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Author Topic: Imaculate Conception  (Read 18040 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #405 on: December 24, 2011, 02:56:11 PM »

Fr. A, while I do not believe that the essence of the Latin teaching has changed one iota, I do agree that the emphasis has changed.

The emphasis has not changed at all

Oh dear, not a good day!  Let us look at what a theologian of your own Ruthenian Church says on this. 

"Both the East and the West agree that original sin causes an ABSENCE of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Through baptism, the Holy Spirit can again dwell within man.

"It should be noted that the Catholic Church has adopted a much more Eastern understanding in recent years. In fact, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is very Eastern in its approach to original sin."


http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Sin

He's an academic trying to get tenure. 

Stop treating me as though I am a horses rosette.

At least give me credit for the nose...
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anthony022071
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« Reply #406 on: December 28, 2011, 01:26:00 PM »


Anthony:
The IC does bear upon Christ's perfect human nature,because he inherited it from Mary.

Quote
No, it was perfected in His, the sole Immaculate, conception.  Were it otherwise, He would be consubstantial with His mother alone, not with us.

That doesn't follow. His human nature would not be separate from ours for being inherited from immaculate Mary. He didn't need to share in our corruption in order to share in our human nature. Human nature is not identical to its corruption. Why would you think that he would not be consubstantial with us if Mary were immaculately conceived?

Quote
If you get your human nature from Adam, it is a fallen nature.

Quote
You wouldn't say that about Christ,so why would you say it about the person from whom he directly received human nature?

Quote
Because I haven't fallen for the folly of the semi-incarnation of the Immaculata.  I'm sticking to the Gospel the Apostles preached, not the one Maximillian Kolbe claimed to receive from Bernadette.

What does the IC have to do with semi-incarnation? The Church does not teach that Mary is God incarnate.

Quote
Do you think that God gave him a human nature that was not that of the rest of mankind? Christ did inherit his human nature from Adam,but not the privation of grace and the corruption.

Quote
Because He inherited that from His Father.

Now that's a new teaching. So he inherited a human nature from his Father,who is not human? If his human nature was inherited or created from nothing by the Father,then he really would be separate from the human race.

Quote
St. John of Damascus [Homily on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary]:
Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!

Quote
You are aware that he is speaking of St. Anne's barrenness, no?

He also mentioned "a germ which is all-immaculate".


« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 01:27:15 PM by anthony022071 » Logged
anthony022071
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« Reply #407 on: December 28, 2011, 02:00:16 PM »



Anthony: Mary did not receive ancestral sin.

Quote
Would you take a moment to define what you mean by "ancestral sin".
[/quote]

Quote
The inheritance of Adam's sin.

Quote
The trouble is that that brief answer tells us almost nothing...

It is the best and simplest answer. What else did you think the answer would be? We could get into the nature and effects of ancestral sin is,but you just asked for a definition for it.

Quote
"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv
[/quote]

Francis Fiorenza is a feminist theologian. She is not orthodox. You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines.  Theological opinions must be compatible with the doctrines taught by the magisterium. There is no radical transition and little plurality of opinion with the teachings of the magisterium.
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primuspilus
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« Reply #408 on: December 28, 2011, 02:13:26 PM »

Quote
You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines
I've been hearing this excuse more and more lately.......sounds like a big problem.

PP
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #409 on: December 28, 2011, 02:30:52 PM »

Quote
You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines
I've been hearing this excuse more and more lately.......sounds like a big problem.

PP

It's really only a problem for those inside the Church and outside who believe that professional theologians make up Catholic doctrine in order to get tenure.... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

For the rest who actually know what is what...These dissenters are no more than gnats on a windshield... Wink
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primuspilus
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Inserting personal quote here.


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« Reply #410 on: December 28, 2011, 02:34:53 PM »

Quote
You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines
I've been hearing this excuse more and more lately.......sounds like a big problem.

PP

It's really only a problem for those inside the Church and outside who believe that professional theologians make up Catholic doctrine in order to get tenure.... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

For the rest who actually know what is what...These dissenters are no more than gnats on a windshield... Wink
Get enough gnats and you cant see a darn thing out of that windshield.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #411 on: December 28, 2011, 02:38:18 PM »

Quote
You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines
I've been hearing this excuse more and more lately.......sounds like a big problem.

PP

It's really only a problem for those inside the Church and outside who believe that professional theologians make up Catholic doctrine in order to get tenure.... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

For the rest who actually know what is what...These dissenters are no more than gnats on a windshield... Wink
Get enough gnats and you cant see a darn thing out of that windshield.


Fortunately most of them are proponents of reproductive rights!  No chance of there being too many.

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ialmisry
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« Reply #412 on: December 28, 2011, 03:38:03 PM »

Quote
You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines
I've been hearing this excuse more and more lately.......sounds like a big problem.

PP
It's really only a problem for those inside the Church and outside who believe that professional theologians make up Catholic doctrine in order to get tenure.... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

For the rest who actually know what is what...These dissenters are no more than gnats on a windshield... Wink
Get enough gnats and you cant see a darn thing out of that windshield.
Fortunately most of them are proponents of reproductive rights!  No chance of there being too many.
They may have only 2.2 kids, but that is more than your mandated celibates have (or should have).  Could be why your wideshield is filling up.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #413 on: December 28, 2011, 03:43:16 PM »

Quote
You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines
I've been hearing this excuse more and more lately.......sounds like a big problem.

PP
It's really only a problem for those inside the Church and outside who believe that professional theologians make up Catholic doctrine in order to get tenure.... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

For the rest who actually know what is what...These dissenters are no more than gnats on a windshield... Wink
Get enough gnats and you cant see a darn thing out of that windshield.
Fortunately most of them are proponents of reproductive rights!  No chance of there being too many.
They may have only 2.2 kids, but that is more than your mandated celibates have (or should have).  Could be why your wideshield is filling up.

Absolutely gratuitous exercise of sheer mean-spirited venom.

Always anticipated...always stunning in any event.

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ialmisry
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« Reply #414 on: December 28, 2011, 04:05:49 PM »


Anthony:
The IC does bear upon Christ's perfect human nature,because he inherited it from Mary.

Quote
No, it was perfected in His, the sole Immaculate, conception.  Were it otherwise, He would be consubstantial with His mother alone, not with us.

That doesn't follow. His human nature would not be separate from ours for being inherited from immaculate Mary. He didn't need to share in our corruption in order to share in our human nature. Human nature is not identical to its corruption. Why would you think that he would not be consubstantial with us if Mary were immaculately conceived?
Because it states the direct intervention of God isolating her from humanity.


If you get your human nature from Adam, it is a fallen nature.
You wouldn't say that about Christ,so why would you say it about the person from whom he directly received human nature?
Because I haven't fallen for the folly of the semi-incarnation of the Immaculata.  I'm sticking to the Gospel the Apostles preached, not the one Maximillian Kolbe claimed to receive from Bernadette.
What does the IC have to do with semi-incarnation? The Church does not teach that Mary is God incarnate.
And then, what about the interpretation of those canonized by the Vatican, and those who teach with its authority?


I am afraid this is NOT an inaccurate understanding of the immaculate Comecption:
Quote
The Immaculate Conception and the Co-redemptrix       
Written by Mark Miravalle     
December 01 2007 
Page 1 of 6
On February 17, 1941, the "Property" of the Immaculata, Fr. Maximilian Kolbe, was arrested by the Nazi Gestapo, eventually leading to his martyrdom in Auschwitz. During the few hours before his arrest, Fr. Maximilian was inspired to write the heart of his unparalleled mariological ponderings regarding the "Immaculate Conception."

The following are excerpts from this last written testimony:

IMMACULATE CONCEPTION: These words fell from the lips of the Immaculata herself. Hence, they must tell us in the most precise and essential manner who she really is.

Since human words are incapable of expressing divine realities, it follows that these words: "Immaculate," and "Conception" must be understood in a much more beautiful and sublime meaning than usual: a meaning beyond that which human reason at its most penetrating, commonly gives to them . . . Who then are you, O Immaculate Conception?

Not God, of course, because he has no beginning. Not an angel, created directly out of nothing. Not Adam, formed out of the dust of the earth (Gen. 2:7). Not Eve, molded from Adam's rib (Gen. 2:21). Not the Incarnate Word, who exists before all ages, and of whom we should use the word "conceived" rather than "conception." Humans do not exist before their conception, so we might call them created "conception." But you, O Mary, are different from all other children of Eve. They are conceptions stained by original sin; whereas you are the unique Immaculate Conception.

. . . Creatures, by following the natural law implanted in them by God, reach their perfection, become like him, and go back to him. Intelligent creatures love him in a conscious manner; through this love they unite themselves more and more closely with him, and so find their way back to him. The creature most completely filled with this love, with God himself, was the Immaculata, who never contracted the slightest stain of sin, who never departed in the least from God's will. United to the Holy Spirit as his spouse, she is one with God in an incomparably more perfect way than can be predicated of any other creature.

What sort of union is this? It is above all an interior union, a union of her essence with the "essence" of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells in her, lives in her. This was true from the first instance of her existence. It is always true; it will always be true.

In what does this life of the Spirit in Mary consist? He himself is uncreated Love in her; the Love of the Father and of the Son, the Love by which God loves himself, the very love of the Most Holy Trinity. He is a fruitful Love, a "Conception." Among creatures made in God's image the union brought about by married love is the most intimate of all (cf. Mt. 19:6). In a much more precise, more interior, more essential manner, the Holy Spirit lives in the soul of the Immaculata, in the depths of her very being. He makes her fruitful, from the very instance of her existence, all during her life, and for all eternity.

This eternal "Immaculate Conception" (which is the Holy Spirit) produces in an immaculate manner divine life itself in the womb (or depths) of Mary's soul, making her the Immaculate Conception, the human Immaculate Conception. And the virginal womb of Mary's body is kept sacred for him; there he conceives in time—because everything that is material occurs in time—the human life of the Man-God. (1)

In a 1933 Letter from Nagasaki, St. Maximilian explains further that in the name, "Immaculate Conception," the Mother also gives us the secret of her very nature:

In her apparition at Lourdes she does not say: "I was conceived immaculately," but "I am the Immaculate Conception." This points out not only the fact that she was conceived without original sin, but also the manner in which this privilege belongs to her. It is not something accidental; it is something that belongs to her very nature. For she is Immaculate Conception in (her very) person. (2)

The uncreated Immaculate Conception and the created Immaculate Conception. The Divine Spirit and the human spouse perfected in His grace are united by an interior, essential union. Uncreated love conceives and dwells within the depths of her soul, and she becomes His quasi-incarnation. (3) For this reason, as St. Maximilian tells us, Mary is also the Mediatrix of all graces and gifts of the Spirit:

The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is Mediatrix of all grace given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose. (4)

Does St. Maximilian go too far in speaking in this manner of the wonders of the Immaculate Conception? Or does he say too little? The Mariology disclosed by the saint of the Immaculata, generous and profound as it is, in no way exhausts the mystery of the Immaculate Conception. His unrivaled pneumatological discoveries prepare the way for a new comprehension of the inseparability of the Uncreated Immaculate Conception with the created Immaculate Conception. But the mystery continues. The brilliance of St. Maximilian's methodology in his return to Trinitarian Mariology specific to the Holy Spirit also propels us to ponder more deeply the other relationships of the Immaculata with her Triune God.

Perhaps least developed of these, from a Trinitarian perspective, is the relationship between the Immaculate Conception and the Heavenly Father. The Father-daughter relationship is one of the most precious of human relationships, and no other relationship captures more the love of the Creator for creation, and the appropriate reciprocal love of creation for the Creator than the relationship between the Eternal Father and Mary Immaculate. At the heart of this union of Perfect Daughter to Perfect Father, which represents and exemplifies how every creature should be united to its Creator, is the stainlessness and fullness of grace possessed by the Immaculate Daughter. This "stainless-fullness" is given to her by the Eternal Father through the Spirit and in view of the foreseen merits of the Son, which is the foundation of her perfect response of fiat-love to everything given to her and asked of her by her "Abba," God the Father of all mankind.

As the example of St. Maximilian makes clear, the dogmatic proclamation of the Immaculate Conception in 1854 does not end its doctrinal development, but rather encourages more unveiling and more appreciation of its sacred mystery. Certainly Contemporary Mariology would do well to follow the example of St. Maximilian in striving to incorporate a more Trinitarian perspective and methodology in relation to the Blessed Virgin if we seek to be true to the full glory of Mary Immaculate.
...
http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/articles/general-mariology/the-immaculate-conception-and-the-co-redemptrix.html

Care to admit or deny Kolbe and Miravalle?


Quote
I'm sure you would not want me to critique an EO doctrine based on my own NON-EO point of view, but rather on what the EOC herself teaches, correct?

Claiming that the East taught the IC, you already critique EO dogma based on your Latin view on what Orthodoxy, EO and OO, herself teaches.
Like the rest of the IC, just give it time....

Do you think that God gave him a human nature that was not that of the rest of mankind? Christ did inherit his human nature from Adam,but not the privation of grace and the corruption.
Because He inherited that from His Father.
Now that's a new teaching.

No, just the Gospel Truth preached by Christ and His Apostles.
So he inherited a human nature from his Father,who is not human?

No, He received His divine nature from His Father, Who is divine.  He didn't lose it in the incarnation, which is how/why He is immaculately conceived without being seperated from humanity, and how/why His mother is not.

If his human nature was inherited or created from nothing by the Father,then he really would be separate from the human race.
If His human nature was inherited from a human seperated from the rest of humanity by the Father, which is what the IC teaches, then He really would be seperate from the human race.

Quote
St. John of Damascus [Homily on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary]:
Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!
You are aware that he is speaking of St. Anne's barrenness, no?
He also mentioned "a germ which is all-immaculate".
Yes, the immaculate semen that Fr. Ambrose refered to.  Since St. John didn't believe, nor taught, the IC, I need not read the IC into it.

Btw, on the misuse of St. John:
Quote
St. John Damascene at various places in his writings shows a clear belief in Our Lady's Immaculate Conception. He explains in a sermon on Mary's nativity why she was born of a sterile mother. "Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace, but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit." In the homilies on the Assumption, St. John explains: that, although not subject to death, died nonetheless. Death, of course, is the penalty for sin, and only one preserved even from Original Sin would be exempt.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary19-2.htm
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ialmisry
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« Reply #415 on: December 28, 2011, 04:31:32 PM »

Quote
You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines
I've been hearing this excuse more and more lately.......sounds like a big problem.

PP
It's really only a problem for those inside the Church and outside who believe that professional theologians make up Catholic doctrine in order to get tenure.... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

For the rest who actually know what is what...These dissenters are no more than gnats on a windshield... Wink
Get enough gnats and you cant see a darn thing out of that windshield.
Fortunately most of them are proponents of reproductive rights!  No chance of there being too many.
They may have only 2.2 kids, but that is more than your mandated celibates have (or should have).  Could be why your wideshield is filling up.

Absolutely gratuitous exercise of sheer mean-spirited venom.
Yes, that is always how I find facile dismissals of opposing views as "dissident."
Always anticipated...always stunning in any event.
au contraire: this "dissident" naming calling has become quite banal.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
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« Reply #416 on: December 28, 2011, 04:39:09 PM »



Yes, the immaculate semen that Fr. Ambrose refered to.  Since St. John didn't believe, nor taught, the IC, I need not read the IC into it.


 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You would believe in immaculate sperm.  Fits the profile....
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« Reply #417 on: December 28, 2011, 05:42:39 PM »


"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv

Francis Fiorenza is a feminist theologian. She is not orthodox. You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines.  Theological opinions must be compatible with the doctrines taught by the magisterium. There is no radical transition and little plurality of opinion with the teachings of the magisterium.


Thou knowest not of what thou speakest...... Even a brief perusal of this topic on CAF reveals the sometimes angry struggle between older Catholics and the younger generation.  The doctrine/emphases of the older Catholics is unknown to younger Catholics and causes them not a little consternation and even anger when older Catholics dare to mention it.

One only has to read pre-Vatican II materials to see that Francis Fiorenza is speaking truthfully-


This is The Faith
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
Everyman's Theology
Baltimore Catechism

Also please see message 1044
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« Reply #418 on: December 28, 2011, 05:48:18 PM »


"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv

Francis Fiorenza is a feminist theologian. She is not orthodox. You should understand that many modern theologians associated with the Catholic Church are liberals and modernists who seek to undermine Catholic doctrines and replace them with false doctrines.  Theological opinions must be compatible with the doctrines taught by the magisterium. There is no radical transition and little plurality of opinion with the teachings of the magisterium.


Thou knowest not of what thou speakest...... Even a brief perusal of this topic on CAF reveals the sometimes angry struggle between older Catholics and the younger generation.  The doctrine/emphases of the older Catholics is unknown to younger Catholics and causes them not a little consternation and even anger when older Catholics dare to mention it.

One only has to read pre-Vatican II materials to see that Francis Fiorenza is speaking truthfully-


This is The Faith
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
Everyman's Theology
Baltimore Catechism

Also please see message 1044
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg421044.html#msg421044


Again you champion a dissident of the Catholic Church in order to make your perennial point that does not comport with those faithful saints and doctors of the Church who write of things that you claim are modern.

It is a flawed argument you offer...is now and from ages to ages.
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« Reply #419 on: December 28, 2011, 05:49:24 PM »



Yes, the immaculate semen that Fr. Ambrose refered to.  Since St. John didn't believe, nor taught, the IC, I need not read the IC into it.


 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You would believe in immaculate sperm.  Fits the profile....

Salacious girl!

I guess it does.  It was taught by the the Doctor of the Church who is my heavenly protector, Saint Ambrose of Milan.

BTW, I have not used the term "sperm" and instead I have written of "semen."

I see that someone in this thread is pushing a concept of "immaculate germs."    Not sure what that means!  Does germ mean sperm or is germ a rather awful way of referring to the Mother of God?    What do you know of "immaculate germs"?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 05:53:05 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #420 on: December 28, 2011, 05:51:47 PM »



Yes, the immaculate semen that Fr. Ambrose refered to.  Since St. John didn't believe, nor taught, the IC, I need not read the IC into it.


 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You would believe in immaculate sperm.  Fits the profile....

Salacious girl!

I guess it does.  It was taught by the the Doctor of the Church who is my heavenly protector, Saint Ambrose of Milan.

BTW, I have not used the term "sperm" and instead I have written of "semen."

I see that someone in this thread is pushing a concept of "immaculate germs".    Not sure what that means!  Does germ mean sperm or is germ a rather awful way of referring to the Mother of God?    What do you know of "immaculate germs"?

In those days, germ would have been that thingie that Orthonorm says is nothing but a blob of tissue...not a person.

The immaculate germ would have been the most pure most blessed Mother of our God at the moment of her becoming a person/conception.

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« Reply #421 on: December 28, 2011, 06:04:33 PM »


In those days, germ would have been that thingie that Orthonorm says is nothing but a blob of tissue...not a person.


Probably been misled by the centuries long and erroneous teachings of the Orthodox Popes of Rome and Western theologians about the nature of a foetus prior to its animation (implanting of a human soul), first vegetative, then animal, then human.  Prior to its animation, while the foetus was in its vegetative and animal state, Rome did not see aborting it as a major sin.

The East knew of these peculiar teachings of the Western brethren and rejected them (cf. Saint Basil the Great.)
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« Reply #422 on: December 28, 2011, 06:35:02 PM »


In those days, germ would have been that thingie that Orthonorm says is nothing but a blob of tissue...not a person.


Probably been misled by the centuries long and erroneous teachings of the Orthodox Popes of Rome and Western theologians about the nature of a foetus prior to its animation (implanting of a human soul), first vegetative, then animal, then human.  Prior to its animation, while the foetus was in its vegetative and animal state, Rome did not see aborting it as a major sin.

The East knew of these peculiar teachings of the Western brethren and rejected them (cf. Saint Basil the Great.)

Grace and Peace Father,

How does the Orthodox Church teach Ancestral Sin? How is it transfered Father?
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« Reply #423 on: December 28, 2011, 07:18:40 PM »


In those days, germ would have been that thingie that Orthonorm says is nothing but a blob of tissue...not a person.


Probably been misled by the centuries long and erroneous teachings of the Orthodox Popes of Rome and Western theologians about the nature of a foetus prior to its animation (implanting of a human soul), first vegetative, then animal, then human.  Prior to its animation, while the foetus was in its vegetative and animal state, Rome did not see aborting it as a major sin.

The East knew of these peculiar teachings of the Western brethren and rejected them (cf. Saint Basil the Great.)

Grace and Peace Father,

How does the Orthodox Church teach Ancestral Sin? How is it transfered Father?

Met Kallistos Ware


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/__P13.HTM

The Fall: Original Sin.     God gave Adam free will — the power to choose between good

and evil — and it therefore rested With Adam either to accept the vocation set before him or to

refuse it. He refused it. Instead of continuing along the path marked out for him by God, he

turned aside and disobeyed God. Adam’s fall consisted essentially in his disobedience of the will

of God; he set up his own will against the divine will, and so by his own act he separated himself

from God. As a result, a new form of existence appeared on earth — that of disease and death.

By turning away from God, who is immortality and life, man put himself in a state that was contrary

to nature, and this unnatural condition led to an inevitable disintegration of his being and

eventually to physical death. The consequences of Adam’s disobedience extended to all his descendants.

We are members one of another, as Saint Paul never ceased to insist, and if one member

suffers the whole body suffers. In virtue of this mysterious unity of the human race, not only

Adam but all mankind became subject to mortality. Nor was the disintegration which followed

from the fall merely physical. Cut off from God, Adam and his descendants passed under the

domination of sin and of the devil. Each new human being is born into a world where sin prevails

everywhere, a world in which it is easy to do evil and hard to do good. Man’s will is weakened

and enfeebled by what the Greeks call ‘desire’ and the Latins ‘concupiscence.’ We are all

subject to these, the spiritual effects of original sin.

Thus far there is fairly close agreement between Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and classic

Protestantism; but beyond this point east and west do not entirely concur. Orthodoxy, holding

as it does a less exalted idea of man’s state before he fell, is also less severe than the west in its

view of the consequences of the fall. Adam fell, not from a great height of knowledge and perfection,

but from a state of undeveloped simplicity; hence he is not to be judged too harshly for

his error. Certainly, as a result of the fall man’s mind became so darkened, and his will-power

was so impaired, that he could no longer hope to attain to the likeness of God. Orthodox, however,

do not hold that the fall deprived man entirely of God’s grace, though they would say that

after the fall grace acts on man from the outside, not from within.
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« Reply #424 on: December 28, 2011, 10:25:10 PM »


In those days, germ would have been that thingie that Orthonorm says is nothing but a blob of tissue...not a person.


Probably been misled by the centuries long and erroneous teachings of the Orthodox Popes of Rome and Western theologians about the nature of a foetus prior to its animation (implanting of a human soul), first vegetative, then animal, then human.  Prior to its animation, while the foetus was in its vegetative and animal state, Rome did not see aborting it as a major sin.

The East knew of these peculiar teachings of the Western brethren and rejected them (cf. Saint Basil the Great.)

Grace and Peace Father,

How does the Orthodox Church teach Ancestral Sin? How is it transfered Father?

Met Kallistos Ware


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/__P13.HTM

The Fall: Original Sin.     God gave Adam free will — the power to choose between good

and evil — and it therefore rested With Adam either to accept the vocation set before him or to

refuse it. He refused it. Instead of continuing along the path marked out for him by God, he

turned aside and disobeyed God. Adam’s fall consisted essentially in his disobedience of the will

of God; he set up his own will against the divine will, and so by his own act he separated himself

from God. As a result, a new form of existence appeared on earth — that of disease and death.

By turning away from God, who is immortality and life, man put himself in a state that was contrary

to nature, and this unnatural condition led to an inevitable disintegration of his being and

eventually to physical death. The consequences of Adam’s disobedience extended to all his descendants.

We are members one of another, as Saint Paul never ceased to insist, and if one member

suffers the whole body suffers. In virtue of this mysterious unity of the human race, not only

Adam but all mankind became subject to mortality. Nor was the disintegration which followed

from the fall merely physical. Cut off from God, Adam and his descendants passed under the

domination of sin and of the devil. Each new human being is born into a world where sin prevails

everywhere, a world in which it is easy to do evil and hard to do good. Man’s will is weakened

and enfeebled by what the Greeks call ‘desire’ and the Latins ‘concupiscence.’ We are all

subject to these, the spiritual effects of original sin.

Thus far there is fairly close agreement between Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and classic

Protestantism; but beyond this point east and west do not entirely concur. Orthodoxy, holding

as it does a less exalted idea of man’s state before he fell, is also less severe than the west in its

view of the consequences of the fall. Adam fell, not from a great height of knowledge and perfection,

but from a state of undeveloped simplicity; hence he is not to be judged too harshly for

his error. Certainly, as a result of the fall man’s mind became so darkened, and his will-power

was so impaired, that he could no longer hope to attain to the likeness of God. Orthodox, however,

do not hold that the fall deprived man entirely of God’s grace, though they would say that

after the fall grace acts on man from the outside, not from within.


Grace and Peace Father,

Thank you for this post, it was very nourishing.

Tell me Father, if Ancestral Sin is both within man and without... how is it that the Virgin Mary remained sinless? How was she greeted by the Angel Gabriel as "Full of Grace..." How was she able to do this Father when no one else was capable?
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« Reply #425 on: December 28, 2011, 10:50:45 PM »



Yes, the immaculate semen that Fr. Ambrose refered to.  Since St. John didn't believe, nor taught, the IC, I need not read the IC into it.


 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You would believe in immaculate sperm.  Fits the profile....
It's your dogma that you are defending.  Not mine.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #426 on: December 28, 2011, 10:56:53 PM »


If Purgatory supposedly exists to "cleanse" one's soul, how would "satisfactory works" accomplish this?  This citation only makes sense if seen in the legalistic sense of paying for one's sins, i.e. punishment.  It's a transaction with God.  I can see where the indulgences fit in with this mindset. 

Satisfactory works in the Catholic Church is a reference to prayer, sacrifice and alms giving...to drive away the demon passions and thereby open the soul more and more hopefully to the cleansing powers of divine grace.

Indulgences come out of those actions of prayer, alms giving and sacrifice...in so far as...They come from a real desire to take on Christ.  Merits only come from the merits of Christ but in so far as we have a share in the divine life [theosis/divinization], we then have a share in the merits of Christ for which we can petition in the service of all souls, or souls known to us.

The reference is to the ascetic work of the papal Church and the merits of Jesus Christ....
you're leaving out that super "treasury of the merits of the saints" (all references to which, btw, are removed in the WRO), to which your supreme pontiff supposedly has the key.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #427 on: December 28, 2011, 11:02:10 PM »



Yes, the immaculate semen that Fr. Ambrose refered to.  Since St. John didn't believe, nor taught, the IC, I need not read the IC into it.


 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You would believe in immaculate sperm.  Fits the profile....

Salacious girl!

I guess it does.  It was taught by the the Doctor of the Church who is my heavenly protector, Saint Ambrose of Milan.

BTW, I have not used the term "sperm" and instead I have written of "semen."

I see that someone in this thread is pushing a concept of "immaculate germs".    Not sure what that means!  Does germ mean sperm or is germ a rather awful way of referring to the Mother of God?    What do you know of "immaculate germs"?

In those days, germ would have been that thingie that Orthonorm says is nothing but a blob of tissue...not a person.

The immaculate germ would have been the most pure most blessed Mother of our God at the moment of her becoming a person/conception.


Not in St. Joachim's loins she wouldn't.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #428 on: December 28, 2011, 11:12:53 PM »


If Purgatory supposedly exists to "cleanse" one's soul, how would "satisfactory works" accomplish this?  This citation only makes sense if seen in the legalistic sense of paying for one's sins, i.e. punishment.  It's a transaction with God.  I can see where the indulgences fit in with this mindset. 

Satisfactory works in the Catholic Church is a reference to prayer, sacrifice and alms giving...to drive away the demon passions and thereby open the soul more and more hopefully to the cleansing powers of divine grace.

Indulgences come out of those actions of prayer, alms giving and sacrifice...in so far as...They come from a real desire to take on Christ.  Merits only come from the merits of Christ but in so far as we have a share in the divine life [theosis/divinization], we then have a share in the merits of Christ for which we can petition in the service of all souls, or souls known to us.

The reference is to the ascetic work of the papal Church and the merits of Jesus Christ....
you're leaving out that super "treasury of the merits of the saints" (all references to which, btw, are removed in the WRO), to which your supreme pontiff supposedly has the key.

Oh!!  Here let me show you where they are:

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

Quote
Hence, as it was through the Theotokos alone that the Lord came to us, appeared upon earth and lived among men, being invisible to all before this time, so likewise in the endless age to come, without her mediation, every emanation of illuminating divine light, every revelation of the mysteries of the Godhead, every form of spiritual gift, will exceed the capacity of every created being.

She alone has received the all-pervading fulness of Him that filleth all things, and through her all may now contain it, for she dispenses it according to the power of each, in proportion and to the degree of the purity of each. Hence she is the treasury and overseer of the riches of the Godhead.
I was not aware that St. Gregory was WRO.  You learn something new every day.

As to his rhetorical florishes here, there is nothing more to be said here that hasn't been said in references to his rhetoric of the immaculate germ being passed down through the generations (sort of like what the Muslims claim for Muhammad.  I wonder if there is a connection).
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #429 on: December 28, 2011, 11:16:43 PM »


If Purgatory supposedly exists to "cleanse" one's soul, how would "satisfactory works" accomplish this?  This citation only makes sense if seen in the legalistic sense of paying for one's sins, i.e. punishment.  It's a transaction with God.  I can see where the indulgences fit in with this mindset. 

Satisfactory works in the Catholic Church is a reference to prayer, sacrifice and alms giving...to drive away the demon passions and thereby open the soul more and more hopefully to the cleansing powers of divine grace.

Indulgences come out of those actions of prayer, alms giving and sacrifice...in so far as...They come from a real desire to take on Christ.  Merits only come from the merits of Christ but in so far as we have a share in the divine life [theosis/divinization], we then have a share in the merits of Christ for which we can petition in the service of all souls, or souls known to us.

The reference is to the ascetic work of the papal Church and the merits of Jesus Christ....
you're leaving out that super "treasury of the merits of the saints" (all references to which, btw, are removed in the WRO), to which your supreme pontiff supposedly has the key.

Oh!!  Here let me show you where they are:

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

Quote
Hence, as it was through the Theotokos alone that the Lord came to us, appeared upon earth and lived among men, being invisible to all before this time, so likewise in the endless age to come, without her mediation, every emanation of illuminating divine light, every revelation of the mysteries of the Godhead, every form of spiritual gift, will exceed the capacity of every created being.

She alone has received the all-pervading fulness of Him that filleth all things, and through her all may now contain it, for she dispenses it according to the power of each, in proportion and to the degree of the purity of each. Hence she is the treasury and overseer of the riches of the Godhead.

Grace and Peace elijahmaria,

That is a beautiful quote... tell me, why can't the Churches teaching remain there? Why must Catholics press the issue against their Eastern Brothers and Sisters to force the Doctrine of IC on them... it's that uncharitable? Are Catholics doing what St. Paul spoke not to be a stumbling block? Why did Catholics race ahead of the Eastern Church to define these teachings in such forensic terms that our Eastern Brothers and Sisters are not willing to agree? I guess I just don't know why the Roman Church had to push this and other teachings so far... as to create greater division within the Body of Christ?
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« Reply #430 on: December 28, 2011, 11:23:03 PM »


If Purgatory supposedly exists to "cleanse" one's soul, how would "satisfactory works" accomplish this?  This citation only makes sense if seen in the legalistic sense of paying for one's sins, i.e. punishment.  It's a transaction with God.  I can see where the indulgences fit in with this mindset. 

Satisfactory works in the Catholic Church is a reference to prayer, sacrifice and alms giving...to drive away the demon passions and thereby open the soul more and more hopefully to the cleansing powers of divine grace.

Indulgences come out of those actions of prayer, alms giving and sacrifice...in so far as...They come from a real desire to take on Christ.  Merits only come from the merits of Christ but in so far as we have a share in the divine life [theosis/divinization], we then have a share in the merits of Christ for which we can petition in the service of all souls, or souls known to us.

The reference is to the ascetic work of the papal Church and the merits of Jesus Christ....
you're leaving out that super "treasury of the merits of the saints" (all references to which, btw, are removed in the WRO), to which your supreme pontiff supposedly has the key.

Oh!!  Here let me show you where they are:

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

Quote
Hence, as it was through the Theotokos alone that the Lord came to us, appeared upon earth and lived among men, being invisible to all before this time, so likewise in the endless age to come, without her mediation, every emanation of illuminating divine light, every revelation of the mysteries of the Godhead, every form of spiritual gift, will exceed the capacity of every created being.

She alone has received the all-pervading fulness of Him that filleth all things, and through her all may now contain it, for she dispenses it according to the power of each, in proportion and to the degree of the purity of each. Hence she is the treasury and overseer of the riches of the Godhead.

Grace and Peace elijahmaria,

That is a beautiful quote... tell me, why can't the Churches teaching remain there? Why must Catholics press the issue against their Eastern Brothers and Sisters to force the Doctrine of IC on them... it's that uncharitable? Are Catholics doing what St. Paul spoke not to be a stumbling block? Why did Catholics race ahead of the Eastern Church to define these teachings in such forensic terms that our Eastern Brothers and Sisters are not willing to agree? I guess I just don't know why the Roman Church had to push this and other teachings so far... as to create greater division within the Body of Christ?

There has been no conscience racing ahead.  At each turn the eastern Churches have been invited to participate.  Read some of the participation of the east.  Sounds much like Al Misry or Father Ambrose and worse. 

So there's been no real effort on the part of the east to even make an effort at healing the breach.

Look how Al Misry treats the homily...when it is something he doesn't like.

Truth doesn't matter.  Most of what ails is a matter of authority and whether or not one has to yield to it or can maintain their own little interior doctrinal list of what's in and what's out.  It happens inside our respective Churches, as well as between.  Catholics are no better.

I think you will make a fine student of Orthodoxy!...by the way... Smiley
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« Reply #431 on: December 28, 2011, 11:27:38 PM »


If Purgatory supposedly exists to "cleanse" one's soul, how would "satisfactory works" accomplish this?  This citation only makes sense if seen in the legalistic sense of paying for one's sins, i.e. punishment.  It's a transaction with God.  I can see where the indulgences fit in with this mindset. 

Satisfactory works in the Catholic Church is a reference to prayer, sacrifice and alms giving...to drive away the demon passions and thereby open the soul more and more hopefully to the cleansing powers of divine grace.

Indulgences come out of those actions of prayer, alms giving and sacrifice...in so far as...They come from a real desire to take on Christ.  Merits only come from the merits of Christ but in so far as we have a share in the divine life [theosis/divinization], we then have a share in the merits of Christ for which we can petition in the service of all souls, or souls known to us.

The reference is to the ascetic work of the papal Church and the merits of Jesus Christ....
you're leaving out that super "treasury of the merits of the saints" (all references to which, btw, are removed in the WRO), to which your supreme pontiff supposedly has the key.

Oh!!  Here let me show you where they are:

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

Quote
Hence, as it was through the Theotokos alone that the Lord came to us, appeared upon earth and lived among men, being invisible to all before this time, so likewise in the endless age to come, without her mediation, every emanation of illuminating divine light, every revelation of the mysteries of the Godhead, every form of spiritual gift, will exceed the capacity of every created being.

She alone has received the all-pervading fulness of Him that filleth all things, and through her all may now contain it, for she dispenses it according to the power of each, in proportion and to the degree of the purity of each. Hence she is the treasury and overseer of the riches of the Godhead.

Grace and Peace elijahmaria,

That is a beautiful quote... tell me, why can't the Churches teaching remain there? Why must Catholics press the issue against their Eastern Brothers and Sisters to force the Doctrine of IC on them... it's that uncharitable? Are Catholics doing what St. Paul spoke not to be a stumbling block? Why did Catholics race ahead of the Eastern Church to define these teachings in such forensic terms that our Eastern Brothers and Sisters are not willing to agree? I guess I just don't know why the Roman Church had to push this and other teachings so far... as to create greater division within the Body of Christ?

Also on a bit more gentle note: I think I have said before that I am firmly convinced that should communion resume tomorrow, there would be no forcing the teaching of the Immaculate Conception on to Orthodoxy.  Some would pick it up as a private belief and others would reject it violently.  But the only thing that would be expected would be that the Orthodox who reject violently do so privately and quietly... Smiley  There would be no charge liturgically to change the tradition of the Feast of St. Anne.

That's not coming from me but I have to be careful and protect those who talk to me...

Al Misry will have a field day with that... Wink
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« Reply #432 on: December 28, 2011, 11:53:15 PM »


Oh!!  Here let me show you where they are:

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/dormition.html

Quote
Hence, as it was through the Theotokos alone that the Lord came to us, appeared upon earth and lived among men, being invisible to all before this time, so likewise in the endless age to come, without her mediation, every emanation of illuminating divine light, every revelation of the mysteries of the Godhead, every form of spiritual gift, will exceed the capacity of every created being.

She alone has received the all-pervading fulness of Him that filleth all things, and through her all may now contain it, for she dispenses it according to the power of each, in proportion and to the degree of the purity of each. Hence she is the treasury and overseer of the riches of the Godhead.

You know as well as I do that the beautiful and effusive praises which Saint Gregory Palamas heaps on the Mother of God are NOT church doctrine.    Is it in the same sermon that he expounds his opinion that God increasingly purified each generation of Her ancestors so that in the end Saint Joachim was able through his pure semen to create an immaculate child.  This too has never been accepted by the Church and finds no echo at all in the Church Fathers (with one exception, Saint Ambrose of Milan.)

With regard to the claims being made about the Holy Fathers, whether it concerns the IC or the MG (Mediator of all Grace)....  I see that the Catholic Encyclopaedia takes a sensible and restrained approach...

"From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin
in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those
of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these
and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and
interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally
or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
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« Reply #433 on: December 29, 2011, 12:27:56 AM »


In those days, germ would have been that thingie that Orthonorm says is nothing but a blob of tissue...not a person.


Probably been misled by the centuries long and erroneous teachings of the Orthodox Popes of Rome and Western theologians about the nature of a foetus prior to its animation (implanting of a human soul), first vegetative, then animal, then human.  Prior to its animation, while the foetus was in its vegetative and animal state, Rome did not see aborting it as a major sin.

The East knew of these peculiar teachings of the Western brethren and rejected them (cf. Saint Basil the Great.)

Grace and Peace Father,

How does the Orthodox Church teach Ancestral Sin? How is it transfered Father?

Met Kallistos Ware


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/__P13.HTM

The Fall: Original Sin.     God gave Adam free will — the power to choose between good

and evil — and it therefore rested With Adam either to accept the vocation set before him or to

refuse it. He refused it. Instead of continuing along the path marked out for him by God, he

turned aside and disobeyed God. Adam’s fall consisted essentially in his disobedience of the will

of God; he set up his own will against the divine will, and so by his own act he separated himself

from God. As a result, a new form of existence appeared on earth — that of disease and death.

By turning away from God, who is immortality and life, man put himself in a state that was contrary

to nature, and this unnatural condition led to an inevitable disintegration of his being and

eventually to physical death. The consequences of Adam’s disobedience extended to all his descendants.

We are members one of another, as Saint Paul never ceased to insist, and if one member

suffers the whole body suffers. In virtue of this mysterious unity of the human race, not only

Adam but all mankind became subject to mortality. Nor was the disintegration which followed

from the fall merely physical. Cut off from God, Adam and his descendants passed under the

domination of sin and of the devil. Each new human being is born into a world where sin prevails

everywhere, a world in which it is easy to do evil and hard to do good. Man’s will is weakened

and enfeebled by what the Greeks call ‘desire’ and the Latins ‘concupiscence.’ We are all

subject to these, the spiritual effects of original sin.

Thus far there is fairly close agreement between Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and classic

Protestantism; but beyond this point east and west do not entirely concur. Orthodoxy, holding

as it does a less exalted idea of man’s state before he fell, is also less severe than the west in its

view of the consequences of the fall. Adam fell, not from a great height of knowledge and perfection,

but from a state of undeveloped simplicity; hence he is not to be judged too harshly for

his error. Certainly, as a result of the fall man’s mind became so darkened, and his will-power

was so impaired, that he could no longer hope to attain to the likeness of God. Orthodox, however,

do not hold that the fall deprived man entirely of God’s grace, though they would say that

after the fall grace acts on man from the outside, not from within.


Grace and Peace Father,

Thank you for this post, it was very nourishing.

Tell me Father, if Ancestral Sin is both within man and without... how is it that the Virgin Mary remained sinless? How was she greeted by the Angel Gabriel as "Full of Grace..."



Well. of course, she wasn't greeted in that fashion.  "Gratia plena"  (full of grace) was simply Saint Jerome's poor translation of Greek.

The holy archangel actually said to her (if we read the original Greek in which the Gospels were written) -  "O Graced One" or "You who have been graced."

If you look at some recent translations of the Bible, among both Protestants and Catholics, you will see they are no longer citing Jerome's error of  "Full of grace."
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« Reply #434 on: December 29, 2011, 12:47:59 AM »


In those days, germ would have been that thingie that Orthonorm says is nothing but a blob of tissue...not a person.


Probably been misled by the centuries long and erroneous teachings of the Orthodox Popes of Rome and Western theologians about the nature of a foetus prior to its animation (implanting of a human soul), first vegetative, then animal, then human.  Prior to its animation, while the foetus was in its vegetative and animal state, Rome did not see aborting it as a major sin.

The East knew of these peculiar teachings of the Western brethren and rejected them (cf. Saint Basil the Great.)

Grace and Peace Father,

How does the Orthodox Church teach Ancestral Sin? How is it transfered Father?

Met Kallistos Ware


http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0804/__P13.HTM

The Fall: Original Sin.     God gave Adam free will — the power to choose between good

and evil — and it therefore rested With Adam either to accept the vocation set before him or to

refuse it. He refused it. Instead of continuing along the path marked out for him by God, he

turned aside and disobeyed God. Adam’s fall consisted essentially in his disobedience of the will

of God; he set up his own will against the divine will, and so by his own act he separated himself

from God. As a result, a new form of existence appeared on earth — that of disease and death.

By turning away from God, who is immortality and life, man put himself in a state that was contrary

to nature, and this unnatural condition led to an inevitable disintegration of his being and

eventually to physical death. The consequences of Adam’s disobedience extended to all his descendants.

We are members one of another, as Saint Paul never ceased to insist, and if one member

suffers the whole body suffers. In virtue of this mysterious unity of the human race, not only

Adam but all mankind became subject to mortality. Nor was the disintegration which followed

from the fall merely physical. Cut off from God, Adam and his descendants passed under the

domination of sin and of the devil. Each new human being is born into a world where sin prevails

everywhere, a world in which it is easy to do evil and hard to do good. Man’s will is weakened

and enfeebled by what the Greeks call ‘desire’ and the Latins ‘concupiscence.’ We are all

subject to these, the spiritual effects of original sin.

Thus far there is fairly close agreement between Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, and classic

Protestantism; but beyond this point east and west do not entirely concur. Orthodoxy, holding

as it does a less exalted idea of man’s state before he fell, is also less severe than the west in its

view of the consequences of the fall. Adam fell, not from a great height of knowledge and perfection,

but from a state of undeveloped simplicity; hence he is not to be judged too harshly for

his error. Certainly, as a result of the fall man’s mind became so darkened, and his will-power

was so impaired, that he could no longer hope to attain to the likeness of God. Orthodox, however,

do not hold that the fall deprived man entirely of God’s grace, though they would say that

after the fall grace acts on man from the outside, not from within.


Grace and Peace Father,

Thank you for this post, it was very nourishing.

Tell me Father, if Ancestral Sin is both within man and without... how is it that the Virgin Mary remained sinless? How was she greeted by the Angel Gabriel as "Full of Grace..."



Well. of course, she wasn't greeted in that fashion.  "Gratia plena"  (full of grace) was simply Saint Jerome's poor translation of Greek.

The holy archangel actually said to her (if we read the original Greek in which the Gospels were written) -  "O Graced One" or "You who have been graced."

If you look at some recent translations of the Bible, among both Protestants and Catholics, you will see they are no longer citing Jerome's error of  "Full of grace."

How's yer Greek?
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« Reply #435 on: December 29, 2011, 12:58:44 AM »

How's yer Greek?

Definitely not good enough to read Saint Gregory Palamas.  I envy you!
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« Reply #436 on: December 29, 2011, 12:05:41 PM »

Well. of course, she wasn't greeted in that fashion.  "Gratia plena"  (full of grace) was simply Saint Jerome's poor translation of Greek.

The holy archangel actually said to her (if we read the original Greek in which the Gospels were written) -  "O Graced One" or "You who have been graced."

If you look at some recent translations of the Bible, among both Protestants and Catholics, you will see they are no longer citing Jerome's error of  "Full of grace."

How's yer Greek?
Fine. How's your Aramaic?
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« Reply #437 on: December 29, 2011, 06:14:43 PM »

Well. of course, she wasn't greeted in that fashion.  "Gratia plena"  (full of grace) was simply Saint Jerome's poor translation of Greek.

The holy archangel actually said to her (if we read the original Greek in which the Gospels were written) -  "O Graced One" or "You who have been graced."

If you look at some recent translations of the Bible, among both Protestants and Catholics, you will see they are no longer citing Jerome's error of  "Full of grace."

How's yer Greek?
Fine. How's your Aramaic?

Do not ECFs like St. Athanasius describe her as "full of grace", as well?
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« Reply #438 on: December 30, 2011, 02:21:15 AM »

Well. of course, she wasn't greeted in that fashion.  "Gratia plena"  (full of grace) was simply Saint Jerome's poor translation of Greek.

The holy archangel actually said to her (if we read the original Greek in which the Gospels were written) -  "O Graced One" or "You who have been graced."

If you look at some recent translations of the Bible, among both Protestants and Catholics, you will see they are no longer citing Jerome's error of  "Full of grace."

How's yer Greek?
Fine. How's your Aramaic?

Do not ECFs like St. Athanasius describe her as "full of grace", as well?

scripture describes her as full of grace, if that means anything
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« Reply #439 on: December 30, 2011, 09:54:08 AM »

Well. of course, she wasn't greeted in that fashion.  "Gratia plena"  (full of grace) was simply Saint Jerome's poor translation of Greek.

The holy archangel actually said to her (if we read the original Greek in which the Gospels were written) -  "O Graced One" or "You who have been graced."

If you look at some recent translations of the Bible, among both Protestants and Catholics, you will see they are no longer citing Jerome's error of  "Full of grace."

How's yer Greek?
Fine. How's your Aramaic?

Do not ECFs like St. Athanasius describe her as "full of grace", as well?

scripture describes her as full of grace, if that means anything

Depends who you ask.
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« Reply #440 on: December 30, 2011, 11:17:55 AM »

Well. of course, she wasn't greeted in that fashion.  "Gratia plena"  (full of grace) was simply Saint Jerome's poor translation of Greek.

The holy archangel actually said to her (if we read the original Greek in which the Gospels were written) -  "O Graced One" or "You who have been graced."

If you look at some recent translations of the Bible, among both Protestants and Catholics, you will see they are no longer citing Jerome's error of  "Full of grace."

How's yer Greek?
Fine. How's your Aramaic?

Do not ECFs like St. Athanasius describe her as "full of grace", as well?

scripture describes her as full of grace, if that means anything

Depends who you ask.
Scripture describes St. Stephen as full of grace (Acts 6:8 ).  Is he immaculately conceived as well?  Also, according to II Cor. 9:8-14-and your interpretation-God can IC us all.  Does He?
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« Reply #441 on: December 30, 2011, 11:26:39 AM »

I also think that using the term "immaculate" from the writings of folks over 1,000 years prior to it being defined as the RCC defined it, probably isn't the best way to go.

PP
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« Reply #442 on: December 30, 2011, 12:22:24 PM »

I also think that using the term "immaculate" from the writings of folks over 1,000 years prior to it being defined as the RCC defined it, probably isn't the best way to go.

PP

So true.  Any discussion of this sort should clearly define words and expressions such as "full of Grace" (highly favored) and "immaculate" from the beginning.  Even my Orthodox prayer books use different words to translate some of the same prayers.

Words are loaded with meaning.
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« Reply #443 on: December 30, 2011, 12:27:55 PM »

Scripture describes St. Stephen as full of grace (Acts 6:8 ).

Yet, not sinless.

Is he immaculately conceived as well? 

Therefore, no reason to believe he was ALWAYS full of grace.

Also, according to II Cor. 9:8-14-and your interpretation-God can IC us all.

Yes, of course he could.

Does He?


Obviously not by conception. Though being saintly is possible for everyone (with God's help), and therefore the calling for all to be 'full of Grace'.
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« Reply #444 on: January 11, 2012, 01:38:07 AM »

Quote
Anthony:
The IC does bear upon Christ's perfect human nature,because he inherited it from Mary.

Quote
No, it was perfected in His, the sole Immaculate, conception.  Were it otherwise, He would be consubstantial with His mother alone, not with us.

Quote
That doesn't follow. His human nature would not be separate from ours for being inherited from immaculate Mary. He didn't need to share in our corruption in order to share in our human nature. Human nature is not identical to its corruption. Why would you think that he would not be consubstantial with us if Mary were immaculately conceived?

Quote
Because it states the direct intervention of God isolating her from humanity.

The IC does not state that God isolated her from humanity,it states that he preserved her from original sin. Again,human nature itself is not identical with human sinfulness.
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« Reply #445 on: January 11, 2012, 01:52:52 AM »

Sometimes I wonder why the Immaculate Conception is so important to Catholics.   Doesn't everyone enter the exact same sinless and immaculate state at the time of their baptism?
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« Reply #446 on: January 11, 2012, 02:25:47 AM »

Quote
If you get your human nature from Adam, it is a fallen nature.

Quote
You wouldn't say that about Christ,so why would you say it about the person from whom he directly received human nature?

Quote
Because I haven't fallen for the folly of the semi-incarnation of the Immaculata.  I'm sticking to the Gospel the Apostles preached, not the one Maximillian Kolbe claimed to receive from Bernadette.

What does the IC have to do with semi-incarnation? The Church does not teach that Mary is God incarnate. [/quote]

And then, what about the interpretation of those canonized by the Vatican, and those who teach with its authority?

The Immaculate Conception and the Co-redemptrix        
Written by Mark Miravalle    


Like the rest of the IC, just give it time....

There is nothing in that article that says that Mary is God incarnate.

Quote
Do you think that God gave him a human nature that was not that of the rest of mankind? Christ did inherit his human nature from Adam,but not the privation of grace and the corruption.

Quote
Because He inherited that from His Father.

Quote
Now that's a new teaching.

Quote
No, just the Gospel Truth preached by Christ and His Apostles.

Scripture does not say that he inherited his human nature from his Father.

So he inherited a human nature from his Father,who is not human?


Quote
No, He received His divine nature from His Father, Who is divine.  He didn't lose it in the incarnation, which is how/why He is immaculately conceived without being seperated from humanity, and how/why His mother is not.

We were talking about his human nature,not his divine nature. He inherited human nature from Mary,and he inherited it free from corruption.

If his human nature was inherited or created from nothing by the Father,then he really would be separate from the human race.

Quote
If His human nature was inherited from a human seperated from the rest of humanity by the Father, which is what the IC teaches, then He really would be seperate from the human race.

Again,the IC does not say that Mary was separate from the rest of humanity. She was conceived of human parents.

Quote
St. John of Damascus [Homily on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary]:
Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!

Quote
You are aware that he is speaking of St. Anne's barrenness, no?

Quote
He also mentioned "a germ which is all-immaculate".

Quote
Yes, the immaculate semen that Fr. Ambrose refered to.  Since St. John didn't believe, nor taught, the IC, I need not read the IC into it.

The all-immaculate germ refers to newly conceived Mary.

Quote
Btw, on the misuse of St. John:
St. John Damascene at various places in his writings shows a clear belief in Our Lady's Immaculate Conception. He explains in a sermon on Mary's nativity why she was born of a sterile mother. "Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace, but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit." In the homilies on the Assumption, St. John explains: that, although not subject to death, died nonetheless. Death, of course, is the penalty for sin, and only one preserved even from Original Sin would be exempt.

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary19-2.htm

You left out the conclusion.

< For how could she who brought life to all, be under the dominion of death? But she obeys the law of her own Son and inherits this chastisement as a daughter of the first Adam, since her Son, Who is the Life, did not refuse it. As the Mother of the Living God, she goes through death to Him. [Sermon 2] >
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« Reply #447 on: January 11, 2012, 03:06:33 AM »

Scripture describes St. Stephen as full of grace (Acts 6:8 ).

Yet, not sinless.

Scripture doesn't describe the Theotokos as sinless either.

(or in other words, if the Scriptural description of Mary as 'full of grace' is used as the basis for teaching either her sinlessness or her immaculate conception, then the same logic should apply to St. Stephen).
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« Reply #448 on: January 11, 2012, 12:45:18 PM »

As I stated earlier. We cant use a term like immaculate in our definition as to something that was described 1,000 years prior to such a definition.

PP
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« Reply #449 on: January 14, 2012, 12:46:03 AM »

Sometimes I wonder why the Immaculate Conception is so important to Catholics.   Doesn't everyone enter the exact same sinless and immaculate state at the time of their baptism?
Briefly...until they commit their first post-baptismal sin. Although I would hardly consider myself to have ever been "full of grace" even a millisecond after my baptism.
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