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Author Topic: Imaculate Conception  (Read 18435 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #315 on: December 17, 2011, 06:26:26 PM »

To help you along, elijahmaria, I have done some research on my own. Based on what I have read, what Archimandrite Irenei explains in the aforementioned podcast is consistent with the Orthodox Church's teaching on the Immaculate Conception, and does not in any misconstrue the Roman Catholic Teaching.

Here is the Roman Catholic doctrine, as explained on newadvent.org:

Quote
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.

The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam — from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.

The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."

Here is the teaching of the Orthodox Church, as explained by +ArchBishop Maximos, of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of the Metropolitan of Pittsburgh, (retired):

Quote
Does the Mother of God, Virgin Mary, participate in the "ancestral sin?" The question does not make much sense for the Orthodox, for it is obvious that Mary, being part of the common human race issued of the first man (Adam), automatically participates in the fallen status and in the "spiritual death" introduced by the sin of the first man.

The Fathers of the Church speculate on Luke 1:35, concluding that Mary was purified by the Holy Spirit the day of Annunciation, in order for her to become the "worthy Mother of God." However, even after she gave birth to the Son of God, Mary was not exempted of less serious ("venial") sins. St. John Chrysostom attributes to Mary the sin of vanity, in the context of the first miracle of Christ in Cana of Galilee.

Mary was also saved by her Son, for God is her Savior (Luke 1: 47) as well. It is unfortunate that the Roman Catholic Church promulgated the doctrine of the so-called "Immaculate Conception" in 1854, which contradicts the traditional doctrine of the Church concerning Mary.
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« Reply #316 on: December 17, 2011, 06:29:00 PM »

Wasn't meant to be cute..."ad homonym" is not quite right.  I was trying to point toward your error by making light of it.

You are certainly entitled to your errors and your opinion.

Congratulations, you've spotted my spelling error. Good for you. Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back.

I'm still waiting for your to inform me as to what in the broadcast was incorrect, and for the appropriate sources as the where the correct information can be found.

I listen to Orthodox Christian Network quite regularly; I would hate to be misled down the path of incorrect information when someone such as yourself can enlighten me with the correct manner of thinking.

So far all you have done is made sarcastic remarks.

There are a large number of threads on this Forum that should enlighten you as to the Catholic teaching that is not dictated by Orthodox opinions on what the Catholic Church teaches...my one holy catholic and apostolic papal Church that is.  Apparently you have not yet read them.   Wink
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« Reply #317 on: December 17, 2011, 06:35:06 PM »

Wasn't meant to be cute..."ad homonym" is not quite right.  I was trying to point toward your error by making light of it.

You are certainly entitled to your errors and your opinion.

Congratulations, you've spotted my spelling error. Good for you. Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back.

I'm still waiting for your to inform me as to what in the broadcast was incorrect, and for the appropriate sources as the where the correct information can be found.

I listen to Orthodox Christian Network quite regularly; I would hate to be misled down the path of incorrect information when someone such as yourself can enlighten me with the correct manner of thinking.

So far all you have done is made sarcastic remarks.

There are a large number of threads on this Forum that should enlighten you as to the Catholic teaching that is not dictated by Orthodox opinions on what the Catholic Church teaches...my one holy catholic and apostolic papal Church that is.  Apparently you have not yet read them.   Wink

Why should I have to waste my time reading past threads when you can't give me a straight answer as to what was wrong in the broadcast?

To me, this is just further evidence that you are just a troll, and have nothing to really offer in way of constructive criticism.
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« Reply #318 on: December 17, 2011, 06:39:15 PM »

Quote
I never said the texts "proved" the Immaculate Conception.  I said that they were Orthodox liturgical texts that stood in juxtaposition against the often asserted idea that the Immaculate Conception is the "great exception"...and the idea that the Mother of God is "just like us" which is something I hear over and over again on Orthodox venues.  I said that the actual texts would not preclude the possibility that she was holy in a unique way from the moment of her becoming a person.

I have published the texts several times here and on other venues.  They are available in the Mother Mary/Bishop Ware Festal Menaion.

The texts you quoted in the thread we both contributed to were of the Orthodox service for the Conception of the Mother of God. There is nothing in those texts which support the IC. The texts for this feast in your Byzantine Catholic service, which I posted, include verses for the Litia which proclaim the IC. These verses are additions to conform with Roman Catholic doctrine, and are not found in any Orthodox menaion, including that compiled by the Bishop Kallistos and Mother Mary. The Orthodox hymnography does not include a Litia. It is a lower-ranking feast. The BC feast is of full Vigil rank.

This takes nothing away from what I have actually said.

Nonsense. Go back to that thread, and you'll find yourself desperately trying to show that the Orthodox hymnography of both the Conception and the Entry into the Temple supports the IC. Which it clearly doesn't, as I demonstrated. The fact that the Byzantine Catholics, who are subject, after all, to Rome, have added hymnography proclaiming the IC to the Conception feast speaks volumes. If the existing Orthodox hymnography was sufficient, why the need to add to it?
LBK,

Can you provide a link to that thread, because I would like to read the texts quoted in it.

Thank you.
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« Reply #319 on: December 17, 2011, 06:50:51 PM »


To me, this is just further evidence that you are just a troll, and have nothing to really offer in way of constructive criticism.

It is rare that we see such a "lightbulb moment" at OC.net. Thank you for sharing such a moment with us!

(I'm being serious and not slamming you, Handmaiden. I just wanted to highlight your sentence for the potential benefit of others).
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« Reply #320 on: December 17, 2011, 07:07:09 PM »

Wasn't meant to be cute..."ad homonym" is not quite right.  I was trying to point toward your error by making light of it.

You are certainly entitled to your errors and your opinion.

Congratulations, you've spotted my spelling error. Good for you. Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back.

I'm still waiting for your to inform me as to what in the broadcast was incorrect, and for the appropriate sources as the where the correct information can be found.

I listen to Orthodox Christian Network quite regularly; I would hate to be misled down the path of incorrect information when someone such as yourself can enlighten me with the correct manner of thinking.

So far all you have done is made sarcastic remarks.

There are a large number of threads on this Forum that should enlighten you as to the Catholic teaching that is not dictated by Orthodox opinions on what the Catholic Church teaches...my one holy catholic and apostolic papal Church that is.  Apparently you have not yet read them.   Wink

WHAT Catholic Church?!

The ROMAN Catholic teaching on the "Immaculate Conception" is NOT the same as the EASTERN Catholic
.

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« Reply #321 on: December 17, 2011, 07:14:20 PM »

In defensu Mariae:

I conceived a great love for Mary when she joined me in battle on another list against a handful of convert priests who were insisting that the Eucharist is Christ’s Body and Blood only, His soul and divinity being absent !!!!! Can you imagine?!   Apparently they had never heard of the Fourth Ecumenical Council and the Hypostatic Union, nor even the teaching of the Church, her saints, her theologians and her seminaries.  As I fought this solitary battle, Ambrosius contra mundum,  Mary came in on my side to defend the fullness of Christ in the Eucharist.   Other priests did not participate which I thought had a rather ominous significance.  Months later I had an unexpected e-mail from the bishop of one of the erring priests to say that he had discussed the matter with him and instructed him in authentic Eucharistic theology.

I have to smile because this example *so* disproves Mary's repeated assertion that Catholics and Orthodox cannot cooperate in defense of theological truth.   laugh
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« Reply #322 on: December 17, 2011, 08:10:22 PM »


To me, this is just further evidence that you are just a troll, and have nothing to really offer in way of constructive criticism.

It is rare that we see such a "lightbulb moment" at OC.net. Thank you for sharing such a moment with us!

(I'm being serious and not slamming you, Handmaiden. I just wanted to highlight your sentence for the potential benefit of others).

From a priest? ...really?

How sad.
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« Reply #323 on: December 17, 2011, 11:45:58 PM »

Quote
I never said the texts "proved" the Immaculate Conception.  I said that they were Orthodox liturgical texts that stood in juxtaposition against the often asserted idea that the Immaculate Conception is the "great exception"...and the idea that the Mother of God is "just like us" which is something I hear over and over again on Orthodox venues.  I said that the actual texts would not preclude the possibility that she was holy in a unique way from the moment of her becoming a person.

I have published the texts several times here and on other venues.  They are available in the Mother Mary/Bishop Ware Festal Menaion.

The texts you quoted in the thread we both contributed to were of the Orthodox service for the Conception of the Mother of God. There is nothing in those texts which support the IC. The texts for this feast in your Byzantine Catholic service, which I posted, include verses for the Litia which proclaim the IC. These verses are additions to conform with Roman Catholic doctrine, and are not found in any Orthodox menaion, including that compiled by the Bishop Kallistos and Mother Mary. The Orthodox hymnography does not include a Litia. It is a lower-ranking feast. The BC feast is of full Vigil rank.

This takes nothing away from what I have actually said.

Nonsense. Go back to that thread, and you'll find yourself desperately trying to show that the Orthodox hymnography of both the Conception and the Entry into the Temple supports the IC. Which it clearly doesn't, as I demonstrated. The fact that the Byzantine Catholics, who are subject, after all, to Rome, have added hymnography proclaiming the IC to the Conception feast speaks volumes. If the existing Orthodox hymnography was sufficient, why the need to add to it?
LBK,

Can you provide a link to that thread, because I would like to read the texts quoted in it.

Thank you.

Here you are, Apotheoun:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23379.msg433134.html#msg433134

and, this post being the first in a long series of to and fro:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23379.msg433631.html#msg433631
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« Reply #324 on: December 17, 2011, 11:52:59 PM »

... and this post, which starts another sequence from the same thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23379.msg434826.html#msg434826

and http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23379.msg435097.html#msg435097
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« Reply #325 on: December 18, 2011, 12:00:55 AM »

I thought calling someone a troll was against site rules.
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« Reply #326 on: December 18, 2011, 12:34:18 AM »

... and this one:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23379.msg438674.html#msg438674
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« Reply #327 on: December 18, 2011, 12:45:36 AM »

LBK,

Thank you for the links.
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« Reply #328 on: December 18, 2011, 09:40:23 AM »

I thought calling someone a troll was against site rules.

Nope. We have had multiple situations where a person may describe another as a troll, post 'Don't Feed the Troll' artwork, etc.

This is because such actions are ultimately in the best interests of other posters and the site itself. Certain posters have demonstrated themselves to not be interested in responding to the inquiries of others or even defending the positions that they make. They will either ignore the burden of clash that they are supposed to present in the debate, or just reiterate their previous point.

Therefore pointing out to the rest of the site that a poster is a troll should let others know to not even bother to respond to their trollish posts.

What is astounding to me is that we even have a thread established for unproductive, trollish bickering. Although mainly populated by posts from three persons:

-they just do not seem to understand that the act of moving their trollish posts to a separate thread with such a pejorative title is an indication that their conduct is not encouraged here and should be a mark of disgrace; and

-we get other posters who seem to want to participate in their trollish behavior, exactly against the admonition to wrestle a pig in her pen (why shouldn't you do so? Because all that will happen is that you'll get as dirty as the sow, and only wind up entertaining her).

So, I fully support the recognition of certain posters as trolls, which of course other trolls do not support since it cuts down on their amusement here. Much like the trolls of mythology, though, exposing trolls to light may cause them to leave or be changed into stone and freezing their behavior so that it no longer plagues us here. Either ending is fine with me since the troll no longer inflicts us with his or her behavior.
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« Reply #329 on: December 18, 2011, 01:57:47 PM »

I thought calling someone a troll was against site rules.

Not when there's a priestly blessing to do so... Wink
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« Reply #330 on: December 18, 2011, 02:32:27 PM »

 Sad Undecided Cry

Okay. Understood.
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« Reply #331 on: December 18, 2011, 02:54:31 PM »

Sad Undecided Cry

Okay. Understood.

As we come closer to understanding...and believing one another...those who do not want that will become meaner, louder, more hysterical, and more willing to lay aside all care for truth or charity.

For a regular poster here and an administrator/priest from the forum to call me a troll for simply saying that an Orthodox podcast displays the same kind of ignorance about Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception as can be found in the dozen or more threads that I've read on this forum is just one example of the effort to stop all real communication between Orthodox and Catholics.

To demand that I say how the podcast is wrong, when I've already done so at least two or three times in general on this forum is simply an excuse to cast stones.  It's really very sad. 

I don't intend to simply repeat myself just to allow them one more opportunity to tell me I'm a liar or mis-informed.  There have been others, totally unrelated to me, saying the same thing that I have said.  Why would I respond to those who want no real communication in the first place?  When I speak here, I do so at moments when I think there may be a chance that I'll be heard fairly, before the ash starts to fall.

M.
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« Reply #332 on: December 18, 2011, 03:32:23 PM »

Sad Undecided Cry

Okay. Understood.

As we come closer to understanding...and believing one another...those who do not want that will become meaner, louder, more hysterical, and more willing to lay aside all care for truth or charity.

For a regular poster here and an administrator/priest from the forum to call me a troll for simply saying that an Orthodox podcast displays the same kind of ignorance about Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception as can be found in the dozen or more threads that I've read on this forum is just one example of the effort to stop all real communication between Orthodox and Catholics.

To demand that I say how the podcast is wrong, when I've already done so at least two or three times in general on this forum is simply an excuse to cast stones.  It's really very sad. 

I don't intend to simply repeat myself just to allow them one more opportunity to tell me I'm a liar or mis-informed.  There have been others, totally unrelated to me, saying the same thing that I have said.  Why would I respond to those who want no real communication in the first place?  When I speak here, I do so at moments when I think there may be a chance that I'll be heard fairly, before the ash starts to fall.

M.

Don't play victim elijahmaria.

I am not a "Catholic hater." I do not disrespect the Catholic Church. In fact, because of my Polish Grandmother's Catholic piety, I have much love and admiration for the Catholic Church. I have posted as such in the past, and even my posts on this thread have been respectful of the Catholic faith. My posts have simply outlined the differences in doctrine between the two Churches. I have quoted reliable sources, and have not said anything mean about either Church.

What I do not appreciate is people who just say "that's wrong" and don't explain why.

I should not have to read through every thread on the Immaculate Conception that you have commented on to try to guess what was said in the podcast that offended you.

So put on your big girl panties and deal with it.

This is not about me, as an Orthodox Christian, not liking you, because you are Catholic.

This is about me, as a member of a discussion forum, being annoyed by someone intentionally being a troll and a roadblock to forward discussion in a forum.

That is what this is about.

I did not call you a troll to simply throw out names, I called you a troll because you are coming on this thread, whining about how disrespectful the Orthodox are to the Catholics, and refusing to answer direct questions posed to you.

THAT is why I called you a troll.

Quote
troll   
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
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« Reply #333 on: December 18, 2011, 03:46:16 PM »

Sad Undecided Cry

Okay. Understood.

As we come closer to understanding...and believing one another...those who do not want that will become meaner, louder, more hysterical, and more willing to lay aside all care for truth or charity.

For a regular poster here and an administrator/priest from the forum to call me a troll for simply saying that an Orthodox podcast displays the same kind of ignorance about Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception as can be found in the dozen or more threads that I've read on this forum is just one example of the effort to stop all real communication between Orthodox and Catholics.

To demand that I say how the podcast is wrong, when I've already done so at least two or three times in general on this forum is simply an excuse to cast stones.  It's really very sad. 

I don't intend to simply repeat myself just to allow them one more opportunity to tell me I'm a liar or mis-informed.  There have been others, totally unrelated to me, saying the same thing that I have said.  Why would I respond to those who want no real communication in the first place?  When I speak here, I do so at moments when I think there may be a chance that I'll be heard fairly, before the ash starts to fall.

M.


This is about me, as a member of a discussion forum, being annoyed by someone intentionally being a troll and a roadblock to forward discussion in a forum.

That is what this is about.

I did not call you a troll to simply throw out names, I called you a troll because you are coming on this thread, whining about how disrespectful the Orthodox are to the Catholics, and refusing to answer direct questions posed to you.

THAT is why I called you a troll.


Had I not already, on this Forum in more than one thread on the Immaculate Conception, spilled much ink on what the Catholic Church means by the Immaculate Conception only to be shot down over and over again, you might have a case.  A simple search will demonstrate you have no case here.

Now I am finished feeding the wolves...

 Wink
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« Reply #334 on: December 18, 2011, 04:56:44 PM »

Sad Undecided Cry

Okay. Understood.

As we come closer to understanding...and believing one another...those who do not want that will become meaner, louder, more hysterical, and more willing to lay aside all care for truth or charity.

For a regular poster here and an administrator/priest from the forum to call me a troll for simply saying that an Orthodox podcast displays the same kind of ignorance about Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception as can be found in the dozen or more threads that I've read on this forum is just one example of the effort to stop all real communication between Orthodox and Catholics.

To demand that I say how the podcast is wrong, when I've already done so at least two or three times in general on this forum is simply an excuse to cast stones.  It's really very sad. 

I don't intend to simply repeat myself just to allow them one more opportunity to tell me I'm a liar or mis-informed.  There have been others, totally unrelated to me, saying the same thing that I have said.  Why would I respond to those who want no real communication in the first place?  When I speak here, I do so at moments when I think there may be a chance that I'll be heard fairly, before the ash starts to fall.

M.


This is about me, as a member of a discussion forum, being annoyed by someone intentionally being a troll and a roadblock to forward discussion in a forum.

That is what this is about.

I did not call you a troll to simply throw out names, I called you a troll because you are coming on this thread, whining about how disrespectful the Orthodox are to the Catholics, and refusing to answer direct questions posed to you.

THAT is why I called you a troll.

?
Had I not already, on this Forum in more than one thread on the Immaculate Conception, spilled much ink on what the Catholic Church means by the Immaculate Conception only to be shot down over and over again, you might have a case.  A simple search will demonstrate you have no case here.

Now I am finished feeding the wolves...

 Wink

*sigh* while I certainly understand a desire not to repeat oneself ad infinitum you could take the middle ground and post links to your past posts instead of playing martyr.

Some of us here do actually want to know more about your idea of Roman Catholic teaching and aren't just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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« Reply #335 on: December 18, 2011, 05:03:10 PM »


*sigh* while I certainly understand a desire not to repeat oneself ad infinitum you could take the middle ground and post links to your past posts instead of playing martyr.


Can you understand that at the moment after what just transpired, I simply don't feel like it.  I don't want to go back and open myself up to more of the same?

If you really want to know what I've been taught then please open another thread and ask me, and if the same thing happens that usually happens with al Misry, I reserve the right to stop feeding the wolves.

M.
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« Reply #336 on: December 18, 2011, 05:26:12 PM »


*sigh* while I certainly understand a desire not to repeat oneself ad infinitum you could take the middle ground and post links to your past posts instead of playing martyr.


Can you understand that at the moment after what just transpired, I simply don't feel like it.  I don't want to go back and open myself up to more of the same?

If you really want to know what I've been taught then please open another thread and ask me, and if the same thing happens that usually happens with al Misry, I reserve the right to stop feeding the wolves.

M.

No, thank you. I've resolved to not try to wrap my head around the conflicting RC teachings until I finally figure out that whole "papal infallibility" thing. And I believe I've already got a decent idea on your opinions on that one.

Just thought I'd give you a friendly reminder that not all the posters on the forum are interested in argument for arguments' sake.

Though you might want to keep in mind that not all Roman Catholics mean the same thing when it comes to IC or any other Roman teachings, so when an Orthodox poster has a different idea about said teachings they aren't necessarily being dishonest or mistaken, they might just be getting their information from a different source.
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« Reply #337 on: December 18, 2011, 05:29:38 PM »


*sigh* while I certainly understand a desire not to repeat oneself ad infinitum you could take the middle ground and post links to your past posts instead of playing martyr.


Can you understand that at the moment after what just transpired, I simply don't feel like it.  I don't want to go back and open myself up to more of the same?

If you really want to know what I've been taught then please open another thread and ask me, and if the same thing happens that usually happens with al Misry, I reserve the right to stop feeding the wolves.

M.

No, thank you. I've resolved to not try to wrap my head around the conflicting RC teachings until I finally figure out that whole "papal infallibility" thing. And I believe I've already got a decent idea on your opinions on that one.

Just thought I'd give you a friendly reminder that not all the posters on the forum are interested in argument for arguments' sake.

Though you might want to keep in mind that not all Roman Catholics mean the same thing when it comes to IC or any other Roman teachings, so when an Orthodox poster has a different idea about said teachings they aren't necessarily being dishonest or mistaken, they might just be getting their information from a different source.

Pardon me if this appears to be rude, but I've been engaging Orthodox believers on the Internet with these kinds of issues for nearly 17 years now and I think I can tell the difference between genuine and pernicious confusion.  So I take your message to heart and trust that you are genuine in your interest.
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« Reply #338 on: December 18, 2011, 05:42:57 PM »


*sigh* while I certainly understand a desire not to repeat oneself ad infinitum you could take the middle ground and post links to your past posts instead of playing martyr.


Can you understand that at the moment after what just transpired, I simply don't feel like it.  I don't want to go back and open myself up to more of the same?

If you really want to know what I've been taught then please open another thread and ask me, and if the same thing happens that usually happens with al Misry, I reserve the right to stop feeding the wolves.

M.

No, thank you. I've resolved to not try to wrap my head around the conflicting RC teachings until I finally figure out that whole "papal infallibility" thing. And I believe I've already got a decent idea on your opinions on that one.

Just thought I'd give you a friendly reminder that not all the posters on the forum are interested in argument for arguments' sake.

Though you might want to keep in mind that not all Roman Catholics mean the same thing when it comes to IC or any other Roman teachings, so when an Orthodox poster has a different idea about said teachings they aren't necessarily being dishonest or mistaken, they might just be getting their information from a different source.

Pardon me if this appears to be rude, but I've been engaging Orthodox believers on the Internet with these kinds of issues for nearly 17 years now and I think I can tell the difference between genuine and pernicious confusion.  So I take your message to heart and trust that you are genuine in your interest.

Not rude at all. I've been questioning Roman Catholics for almost as long (since before the reformer was former) and I'm more confused than ever!
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« Reply #339 on: December 18, 2011, 05:46:28 PM »

Though you might want to keep in mind that not all Roman Catholics mean the same thing when it comes to IC

Mary's in a cleft stick over this one because she is not Roman Catholic but Eastern Catholic and there are, as you say, different teachings on the "Immaculate Conception."  
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« Reply #340 on: December 18, 2011, 05:50:29 PM »

Not rude at all. I've been questioning Roman Catholics for almost as long (since before the reformer was former) and I'm more confused than ever!
 

 I am genuinely sorry to hear that!... but it seems you have found your spiritual and ecclesial home in any event and that is a good thing!
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« Reply #341 on: December 18, 2011, 07:45:49 PM »

Sad Undecided Cry

Okay. Understood.

As we come closer to understanding...and believing one another...those who do not want that will become meaner, louder, more hysterical, and more willing to lay aside all care for truth or charity.

For a regular poster here and an administrator/priest from the forum to call me a troll for simply saying that an Orthodox podcast displays the same kind of ignorance about Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception as can be found in the dozen or more threads that I've read on this forum is just one example of the effort to stop all real communication between Orthodox and Catholics.
If you are going to label something ignorant, you had better back up the accusation.  Sic dixit + is not communication.

To demand that I say how the podcast is wrong, when I've already done so at least two or three times in general on this forum is simply an excuse to cast stones.  It's really very sad.

what is sad is that it doesn't even seem that you ever addressed in a general manner in all those posts ever on the alleged "wrongs" the podcast shares with whatever strawman you claim to have defeated.

I don't intend to simply repeat myself just to allow them one more opportunity to tell me I'm a liar or mis-informed.  There have been others, totally unrelated to me, saying the same thing that I have said.  Why would I respond to those who want no real communication in the first place?  When I speak here, I do so at moments when I think there may be a chance that I'll be heard fairly, before the ash starts to fall.

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« Reply #342 on: December 18, 2011, 07:48:36 PM »

Sad Undecided Cry

Okay. Understood.

As we come closer to understanding...and believing one another...those who do not want that will become meaner, louder, more hysterical, and more willing to lay aside all care for truth or charity.

For a regular poster here and an administrator/priest from the forum to call me a troll for simply saying that an Orthodox podcast displays the same kind of ignorance about Catholic teaching concerning the Immaculate Conception as can be found in the dozen or more threads that I've read on this forum is just one example of the effort to stop all real communication between Orthodox and Catholics.

To demand that I say how the podcast is wrong, when I've already done so at least two or three times in general on this forum is simply an excuse to cast stones.  It's really very sad. 

I don't intend to simply repeat myself just to allow them one more opportunity to tell me I'm a liar or mis-informed.  There have been others, totally unrelated to me, saying the same thing that I have said.  Why would I respond to those who want no real communication in the first place?  When I speak here, I do so at moments when I think there may be a chance that I'll be heard fairly, before the ash starts to fall.

M.


This is about me, as a member of a discussion forum, being annoyed by someone intentionally being a troll and a roadblock to forward discussion in a forum.

That is what this is about.

I did not call you a troll to simply throw out names, I called you a troll because you are coming on this thread, whining about how disrespectful the Orthodox are to the Catholics, and refusing to answer direct questions posed to you.

THAT is why I called you a troll.


Had I not already, on this Forum in more than one thread on the Immaculate Conception, spilled much ink on what the Catholic Church means by the Immaculate Conception only to be shot down over and over again, you might have a case.  A simple search will demonstrate you have no case here.

Now I am finished feeding the wolves...

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wolves don't eat straw.

Not only have you not spilled any ink, you haven't expended an electron.

Their is no reason why HandmaidenofGod should go on a wild goose chase after an alleged needle of gold in that large haystack.
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« Reply #343 on: December 19, 2011, 12:22:34 PM »

Although we have had pretty epic clashes in the past where we have both gotten bloody noses, I happen to like E.Maria personally. I dont think a troll is a good label as its my opinion that it does not fit. I would like to hear what was wrong with the podcast as I have heard the same podcast at least 3 times (I happen to be bored at work alot).

If there is nothing wrong with the podcast, say so. It doesn't mean you're ditching Rome. If you are critical of it, I'd like to know how as I thought it was quite good.

PP
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« Reply #344 on: December 19, 2011, 01:07:04 PM »

Is there a transcript for the podcast? I find it difficult to understand !

you might like to read this ! it is the History of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/kimmac.html
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« Reply #345 on: December 19, 2011, 01:07:32 PM »

Although we have had pretty epic clashes in the past where we have both gotten bloody noses, I happen to like E.Maria personally. I dont think a troll is a good label as its my opinion that it does not fit. I would like to hear what was wrong with the podcast as I have heard the same podcast at least 3 times (I happen to be bored at work alot).

If there is nothing wrong with the podcast, say so. It doesn't mean you're ditching Rome. If you are critical of it, I'd like to know how as I thought it was quite good.

PP

Feeling's mutual!!

Here's the deal.  My spiritual father in upstate NY has broadband.  When I go to visit we do things like listen to AFR and some of the podcasts that claim to teach what Orthodoxy teaches as opposed to Rome.  One of those that we've listened to is the podcast listed here.  It is not a good presentation of what the Catholic Church teaches about the stain of original sin.

I am home here in central PA.  I have dial-up and it takes over two hours to download the 23 MBs plus of the podcast which never happens because my phone will drop out before it ever finishes.

So then, you will note that Handmaiden has already said that the podcast is in line with other Orthodox commentators on the subject and listed one of them and a bit of text to go with her comment.

I can tell you that the podcast and the text above in this thread do no begin to have it right when talking about the Catholic teaching on original sin or Immaculate Conception.

What I cannot do is give you a line by line critique of the podcast with a text copy of what was said.

Now I have said even in this thread that the stain of original sin is NOT death...it is NOT the consequences to our material nature...so that the freedom from the stain of original sin does not preclude pain and suffering and death.   The stain of Original Sin in Catholic parlance is a spiritual issue of the soul where there has been a loss of the original good order of the soul [loss of original justice].  That means that there is a darkening of the intellect and weakening of the will [concupiscence].  NOTE: The Catholic Church does not teach, as the protestants do, that concupiscence is the sin itself and that primal sin is lust.

So when the Mother of God becomes a person, at that very moment, she is

1. Fully human [capable of being tempted, capable of feeling pain, being ill, aging, and dying]

2. The eye of her soul is not darkened and her will is not weak.

That is the teaching. 

I have been told by al Misry that is just a load of crap...and I am tired of getting that reaction because what I am telling you is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Now I am a troll because I don't wish to be treated to another slap in the face.

M.

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« Reply #346 on: December 19, 2011, 01:31:05 PM »

Well, I finally got to hear the podcast.  These are the misrepresentations of the Vatican I found:

He says the Vatican issued its dogma in a bull of 1874.  It was 1854.

He says a number of groups hold the IC, the Vatican only being the most prominent.  No other group but the Vatican (including its sedevanctists etc.) holds it, not even the Union of Utrecht

He says the Vatican clearly rejects the idea that it means a virgin birth of the virgin, and it is not connected with the incarnation.  If this is true, the message hasn't trickled down to all the masses, as a look at "Catholicplanet" will reveal.
http://www.catholicplanet.com/virgin/index.htm
And any apologist of the IC will slip, amidst a lot of begging the question, and say that the Incarnation necessitated the IC (though they will usually deny that once it is pointed out to them that that is what they just said).

He is spot on: the problem is the definition of "stain."  The Vatican's definition makes the title "All Holy" a proof text for the IC, while the Orthodox understanding of the Catholic Church does not.

As he says "the Holy Theotokos is not a concept, she is a person."  Potuit, decuit ergo fecit therefore does not apply.
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« Reply #347 on: December 19, 2011, 11:58:54 PM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
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« Reply #348 on: December 20, 2011, 12:05:07 AM »

So I again restate my follow up question:

So why does some legalistic mumbo jumbo need to be done for Christ? If a lineage of purity is not necessary for Mary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

it just seems to me that this is trying to defend the ridiculous.

PP

What are you referring to as legalistic language? Formal language is used to define doctrines for the sake of precision.
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« Reply #349 on: December 20, 2011, 12:21:11 AM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
She could only give Him what she got from them, which is why the IC is false: it teaches she got something else than from her ancestors.
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« Reply #350 on: December 20, 2011, 12:28:11 AM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
She could only give Him what she got from them, which is why the IC is false: it teaches she got something else than from her ancestors.

Something... from God...
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« Reply #351 on: December 20, 2011, 12:49:39 AM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
She could only give Him what she got from them, which is why the IC is false: it teaches she got something else than from her ancestors.

The doctrine does not teach that she inherited her purity from her ancestors. She was created without the stain of sin by God.
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« Reply #352 on: December 20, 2011, 05:24:15 AM »


Quote
Anthony: She received her human nature the same way as we received ours,but she did not receive the guilt of original sin or the damage to human nature and will.

We keep on being told that, according to the Vatican, there is no guilt involved.

The inheritance of original sin does not entail that we are guilty of committing Adam's sin,it entails guilt in the sense that we have participated  in the sin for being descended from Adam,and have inherited the stain and burden of it.

If she received her human nature the same way as we received ours, then she received ancestral sin, a fallen human nature and a gnomic will.

Hence the IC does not comport with the Orthodox teaching from the Scripture through the Catholic Tradition of the Church.

Quote
Anthony: It is an authentic teaching of Catholic tradition,whether or not it is considered to be a teaching from scripture.

Quote
It is against scripture, so it is not an authentic teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

It is not against scripture.

Quote
Of the Vatican it might be, though we get conflicting reports of its "magisterium" authenticating teachings.

Just read the Catechism and Vatican documents for authentic teachings.

The Catholic Church and and Orthodox churches don't just  cull their doctrines from scripture through Catholic tradition,they also teach doctrines that have been passed on from the apostles and ancient theologians which are not found in scripture.

Quote
That the Orthodox Catholic Church does,but her Tradition and scripture are not opposed but one and the same.

That opinion requires logical argumentation to justify it. Protestants can easily point to apparent contradictions between Catholic or Orthodox traditions and scripture,such as the title Father for priests,the veneration of icons and statues of saints,praying to the saints as mediators between us and God,the belief that we can be saved through good works,and the mass as sacrifice.

The Immaculate Conception is not opposed to scripture.

Quote
The Vatican teaches things the Apostles and Fathers never dreamed of, let alone taught, which it made up.  Like the IC.

The

Some Catholic doctrines are confirmed by visitations of Jesus and Mary to saints.
Odd how the Vatican didn't look for confirmation from "visionaries" until it went in schism from us.

Instead of just criticizing the doctrine based on scripture and Greek and Eastern tradition,

Quote
I criticize it on Western Tradition (and common sense):somewhere here I've posted your Bernhardt of Clairveaux's denouncement of it when it first appeared in the West.  I also have criticized its basis on the faulty Latin translation of the Vulgate, cited in Ineffibilis Deus.

The belief in the Immaculate Conception did not first appear in the West during the time of St. Bernard. It was believed by some theologians in the West at least as early as the 3rd century.

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"By the Spirit, Christ is born from the body of his unsullied Mother; by this same Spirit, the Christian is reborn from the womb of holy Church." (Leo I, Sermo 29:1)

The doctrine has been accepted by the Latin Church since the late 1400's and made into a dogma,so why would you criticize it on the basis of  over-ruled objections of a few theologians of the Western Tradition? Theological traditions are discerned by the magisterium.

St. Bernard was not aware of the Greek and Syrian tradition that Mary was free from original sin,and he thought that Rome should have been consulted about the feast.

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Immaculate_Conception

< VII. THE CONTROVERSY
No controversy arose over the Immaculate Conception on the European continent before the twelfth century. The Norman clergy abolished the feast in some monasteries of England where it had been established by the Anglo-Saxon monks. But towards the end of the eleventh century, through the efforts of Anselm the Younger, it was taken up again in several Anglo-Norman establishments. That St. Anselm the Elder reestablished the feast in England is highly improbable, although it was not new to him. He had been made familiar with it as well by the Saxon monks of Canterbury, as by the Greeks with whom he came in contact during his exile in Campania and Apulia (1098-9). The treatise "De Conceptu virginali", usually ascribed to him, was composed by his friend and disciple, the Saxon monk Eadmer of Canterbury (Kellner, op. cit., 446). When the canons of the cathedral of Lyons, who no doubt knew Anselm the Younger, Abbot of Bury St. Edmund's, personally introduced the feast into their choir, after the death of their bishop in 1240, St. Bernard deemed it his duty to publish a protest against this new way of honoring Mary. He addressed to the canons a vehement letter (Epist. clxxiv), in which he reproved them for taking the step upon their own authority and before they had consulted the Holy See. Not knowing that the feast had been celebrated with the rich tradition of the Greek and Syrian Churches regarding the sinlessness of Mary, he asserted that the feast was foreign to the old tradition of the Church. Yet it is evident from the tenor of his language that he had in mind only the active conception or the formation of the flesh, and that the distinction between the active conception, the formation of the body, and its animation by the soul had not yet been drawn. No doubt, when the feast was introduced in England and Normandy, the axiom "decuit, potuit, ergo fecit", the childlike piety and enthusiasm of the simplices building upon revelations and apocryphal legends, had the upper hand. The object of the feast was not clearly determined, no positive theological reasons had been placed in evidence. >


Quote
I also have criticized its basis on the faulty Latin translation of the Vulgate, cited in Ineffibilis Deus.

What is faulty about it?

you should consider whether Mary really appeared to St. Bernadette and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception".

Quote
If even an angel of light preaches to you another Gospel than what the Apostles preached, let it be accused.  That's all I need to consider.

The apparition of Mary didn't preach a different gospel. She advised penance for the sins of the world.
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« Reply #353 on: December 20, 2011, 05:51:15 AM »

Quote
If she received her human nature the same way as we received ours, then she received ancestral sin, a fallen human nature and a gnomic will.

Of course she did. this is why she said "Yes" to the Archangel Gabriel when he appeared to her. She also received the same human nature as ours, as she died a human death. The Orthodox church commemorates this as one of their great feasts.

Quote
It [the IC] is not against scripture.

Care to provide evidence from scripture to support this assertion?

Quote
It was believed by some theologians in the West at least as early as the 3rd century.

Evidence? And when and where did such evidence find its way into the hymnography of the pre-schism church? Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Quote
Just read the Catechism and Vatican documents for authentic teachings.

Which catechism? The IC was only declared as a dogma by the RCC in 1870.





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« Reply #354 on: December 20, 2011, 08:31:10 AM »

Pope Pius IX issued Ineffabilis Deus on 8 December 1854.
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« Reply #355 on: December 20, 2011, 10:29:11 AM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
She could only give Him what she got from them, which is why the IC is false: it teaches she got something else than from her ancestors.
So it's impossible for God to preserve the Blessed Virgin Mary from original sin?
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« Reply #356 on: December 20, 2011, 10:37:54 AM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
She could only give Him what she got from them, which is why the IC is false: it teaches she got something else than from her ancestors.
So it's impossible for God to preserve the Blessed Virgin Mary from original sin?
Before we get to that scholastic question, you have to deal with the fact, expressed in the podcast, that the Holy Theotokos is a person, not a syllogism, a principle or an argument.  So the "potuit" is irrelevant, begging the question of "decuit" misleading. You need a statement on her personal history for the "fecit": sticking "ergo" in there doesn't do it.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
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Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
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« Reply #357 on: December 20, 2011, 10:43:42 AM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
She could only give Him what she got from them, which is why the IC is false: it teaches she got something else than from her ancestors.

Something... from God...
Yes, that's called "deus ex machina," and it makes both poor plays and hideaous theology.
Quote
The Latin phrase deus ex machina comes to English usage from Horace's Ars Poetica, where he instructs poets that they must never resort to a god from the machine to solve their plots. He refers to the conventions of Greek tragedy, where a crane (mekhane) was used to lower actors playing gods onto the stage. The machine referred to in the phrase could be either the crane employed in the task, a calque from the Greek "god from the machine" ("ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός," apò mēkhanḗs theós), or the riser that brought a god up from a trap door. The idea is that the device of said god is entirely artificial or conceived by man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 10:45:28 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,483



« Reply #358 on: December 20, 2011, 11:21:25 AM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
She could only give Him what she got from them, which is why the IC is false: it teaches she got something else than from her ancestors.

The doctrine does not teach that she inherited her purity from her ancestors. She was created without the stain of sin by God.
Exactly the problem.  No human nature for Christ to assume, because God created something else to assUme.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
primuspilus
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Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,360


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #359 on: December 20, 2011, 11:38:56 AM »

If a lineage of pruity is not necessary, why was it necessary for Jesus' sake?

PP

Because he was to receive his human nature from his mother,not from her ancestors.
She could only give Him what she got from them, which is why the IC is false: it teaches she got something else than from her ancestors.

The doctrine does not teach that she inherited her purity from her ancestors. She was created without the stain of sin by God.
Exactly the problem.  No human nature for Christ to assume, because God created something else to assUme.
See I was wondering that. Death is part of our fallen state so without the fallen state......


PP
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
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