have similar problems.  The saying "power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely". 

I'll be following these discussions.  I'm in a program that leads towards the diaconate program acceptance, which is currently suspended, which I have strong opinions about imprudent abscission, like the use of EMHCs when not necessary.  Talk about a bunch of egomaniacs.  Because of the "shows" I witnessed from individual EMHCs I chose to participate as an EMHC just to get rid of some of the drama.  The priest is the one who is the ordinary minister of holy communion and I've never seen one carry on so dramatically, even though he could.  I'm also tired of the push towards ordaining women priests and deacons.  Female alter servers are a stretch for me.  But I see the Orthodox are doing similar.  What happened to the world while I was in the Church of Christ?

[Jack Bauer]

Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!

My thoughts exactly.

Big Thumbs Up emotocon from me.

[Jack Bauer]

I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope. 

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.

Is this the day that crazy lady was carrying on about the Charismatic movement I spoke about?  Looks about right.  The pope is in pain just listening to her crazy words.  I'm expecting this Charismatic movement to be rooted out like an abscessed tooth.

[LBK]

But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well.

Charismatic Orthodox? In close to 50 years of being Orthodox, over several jurisdictions and a couple of countries, I've never seen it, nor has any priest I've known condoned it.

I'm also tired of the push towards ordaining women priests and deacons.  Female alter servers are a stretch for me.  But I see the Orthodox are doing similar.

The ordination of female priests is a non-starter, and always will be. Female altar servers have been experimented with by a minuscule number of individual parishes in one jurisdiction, to the horror and consternation of everyone else in the world. Deaconesses? Not for performing the liturgical functions of a deacon. The ancient deaconess was not a female deacon.

[Agabus]

I was still looking seriously at Orhtodoxy.  But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well. 

FWIW, the two examples I have posted were minuscule minority reports.  But they do exist, and people within the Orthodox Church are not immune to error, even charismatic error. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise is in serious delusion. As for Ryden, the EP has excommunicated her.

If what you're referring to as 'interesting movements' within Orthodoxy are old world folk practices -- well the Catholic church has its own share of strange devotions. (Most folk practices don't bother me, even if they aren't part of the official faith. There's paper faith, and then there's organic faith as it's seen on the ground. Heck, the cults of many saints started as folk movements.)

[WUnland]

I am self described as a "traditional Catholic".  I think that the post Vat II changes to the Mass in the USA have been a disaster.  I am not a cradle Catholic, but a convert from German Baptist.  Way back when I had the privilege of attending a real Latin High Mass.  That memory has stuck with me for 50 some years now.  The Roman Rite "CAN" be as beautiful and worshipful as the Orthodox.  Unfortunately in most of the US it is NOT.

I really hate "most" NO masses, let alone Charismatic ones.  I have been to some very pious and beautiful NO masses in Germany, but not in the USA.  When I am in the US I attend a Polish parish that offers the Latin rite as a matter of my own choice. I make no claim that the NO is not licit.  I am not in that camp.

Here in Japan it is considered a "mission" church and the Mass is a simplified NO that does NOT follow GRIM.  The order and prayers are totally different than that considered the norm anywhere else that I have been. That said I have been to some very pious services here.

That out of the way, I seriously do not personally "like" the Charismatics, particularly the Neo-Cats. My like or dislike however; has nothing to do with the Church's embrace of them.  Trying to attract the young is ALWAYS the excuse given.  Make it more attractive, more Protestant and they will come has been the Churches approach in the USA since Vat II.  In my worthless opinion they have destroyed what was left of Roman Catholic traditions, and have turned the liturgy into a circus. It is very cult like here with "us" and "them" separate congregations.  They stay out of the other parish functions, make their own collections, and do not contribute to the Church.


I am in no position to say whether the actions of Charismatics is divinely inspired, only God knows that, but to me their antics are too much self driven to be representative of true inspiration of the Spirit.  "Look at me I'm dead in the Spirit" seems to be the cry as they "faint". MY faith is so strong, so much better than yours that I can speak in tongues, and so forth.  This is NOT how God works.  The SELF is not to be put in the spotlight.  They may indeed be serious and do good works outside of the liturgy, but their destruction of the traditions of my Church do not make me comfortable in the least.

I joined the RCC to be Catholic, not Protestant.  If I could I would go back to the pre-VatII Church, but alas I cannot.  In obedience I accept my Church's position regarding the council BUT that does not mean that I can't have an opinion.  My confessor has made it clear to me that obedience to Church authority can never go against conscience.  With that I can assure you that I will never join in the circus that has become my Church in many places in the world.  I will remain faithful, but also respectful of tradition. I dare say there is nothing else that I can do.

Regards,
William Unland

[Jack Bauer]

Well, though our pastor doesn't seem to "endorse" Charismatic agendas, he has allowed some rather interesting abuses to continue until the bishop intervened.  I fear that my complaint via email may have provoked the investigation across the wider diocese.  Either that or coincidentally someone else complained enough to provoke the research of EMHCs "blessing" communicants that do not receive - if that makes sense.  I am an EMHC, not because I'm comfortable with doing it completely, but because of my reverence for the Eucharist and understanding of the intent behind their use.  I get it, but I don't get it when EMHCs unecessarily try to draw attention with these enormously exagerated postures of raising the Eucharist above their head and saying with profound dramatic voice inflections "Thheeeee BODdddddyyy of CHriiiiiiiissssssst!".  This along with other similar abuses really crawls under my skin.  My personal belief, of my own authority , lends to my huge question:  "if we are so short of priest needing help communing the faithful, then why not ordain more deacons or allowed married priests.  If the standards were elevated, as they should, then why not allow orthodox Catholic married men to study for the priesthood?  I used to beleive it would prevent all of these abuses because an experienced father would have a little sanity about him after raising his own children... hopefully.  It was a couple of Orthodox priests that lectured me, more like mentored me, into the errors of my thinking.  So I conceded to continue in the Latin Rite, and accept the teachings without dissent.  I am seeing evidence that even the bishops of the so called Roman Catholic Church are revealing the possibility of Catholics historically "over interpretting" actions and intentions... similar to the VCII "spirit of Vatican II" experience. 

Example:  Hearing converts discuss more deeply the issues they had helped me to understand more of the objections I had towards the OHCAC.  Infant baptism, celibate only priesthood, confession/absolution, confirmation, grace/faith/works debate, hierarchy, symbol/icon/statue use, rosary, Theotokos, New Adam/New Eve, original sin, real presence, etc.  Many of these issues I can just feel the rejection.  But I'd argue that those that cringe at things like "original sin" really don't understand the actual teaching on the subject.  I think that many priests in the past were more concerned at showing off their ability to engage in flamboyant theological discussions, but failed miserably at conveying the real meaning of such subjects. 

Most all of the "Charismatic" priests I've known are no longer practicing priests.  The irony is that Carry Landry's music is still included in mass.  No offense, but even though I grew up on his music, I loath it in the context of mass.  I have pics of him from charismatic renewal retreats at Franciscan University in my youth.  He was a pastor in a college campus parish where I attended.  My aunt knew him pretty well.  She's still charismatic.  She also attends an Assemblies of God church as well as Catholic Church.  I know other charismatics that have also dissented into such illicit behavior.  One of those charismatic priest presided over my father and stepmother's illicit wedding cerimony, thus really messing my father up even more.  Not having grown up Catholic I didn't understand what happened until I grew up.  It seemed to me that a collection of priests who were all cousins were quite committed to doing illicit things.  Only one remains a priest and hasn't returned my messages.  He probably lives in fear now that he knows I turned in his other cousin that made a pass on me.

I don't want to dump the entire priest scandal on the Charismatic movement.  But since it's all I knew about Catholicism growing up, it just draws conclusions towards that concept.  I haven't heard one scandal yet from the Orthodoxy Church.  I'm sure there's dirt in there somewhere because of human nature.  But with the illicit dissent in the Catholic Church taking place, the sexual scandals just pop out of the pages of the paper much worst.  Either that or there is an effective campaign going on that makes the issue seem much less than it could be.  I don't know. 

My personal experience with the Charismatic Movement is that it is a false expression of Christ - my opinion.  But, I wouldn't publicly come out of the pews to take such a stance knowing the possible character assassinations that would follow.  Been there.  I've seen too many people fake tongues and falling on the ground.  Those that engaged in it are mostly now fallen away completely, living sexually immoral lifestyles, or practicing dual religions.  Most.  Only a few have let go of the past to engage in more orthodox beliefs.  With all of the massive confusion my hope is that God has mercy on us all as we all deserve death.

[Jack Bauer]

I was still looking seriously at Orhtodoxy.  But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well. 

FWIW, the two examples I have posted were minuscule minority reports.  But they do exist, and people within the Orthodox Church are not immune to error, even charismatic error. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise is in serious delusion. As for Ryden, the EP has excommunicated her.

If what you're referring to as 'interesting movements' within Orthodoxy are old world folk practices -- well the Catholic church has its own share of strange devotions. (Most folk practices don't bother me, even if they aren't part of the official faith. There's paper faith, and then there's organic faith as it's seen on the ground. Heck, the cults of many saints started as folk movements.)

Well, I'm intentionally being vague and avoiding conflict.  I have read enough to make me hesitate towards converting to Orthodoxy.  However, my stalemate is really caused from my wife's expression of faith in Catholicism.  I'm trying to be very careful to preserve our family unit.  If you knew her background in the Church of Christ you might understand my reluctance to simply convert.  Even suggesting the Eastern Catholic rites was enough to trigger a negative response.  I think she's already sacrificed her previous family support as a result of converting to Catholicism.  Asking her to go even further at this time when she knows very little about it is just asking too much in my opinion.  My children have also converted and asking them is also a very difficult request.  I want them to love God and place themselves at His mercy, not the constant bickering of men about what's really what.  Too many lies have already been said.  I do not reject Orthodoxy, I just can't embrace it under my circumstances without losing the trust of my children and spouse of 22 years.  Any evidence of doubt simply prevents me from making what I perceive as possibly an necessary leap of faith.  However, I do prefer the Orthodox expression of faith.  Hope that helps. 

As you have said about "official teaching" in Orthodoxy, the same is true in Catholic teaching.  It's just getting the bishops to finally take a clear stance.  It's this attitude that creates doubt in the "RCC" that bother's me.  Just down the road a particular financial scandal occurred that stopped me from furthering my intent to becoming Orthodox.  I figured I needed to better understand true Catholic teaching before making the jump to Orthodoxy.  So far, since I've seen what I perceive as orthodox Catholic teaching, I see no need to convert... yet.  But, who knows, in time what will happen.  I felt that the poor example revealed another down side.  However I've discovered Catholic priests that have committed the same faults.  What I've uncovered that prevents me from fully converting is the terminologies that are used.  Many misuse or poorly define actual meaning, then further botch the teaching by morphing it into something totally bogus.

Truth is, I simply do not trust what any priest or bishop tells me until I can confirm it's authenticity.  I've been lied to enough to justify my feelings towards it.  However, I don't make it a habit of pointing the finger at clergy other than in online discussions to sift through my thoughts and the thoughts of others. 

[KShaft]

One should read Fr Rose's "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" and its section on 'Charismatics'. 

Be warned its not a book for those weak in the faith. It can be scary in a spiritual sort of way because it trully enlightens you to all the spiritual dangers out there and all the facades they put on.

It goes beyond just describing it as heretical. 

[Ortho_cat]

here's an example of such a service, there are 3 parts. Basically indistinguishable from a protestant worship service. I though the spontaneous birthday celebration halfway through was a nice touch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EcgZyYO6ws&feature=related

[Ortho_cat]

here's a miraculous healing service; speaking in tongues, tipping, the whole 9 yards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obsv5ddNnVQ&feature=related

[Marc1152]

I listen to Catholic Radio on the way to Vigil each Saturday. Just Yesterday the guy was making a long defense of Charismatic Gifts and the Catholic Charismatic movement. I was pretty surprised since he is a relatively good apologist most other weeks when I  listen..

I had Protestant Charismatics living next door a few years ago. I live in a town home and we share a common wall. You could here the eerie music they played when they had meetings and then all the shouting and babble. It appeared to me to be demonic..    

[KShaft]

I listen to Catholic Radio on the way to Vigil each Saturday. Just Yesterday the guy was making a long defense of Charismatic Gifts and the Catholic Charismatic movement. I was pretty surprised since he is a relatively good apologist most other weeks when I  listen..

I had Protestant Charismatics living next door a few years ago. I live in a town home and we share a common wall. You could here the eerie music they played when they had meetings and then all the shouting and babble. It appeared to me to be demonic..    

I would not argue against you. There seems to be a lot of hijacking of RC institutions like the Crucio and other things with this nonsense. Perhaps this will overcome the entire RC Church and it being emasculated (Its already too effeminate but this sort of thing would destroy the church) would assimilate or be assimilated into the one world religion.
Dear Lord, this is nothing but a movement formed based on a bunch of protestant morons who (go figure) misunderstand a scripture passage and(once again go figure) make a whole religion out of it which is totally contradictory to the handed down Faith; which not to mention is just spiritualism or mediumism under the guise of "Christianity". Its like holding a seance but saying Jesus instead of *insert pagan god (AKA demon) here*.    These people are totally deceived.  Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner...

[Jack Bauer]

KShaft,
Though, what you've said is rather harsh, I do believe it to be true and a valid position.

[laconicstudent]

I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4

I just threw up a little.

[Jack Bauer]

I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4

I just threw up a little.

That's nothing more than a "Praise Worship".  Been to many of them.  They can be very  uplifting, but nothing compared to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass done properly... or the Divine Liturgy.

[Cavaradossi]

I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4

Wow, the 'tongue' that the celebrant starts chanting in sure does have a suspicious amount of syllables pronounced like [la]; I wonder why that might be. Perhaps the Holy Spirit just wasn't feeling too creative that day.

[Scotty]

Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.

Really? This place isn't far from my folks.  I was interested in visiting an Orthodox Church in the area but only found this "center", and figured I should stay away.  They're probably friends with the Catholic Church down the road famed for the canine altar server.  Now I might have to go recon...

[Vlad]

Essentially what it is is a bunch of RC's who think that by apeing the lamest thing Protestants do they can attract more Protestants. It was practiced in my diocese for awhile but the last Bishop we had said no more. That was a long time ago before I became Orthodox so its possible that they started up again. There was even a Deacon who did "faith healings" at the Cathedral. The whole Benny Hinn slapping you on the head and screaming "satan be gone" thing. I wish I was kidding but I am not.

[laconicstudent]

Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.

Really? This place isn't far from my folks.  I was interested in visiting an Orthodox Church in the area but only found this "center", and figured I should stay away.  They're probably friends with the Catholic Church down the road famed for the canine altar server.  Now I might have to go recon...

No... Please no. "Canine altar server"? 

[Marc1152]

Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.

Really? This place isn't far from my folks.  I was interested in visiting an Orthodox Church in the area but only found this "center", and figured I should stay away.  They're probably friends with the Catholic Church down the road famed for the canine altar server.  Now I might have to go recon...

No... Please no. "Canine altar server"? 

Whoa..hey  What??

[neon_knights]

I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?

[Asteriktos]

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?

Depends on who you ask. I'd say the answer is a definite and strict "sometimes"  

[William]

I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.

Maybe in the lives of the congregation and in their personal theosis. But in their worship? Sorry, but no matter how many nice charismatics I meet all I'll ever see in their worship is a genuine longing for God funneled in a pretty delusional and terribly deficient way.

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?

Yes, especially when we're talking about something that goes against the very core of Christian liturgy like the charismatic movement.

[J Michael]

I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.

Maybe in the lives of the congregation and in their personal theosis. But in their worship? Sorry, but no matter how many nice charismatics I meet all I'll ever see in their worship is a genuine longing for God funneled in a pretty delusional and terribly deficient way.

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?

Yes, especially when we're talking about something that goes against the very core of Christian liturgy like the charismatic movement.

I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.

[William]

Okay, so is it fine to say that maybe the Spirit is present in Santería chicken sacrifices?

[Asteriktos]

I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.

This concept seems to be a recent theological development. I've seen it as early as Khomiakov (19th century), though most probably know it from The Orthodox Church by Met. Kallistos.

[J Michael]

Okay, so is it fine to say that maybe the Spirit is present in Santería chicken sacrifices?

Why don't you tell us?  I only stated what I have heard from a number of Orthodox priests.  Period.

[J Michael]

I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.

This concept seems to be a recent theological development. I've seen it as early as Khomiakov (19th century), though most probably know it from The Orthodox Church by Met. Kallistos.

Is it theologically/ecclesiologically correct or incorrect to state that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not?

[Cavaradossi]

Okay, so is it fine to say that maybe the Spirit is present in Santería chicken sacrifices?

72. The Holy Spirit is not absent from any created being, especially not from one which in any way participates in intelligence. For being God and God's Spirit, He embraces in unity the spiritual knowledge of all created things, providentially permeating all things with His power, and vivifying their inner essences in accordance with their nature. In this way He makes men aware of things done sinfully against the law of nature, and renders them capable of choosing principles which are true and in conformity with nature. Thus we find many barbarians and nomadic peoples turning to a civilized way of life and setting aside the savage laws which they had kept among themselves from time immemorial.
73. The Holy Spirit is present unconditionally in all things, in that He embraces all things, provides for all, and vivifies the natural seeds within them. He is present in a specific way in all who are under the Law, in that He shows them where they have broken the commandments and enlightens them about the promise given concerning Christ. In all who are Christians He is present also in another way in that He makes them sons of God. But in none is He fully present as the author of wisdom except in those who have understanding, and who by their holy way of life have made themselves fit to receive His indwelling and deifying presence. For everyone who does not carry out the divine will, even though he is a believer, has a heart which, being a workshop of evil thoughts, lacks understanding, and a body which, being always entangled in the defilements of the passions, is mortgaged to sin.

St. Maximos the Confessor, compiled in the Philokalia Volume II, pages 180-1.

Can you tell me where the Spirit is not?

[biro]

I engage in chicken sacrifices all the time. They're called sandwiches. 

[Asteriktos]

St. Maximos the Confessor, compiled in the Philokalia Volume II, pages 180-1.

Can you tell me where the Spirit is not?

Most accept the distinction between 1) the Spirit and sacramental grace, and 2) the Holy Spirit existing everywhere. Obviously the Spirit is everywhere and "fills all things"--the universe would cease to exist if the Spirit didn't sustain it. But whether the Holy Spirit makes Catholic sacraments grace-filled, or Methodist fruit juice, or is in Gnostic crackers, or Wiccan... well, you see where I'm going with this...

EDIT--Though looking back, maybe this isn't relevant to you comment. Sorry about that! 

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!) > Topic: Charismatic Catholics? I'm shocked