OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 05:38:56 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Charismatic Catholics? I'm shocked  (Read 5403 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
fanofu2
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Souther Baptist-wanting to become Orthodox
Posts: 8


« on: November 26, 2011, 07:24:18 PM »

I am a Southern Baptist who is interested in converting to Orthodoxy.

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services.  I just don't understand why they would do this.  To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 07:27:48 PM »

Have our fellow Vatican apologists defended this sort of liturgical stuff yet?
profanity removed -username!~ section moderator
 You are being formally warned for using profanity in this post.  Your warning level will last 14 days. Please read oc.net rules again.  You can find it above linked in the toolbar.  If wish to dispute this warning plese contact Fr. Chris -Username! Section Moderator
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:44:23 PM by username! » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 07:27:57 PM »

Logged


I'm going to need this.
fanofu2
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Souther Baptist-wanting to become Orthodox
Posts: 8


« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 07:34:00 PM »

Does anyone have any info on this movement? Is it new?  It's very strange.  Basically Catholics inviting Benny Hinn style protestantism into the Church.

When I found out about it I was just saddened and appalled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obsv5ddNnVQ
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 07:49:24 PM »

Hi Fanfou2! Welcome to OC.net, and may God bless you and guide you on your journey to the Orthodox faith. I am on that same journey, as an ex-Roman Catholic who at long last was blessed with the opportunity to began attending the Coptic Orthodox Church a few months ago.

I must say, I was similarly shocked when I found out about the existence of so-called Charismatic Catholic groups. Luckily, without realizing it at the time I had been baptized into a relatively traditional Roman Catholic parish. It still used the Novus Ordo, but I had never even heard of Charismatic Catholic movements until I moved to another state and began attending a local church that seemed open to such deviations (without being a "Charismatic Catholic" community, thankfully). When I found out about the Charismatics, I immediately went to see my priest for some sort of explanation. He said that they are mainly a development of the 1960s-70s era changes in the modes of worship deemed acceptable in the Western Church, and that he personally doesn't really understand why they're acceptable, either. When I asked him then about some of the, eh...not normative practices in the parish he was currently in, he said he didn't like them either, but the senior priest saw them as a boon to attracting and keeping the youth (this was in a college town).

I'm still not really sure what to think. I preferred then, and suspect I would prefer now, more traditional worship, though I am glad that I do not have to worry about this specific problem in the Coptic church (the Coptic Church has its own problems, particularly in the lands of immigration, but they are not of the same type as the RC charismatics, nor do they receive the sanction that those groups have received from the RC).
Logged

Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,363



« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 08:01:46 PM »

Does anyone have any info on this movement? Is it new?
Nope.

I suppose it is new in the ultimate scale of things, but it's not new in the landscape of American religion, if that's what you're asking.

Quote
It's very strange.  Basically Catholics inviting Benny Hinn style protestantism into the Church.
Not that I approve or anything, but be fair. It's a little more nuanced than that.

Quote
*shrug*

When you're as big as the Catholic church, stuff creeps in. Orthodoxy has been culturally insulated from these kinds of shenanigans for a while, but I suspect as global Pentecostalism really takes hold (and it is certainly on the way) we will see more of it, perhaps not in the liturgy but in syncronistic home devotions. As is, we're not immune to esoteric bullcrap.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 08:02:09 PM by Agabus » Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 08:18:45 PM »

Ahhhhh! Ahhhh! Vassula Ryden! Get it away! Gah...just seeing her name in the link makes me shudder.

She was videotaped some time ago doing her...thing...in a Coptic Church (I can't remember where) where she apparently misrepresented herself as Orthodox to gain some sympathies of the presiding priests (as I suppose she had already gained enough notoriety among the EO and RC to be persona non grata among them). It was the single most horrific thing I have ever seen go on in an Orthodox church. I posted a link to the video on a Coptic message board in hopes of getting some kind of explanation and, boy...let's just say the patience of the Copts does not extend to tolerating such nonsense! Would that the Romans would develop the same intolerance. (Though to their credit, some Catholic leaders have come out against Ms. Ryden in refreshingly explicit terms. How that squares with the acceptance of Charismatic movements in Catholicism, I don't know.)

Logged

William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 09:15:21 PM »

My mom has been to a Charismatic "Mass" a few times. She said that at some point they all go up for a laying on of hands to receive the "Holy Spirit." She said that she was too afraid to go up because others who went up were convulsing and falling over. When I mocked what she was describing, she told me that I was blaspheming the Holy Spirit and was putting my soul in danger.

Some Catholic apologists do a pretty good job of defending their faith in light of all of the terrible liturgical abuses in the Roman Catholic Church today. I have to wonder, though, what they say about stuff like this which is clearly not the work of the Holy Spirit and yet is officially allowed by their hierarchy.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 09:15:55 PM by William » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 01:20:57 AM »

The Catholic church should not be tolerating this stuff... Convulsing, speaking gibberish and passing out are not charismata either in the Bible or Apostolic tradition. Where did people ever even get the idea?
Logged
mathetes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Believer
Jurisdiction: MJAA
Posts: 161



« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 02:28:46 AM »

I am a Southern Baptist who is interested in converting to Orthodoxy.

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services.  I just don't understand why they would do this.  To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?

Your opening post interests me because of the large interdenominational charismatic community, mostly Catholic, about 10 miles from my Messianic Jewish synagogue. I don't speak in tongues, but I've found charismatics to be the most dedicated, outgoing Catholic laypeople I know.

For instance, take the regular protests outside our local Planned Parenthood. All the Cross-carrying protesters are charismatics from the community. Nearly every Bible-toting Catholic I've met is charismatic. If there's any weirdness to their worship, they make up for it by their straight walk in the outside world.


I changed your post to black, red is more reserved for moderators on oc.net, as is green and blue.  -username! section moderator
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 03:25:20 AM by username! » Logged

"Iron sharpens iron, and a man sharpens the countenance of his friend" (Proverbs 27:17 OSB).

"The future isn't what it used to be" (Yogi Berra).
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,363



« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2011, 10:31:07 AM »

The Catholic church should not be tolerating this stuff...


Quote
Convulsing, speaking gibberish and passing out are not charismata either in the Bible or Apostolic tradition. Where did people ever even get the idea?
Let us curtail our condemnations with love..
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2011, 02:38:14 PM »

The Orthodox church has no need of a 'charismatic movement' because it already has charismata, it only doesn't appear so to people who wrongly believe that going into an epileptic fit is a charism.
Logged
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2011, 02:51:22 PM »

To be fair and balanced, there are ALOT of RC and EO folk I know that drop money on those protestant tv evangelist shows.  I have no idea why, other than the notion of "it is all the same God just a different way of saying it,"  and I get that notion because that's what they tell me as to why and I tell them to support their own church not someone who is on tv begging for money to fuel his jet.  So support of evangelical charasmatics is far deeper than just going to chapel and shakin' your tail feather and speaking in babbles like a one years old.
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,264


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 07:03:26 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2011, 07:07:30 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 07:10:07 PM by William » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2011, 07:07:59 PM »

The Catholic church should not be tolerating this stuff...


Quote
Convulsing, speaking gibberish and passing out are not charismata either in the Bible or Apostolic tradition. Where did people ever even get the idea?
Let us curtail our condemnations with love..

Agabus, I always like your dampening of the trumpets . . . Good for you.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2011, 07:11:48 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2011, 07:19:21 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Correct.

Quote
Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
I can't really listen to podcasts, especially not really long ones. I wish there was a transcript.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2011, 07:22:14 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Correct.

Quote
Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
I can't really listen to podcasts, especially not really long ones. I wish there was a transcript.

Is it a tech problem you are having? Maybe someone here can help you with that.

A transcript is only $38.15 and the whole will benefit. //:=)

Or Vollnut could summarize it. (Delegation is one of my strengths.)
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Maximum Bob
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,699


Personal Text? We can have personal text?


« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2011, 08:37:09 PM »

The Catholic church should not be tolerating this stuff... Convulsing, speaking gibberish and passing out are not charismata either in the Bible or Apostolic tradition. Where did people ever even get the idea?
Working backwards, the idea behind passing out is that the presence of God is so strong that the individual cannot stand it and "become as dead men" this sort of thing is sprinkled throughout scripture, think for example of the Roman guards on Jesus tomb come Sunday morning. So it's not something so much that one does or someone does to you as something that just happens.

As to the speaking gibberish, while I cannot say I necessarily believe it all to be genuine, I know a couple who in a time of need were visited by some charismatic types who asked to pray for them. After the charismatics left the husband turned to his wife and commented about the one of the charismatics praying in nothing but gibberish while the other prayed, in English. The wife replied that she heard no gibberish from that person only things like "thank you Jesus", "Praise you Jesus", etc. So what does that mean...hmmm?

Regarding convulsions I really don't know and can't say it appeals to me at all but given the other two points I'd like to discuss and reject, or not, based on understanding rather assumption. That's just me though, and I'm no authority to be sure.
Logged

AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST HAVE PUT ON CHRIST, ALLELEUIA
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,264


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2011, 09:55:33 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?
Well, for starters, I do not believe that the physical convulsions and glosslalia are the work of the Holy Spirit. God, the Holy Spirit, is a the Spirt of order, not disorder. And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.

All of that being said, I have known some very devout Catholic Christians who were invovled in this movement, and who were otherwise very orthodox (little 'o') so I am choose not to fight this particular battle. Rather, I will continue to support and endorse a move towards more traditional piety liturgy. Hopefully as we return to our roots, this "Charismatic" nonsense will simply fade away. I would like to point out that there are some encouraging trends, at least here in NM. Most of the members of the Charistimatic Renewel that I know are headed for or are already at retirment age. From what I can tell, the young people are more attracted to the traditional faith than to anything else.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2011, 10:26:57 AM »

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?
I really don't think about them at all. I'm sure personally it would not be my cup of tea since I had quite a bit of exposure to various charismatic and pentecostal denominations in my Protestant days. I more than got my gut full of it then.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,488


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2011, 02:55:54 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,917



« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2011, 04:39:23 PM »

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

I agree, and I don't think that his assessment is in line with the traditional teachings of the church, or at least the conventional reaction of the rest of the Orthodox world, which has been a unilateral rejection.

I know that there are several books that deal with this phenomenon from an Orthodox perspective, so perhaps people can post some links. Someone posted a newer book with an Orthodox response to Pentecostalism, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. Maybe one of you remembers, because it looked pretty promising.

Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2011, 04:44:23 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

From my memory, he was hardly equating them,  IIRC he doesn't think people did any such thing on Pentecost, but rather everyone heard according to their their own tongue.

I would bet on the former and take medium odds on the latter, so don't hold me to the last statement.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:45:00 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 04:48:59 PM »

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

I agree, and I don't think that his assessment is in line with the traditional teachings of the church, or at least the conventional reaction of the rest of the Orthodox world, which has been a unilateral rejection.

I know that there are several books that deal with this phenomenon from an Orthodox perspective, so perhaps people can post some links. Someone posted a newer book with an Orthodox response to Pentecostalism, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. Maybe one of you remembers, because it looked pretty promising.



How can there be anything approaching a traditional teaching of the Church regarding phenomena that are quite recent? I am speaking directly to the American Pentecostal various "charismatic" experiences.

Frankly, shooting from the hip, 99% of it is mass hysteria, group hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, whatever, but I would be careful to say that the Holy Spirit cannot bring someone to the Truth in this manner.

 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:49:57 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,264


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 04:58:24 PM »

I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

I agree, and I don't think that his assessment is in line with the traditional teachings of the church, or at least the conventional reaction of the rest of the Orthodox world, which has been a unilateral rejection.

I know that there are several books that deal with this phenomenon from an Orthodox perspective, so perhaps people can post some links. Someone posted a newer book with an Orthodox response to Pentecostalism, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was called. Maybe one of you remembers, because it looked pretty promising.



How can there be anything approaching a traditional teaching of the Church regarding phenomena that are quite recent? I am speaking directly to the American Pentecostal various "charismatic" experiences.

Frankly, shooting from the hip, 99% of it is mass hysteria, group hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, whatever, but I would be careful to say that the Holy Spirit cannot bring someone to the Truth in this manner.
Agreed. While these actions are certainly the fruit of error, it would be wrong to say that the Holy Spirit cannot break through to Charismatics anyway.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,917



« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 05:17:56 PM »

Frankly, shooting from the hip, 99% of it is mass hysteria, group hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, whatever, but I would be careful to say that the Holy Spirit cannot bring someone to the Truth in this manner.

Well that isn't exactly a point in their favor, considering that the Holy Spirit can bring someone to truth through just about anything, including through false religions.
Logged
celticfan1888
Production Operator - Chemtrusion
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholicism
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 3,026



« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2011, 05:37:58 PM »

I am a Southern Baptist who is interested in converting to Orthodoxy.

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services.  I just don't understand why they would do this.  To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?

My girlfriend's mother participates in this and my girlfriend and I both think it is crazy. You don't even have to bring up the religious reasons behind it, the speaking in tongues part especially seems very demonic to me.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 05:38:16 PM by celticfan1888 » Logged

Forgive my sins.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2011, 06:28:35 PM »

I am a Southern Baptist who is interested in converting to Orthodoxy.

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services.  I just don't understand why they would do this.  To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?

My girlfriend's mother participates in this and my girlfriend and I both think it is crazy. You don't even have to bring up the religious reasons behind it, the speaking in tongues part especially seems very demonic to me.

What they do is not what happened on Pentecost, but certainly probably something similar to what was going on in Corinth. St. Paul doesn't call them out for being demonic.

I ain't saying these folks are the arc of the Truth and God knows Corinth wasn't St. Paul's twinkle in his eye, but again I think people should be careful about full out writing this stuff off, since something similar is attested to in Scripture and well, not the best way to evangelize.

St. Paul didn't tell the Athenians they were full of it. He took what they had and filled it out for them within the message of Christi crucified.

Seems to me that is exactly what Fr. Thom is doing after speaking with and trying understand people who believed they were genuinely moved by the Holy Spirit.

I guess, every podcast on AFR could be called Here's is how we are right and you wrong, but I don't think it would be very effective.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2011, 06:32:10 PM »

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2011, 06:36:15 PM »

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.

Start writing your letters now. If you ever become Orthodox, you'll already be ready to let the Bishop know what is wrong with your parish.

Before the Chrism was wiped off, my 500 some odd letters were sent.

Can't wait for the replies!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 06:36:26 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2011, 06:38:00 PM »

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.

Start writing your letters now. If you ever become Orthodox, you'll already be ready to let the Bishop know what is wrong with your parish.

Yeah, okay, I get it. You think that being critical of other religions' practices is triumphalistic and overzealous. I disagree. There's really nothing more to be said.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2011, 06:40:56 PM »

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.

Start writing your letters now. If you ever become Orthodox, you'll already be ready to let the Bishop know what is wrong with your parish.

Yeah, okay, I get it. You think that being critical of other religions' practices is triumphalistic and overzealous. I disagree. There's really nothing more to be said.

What is your religion?

Do you think Christianity is a religion?

If so, do you truly think that the RCC and OC are "different" religions?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2011, 06:45:28 PM »

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.

Start writing your letters now. If you ever become Orthodox, you'll already be ready to let the Bishop know what is wrong with your parish.

Yeah, okay, I get it. You think that being critical of other religions' practices is triumphalistic and overzealous. I disagree. There's really nothing more to be said.

What is your religion?
I am an inquirer into Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Smiley

Quote
Do you think Christianity is a religion?
Yes.

Quote
If so, do you truly think that the RCC and OC are "different" religions?

Yes.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2011, 06:50:34 PM »

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.
Yeah, because the Orthodox Church is so good at immediately quashing all "pretender" churches and splinter groups.

Your response seems like you think that it is so easy to address this issue. Every church is struggling with it. The Catholics I know dismiss it as a fad, although there is bigger fish to fry than a small group of charismatic Catholics. Frankly, growing up, we thought they were freaks.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,363



« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2011, 06:51:20 PM »

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.
Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2011, 07:09:36 PM »

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.
Yeah, because the Orthodox Church is so good at immediately quashing all "pretender" churches and splinter groups.
There are many Charismatic Catholics who are neither pretenders nor splinter groups, but are in full communion with Rome with the blessing and approval of its pope.

Quote
Your response seems like you think that it is so easy to address this issue.
Sad

It'd be nice, at the very least, if it wasn't actively encouraged by popes and bishops.

And as for Bishops that allow this sort of thing, I'm not quite sure what they are supposed to do to get it to go away.
They should stop encouraging it. I'd even go so far as to say that they ought to condemn it as spiritually dangerous.
Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.
What does he do? The only thing obvious from his webpage is that he gives inane, Protestantized sermons. Does he do glossolalia or convulsions?

Have Orthodox bishops and patriarchs endorsed his message as vital for the Church like RC popes have with their charismatics? Is the situation really analogous?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2011, 07:16:45 PM »


When you're as big as the Catholic church, stuff creeps in. Orthodoxy has been culturally insulated from these kinds of shenanigans for a while, but I suspect as global Pentecostalism really takes hold (and it is certainly on the way) we will see more of it, perhaps not in the liturgy but in syncronistic home devotions. As is, we're not immune to esoteric bullcrap.
I'll just repeat this (good posts in this thread, Agabus, btw).

It's a case of dictating to other denominations, over and over, what our Church isn't immune to and certainly hasn't solved itself.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,363



« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2011, 07:23:03 PM »

What does he do? The only thing obvious from his webpage is that he gives inane, Protestantized sermons. Does he do glossolalia or convulsions?
In a liturgical setting, as far as I can tell, no... But, to paraphrase an author that many evangelicals-turned-Orthodox like to quote, take that website and go further out and deeper in. The more you read the more charismatic-Pentecostal material you will find. And teaching it is just as bad as practicing it if it's heresy. (I reserve judgment.) I am not sure what he does outside of a liturgical setting.

Quote
Have Orthodox bishops and patriarchs endorsed his message as vital for the Church like RC popes have with their charismatics?
You're changing the game now. You said RC bishops should condemn it. Now you're saying, "At least we haven't endorsed it."

There is a difference, my friend.
 
Quote
Is the situation really analogous?
Not in every jot and tittle, but I try not to throw any stones if I am not without sin, even if my sin is lesser. I have read the writing in the dirt, or the Internet. Whatever.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:24:07 PM by Agabus » Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,239


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2011, 07:33:16 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Correct.

Quote
Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
I can't really listen to podcasts, especially not really long ones. I wish there was a transcript.

Is it a tech problem you are having? Maybe someone here can help you with that.

A transcript is only $38.15 and the whole will benefit. //:=)

Or Vollnut could summarize it. (Delegation is one of my strengths.)

I always enjoy reading your posts.
So, what should I do now that my flash driver has crashed.
I do not like the alternative of paying $38.15.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:35:08 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2011, 10:04:48 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Correct.

Quote
Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
I can't really listen to podcasts, especially not really long ones. I wish there was a transcript.

Is it a tech problem you are having? Maybe someone here can help you with that.

A transcript is only $38.15 and the whole will benefit. //:=)

Or Vollnut could summarize it. (Delegation is one of my strengths.)

I always enjoy reading your posts.
So, what should I do now that my flash driver has crashed.
I do not like the alternative of paying $38.15.

Repeat the bolded portion of your post several times and you might flatter Orthonorm into transcribing the podcast himself. laugh

Alternatively (and more seriously), try downloading the latest version of flash if you don't have it (do podcasts use flash?). That could potentially solve your problem, although it may not.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 10:05:28 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Maximum Bob
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,699


Personal Text? We can have personal text?


« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2011, 10:40:26 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
I listened to Fr. Hopko's podcast about it and it seemed like to me that he was trying to equate the tongues mentioned in the scriptures to the tongues spoken by the P. holiness and Charismatics. I personally believe there is a distinct difference between them. I happen to think that the tongues today is complete hogwash. Especially after there was a study about it and the folks doing the study had 3 or 4 "translators" and they all said radically different things. I'll try to find the study.

Fr. Hopko was being very generous in his comments. A little too generous IMO.

From my memory, he was hardly equating them,  IIRC he doesn't think people did any such thing on Pentecost, but rather everyone heard according to their their own tongue.

I would bet on the former and take medium odds on the latter, so don't hold me to the last statement.

I listened to that one and that's how I remember it too.


Frankly, shooting from the hip, 99% of it is mass hysteria, group hypnosis, auto-hypnosis, whatever, but I would be careful to say that the Holy Spirit cannot bring someone to the Truth in this manner.

Allow me to piggyback on this by also asking how do we go  about limiting what the Holy Spirit can do and how he acts? Have not some of the fools for Christ been known to do very odd things that we would find most unsettling were we to witness them ourselves, yet with the majority consensus of the church being that ultimately they were acting in a manner that  was led of God?
Logged

AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST HAVE PUT ON CHRIST, ALLELEUIA
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2011, 10:50:57 PM »

I can tell you this much... traditional Catholics oppose the "Charismatic Movement".

How much do they oppose it? Do you they reject that the Holy Spirit is at work in such physical convulsions and glossolalia? Do they attempt to justify their bishops' allowance of these practices?

You think that the Holy Spirit cannot act in this way?

Correct.

Quote
Of course I am broken record, but I really do think this is one of the most charitable, honest, and refreshing takes on the "charismatic gifts":

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_gift_the_gifts_and_glossolalia

Check it out and let me know what you think.
I can't really listen to podcasts, especially not really long ones. I wish there was a transcript.

Is it a tech problem you are having? Maybe someone here can help you with that.

A transcript is only $38.15 and the whole will benefit. //:=)

Or Vollnut could summarize it. (Delegation is one of my strengths.)

I always enjoy reading your posts.
So, what should I do now that my flash driver has crashed.
I do not like the alternative of paying $38.15.

Repeat the bolded portion of your post several times and you might flatter Orthonorm into transcribing the podcast himself. laugh

Alternatively (and more seriously), try downloading the latest version of flash if you don't have it (do podcasts use flash?). That could potentially solve your problem, although it may not.

I am unsure what you mean Maria about your flash driver. I am sure with all the nerd brain power around here, your problem can be solved.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
KShaft
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 244



« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2011, 02:42:28 AM »

I am a Southern Baptist who is interested in converting to Orthodoxy.

I considered the RCC, but I was shocked and appalled when I found out that they allow Charismatic/pentecostal styled worship services.  I just don't understand why they would do this.  To me, this style of "worship" always seemed crazy and animalistic.

I was just really shocked, and I never imagined in my wildest dreams that the RCC would have such a thing. That pretty much destroyed any chances I have of converting to the RCC.

Anyone else have thoughts about Charismatic Catholics?

I went to the crussio which used to be for lapsed Catholics to get em back serious into the church (and still is). It started in Spain, so I imagine it was more orthodox back in those pre-VII days. Now the Charismatic movement has pretty much taken it over.  Not to get into details about the crussio, I got physically sick when I went there. The whole time I was there, I really didnt like it and it never grew on me. There was a Eastern Catholic church across the way (Holy Ghost in Cleveland, Oh which was closed I did not Know) but I longed to go to the domes while I was there. I thought I got sick because of exposure to lots of guys. They had one of those re-energizing things a month later in Lorain and I started to be sick again before I even entered in. I said to myself "Thats it Im done with this crap. I despise it and Im not going just to make others feel better."

I think the whole movement is definitely heretical if not satanic. Theres lots of Roman Catholics who feel its an abomination, particularly the more orthodox/traditional ones.  So you arent the only one, and I can see why it would deter you. First the NO(written by protestants only as banal as they somehow contrive) now this and abuse scandals etc... The Church is being compromised from within. Lord have mercy. Its maddening and tragic at the same time. 
Logged
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,919


« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2011, 10:43:19 AM »

I have a deeply skeptical perception of the charismatic expressions but I wonder if such things emerge because there may be gifted laity who are not provided proper outlets in which gifts can be manifested. Mediocrity & stagnant functionalism seem the status quo in the overall situation whether among Catholics, Orthodox, or Protestants (some parishes thrive but most do not).
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,239


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2011, 05:08:00 PM »




I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope.  Roll Eyes

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,174


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2011, 05:21:33 PM »




I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope.  Roll Eyes

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.


I'm sure he could use prayers from all of us, even as he prays for us all.  Even Orthodox  Roll Eyes.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,239


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2011, 05:58:44 PM »




I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope.  Roll Eyes

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.


I'm sure he could use prayers from all of us, even as he prays for us all.  Even Orthodox  Roll Eyes.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on Pope Benedict XVI.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2011, 06:50:33 PM »




I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope.  Roll Eyes

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.

The man is 80 some years old living a schedule with responsibilities that would challenge a 30 year old.  Many years to him and his dedication to his flock.  Not to mention he is Europe's only absolute monarch as well, performing state functions, bishop functions, travel, etc.. writing books, I'm sure it isn't easy.  When they announced he was to be pope it didn't surprise me.  Not too many other men were as qualified as him as he was John Paul II's right hand man. 
Logged

username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2011, 06:52:57 PM »

I'm not into the charismatic movement myself, never would be.  However the faith and prayer that I have seen from the local Catholics is stellar who participate in the local Cathedral's charismatic movement. There are different ways of praying, if this is their way, who am I to judge.  They take care of the poor, etc.. as well.  It brings them together, the RCC allows it, hence, in the eyes of the RCC it is an acceptable movement.
Logged

Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2011, 07:06:05 PM »

I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4

Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,239


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2011, 07:25:54 PM »

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
KShaft
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 244



« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2011, 03:40:48 AM »

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

Amen, May the Holy Trinity be praised!
Logged
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2011, 06:04:04 AM »

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

Amen, May the Holy Trinity be praised!
So you're praising that they knowingly left the Catholic Faith?

I love the Divine Liturgy but I'm perfectly happy to serve in it at a Ruthenian Catholic parish.


Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
KShaft
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 244



« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2011, 05:44:29 PM »

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

Amen, May the Holy Trinity be praised!
So you're praising that they knowingly left the Catholic Faith?

I love the Divine Liturgy but I'm perfectly happy to serve in it at a Ruthenian Catholic parish.


Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!

 They never left the Catholic Faith, rather they came to it undefiled. Better to be Orthodox Catholic than heretical under the Pope.  The allowing of a truly non-Christian form of Christianity in what was/is an a apostolic Church is an abomination. The protestant written liturgy(NO) was bad enough to go from 70% Mass attendance to 30% practically overnight. The Church was undermined and utterly confused as if it had lost its way because indeed it had in a severe way. So splinter groups started popping up here and there DISOBEYING THE POPE in order to maintain the Western orthodox Faith and Liturgy. In other words they thought orthodoxy was more important than obedience to the Pope. And this has happened in the past with other things, including the events at Vatican I. Read your history. The papacy had been used as a unifying tool by secular powers after the Franks took it over. Of course obedience even in the siding with hell would be a desired attribute for bishops, priests, and laity alike. Also the lunatic protestants who weren't moved by love of the faith but by hatred of Rome. An understandable disillusionment on many things, but the throwing out the baby with the bath water for their man made traditions and philosophies was abominable. It is good that you did not let that cloud your judgement as many converts to Orthodoxy continue to do so foolishly.

 One can look at it as a parallel to what happened in Russia with the Old believers, but the differences between the EF Mass and the NO Mass are night and day where as the differences in Liturgy between the more Greek (at the time) Liturgy of the Nikon reforms are minimal compared to the OB rite and doesn't compromise the Faith in any way and was perfectly orthodox with the Greeks(although the OB thought it was a sign of worldly apostasy and the end of the world). Its not a real parallel, because of the overreaction on the OB part but the reaction itself is somewhat understandable (not the extent they took it to which was lunacy in some instances) and even more so with Roman Catholics on a total perversion of the tradition handed down by Apostles and Church Fathers by heretics.  And one should not listen to whatever Pope authorizes such heretics to write the cornerstone of your Faith which is the Liturgy or who authorized it to be used once completed. Why should one obey a Pope who compromises the Faith and brings the church into mire? There needs to be Pauls to the Peter and withstand him to his face and return him to the Faith of his Fathers. Not let him continue to error, like a parent too afraid to discipline his child because the child might resent him, or someone too afraid to speak the truth of an injustice because of the consequences. Save the man and the Church. This nonsense of follow the Pope at all costs no matter what else he has done or effected is lunacy.  
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 05:54:46 PM by KShaft » Logged
WetCatechumen
Roman Catholic
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic Christianity
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite - Archdiocese of Santa Fe; Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Phoenix
Posts: 297



« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2011, 06:05:35 PM »

I know some converts from Roman Catholicism who were highly involved in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

When they encountered the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, they were blown away.

Although they had expected the Divine Liturgy to be a quiet Mass like the Traditional Latin Mass, the constant chant between the Priest and the Congregation, the litanies, the processions, the incense, the beautiful vestments, icons, and candle lighting moved them to tears. In addition, the words of the Liturgy were so devout that the entire experience was that of heavenly worship. They knew they were home.

Amen, May the Holy Trinity be praised!
So you're praising that they knowingly left the Catholic Faith?

I love the Divine Liturgy but I'm perfectly happy to serve in it at a Ruthenian Catholic parish.


Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!

 They never left the Catholic Faith, rather they came to it undefiled. Better to be Orthodox Catholic than heretical under the Pope.  The allowing of a truly non-Christian form of Christianity in what was/is an a apostolic Church is an abomination. The protestant written liturgy(NO) was bad enough to go from 70% Mass attendance to 30% practically overnight. The Church was undermined and utterly confused as if it had lost its way because indeed it had in a severe way. So splinter groups started popping up here and there DISOBEYING THE POPE in order to maintain the Western orthodox Faith. In other words they thought orthodoxy was more important than obedience to the Pope. And this has happened in the past with other things, including the events at Vatican I. Read your history. The papacy had been used as a unifying tool by secular powers after the Franks took it over. Of course obedience even in the siding with hell would be a desired attribute for bishops, priests, and laity alike. Also the lunatic protestants who weren't moved by love of the faith but by hatred of Rome. An understandable disillusionment on many things, but the throwing out the baby with the bath water for their man made traditions and philosophies was abominable. It is good that you did not let that cloud your judgement as many converts to Orthodoxy continue to do so foolishly.

 One can look at it as a parallel to what happened in Russia with the Old believers, but the differences between the EF Mass and the NO Mass are night and day where as the differences in Liturgy between the more Greek (at the time) Liturgy of the Nikon reforms are minimal compared to the OB rite and doesn't compromise the Faith in any way and was perfectly orthodox with the Greeks(although the OB thought it was a sign of worldly apostasy and the end of the world). Its not a real parallel, because of the overreaction on the OB part but the reaction itself is somewhat understandable (not the extent they took it to which was lunacy in some instances) and even more so with Roman Catholics on a total perversion of the tradition handed down by Apostles and Church Fathers by heretics.  And one should not listen to whatever Pope authorizes such heretics to write the cornerstone of your Faith which is the Liturgy or who authorized it to be used once completed. Why should one obey a Pope who compromises the Faith and brings the church into mire? There needs to be Pauls to the Peter and withstand him to his face and return him to the Faith of his Fathers. Not let him continue to error, like a parent too afraid to discipline his child because the child might resent him, or someone too afraid to speak the truth of an injustice because of the consequences. Save the man and the Church. This nonsense of follow the Pope at all costs no matter what else he has done or effected is lunacy. 
I'm guessing that by your religion being "Catholic" you mean "not Catholic" and by your jurisdiction being "Roman" you mean "none". Unless you mean "Orthodox" and "Romanian Diocese of Italy". Which knowing the words games some posters like to play on the board it's a possibility, although I suspect the former is more likely. Of course it's also possible you are in a canonical society such as the FSSP or ICRSP.

This is what I heard from you: "I don't like the Mass of Paul VI! Therefore the Pope is a practical heretic!" And no, His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is a wonderful Pope and wonderful Christian who has done an excellent job of managing the flock pastorally while bluntly promoting orthodoxy in the face of many trials in the modern world. Furthermore, despite the fact that you dislike the New Order of the Mass, it cannot be held to be strictly less valid in a moral sense than the old Mass. Liturgical reforms are necessary and often needed. Should it have been as great? I don't think so - I'm a big fan of little t tradition. But the bishops voted nearly unanimously that we needed to change.

But what you've just done is to slander the Apostolic Church and those to whom it has been entrusted, as well as to compromise the Catholic Faith.
Logged

"And because they have nothing better to do, they take cushion and chairs to Rome. And while the Pope is saying liturgy, they go, 'Oh, oh, oh, filioque!' And the Pope say, 'Filioque? That-uh sound nice! I think I divide-uh the Church over it!'" - Comrade Real Presence
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2011, 06:42:27 PM »

Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!
My thoughts exactly.
Logged
Jack Bauer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 35



« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2011, 02:07:10 PM »

Does anyone have any info on this movement? Is it new?
Nope.

I suppose it is new in the ultimate scale of things, but it's not new in the landscape of American religion, if that's what you're asking.

Quote
It's very strange.  Basically Catholics inviting Benny Hinn style protestantism into the Church.
Not that I approve or anything, but be fair. It's a little more nuanced than that.

Quote
*shrug*

When you're as big as the Catholic church, stuff creeps in. Orthodoxy has been culturally insulated from these kinds of shenanigans for a while, but I suspect as global Pentecostalism really takes hold (and it is certainly on the way) we will see more of it, perhaps not in the liturgy but in syncronistic home devotions. As is, we're not immune to esoteric bullcrap.
Shocked
You see?  This is why I hesitate to convert without serious lengthy discernment.  The charismatic group of the Catholic Charismatic Movement is what tainted my view of Catholicism and why I defected to the Church of Christ, a seemingly obscure restoration movement to me now.  Simply put, I thought I was going to hell if I didn't put away my papist beliefs and get baptized "correctly...by submersion. 

The Charistmatics insiste that they are present in the early church, which seems really far fetched to me.  It is an embarrassment to me.  I watched one crazy lady speaking directly to the Pope one year as she itterated a bunch of self-induldged non-sense as he watched and listened.  He had a strange look on his face that said, "who the ____ is this crazy woman".  It really looked that way to me.  This occurred sometime in 2007 if memory serves me.  I was still looking seriously at Orhtodoxy.  But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well.  So, no jumping ships for me without getting a strong standing on what's what.  Jumping ship for what a few "i-dots" do is not the right answer.  So, when you discern, do not discern over things like clergy sex scandal.  I've been told directly by some promenent priests I've spoke with that the Orthodox has their share of problems, which is one of the main reasons I hesitated to make the leap while we were still fresh in our conversion the the ancient church. 

However, with that said, when I look at the ancient One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is see Orthodox Christianity. I still haven't seen the part that we're taught the Ordinary [previously known as the Novus Ordo or new order].  I was thrilled to see the official acceptance of the TLM but can't get my wife interested in attending one.  Her protestant ways prevent her from going that far I guess.  Now, we're lucky in our parish.  The Franciscans say mass in a very reverent way and will accept nothing that attempts to turn it into a zoo festival.  He's made it clear that although the Holy Spirit speak to us and may even move us, he says he'll splash you with holy water until you stop so that order can be brought back into the worship.  He's very reverent and one of them even says the mass in Latin.  However, he's been instructed not to do so by what I call "the resistence."   Grin  Frankly, I'm tired of the dissenters.  But I see Orthodoxy have them too.  As Orthodoxy grows, which I see more clearly now, they too will have similar problems.  The saying "power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely". 

I'll be following these discussions.  I'm in a program that leads towards the diaconate program acceptance, which is currently suspended, which I have strong opinions about imprudent abscission, like the use of EMHCs when not necessary.  Talk about a bunch of egomaniacs.  Because of the "shows" I witnessed from individual EMHCs I chose to participate as an EMHC just to get rid of some of the drama.  The priest is the one who is the ordinary minister of holy communion and I've never seen one carry on so dramatically, even though he could.  I'm also tired of the push towards ordaining women priests and deacons.  Female alter servers are a stretch for me.  But I see the Orthodox are doing similar.  What happened to the world while I was in the Church of Christ?
Logged

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
Jack Bauer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 35



« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2011, 02:08:32 PM »

Also, I converted from being an evangelical charismatic . . . I really don't want any vestiges of that false religion to be present in the Apostolic Church of which I am a part. It is frustrating. I left that religion for a reason!
My thoughts exactly.
Big Thumbs Up emotocon from me.
Logged

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
Jack Bauer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 35



« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2011, 02:10:59 PM »




I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope.  Roll Eyes

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.

Is this the day that crazy lady was carrying on about the Charismatic movement I spoke about?  Looks about right.  The pope is in pain just listening to her crazy words.  I'm expecting this Charismatic movement to be rooted out like an abscessed tooth.
Logged

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
LBK
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,168


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2011, 04:39:58 PM »

Quote
But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well.

Charismatic Orthodox? In close to 50 years of being Orthodox, over several jurisdictions and a couple of countries, I've never seen it, nor has any priest I've known condoned it.

Quote
I'm also tired of the push towards ordaining women priests and deacons.  Female alter servers are a stretch for me.  But I see the Orthodox are doing similar.

The ordination of female priests is a non-starter, and always will be. Female altar servers have been experimented with by a minuscule number of individual parishes in one jurisdiction, to the horror and consternation of everyone else in the world. Deaconesses? Not for performing the liturgical functions of a deacon. The ancient deaconess was not a female deacon.
Logged
Agabus
The user formerly known as Agabus.
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Pan-American Colloquial Convert Hybrid Orthodoxy.
Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
Posts: 2,363



« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2011, 07:18:05 PM »

I was still looking seriously at Orhtodoxy.  But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well. 
FWIW, the two examples I have posted were minuscule minority reports.  But they do exist, and people within the Orthodox Church are not immune to error, even charismatic error. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise is in serious delusion. As for Ryden, the EP has excommunicated her.

If what you're referring to as 'interesting movements' within Orthodoxy are old world folk practices -- well the Catholic church has its own share of strange devotions. (Most folk practices don't bother me, even if they aren't part of the official faith. There's paper faith, and then there's organic faith as it's seen on the ground. Heck, the cults of many saints started as folk movements.)
Logged

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
WUnland
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditional Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Japan / Bayern
Posts: 44


« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2011, 03:16:35 AM »

I am self described as a "traditional Catholic".  I think that the post Vat II changes to the Mass in the USA have been a disaster.  I am not a cradle Catholic, but a convert from German Baptist.  Way back when I had the privilege of attending a real Latin High Mass.  That memory has stuck with me for 50 some years now.  The Roman Rite "CAN" be as beautiful and worshipful as the Orthodox.  Unfortunately in most of the US it is NOT.

I really hate "most" NO masses, let alone Charismatic ones.  I have been to some very pious and beautiful NO masses in Germany, but not in the USA.  When I am in the US I attend a Polish parish that offers the Latin rite as a matter of my own choice. I make no claim that the NO is not licit.  I am not in that camp.

Here in Japan it is considered a "mission" church and the Mass is a simplified NO that does NOT follow GRIM.  The order and prayers are totally different than that considered the norm anywhere else that I have been. That said I have been to some very pious services here.

That out of the way, I seriously do not personally "like" the Charismatics, particularly the Neo-Cats. My like or dislike however; has nothing to do with the Church's embrace of them.  Trying to attract the young is ALWAYS the excuse given.  Make it more attractive, more Protestant and they will come has been the Churches approach in the USA since Vat II.  In my worthless opinion they have destroyed what was left of Roman Catholic traditions, and have turned the liturgy into a circus. It is very cult like here with "us" and "them" separate congregations.  They stay out of the other parish functions, make their own collections, and do not contribute to the Church.


I am in no position to say whether the actions of Charismatics is divinely inspired, only God knows that, but to me their antics are too much self driven to be representative of true inspiration of the Spirit.  "Look at me I'm dead in the Spirit" seems to be the cry as they "faint". MY faith is so strong, so much better than yours that I can speak in tongues, and so forth.  This is NOT how God works.  The SELF is not to be put in the spotlight.  They may indeed be serious and do good works outside of the liturgy, but their destruction of the traditions of my Church do not make me comfortable in the least.

I joined the RCC to be Catholic, not Protestant.  If I could I would go back to the pre-VatII Church, but alas I cannot.  In obedience I accept my Church's position regarding the council BUT that does not mean that I can't have an opinion.  My confessor has made it clear to me that obedience to Church authority can never go against conscience.  With that I can assure you that I will never join in the circus that has become my Church in many places in the world.  I will remain faithful, but also respectful of tradition. I dare say there is nothing else that I can do.

Regards,
William Unland
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 03:18:04 AM by WUnland » Logged
Jack Bauer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 35



« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2011, 05:05:21 AM »

Well, though our pastor doesn't seem to "endorse" Charismatic agendas, he has allowed some rather interesting abuses to continue until the bishop intervened.  I fear that my complaint via email may have provoked the investigation across the wider diocese.  Either that or coincidentally someone else complained enough to provoke the research of EMHCs "blessing" communicants that do not receive - if that makes sense.  I am an EMHC, not because I'm comfortable with doing it completely, but because of my reverence for the Eucharist and understanding of the intent behind their use.  I get it, but I don't get it when EMHCs unecessarily try to draw attention with these enormously exagerated postures of raising the Eucharist above their head and saying with profound dramatic voice inflections "Thheeeee BODdddddyyy of CHriiiiiiiissssssst!".  This along with other similar abuses really crawls under my skin.  My personal belief, of my own authority Wink, lends to my huge question:  "if we are so short of priest needing help communing the faithful, then why not ordain more deacons or allowed married priests.  If the standards were elevated, as they should, then why not allow orthodox Catholic married men to study for the priesthood?  I used to beleive it would prevent all of these abuses because an experienced father would have a little sanity about him after raising his own children... hopefully.  It was a couple of Orthodox priests that lectured me, more like mentored me, into the errors of my thinking.  So I conceded to continue in the Latin Rite, and accept the teachings without dissent.  I am seeing evidence that even the bishops of the so called Roman Catholic Church are revealing the possibility of Catholics historically "over interpretting" actions and intentions... similar to the VCII "spirit of Vatican II" experience. 

Example:  Hearing converts discuss more deeply the issues they had helped me to understand more of the objections I had towards the OHCAC.  Infant baptism, celibate only priesthood, confession/absolution, confirmation, grace/faith/works debate, hierarchy, symbol/icon/statue use, rosary, Theotokos, New Adam/New Eve, original sin, real presence, etc.  Many of these issues I can just feel the rejection.  But I'd argue that those that cringe at things like "original sin" really don't understand the actual teaching on the subject.  I think that many priests in the past were more concerned at showing off their ability to engage in flamboyant theological discussions, but failed miserably at conveying the real meaning of such subjects. 

Most all of the "Charismatic" priests I've known are no longer practicing priests.  The irony is that Carry Landry's music is still included in mass.  No offense, but even though I grew up on his music, I loath it in the context of mass.  I have pics of him from charismatic renewal retreats at Franciscan University in my youth.  He was a pastor in a college campus parish where I attended.  My aunt knew him pretty well.  She's still charismatic.  She also attends an Assemblies of God church as well as Catholic Church.  I know other charismatics that have also dissented into such illicit behavior.  One of those charismatic priest presided over my father and stepmother's illicit wedding cerimony, thus really messing my father up even more.  Not having grown up Catholic I didn't understand what happened until I grew up.  It seemed to me that a collection of priests who were all cousins were quite committed to doing illicit things.  Only one remains a priest and hasn't returned my messages.  He probably lives in fear now that he knows I turned in his other cousin that made a pass on me.

I don't want to dump the entire priest scandal on the Charismatic movement.  But since it's all I knew about Catholicism growing up, it just draws conclusions towards that concept.  I haven't heard one scandal yet from the Orthodoxy Church.  I'm sure there's dirt in there somewhere because of human nature.  But with the illicit dissent in the Catholic Church taking place, the sexual scandals just pop out of the pages of the paper much worst.  Either that or there is an effective campaign going on that makes the issue seem much less than it could be.  I don't know. 

My personal experience with the Charismatic Movement is that it is a false expression of Christ - my opinion.  But, I wouldn't publicly come out of the pews to take such a stance knowing the possible character assassinations that would follow.  Been there.  I've seen too many people fake tongues and falling on the ground.  Those that engaged in it are mostly now fallen away completely, living sexually immoral lifestyles, or practicing dual religions.  Most.  Only a few have let go of the past to engage in more orthodox beliefs.  With all of the massive confusion my hope is that God has mercy on us all as we all deserve death.
Logged

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
Jack Bauer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 35



« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2011, 05:24:43 AM »

I was still looking seriously at Orhtodoxy.  But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well. 
FWIW, the two examples I have posted were minuscule minority reports.  But they do exist, and people within the Orthodox Church are not immune to error, even charismatic error. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise is in serious delusion. As for Ryden, the EP has excommunicated her.

If what you're referring to as 'interesting movements' within Orthodoxy are old world folk practices -- well the Catholic church has its own share of strange devotions. (Most folk practices don't bother me, even if they aren't part of the official faith. There's paper faith, and then there's organic faith as it's seen on the ground. Heck, the cults of many saints started as folk movements.)

Well, I'm intentionally being vague and avoiding conflict.  I have read enough to make me hesitate towards converting to Orthodoxy.  However, my stalemate is really caused from my wife's expression of faith in Catholicism.  I'm trying to be very careful to preserve our family unit.  If you knew her background in the Church of Christ you might understand my reluctance to simply convert.  Even suggesting the Eastern Catholic rites was enough to trigger a negative response.  I think she's already sacrificed her previous family support as a result of converting to Catholicism.  Asking her to go even further at this time when she knows very little about it is just asking too much in my opinion.  My children have also converted and asking them is also a very difficult request.  I want them to love God and place themselves at His mercy, not the constant bickering of men about what's really what.  Too many lies have already been said.  I do not reject Orthodoxy, I just can't embrace it under my circumstances without losing the trust of my children and spouse of 22 years.  Any evidence of doubt simply prevents me from making what I perceive as possibly an necessary leap of faith.  However, I do prefer the Orthodox expression of faith.  Hope that helps. 

As you have said about "official teaching" in Orthodoxy, the same is true in Catholic teaching.  It's just getting the bishops to finally take a clear stance.  It's this attitude that creates doubt in the "RCC" that bother's me.  Just down the road a particular financial scandal occurred that stopped me from furthering my intent to becoming Orthodox.  I figured I needed to better understand true Catholic teaching before making the jump to Orthodoxy.  So far, since I've seen what I perceive as orthodox Catholic teaching, I see no need to convert... yet.  But, who knows, in time what will happen.  I felt that the poor example revealed another down side.  However I've discovered Catholic priests that have committed the same faults.  What I've uncovered that prevents me from fully converting is the terminologies that are used.  Many misuse or poorly define actual meaning, then further botch the teaching by morphing it into something totally bogus.

Truth is, I simply do not trust what any priest or bishop tells me until I can confirm it's authenticity.  I've been lied to enough to justify my feelings towards it.  However, I don't make it a habit of pointing the finger at clergy other than in online discussions to sift through my thoughts and the thoughts of others. 
Logged

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
KShaft
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 244



« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2011, 01:13:42 PM »


One should read Fr Rose's "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" and its section on 'Charismatics'. 

Be warned its not a book for those weak in the faith. It can be scary in a spiritual sort of way because it trully enlightens you to all the spiritual dangers out there and all the facades they put on.

It goes beyond just describing it as heretical. 
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2011, 03:46:12 PM »

here's an example of such a service, there are 3 parts. Basically indistinguishable from a protestant worship service. I though the spontaneous birthday celebration halfway through was a nice touch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EcgZyYO6ws&feature=related
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2011, 03:56:29 PM »

here's a miraculous healing service; speaking in tongues, tipping, the whole 9 yards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obsv5ddNnVQ&feature=related
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 03:58:26 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,092


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2011, 04:04:41 PM »

I listen to Catholic Radio on the way to Vigil each Saturday. Just Yesterday the guy was making a long defense of Charismatic Gifts and the Catholic Charismatic movement. I was pretty surprised since he is a relatively good apologist most other weeks when I  listen..

I had Protestant Charismatics living next door a few years ago. I live in a town home and we share a common wall. You could here the eerie music they played when they had meetings and then all the shouting and babble. It appeared to me to be demonic..    
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 04:05:49 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
KShaft
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 244



« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2011, 08:31:45 PM »

I listen to Catholic Radio on the way to Vigil each Saturday. Just Yesterday the guy was making a long defense of Charismatic Gifts and the Catholic Charismatic movement. I was pretty surprised since he is a relatively good apologist most other weeks when I  listen..

I had Protestant Charismatics living next door a few years ago. I live in a town home and we share a common wall. You could here the eerie music they played when they had meetings and then all the shouting and babble. It appeared to me to be demonic..    

I would not argue against you. There seems to be a lot of hijacking of RC institutions like the Crucio and other things with this nonsense. Perhaps this will overcome the entire RC Church and it being emasculated (Its already too effeminate but this sort of thing would destroy the church) would assimilate or be assimilated into the one world religion.
Dear Lord, this is nothing but a movement formed based on a bunch of protestant morons who (go figure) misunderstand a scripture passage and(once again go figure) make a whole religion out of it which is totally contradictory to the handed down Faith; which not to mention is just spiritualism or mediumism under the guise of "Christianity". Its like holding a seance but saying Jesus instead of *insert pagan god (AKA demon) here*.    These people are totally deceived.  Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner...
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 08:32:33 PM by KShaft » Logged
Jack Bauer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 35



« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2011, 12:57:06 AM »

KShaft,
Though, what you've said is rather harsh, I do believe it to be true and a valid position.
Logged

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2011, 01:08:38 AM »

I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4



I just threw up a little.
Logged
Jack Bauer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Latin Rite
Posts: 35



« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2011, 02:40:19 AM »

I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4



I just threw up a little.
That's nothing more than a "Praise Worship".  Been to many of them.  They can be very  uplifting, but nothing compared to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass done properly... or the Divine Liturgy.
Logged

“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2011, 09:17:58 AM »

I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4



Wow, the 'tongue' that the celebrant starts chanting in sure does have a suspicious amount of syllables pronounced like [la]; I wonder why that might be. Perhaps the Holy Spirit just wasn't feeling too creative that day. Roll Eyes
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Scotty
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Portland
Posts: 86



« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2012, 09:52:16 AM »


Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.

Really? This place isn't far from my folks.  I was interested in visiting an Orthodox Church in the area but only found this "center", and figured I should stay away.  They're probably friends with the Catholic Church down the road famed for the canine altar server.  Now I might have to go recon...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 09:53:23 AM by Scotty » Logged
Vlad
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox, Greek Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 405



« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2012, 12:25:44 PM »

Essentially what it is is a bunch of RC's who think that by apeing the lamest thing Protestants do they can attract more Protestants. It was practiced in my diocese for awhile but the last Bishop we had said no more. That was a long time ago before I became Orthodox so its possible that they started up again. There was even a Deacon who did "faith healings" at the Cathedral. The whole Benny Hinn slapping you on the head and screaming "satan be gone" thing. I wish I was kidding but I am not.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 12:28:01 PM by Vlad » Logged
laconicstudent
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 319


« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2012, 02:06:58 PM »


Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.

Really? This place isn't far from my folks.  I was interested in visiting an Orthodox Church in the area but only found this "center", and figured I should stay away.  They're probably friends with the Catholic Church down the road famed for the canine altar server.  Now I might have to go recon...

No... Please no. "Canine altar server"?  Cry
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,092


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2012, 07:41:56 PM »


Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.

Really? This place isn't far from my folks.  I was interested in visiting an Orthodox Church in the area but only found this "center", and figured I should stay away.  They're probably friends with the Catholic Church down the road famed for the canine altar server.  Now I might have to go recon...

No... Please no. "Canine altar server"?  Cry

Whoa..hey  What??
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2012, 03:06:45 PM »

I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2012, 03:11:10 PM »

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?

Depends on who you ask. I'd say the answer is a definite and strict "sometimes"  angel
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 03:11:22 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2012, 04:20:06 PM »

I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.

Maybe in the lives of the congregation and in their personal theosis. But in their worship? Sorry, but no matter how many nice charismatics I meet all I'll ever see in their worship is a genuine longing for God funneled in a pretty delusional and terribly deficient way.

Quote
Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?

Yes, especially when we're talking about something that goes against the very core of Christian liturgy like the charismatic movement.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,174


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #82 on: January 08, 2012, 04:59:39 PM »

I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.

Maybe in the lives of the congregation and in their personal theosis. But in their worship? Sorry, but no matter how many nice charismatics I meet all I'll ever see in their worship is a genuine longing for God funneled in a pretty delusional and terribly deficient way.

Quote
Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?



Yes, especially when we're talking about something that goes against the very core of Christian liturgy like the charismatic movement.

I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
William
Muted
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,354


« Reply #83 on: January 08, 2012, 05:01:58 PM »

Okay, so is it fine to say that maybe the Spirit is present in Santería chicken sacrifices?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2012, 05:09:54 PM »

I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.

This concept seems to be a recent theological development. I've seen it as early as Khomiakov (19th century), though most probably know it from The Orthodox Church by Met. Kallistos.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,174


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2012, 07:11:20 PM »

Okay, so is it fine to say that maybe the Spirit is present in Santería chicken sacrifices?

Why don't you tell us?  I only stated what I have heard from a number of Orthodox priests.  Period.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,174


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #86 on: January 08, 2012, 07:12:39 PM »

I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.

This concept seems to be a recent theological development. I've seen it as early as Khomiakov (19th century), though most probably know it from The Orthodox Church by Met. Kallistos.

Is it theologically/ecclesiologically correct or incorrect to state that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #87 on: January 08, 2012, 10:17:15 PM »

Okay, so is it fine to say that maybe the Spirit is present in Santería chicken sacrifices?

Quote
72. The Holy Spirit is not absent from any created being, especially not from one which in any way participates in intelligence. For being God and God's Spirit, He embraces in unity the spiritual knowledge of all created things, providentially permeating all things with His power, and vivifying their inner essences in accordance with their nature. In this way He makes men aware of things done sinfully against the law of nature, and renders them capable of choosing principles which are true and in conformity with nature. Thus we find many barbarians and nomadic peoples turning to a civilized way of life and setting aside the savage laws which they had kept among themselves from time immemorial.
73. The Holy Spirit is present unconditionally in all things, in that He embraces all things, provides for all, and vivifies the natural seeds within them. He is present in a specific way in all who are under the Law, in that He shows them where they have broken the commandments and enlightens them about the promise given concerning Christ. In all who are Christians He is present also in another way in that He makes them sons of God. But in none is He fully present as the author of wisdom except in those who have understanding, and who by their holy way of life have made themselves fit to receive His indwelling and deifying presence. For everyone who does not carry out the divine will, even though he is a believer, has a heart which, being a workshop of evil thoughts, lacks understanding, and a body which, being always entangled in the defilements of the passions, is mortgaged to sin.

St. Maximos the Confessor, compiled in the Philokalia Volume II, pages 180-1.

Can you tell me where the Spirit is not?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 10:26:22 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,047


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #88 on: January 08, 2012, 11:43:43 PM »

I engage in chicken sacrifices all the time. They're called sandwiches.  Wink
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #89 on: January 08, 2012, 11:56:38 PM »

St. Maximos the Confessor, compiled in the Philokalia Volume II, pages 180-1.

Can you tell me where the Spirit is not?

Most accept the distinction between 1) the Spirit and sacramental grace, and 2) the Holy Spirit existing everywhere. Obviously the Spirit is everywhere and "fills all things"--the universe would cease to exist if the Spirit didn't sustain it. But whether the Holy Spirit makes Catholic sacraments grace-filled, or Methodist fruit juice, or is in Gnostic crackers, or Wiccan... well, you see where I'm going with this...

EDIT--Though looking back, maybe this isn't relevant to you comment. Sorry about that!  Cheesy Embarrassed angel
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 11:59:11 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2012, 12:20:13 AM »

St. Maximos the Confessor, compiled in the Philokalia Volume II, pages 180-1.

Can you tell me where the Spirit is not?

Most accept the distinction between 1) the Spirit and sacramental grace, and 2) the Holy Spirit existing everywhere. Obviously the Spirit is everywhere and "fills all things"--the universe would cease to exist if the Spirit didn't sustain it. But whether the Holy Spirit makes Catholic sacraments grace-filled, or Methodist fruit juice, or is in Gnostic crackers, or Wiccan... well, you see where I'm going with this...

EDIT--Though looking back, maybe this isn't relevant to you comment. Sorry about that!  Cheesy Embarrassed angel

What is grace but the working of the Holy Spirit in us? If St. Maximos believed that the tendency for barbarians and nomads to settle and become civilized, setting aside their, "savage laws which they had kept among themselves from time immemorial," was the work of the Holy Spirit, is that not the same as saying that they become civilized by grace? I don't think that we can be so quick to put the Holy Spirit in a box, and claim that we are exclusively capable of interacting with it, as if it were some sort of magic, accessible only to the Church. The Holy Spirit is a person (and God for that matter), not a slave of the Church.

Is a Santeria chicken sacrifice sacramental like the Eucharist? Of course not! But if the Holy Spirit can work with barbarians to teach them of law and civilization, cannot the same be done by the Holy Spirit with Santeria believers and God? Of course, we know that we have the truth, and we should always try to bring those who follow false religions to Orthodoxy, but I don't think that we can be so quick to dismiss that God is working in others who truly seek after Him, even if they do not yet know the truth. I could be totally wrong about this, but I just don't think we, as the Church, have the capacity to put God in a box and dictate how He works; He is the one who tells us how we work, not the other way around. Smiley
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 12:25:46 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2012, 12:30:11 AM »

I guess the problem I have is that people like St. Basil and other Church Fathers speak of grace leaving the sacraments of heretics. So while I agree that God wants all to be saved, and works towards that goal through the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure that He works in the same way with everyone.
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2012, 12:50:52 AM »

I guess the problem I have is that people like St. Basil and other Church Fathers speak of grace leaving the sacraments of heretics. So while I agree that God wants all to be saved, and works towards that goal through the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure that He works in the same way with everyone.

I think that's very true, and a very astute observation. That's also something St. Maximos talks about.

Quote
63. Some are reborn through water and the spirit (cf. John 3:5); others receive baptism in the Holy Spirit and in fire (cf. Matt. 3:11). I take these four things – water, spirit, fire and Holy Spirit – to mean one and the same Spirit of God. To some the Holy Spirit is water because He cleanses the external stains of their bodies. To others he is simply spirit because he makes them active in the practice of virtue. To others He is fire because He cleanses the interior defilement which lies deep within their souls. To others, according to Daniel, He is the Holy Spirit because He bestows on them wisdom and spiritual knowledge (cf. Dan. 1:17; 5:11-12). For the single identical Spirit takes His different names from the different ways in which He acts on each person.
From the Philokalia vol. II pg. 152.

The man performing Santeria chicken sacrifices does not experience the same sort of grace that a Christian does, but to say that there is no grace (no personal working of the Holy Spirit within that man) that could turn him to seek God, I think, is beyond our abilities. It is also beyond our abilities to declare that whatever grace is bestowed upon the man performing chicken sacrifices would be sufficient for his salvation (we can only hope that this will be the case with those who live in falsehood and delusion, and we of course, out of love, should hope that this is true for those who died under such conditions), which is why we have an obligation to bring him to the truth of Orthodoxy in his temporal existence, at least in my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 12:53:30 AM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2012, 01:14:35 AM »

Good points, and awesome quote Smiley
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2012, 01:49:35 PM »

I engage in chicken sacrifices all the time. They're called sandwiches.  Wink

My favourite type of sacrificial chicken is either chicken blue ribbon  (cordon bleu) chicken parm or buffalo wings.
Logged

Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2012, 01:54:46 PM »

I engage in chicken sacrifices all the time. They're called sandwiches.  Wink

My favourite type of sacrificial chicken is either chicken blue ribbon  (cordon bleu) chicken parm or buffalo wings.

We can agree that grace exists in those, can't we? Wink
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2012, 01:56:32 PM »

There would be no grace in that guy doing a chicken sacrifice.  I believe in one God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible....
To say that he is praying to "his God" or that God is the same, just worshiped differently denies Christ.  God sent His only Son into the world that He may save sinners, loose the chains of the fettered and open up the gates of Paradise.  It is through Christ that we are brought to eternal life.  
To say that another religion is just worshiping the same God is therefore wrong.  There is one God, it's all in the Nicene Creed.  
Logged

Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,620



« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2012, 02:06:39 PM »

There would be no grace in that guy doing a chicken sacrifice.  I believe in one God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible....
To say that he is praying to "his God" or that God is the same, just worshiped differently denies Christ.  God sent His only Son into the world that He may save sinners, loose the chains of the fettered and open up the gates of Paradise.  It is through Christ that we are brought to eternal life. 
To say that another religion is just worshiping the same God is therefore wrong.  There is one God, it's all in the Nicene Creed. 

I was actually meaning the cordon bleu chicken sandwiches.

But as a serious response, let me ask you something: why do you think people make sacrifices to their gods? Is it not because they yearn for contact with the true God? Which would be the better way to evangelize such people? Do we tell the man that his pagan sacrifice is evil and that his gods are evil delusions, and that he shall be damned to hell for his sincerity, or do we tell him that we know of the fulfillment of his yearning, that we have found the true God whom he seeks, greater than any god he could ever in his mind conceive, and that we too sacrificed lambs in the past until the Lamb of God came down to us in the flesh as the fulfillment of all sacrifices, that we should need not sacrifice with blood but with bread and wine? What gives the man his ability to perceive anything greater than himself at all, if it is not the work of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit works in all men, but they are in need of an opportunity to cultivate themselves that they might, "by their holy way of life [make] themselves fit to receive His indwelling and deifying presence." As the Apostle Paul taught, where sin abounds, grace abounds much more, that we might be turned to repentance by the grace of God. We must see this grace at work in other people, and work with it, that they may be brought to Christ.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 02:37:52 PM by Cavaradossi » Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,174


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2012, 02:44:14 PM »

There would be no grace in that guy doing a chicken sacrifice.  I believe in one God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible....
To say that he is praying to "his God" or that God is the same, just worshiped differently denies Christ.  God sent His only Son into the world that He may save sinners, loose the chains of the fettered and open up the gates of Paradise.  It is through Christ that we are brought to eternal life.  
To say that another religion is just worshiping the same God is therefore wrong.  There is one God, it's all in the Nicene Creed.  

I was actually meaning the cordon bleu chicken sandwiches.

But as a serious response, let me ask you something: why do you think people make sacrifices to their gods? Is it not because they yearn for contact with the true God? Which would be the better way to evangelize such people? Do we tell the man that his pagan sacrifice is evil and that his gods are evil delusions, and that he shall be damned to hell for his sincerity, or do we tell him that we know of the fulfillment of his yearning, that we have found the true God whom he seeks, greater than any god he could ever in his mind conceive, and that we too sacrificed lambs in the past until the Lamb of God came down to us in the flesh as the fulfillment of all sacrifices, that we should need not sacrifice with blood but with bread and wine? What gives the man his ability to perceive anything greater than himself at all, if it is not the work of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit works in all men, but they are in need of an opportunity to cultivate themselves that they might, "by their holy way of life [make] themselves fit to receive His indwelling and deifying presence." As the Apostle Paul taught, where sin abounds, grace abounds much more, that we might be turned to repentance by the grace of God. We must see this grace at work in other people, and work with it, that they may be brought to Christ.

Very nicely put  Wink!

(Now, bring on those cordon bleu chicken sandwiches  Grin Grin!)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 02:46:36 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.327 seconds with 127 queries.